well, i can say that the changes actually HELPED me, but since then, its been real hard to keep my first survival up with the rest of them (evasion was prime, now its 2nd, few behind hiding.) the main problem is that stuff that i need to train evasion on is too hard to kill with weapons, and in some cases even hard to kill usin "other methods"...anyone else in this boat too?
Tai
GOUTHROF
VALCER
re: reqs
03/04/2004 12:06 PM CST
agreed they should be able too, but the point is rangers have two they cant use at most which are completey considered thiefish i guess by gms
how come we have like 5 we cant use thats over double every other guild, thats my problem. The four skills left out aint completely rangerly
and not just rangers can use em to circle everyone else can!
we are the ONLY ones who cant, noone else can use stealin, which i think they should be able too if they wanted
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
how come we have like 5 we cant use thats over double every other guild, thats my problem. The four skills left out aint completely rangerly
and not just rangers can use em to circle everyone else can!
we are the ONLY ones who cant, noone else can use stealin, which i think they should be able too if they wanted
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
BARIEN
re: reqs
03/04/2004 02:27 PM CST
>>and not just rangers can use em to circle everyone else can!
>>we are the ONLY ones who cant, noone else can use stealin, which i think they should be able too if they wanted
It would be nice if they would open up some, if not all of the skills that you are not allowed to use to circle. Unfortunately I highly doubt it will happen.
And upon thinking about it I can even think of a reason for first aid. Blow a box, tend it until can get help.
Yes that is not necessarily thiefly, but would help the survival of the said thief. But guess the guild leaders are more concerned about certain skills than the overall survival.
Brabs
Fighting with a bunch of archers in Geni.
"Hey, it's shoot GENI, not shoot GEN!"
Ambassador Genneron, of M'riss
[Arcath] "Public Service Announcement: Please shoot at the archers and not at Arcath"
>>we are the ONLY ones who cant, noone else can use stealin, which i think they should be able too if they wanted
It would be nice if they would open up some, if not all of the skills that you are not allowed to use to circle. Unfortunately I highly doubt it will happen.
And upon thinking about it I can even think of a reason for first aid. Blow a box, tend it until can get help.
Yes that is not necessarily thiefly, but would help the survival of the said thief. But guess the guild leaders are more concerned about certain skills than the overall survival.
Brabs
Fighting with a bunch of archers in Geni.
"Hey, it's shoot GENI, not shoot GEN!"
Ambassador Genneron, of M'riss
[Arcath] "Public Service Announcement: Please shoot at the archers and not at Arcath"
YAMCER
re: reqs
03/04/2004 03:22 PM CST
<< I can even think of a reason for first aid. Blow a box, tend it until can get help>>
No one has said teh skills weren't useful. the aurgument is if these four skills have any merits of defining the thief guild. The guild leaders wanted a set for requirements that get to the soul and base of what they want a thief to be.
That's not saying this is a mold that stamps out every thief. It's the key stone, the foundation, the rough sketch of a thief that these requirements represent.
above and beyond the basics of the circle reqs it's up to you to make your thief what it is... the reqs are just guildlines and it's easy to color outside of them.
Yamcer
"you know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My girlfriend...
No one has said teh skills weren't useful. the aurgument is if these four skills have any merits of defining the thief guild. The guild leaders wanted a set for requirements that get to the soul and base of what they want a thief to be.
That's not saying this is a mold that stamps out every thief. It's the key stone, the foundation, the rough sketch of a thief that these requirements represent.
above and beyond the basics of the circle reqs it's up to you to make your thief what it is... the reqs are just guildlines and it's easy to color outside of them.
Yamcer
"you know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My girlfriend...
VALCER
re: reqs
03/04/2004 03:24 PM CST
why does swimmin define all other guilds tho?
all 8 of those dont define thieves, perhaps 3 or 4 the rest should be our choice having 8 outta 9 that define us means we are exactly and only what they choose us to be
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
all 8 of those dont define thieves, perhaps 3 or 4 the rest should be our choice having 8 outta 9 that define us means we are exactly and only what they choose us to be
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
NKRISS
re: reqs
03/04/2004 03:29 PM CST
>>why does swimmin define all other guilds tho?
I think it's more of the fact that non survival prime guilds don't focus on survivals hardly at all. They recognize the need to learn to survive, but don't care what you train to do it.
Just like your guild doesn't care what instruments you play to learn your lore, just as long as you're training them.
But since you're survival prime, the whole focus of your requirements in on survivals and so they're a lot more specific.
I don't think this should be the case, I think that there are a lot of good reasons for you to need skinning and swimming and first aid. I think every survival aside from scouting should be open for you to circle on. But the GMs seem to think that swimming isn't adequate to appease your guildleaders.
Just like Kalika won't let me circle because I know how to lockpick or steal well.
-Teeklin Tessenoak, Proud Ranger of Elanthia
It's only after we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything.
I think it's more of the fact that non survival prime guilds don't focus on survivals hardly at all. They recognize the need to learn to survive, but don't care what you train to do it.
Just like your guild doesn't care what instruments you play to learn your lore, just as long as you're training them.
But since you're survival prime, the whole focus of your requirements in on survivals and so they're a lot more specific.
I don't think this should be the case, I think that there are a lot of good reasons for you to need skinning and swimming and first aid. I think every survival aside from scouting should be open for you to circle on. But the GMs seem to think that swimming isn't adequate to appease your guildleaders.
Just like Kalika won't let me circle because I know how to lockpick or steal well.
-Teeklin Tessenoak, Proud Ranger of Elanthia
It's only after we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything.
GONIFTHEEF
re: reqs
03/04/2004 03:36 PM CST
If I had been designing Thief requirements I would still keep the top "8" survival format: however, I would have the following:
Of the 8, 4 <not necessarily the top 4> must be Locks, Stealing, Backstab, and Hiding. Those 4 are the cornerstone of the guild imho. Your choice on the rest, which can be stalk,disarm,evasion,skinning, foraging, swimming,escaping,climbing, perception or FA.
Schvartz
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
Of the 8, 4 <not necessarily the top 4> must be Locks, Stealing, Backstab, and Hiding. Those 4 are the cornerstone of the guild imho. Your choice on the rest, which can be stalk,disarm,evasion,skinning, foraging, swimming,escaping,climbing, perception or FA.
Schvartz
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
YAMCER
re: reqs
03/04/2004 03:42 PM CST
Thoes other guilds are survival primary ones... the guild reqs aren't the end all be all of what a guild is, they are teh suggestions of what is it to be the basic 10th circle or 80th circle it's the min the lowest point for each of thoes circles (it's getting a d- on a test, you passed but frankly it's nothing to brag about).
You want to swimm well train swimming you want to be able to tied your own head back on supper... doesn't mean that has a skill thoes should go into the basic make up of all thieves.
Yamcer
"you know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My girlfriend...
You want to swimm well train swimming you want to be able to tied your own head back on supper... doesn't mean that has a skill thoes should go into the basic make up of all thieves.
Yamcer
"you know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My girlfriend...
EDWARDSJP
re: reqs
03/05/2004 06:46 AM CST
Some people want the option to be able to train other skills like swimming, First Aid, etc etc that arent on the list of 9 we have to choose from. I dont think they are asking to redefine the guild or claim that the skills are even inherintly thiefly by nature. The point is why are we limited. Its seems pretty clear 4 of the skills are inherintly thiefly and no one has even argued against having those 4 skills. There does seem to be a good deal of opinion differing on the remaining survival skills. Would it hurt or change our guild to open up the rest of the survival skills as a choice for our circling options? Would having a more diverse guild hurt us? Would having other Thieves training survival skills you choose not to use, for circling, hurt our guild or anyone in general? Would allowing us the option to train other survivals to circle, that we currently cannot, create an imbalance in the game? Would giving us more options for our training styles make us happier as players?
I cant answer these questions for anyone else, but I havent really heard any solid arguments why giving us more options to choose from would make enjoyment as a player, suffer in any way.
But let me not be too proud of my safety. Even a thief in a jail is safe from another thief.
-Khalil Gibran
The greatest Thief in the history of our guild, could just now be walking through the door with the blindfold on.
I cant answer these questions for anyone else, but I havent really heard any solid arguments why giving us more options to choose from would make enjoyment as a player, suffer in any way.
But let me not be too proud of my safety. Even a thief in a jail is safe from another thief.
-Khalil Gibran
The greatest Thief in the history of our guild, could just now be walking through the door with the blindfold on.
YAMCER
re: reqs
03/05/2004 12:15 PM CST
<<Some people want the option to be able to train other skills like swimming, First Aid, etc etc>>
You can train it... you have every means at your disposal to train any and all skills you want. Now the problem is people want that training to mean something to the guild. Diversity is great have all teh diversity you want, but why does that "play style" need to be in teh basic circle reqs... It doesn't.
Circle and Play style are two completely different things unless your circle chase... I train magic. should my play sytle be dictated to the whole guild? No, of corse not. So with minimum circle reqs there is now restriction on any playstyle and there isn't a restriction on diversity. The limits to training are limits put in place by your own volition.
Yamcer
"you know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My girlfriend...
You can train it... you have every means at your disposal to train any and all skills you want. Now the problem is people want that training to mean something to the guild. Diversity is great have all teh diversity you want, but why does that "play style" need to be in teh basic circle reqs... It doesn't.
Circle and Play style are two completely different things unless your circle chase... I train magic. should my play sytle be dictated to the whole guild? No, of corse not. So with minimum circle reqs there is now restriction on any playstyle and there isn't a restriction on diversity. The limits to training are limits put in place by your own volition.
Yamcer
"you know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My girlfriend...
VALCER
re: reqs
03/05/2004 01:14 PM CST
have you noticed your the only one arguing against this yamcer??
the reason it should is because it does for everyone else, i understand you dont like swimmin, alot of people do if it defines a warmie and a barb it should define us just as much, no other guild cant use 4 or 5 different prime skills for theyres
Paladins cen pick any armor
Barbs cen pick any weapon
Rangers can pick all but two, which is what ours should be around
Moonies and barbs cant use like 1 or so and theyre secondary
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
the reason it should is because it does for everyone else, i understand you dont like swimmin, alot of people do if it defines a warmie and a barb it should define us just as much, no other guild cant use 4 or 5 different prime skills for theyres
Paladins cen pick any armor
Barbs cen pick any weapon
Rangers can pick all but two, which is what ours should be around
Moonies and barbs cant use like 1 or so and theyre secondary
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
VALCER
re: reqs
03/05/2004 01:15 PM CST
and i want swimmin so can leave off something i dont feel is thiefly to my TYPE of thief, i want the same diversity as everyone else but im forced to learn specific ones that dont really define a thief, because i am a bloody thief and i dont like em or do em
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
APATHETICSMILE
re: reqs
03/05/2004 01:16 PM CST
it won't harm anyone's training to add swimming to the list of possibilities, so disliking swimming shouldn't even be a concideration in the debate...
...it only stands to help those who have (or are willing) to train their swimming ranks to be inline with the currently included survivals.
...it only stands to help those who have (or are willing) to train their swimming ranks to be inline with the currently included survivals.
GONIFTHEEF
re: reqs
03/05/2004 02:04 PM CST
I'm for including skinning, foraging, FA and swimming and those are not in my highest 10 survivals unless you include escaping. As I believe we can be diverse yet still have the "core" skills required: stealing, hiding, locks and backstab.
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
APATHETICSMILE
re: reqs
03/05/2004 02:08 PM CST
I'm all with Gonif on this one ... so long as you train those core four, then you're thief enough for my tastes ...
... I say let everyone train how they want, there's only TWO survival prime guilds, no point in making one of them less diverse than the other ...
... I say let everyone train how they want, there's only TWO survival prime guilds, no point in making one of them less diverse than the other ...
VALCER
re: reqs
03/05/2004 02:23 PM CST
leave stealin out tho not every thief pickpockets there are burglars and locksmiths and assassins
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
GONIFTHEEF
re: reqs
03/05/2004 02:25 PM CST
we aren't the rogue guild. we're thieves. we steal.
:-)
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
:-)
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
IPKIN
re: reqs
03/05/2004 02:26 PM CST
>leave stealin out tho not every thief pickpockets there are burglars and locksmiths and assassins
I was with you until now. That's never going to happen.
-Ipkin
I was with you until now. That's never going to happen.
-Ipkin
VALCER
re: reqs
03/05/2004 02:26 PM CST
i think they should let us choose em all like they do rangers, id be higher circle as a ranger and my top survivals are all thief req ones
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
APATHETICSMILE
re: reqs
03/05/2004 02:28 PM CST
thieves == stealing
simple as that ... doesn't mean you have to steal from players, but you DID join the thieves guild, you should probably bother to steal something from time to time ;)
simple as that ... doesn't mean you have to steal from players, but you DID join the thieves guild, you should probably bother to steal something from time to time ;)
VALCER
re: reqs
03/05/2004 02:38 PM CST
stealing is only used for pilfering and stealing from people, neither is something every thief or rogue in the world does
and ipkin thats not an accurate statement its already like that i dont use stealing to circle no more, its not one of my 8
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
and ipkin thats not an accurate statement its already like that i dont use stealing to circle no more, its not one of my 8
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
VALCER
re: reqs
03/05/2004 02:44 PM CST
rangers just need 5 survivals anyones they want they dont have to have foragin from the calculator i seen, any more then we should have to have any one kind, let us have the same freedom and pick, there are alot more different kind of thieves then different kind of rangers
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
APATHETICSMILE
re: reqs
03/05/2004 02:44 PM CST
"...stealing is only used for pilfering and stealing from people, neither is something every thief or rogue in the world does"
1) we're not the rogues guild
2) if said person DOESN'T steal or pilfer...why are we refering to him as a THIEF?
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=thief
1) we're not the rogues guild
2) if said person DOESN'T steal or pilfer...why are we refering to him as a THIEF?
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=thief
GONIFTHEEF
re: reqs
03/05/2004 03:01 PM CST
Thief <def> = One who steals or is guilty of theft; one who takes the goods or personal property of another without his knowledge or consent, and without any intention of returning it; one who deprives another of prperty secretly or without open force, as opposed to a robber, who uses open force or violence.
syn. robber. - a thief takes property by stealth; a robber attacks openly and strips by main force. The robber braves the laws; the thief endeavors to evade them.
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
syn. robber. - a thief takes property by stealth; a robber attacks openly and strips by main force. The robber braves the laws; the thief endeavors to evade them.
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
VALCER
re: reqs
03/05/2004 03:11 PM CST
its just a name for the guild, and yes a thief has to steal but he doesnt have to have a skill called stealing he may be a burglar.
1 a : the keeper of a British royal park or forest b : FOREST RANGER
2 : one that ranges
3 a : one of a body of organized armed men who range over a region especially to enforce the law b : a soldier specially trained in close-range fighting and in raiding tactics
Is a ranger rquired to do these things, no
a name for the guild doesnt mean exactly that they just had to use one as a name it could as easy be rogue or locksmith guild
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
1 a : the keeper of a British royal park or forest b : FOREST RANGER
2 : one that ranges
3 a : one of a body of organized armed men who range over a region especially to enforce the law b : a soldier specially trained in close-range fighting and in raiding tactics
Is a ranger rquired to do these things, no
a name for the guild doesnt mean exactly that they just had to use one as a name it could as easy be rogue or locksmith guild
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
VALCER
re: reqs
03/05/2004 03:12 PM CST
as is I dont need stealing and im a thief so obviously we dont have to have it
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
VALCER
re: reqs
03/05/2004 03:13 PM CST
pronunciation: 'gild
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English gilde, from Old Norse gildi payment, guild; akin to Old English gield tribute, guild ?more at GELD
Date: 14th century
: an association of people with similar interests or pursuits; especially : a medieval association of merchants or craftsmen
- guild?ship /'gil(d)-"ship/ noun
Does this mean everyone in the group has the exact same jobs and requirements, being in a thief guild in every book i read, just mean you worked for that group, not everyone in it is a pickpocket, they have guards and assassins who are never sent out to pickpocket, ala our thugs
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English gilde, from Old Norse gildi payment, guild; akin to Old English gield tribute, guild ?more at GELD
Date: 14th century
: an association of people with similar interests or pursuits; especially : a medieval association of merchants or craftsmen
- guild?ship /'gil(d)-"ship/ noun
Does this mean everyone in the group has the exact same jobs and requirements, being in a thief guild in every book i read, just mean you worked for that group, not everyone in it is a pickpocket, they have guards and assassins who are never sent out to pickpocket, ala our thugs
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
GONIFTHEEF
re: reqs
03/05/2004 03:14 PM CST
um, a burglar doesn't just break in and look around or take pictures.... a burglar STEALS.
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
VALCER
re: reqs
03/05/2004 03:41 PM CST
as i said yes stealing, but not our current skill stealing, it requires no stealing skill to break into and pick an object up when noones home, or to kill someone and take theyre purse, and again not all members of a thief guild would even burglarize they have many different jobs
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
IPKIN
re: reqs
03/05/2004 03:50 PM CST
>and ipkin thats not an accurate statement its already like that i dont use stealing to circle no more, its not one of my 8
Yes you do. Just because you have enough already for 70th or 100th or whatever, dosen't mean there isn't a hard stealing req. And it will never go away, so eventually, you'll have to steal to advance. Thats about as accurate an assessment as you're going to get.
-Ipkin
Yes you do. Just because you have enough already for 70th or 100th or whatever, dosen't mean there isn't a hard stealing req. And it will never go away, so eventually, you'll have to steal to advance. Thats about as accurate an assessment as you're going to get.
-Ipkin
VALCER
re: reqs
03/05/2004 04:04 PM CST
perhaps a minute amount all guilds need minute amount in things they never work hardly at the start, im set for awhile in it, by then hopefully a new way to learn it will be out
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
VALCER
re: reqs
03/05/2004 04:06 PM CST
you dont know what will go away one day or not, rangers thought they would always need foragin and skinnin
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
TRIAKOR
re: reqs
03/06/2004 07:40 AM CST
My only problems with the stealing requisite are the same ones everyone knows.
My character is a locksmith, maybe even a rogue, but there arent guild for those
so guess what? thieves are the closest guild to what he is, so that's where he joined.
The second problem is that stealing is still the only skill in the game that WILL either cost you coins or make enemies, or both, to learn.
My character is a locksmith, maybe even a rogue, but there arent guild for those
so guess what? thieves are the closest guild to what he is, so that's where he joined.
The second problem is that stealing is still the only skill in the game that WILL either cost you coins or make enemies, or both, to learn.
