Armifer this is the post I referenced from the stealth folder and I think it would go towards the repair of stealth to make it more playable and give thieves some other damage sources. It's from an older MUCH longer post from last year.

**Renaming of Backstab to Sneak Attack as it will make more sense to broaden its usage. And perhaps you'll see why I ask a bit further down.

**I'd like to see a toggle verb for thieves to make most action verbs like get/put/stow/drop be performed silently with no room messaging if they wish; the contest would be based off of the thieves’ stealth skill vs. the people around him and their perception. If successful, the thief could get items from his pack, or sheath without being seen by the rest of the room. If the thief fails the check, people just see it as a normal action (unless actually using slip). Think of this like trying to hide your spell preps or whatever. But not trying to out us.

**Backstab/Ambush- (this is just how I would see it working better)
The first check is from an average of the attackers’ stealth vs. the targets perception. If that check is passed then it applies a bonus to the attackers’ weapon ranks using the attackers sneak attack skill. Those ranks are then processed against the targets evasion. On a full success, the maneuver will negate all parry and shield ranks of the target leaving only evasion. Upon failure of the initial check, the attack is treated as a normal attack using the attackers’ normal weapon ranks against the targets full defenses. Full success dictates the usage of evasion at 80% of their effective ranks, partial success puts the targets defenses at 90% (for reaction time), and full failure puts the target at 100%.

Note: Messaging for a Dual backstab will pretty much be the damage of a normal BS and then include a second attack to a vital area with the weapon in the off hand. The "dual" effect of it will actually be a regular backstab, with a weapon in the offhand that strikes a second time to a vital area as soon as the other attack is done. That second attack would use the offhand weapon skill and have all penalties associated to it applied for the second strike... including a double RT for a critical miss. Higher skill levels could work the RT down some.

For a non-thief ambushing, similar mechanics are applied but there is no weapon rank boost from sneak attack ranks and partial failure uses 95% of the targets defenses. Full failure still uses 100%.

**I'd also like to see all edges able to backstab (even if it has a restriction on weapon type like a cinqueda) It doesn't have to be pretty... Just let it happen.

Some new dirty fighting...

**Blind- Essentially, you would be spitting, kicking dirt, throwing salt, or gouging at the eyes of your opponent. A bit of an expansion to dirt.
Requires a pouch of dust/contact poison or whatever substance you wish to use to throw into your targets eyes. Full Success uses Evasion at 85%; partial success uses evasion and shield at 95%, and full failure results in evasion and shield at 100%. Unless at melee range where the target can attempt to block the movement from the attacker with their parry skill. If no weapon is held and the attacker is at melee, instead of trying to throw something, they will gouge at the eyes. Uses thrown weapons skill as for the weapon calc or brawling for the unarmed version.

**Coldcock- Uses sneak attack mechanics. Upon success, target is rendered unconscious. A partial success grants a stun to the target, and a failure acts as a regular attack. This move is performed using a blunt weapon such as a sap or cudgel, and can also be performed using the butt of the stock on a heavy or light crossbow or by using the pommel of an edged weapon. If done via pommel/haft/butt of a crossbow, upon failure the attack acts as the normal pummel attack.
*Throat Slit- An edged weapon attack, which would require the Thief to be behind the target. Performed while hiding for a bonus. A coup de grace of sorts. Requires max stealth success to pass check.

**Garrote- An attack performed by the Thief requiring a coil of rope or wire in your hand (from the guild shop), and being behind the target. Performed while hiding for a bonus
Uses normal sneak attack mechanics. Requires a length of rope/chain/wire (perhaps a slick general worn wristlet) to perform the move. Full success uses evasion at 85%, and then a strength check takes place. The initial check is pure brawling vs. evasion, if the attacker wins there is a 5 second pulse before the check continues. At this time there is a brawling check added to the strength check allowing the attacker to check against the targets brawling - 10% to resist and struggle. If the target wins, he’s free. If he loses the check then there is another 5 second pulse and another 10% loss to skills. Checks continue in 5 second pulses until target takes enough damage to go unconscious. Using wire the attacker has a chance to remove the head of the target after 3 pulses. This move can be used unarmed using the same mechanics, but using a choke hold instead of Garrote to render the target unconscious. If the thief does NOT use the special items to garrote their enemy, it defaults to a choke hold

**Slash/Kneecap- Uses sneak attack mechanics. Using the edge of your blade you slice the hamstring of the target taking it to its knees. Can also be used with a blunt weapon used to land a crippling blow to the back of the knee. Pulses every 5 seconds against health if target is standing again after attacked.

**Throat Slit- An edged weapon attack, which would require the Thief to be behind the target. Can be performed while hiding (using sneak attack mechanics similar to Garrote), or while in the open (using normal combat mechanics).

**Attack of opportunity- Can be used with Sneak attack mechanics or brawling. Is used when grappled, the attacker will gouge a finger into a bleeding/broken wound attempting to aggravate the wound opening the wound/causing more damage to the area.

**Disarm- A called attack targeted at a limb, used to make the target less capable in combat. The Thief will attempt to disarm the target, knocking a weapon from his hand. Can be performed while hiding (using sneak attack mechanics), or while in the open (using normal combat mechanics).

**Twine- Effectively able to throw something (bola?) at their target to tangle their feet, making their opponent fall to the ground and be bound at the legs, requiring the target to loose their tangled limbs before standing again. Can be performed while hiding (using sneak attack mechanics), or while in the open (using normal combat mechanics).

**Bind and Gag- An ability that allows the Thief to tie their target at the feet and hands once unconscious or otherwise incapacitated. Primarily used to ensure a safe getaway. Requires the Thief to be in the open.

**Finally be able to make bombs and other devices that can be used in combat or everyday situations. (Smoke bombs, Frag Grenades, Flash Bangs, Mana Traps (to suck all mana from a room momentarily or maybe from a person), Poison Grenades, Timed charges.

-Elec