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> For backstab, yes it's 6-7 to kill, which for just the backstab is 18-21 seconds, but its also another 12-14 to hide or 18-21 to stalk each time.
I agree, backstab is a stealth attack, that means additional RT and extra stealth contests to boot. It is also impossible to rehide at melee if the person you are fighting rivals you in ranks. Perception is obscenely more powerful than stealth, which completely trumps backstab if you lose that contest. This is BASE ranks, if the person is watching you get trumped by someone hundreds of ranks below you.
You don't give nearly enough validation to the enormous difficulty it is to rehide and position yourself for another backstab against an opponent who actually rivals you in ranks.
EMBODIEDCHAOS
DR-RICINUS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/25/2014 02:31 AM CDT
Optimal DPS sometimes doesn't work in conjunction to optimal skill training. If you really want to add hiding RTs to Backstab DPS, that's fine, hiding is required. But there's no reason to try and tack on stalking RTs since it isn't a necessity.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
DR-KODIUS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/25/2014 02:39 AM CDT
Well in a quick test with the same thief with 1200 ranks of 2HE with stuns turned off -
I was seeing 9-11 hits to kill at 4s per SLICE. So 36-44 seconds. The cabalists have really good plate armor, so I'm sure that is giving the larger weapons an edge.
The backstabs (alpha and non-alpha) were all doing more damage than the 2 hander, on average. The 1 second longer RT is what allowed the 2 hander to pull ahead.
Once Eliminate is shaped up, it will be possible to open the alpha backstab up a bit more I think.
As I keep saying, just because you have Backstab doesn't mean it should always outdamage all other attacks and weapon types. Ambushes, maneuvers and even generic attacks all should have a reason for existing. Otherwise you're just a 1-trick pony - and that has to get old after a while?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
I was seeing 9-11 hits to kill at 4s per SLICE. So 36-44 seconds. The cabalists have really good plate armor, so I'm sure that is giving the larger weapons an edge.
The backstabs (alpha and non-alpha) were all doing more damage than the 2 hander, on average. The 1 second longer RT is what allowed the 2 hander to pull ahead.
Once Eliminate is shaped up, it will be possible to open the alpha backstab up a bit more I think.
As I keep saying, just because you have Backstab doesn't mean it should always outdamage all other attacks and weapon types. Ambushes, maneuvers and even generic attacks all should have a reason for existing. Otherwise you're just a 1-trick pony - and that has to get old after a while?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
DR-KODIUS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/25/2014 02:43 AM CDT
>>For backstab, yes it's 6-7 to kill, which for just the backstab is 18-21 seconds, but its also another 12-14 to hide or 18-21 to stalk each time.
>>So that's 45-51 seconds V.S. 36-42.
Stalking is not efficient hunting and MUST be discounted from this comparison.
Therefore you have 45-51 seconds vs 30-35. That is a huge improvement in DPS. And why not skip the last 2-3 backstabs and use something else, like a LUNGE and MANEUVER STABITWITHTHEPOINTYEND? :P
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>>So that's 45-51 seconds V.S. 36-42.
Stalking is not efficient hunting and MUST be discounted from this comparison.
Therefore you have 45-51 seconds vs 30-35. That is a huge improvement in DPS. And why not skip the last 2-3 backstabs and use something else, like a LUNGE and MANEUVER STABITWITHTHEPOINTYEND? :P
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
EMBODIEDCHAOS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/25/2014 02:58 AM CDT
> As I keep saying, just because you have Backstab doesn't mean it should always outdamage all other attacks and weapon types. Ambushes, maneuvers and even generic attacks all should have a reason for existing. Otherwise you're just a 1-trick pony - and that has to get old after a while?
I believe alpha strike by nature is what backstab is, once you come out they would be focused directly on you. Remove the spammable backstab, leave only alpha strike that IGNORES BARRIERS, and reduce the cooldown to like.. 30 seconds? This would remove the 1 trick pony problem you speak of.
Generic attacks exist solely for when you exhaust all other means of killing a person and just want to.. gum them to death.
Maneuvers exist for when you and your buddy are trying to gum each other to death, and no one can land a tooth. SUPLEX
I believe alpha strike by nature is what backstab is, once you come out they would be focused directly on you. Remove the spammable backstab, leave only alpha strike that IGNORES BARRIERS, and reduce the cooldown to like.. 30 seconds? This would remove the 1 trick pony problem you speak of.
Generic attacks exist solely for when you exhaust all other means of killing a person and just want to.. gum them to death.
Maneuvers exist for when you and your buddy are trying to gum each other to death, and no one can land a tooth. SUPLEX
LHALLFIN
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/25/2014 03:00 AM CDT
>Optimal DPS sometimes doesn't work in conjunction to optimal skill training. If you really want to add hiding RTs to Backstab DPS, that's fine, hiding is required. But there's no reason to try and tack on stalking RTs since it isn't a necessity.
I guess I didn't realize the only difference between hiding and stalking is the amount of stealth exp awarded.
Updated math for a no miss fight against something that absolutely will never spot you in hiding: 45-51 seconds V.S. 30-35 seconds.
>As I keep saying, just because you have Backstab doesn't mean it should always outdamage all other attacks and weapon types. Ambushes, maneuvers and even generic attacks all should have a reason for existing. Otherwise you're just a 1-trick pony - and that has to get old after a while?
Maybe it should? Or at least have something going for it that those other attacks don't because it requires more skill, more training, more combat rolls, more RNG than anything else out there. Yes, right now in a perfect fight where everything goes right it has more DPS than a generic attack. That quickly disappears with a miss or two or if you get spotted.
I would love not to be a one-trick pony. I'll also make lots of posts about SE/ME generic attacks, ambushing, and maneuvers when I find the time. Oh and combos too.
; )
I guess I didn't realize the only difference between hiding and stalking is the amount of stealth exp awarded.
Updated math for a no miss fight against something that absolutely will never spot you in hiding: 45-51 seconds V.S. 30-35 seconds.
>As I keep saying, just because you have Backstab doesn't mean it should always outdamage all other attacks and weapon types. Ambushes, maneuvers and even generic attacks all should have a reason for existing. Otherwise you're just a 1-trick pony - and that has to get old after a while?
Maybe it should? Or at least have something going for it that those other attacks don't because it requires more skill, more training, more combat rolls, more RNG than anything else out there. Yes, right now in a perfect fight where everything goes right it has more DPS than a generic attack. That quickly disappears with a miss or two or if you get spotted.
I would love not to be a one-trick pony. I'll also make lots of posts about SE/ME generic attacks, ambushing, and maneuvers when I find the time. Oh and combos too.
; )
DR-KODIUS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/25/2014 11:27 AM CDT
>>I would love not to be a one-trick pony. I'll also make lots of posts about SE/ME generic attacks, ambushing, and maneuvers when I find the time. Oh and combos too
Well that was my reasoning behind the alpha backstab. I figured thieves would go in and do an ambush, then an alpha backstab, then maybe one more, and follow up with a maneuver and a lunge, ultimately killing stuff in about 30 seconds using a wider variety of moves than just BS over and over. I think the problem here is the other attacks don't have enough oomph themselves, or are too unwieldy or not helpful.
All attacks tend to perform poorly if you miss, so I'm not sure that I can justify making BS better just because it could miss. With all the to-hit bonuses applied it will miss less than other attacks.
This is also somewhat of a PvE vs PvP problem. In PvE, critters will rarely be able to spot you if you are hunting normally. At least, in my testing it is always impossible to fail. I do not believe there is a critical miss in hiding once you have sufficient ranks over your opponent?
In PvP you may be fighting someone with 1/3rd your stealth in perception. Against those you'd dominate. It is only against enemies with decent perception or unhider abilities you would have to worry about - and don't you have hiding boosters/autohider abilities to help?
The alpha cooldown IS 30 seconds. Which I think is reasonable for an even PvP fight or a boss fight. It may even let it reset while chain-BSing the same normal enemy...
Why isn't it a good idea to ambush knockout your enemy and THEN alpha backstab them?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Well that was my reasoning behind the alpha backstab. I figured thieves would go in and do an ambush, then an alpha backstab, then maybe one more, and follow up with a maneuver and a lunge, ultimately killing stuff in about 30 seconds using a wider variety of moves than just BS over and over. I think the problem here is the other attacks don't have enough oomph themselves, or are too unwieldy or not helpful.
All attacks tend to perform poorly if you miss, so I'm not sure that I can justify making BS better just because it could miss. With all the to-hit bonuses applied it will miss less than other attacks.
This is also somewhat of a PvE vs PvP problem. In PvE, critters will rarely be able to spot you if you are hunting normally. At least, in my testing it is always impossible to fail. I do not believe there is a critical miss in hiding once you have sufficient ranks over your opponent?
In PvP you may be fighting someone with 1/3rd your stealth in perception. Against those you'd dominate. It is only against enemies with decent perception or unhider abilities you would have to worry about - and don't you have hiding boosters/autohider abilities to help?
The alpha cooldown IS 30 seconds. Which I think is reasonable for an even PvP fight or a boss fight. It may even let it reset while chain-BSing the same normal enemy...
Why isn't it a good idea to ambush knockout your enemy and THEN alpha backstab them?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
LHALLFIN
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/25/2014 11:46 AM CDT
>Why isn't it a good idea to ambush knockout your enemy and THEN alpha backstab them?
Because if its against someone who is at level or a challenge for you, there is no way our only stun which is ambush stun is going to actually stun due to the SvS. Then you've lost the element of surprise, possibly given them the spot effect, lost quite a bit of balance and position, and now need to re-hide which is much harder to do at melee.
So now you're looking at retreating twice, which has a penalty to attacks that you need to wait out as well as the spot effect so you can hide again before doing anything.
Ambushes generally, and especially stun, aren't any good against targets you actually need them against.
A staff member's suggestion was to backstab first and then start ambushing once they're beat up, but if your attacks are already landing to the point you've got them on the ropes due to wounds, whats the point of using the ambushes.
Because if its against someone who is at level or a challenge for you, there is no way our only stun which is ambush stun is going to actually stun due to the SvS. Then you've lost the element of surprise, possibly given them the spot effect, lost quite a bit of balance and position, and now need to re-hide which is much harder to do at melee.
So now you're looking at retreating twice, which has a penalty to attacks that you need to wait out as well as the spot effect so you can hide again before doing anything.
Ambushes generally, and especially stun, aren't any good against targets you actually need them against.
A staff member's suggestion was to backstab first and then start ambushing once they're beat up, but if your attacks are already landing to the point you've got them on the ropes due to wounds, whats the point of using the ambushes.
EMBODIEDCHAOS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/25/2014 12:09 PM CDT
> In PvP you may be fighting someone with 1/3rd your stealth in perception. Against those you'd dominate. It is only against enemies with decent perception or unhider abilities you would have to worry about - and don't you have hiding boosters/autohider abilities to help?
So.. you are saying i should go pick on people with 1/3rd my skills? Noted. No number of hiding boosters will do a single thing against watch, the bonus is just too dominating, especially if my opponent uses a perception buff on top of that.
Ambushes are highly, HIGHLY difficult to hit with compared to backstab, especially ambush stun. Its virtually impossible to hit someone on level with this, or even the level below you. Even if you can hit, ambush stun is power vs fortitude, the stats thieves neglect. The stun would be very short, if it even applied at all. All of this makes ambush stun unusable as an opener to set up for anything, unless you dwarf your opponent in skill by like 25% or more.
So.. you are saying i should go pick on people with 1/3rd my skills? Noted. No number of hiding boosters will do a single thing against watch, the bonus is just too dominating, especially if my opponent uses a perception buff on top of that.
Ambushes are highly, HIGHLY difficult to hit with compared to backstab, especially ambush stun. Its virtually impossible to hit someone on level with this, or even the level below you. Even if you can hit, ambush stun is power vs fortitude, the stats thieves neglect. The stun would be very short, if it even applied at all. All of this makes ambush stun unusable as an opener to set up for anything, unless you dwarf your opponent in skill by like 25% or more.
ALGOTHI
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/25/2014 12:22 PM CDT
>Why isn't it a good idea to ambush knockout your enemy and THEN alpha backstab them?
To explain this a bit better, Ambush Stun is a Power vs Fortitude attack. There was not a huge reason to train Strength previously for a thief, and we have a pretty wide stat investment as is already, so many thieves were getting away with minimum Strength scores.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
To explain this a bit better, Ambush Stun is a Power vs Fortitude attack. There was not a huge reason to train Strength previously for a thief, and we have a pretty wide stat investment as is already, so many thieves were getting away with minimum Strength scores.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
LHALLFIN
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/25/2014 12:53 PM CDT
>To explain this a bit better, Ambush Stun is a Power vs Fortitude attack. There was not a huge reason to train Strength previously for a thief, and we have a pretty wide stat investment as is already, so many thieves were getting away with minimum Strength scores.
I've never actually done minimum strength/stamina and now almost every stat for my Power is at 100.
There's still no way its ever gonna win SvS when I need it to in PvP.
I've said several times that all the other guilds have SvS contests are either tilted extremely heavily in their favor or buff-able in some manner, ambush stun for us is not either of those things.
Yes, you could use ambush choke to debuff their stamina... but again as I've said several times, it does not make enough of a difference because the debuff is so weak, and even our abilities that use Finesse are hard to land against challenging targets because again we have no tilt in our favor and only our khri to buff the SvS roll... so the choke won't probably land very consistently either.
TALEEK
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/25/2014 01:18 PM CDT
I just want to see less hoop jumping and a bit more umph! Pepper this in, try this... Meh.
DR-RICINUS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/25/2014 02:07 PM CDT
>>I've never actually done minimum strength/stamina and now almost every stat for my Power is at 100.
You do realize we can see your stats.
>>I've said several times that all the other guilds have SvS contests are either tilted extremely heavily in their favor
Like how almost all of the ambushes use stats favorable to Thieves?
>>or buff-able in some manner
2 of the 3 stats for almost all of the ambushes are buffable for Thieves.
>>and even our abilities that use Finesse are hard to land against challenging targets because again we have no tilt in our favor and only our khri to buff the SvS roll
You're just plain wrong here.
The problems you've been having have nothing to do with the SvS contest, it has been with how Debilitation ranks determine potency. I've fixed a bug in there, so things should act a little better - or at the very least more consistent.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
You do realize we can see your stats.
>>I've said several times that all the other guilds have SvS contests are either tilted extremely heavily in their favor
Like how almost all of the ambushes use stats favorable to Thieves?
>>or buff-able in some manner
2 of the 3 stats for almost all of the ambushes are buffable for Thieves.
>>and even our abilities that use Finesse are hard to land against challenging targets because again we have no tilt in our favor and only our khri to buff the SvS roll
You're just plain wrong here.
The problems you've been having have nothing to do with the SvS contest, it has been with how Debilitation ranks determine potency. I've fixed a bug in there, so things should act a little better - or at the very least more consistent.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
EMBODIEDCHAOS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/25/2014 02:27 PM CDT
> Like how almost all of the ambushes use stats favorable to Thieves?
> 2 of the 3 stats for almost all of the ambushes are buffable for Thieves.
This will be great when more than 1 or 2 of our ambushes actually do something beneficial. Screen and clout have valid reasons for using them, other than that the ambushes go downhill very fast, ending with choke. Choke is the single handed most useless ambush in thief history. Ignite has to be exempt for now, since naphtha has not been rewritten yet, but it won't be useful until that happens.
> 2 of the 3 stats for almost all of the ambushes are buffable for Thieves.
This will be great when more than 1 or 2 of our ambushes actually do something beneficial. Screen and clout have valid reasons for using them, other than that the ambushes go downhill very fast, ending with choke. Choke is the single handed most useless ambush in thief history. Ignite has to be exempt for now, since naphtha has not been rewritten yet, but it won't be useful until that happens.
LHALLFIN
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/25/2014 03:31 PM CDT
>You do realize we can see your stats.
Yes I do. 2 out of 3 of my stats for Power is at 100. Yes one is behind, but I also have a lot less time played and total ranks than some people.
Until recently all my stats were 80, even.
>Like how almost all of the ambushes use stats favorable to Thieves?
No that's not what I mean, at all.
All other guilds use SvS's that are stats that are favorable to them + they can stat buff + they get an extra tilt on the RNG roll + more mana may or may not boost the SvS roll (I'm never sure on this since I don't actually use magic).
>2 of the 3 stats for almost all of the ambushes are buffable for Thieves.
Except our only stun which is 1 out of 3 (and yes 1 debuff).
>You're just plain wrong here. The problems you've been having have nothing to do with the SvS contest, it has been with how Debilitation ranks determine potency. I've fixed a bug in there, so things should act a little better - or at the very least more consistent.
Well I apologize that I didn't know that there was a bug in the code that was making me win the accuracy contest but lose the SvS contest and it didn't have to do with my or the targets SvS numbers. I guess I should of known and said something...
Thanks for the fix, I'll be sure to give feedback on it.
DR-KODIUS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/25/2014 08:09 PM CDT
>>Ambushes generally, and especially stun, aren't any good against targets you actually need them against.
Stuns reduce a target's balance and reduce their perception. This should allow you to hide again and then backstab with a larger bonus than before? And the added bonus that they cannot take action against you for the duration.
You should have the same incentives to use debilitation abilities as mages and Barbarians do. They use them often. They are fun. They open up new tactics and are beneficial. Your abilities should be similar. If not, then we still have work to do.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Stuns reduce a target's balance and reduce their perception. This should allow you to hide again and then backstab with a larger bonus than before? And the added bonus that they cannot take action against you for the duration.
You should have the same incentives to use debilitation abilities as mages and Barbarians do. They use them often. They are fun. They open up new tactics and are beneficial. Your abilities should be similar. If not, then we still have work to do.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
KROONERMANREVENGE
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 06:33 AM CDT
>You should have the same incentives to use debilitation abilities as mages and Barbarians do.
Well, not really. Magic users prep-cast a debilitation, and while it's preparing can do anything and everything. They can weight the contest with more mana and longer prep, or just snap one off asap. Barbs have instant-effect debilitation abilities without any prep work. All of these work from any engagement range, and require no set up. None of them require at least one empty hand or any weapons or disposable items. Not to mention barbs and some debilitation spells can effect the room.
Thieves have to hide. They have to remain hidden long enough for the RT to drop (so 1-4 seconds), and then have to get to melee range. They have to, if appropriate, have the physical item on hand (weapon for slash, dirt for choke/screen, empty hand for clout, weapon/item for stun). You have to then use the ambush, and get back into hiding. If the opponent isn't stunned, they will watch you, and/or you have to spam retreat to get back out of melee range to hide again, since thieves are 1000% dependent on 'hiding' status for every special attack (snipe, ambush, backstab) which carries a set of penalties in and of itself. Then you have to get back to melee against a target which knows you're there, and even if they're stunned is probably through the stun by the time you get back to melee for a backstab.
Sure, if you could just 'ambush, stun, backstab, done' it would be somewhat equitable. But it's not even comparable. The best comparison I can give you is, imagine if barbarians had to be wearing a roar helm to roar at all. Without it, no roaring is possible. Then imagine they had to be at melee range to roar at anything, and it could only effect one target at a time. Then imagine that roaring had a 'prep' time and a cool down time like maneuvers.
Ambushes require a ton of set up, prep work, and otherwise are about 10 times as work intensive as any other method in the game, for comparatively worse results.
They certainly aren't bad, but it's a joke to say that they're as good as anything else in the game.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
Well, not really. Magic users prep-cast a debilitation, and while it's preparing can do anything and everything. They can weight the contest with more mana and longer prep, or just snap one off asap. Barbs have instant-effect debilitation abilities without any prep work. All of these work from any engagement range, and require no set up. None of them require at least one empty hand or any weapons or disposable items. Not to mention barbs and some debilitation spells can effect the room.
Thieves have to hide. They have to remain hidden long enough for the RT to drop (so 1-4 seconds), and then have to get to melee range. They have to, if appropriate, have the physical item on hand (weapon for slash, dirt for choke/screen, empty hand for clout, weapon/item for stun). You have to then use the ambush, and get back into hiding. If the opponent isn't stunned, they will watch you, and/or you have to spam retreat to get back out of melee range to hide again, since thieves are 1000% dependent on 'hiding' status for every special attack (snipe, ambush, backstab) which carries a set of penalties in and of itself. Then you have to get back to melee against a target which knows you're there, and even if they're stunned is probably through the stun by the time you get back to melee for a backstab.
Sure, if you could just 'ambush, stun, backstab, done' it would be somewhat equitable. But it's not even comparable. The best comparison I can give you is, imagine if barbarians had to be wearing a roar helm to roar at all. Without it, no roaring is possible. Then imagine they had to be at melee range to roar at anything, and it could only effect one target at a time. Then imagine that roaring had a 'prep' time and a cool down time like maneuvers.
Ambushes require a ton of set up, prep work, and otherwise are about 10 times as work intensive as any other method in the game, for comparatively worse results.
They certainly aren't bad, but it's a joke to say that they're as good as anything else in the game.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
DR-KODIUS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 09:45 AM CDT
>>They certainly aren't bad, but it's a joke to say that they're as good as anything else in the game.
Note my cautious wording - same incentives to use...
A thief's ambushes may be harder to get off, but they should provide a tangible benefit. For example, the dirt in the face ambush. Likely not something anyone uses because they feel perception penalties don't matter. That should be fixed.
I like the idea of a charged maneuver at melee that allows you to hide if it is successful. You'd only get to use it once in a fight, but it would give you a new trick aside from retreat spam and hide. And well, since it is charged the enemy would get a few seconds to respond. Just mixing it up, adding new things and counter-things. Makes for a more interesting experience IMO.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Note my cautious wording - same incentives to use...
A thief's ambushes may be harder to get off, but they should provide a tangible benefit. For example, the dirt in the face ambush. Likely not something anyone uses because they feel perception penalties don't matter. That should be fixed.
I like the idea of a charged maneuver at melee that allows you to hide if it is successful. You'd only get to use it once in a fight, but it would give you a new trick aside from retreat spam and hide. And well, since it is charged the enemy would get a few seconds to respond. Just mixing it up, adding new things and counter-things. Makes for a more interesting experience IMO.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
LHALLFIN
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 10:07 AM CDT
>For example, the dirt in the face ambush. Likely not something anyone uses because they feel perception penalties don't matter. That should be fixed.
Actually that one is pretty good, because its the only one that doesn't require hiding, gives the victim a decent random RT, and gives you more effective stealth ranks (by debuffing their perception) for better backstab/ambush rolls (that is still a thing right?).
Mostly it's choke, slash and ignite that seem to be really under performing... and stun (but that might of just been due to that SvS bug and the way sleep breaks often very quickly... both of which that Ric just fixed, so I'm not going to mention it until people have had a bit of a chance to test it out again).
EMBODIEDCHAOS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 02:09 PM CDT
> A thief's ambushes may be harder to get off, but they should provide a tangible benefit. For example, the dirt in the face ambush. Likely not something anyone uses because they feel perception penalties don't matter. That should be fixed.
This ambush is the CLOSEST ambush we have to useful, but it still falls short of all magic based debilitation effects that are out there. That is not including the excessive RT given. Ambush screen gives upwards of 5-6 RT consistently, where all debilitation is 2 RT every single time. While im talking, i vote all dirt ambushes be given a standard missile range and 2 RT to be in line with other debilitation.
Hell.. if you want to compare all things debilitation, lets take a look at all things involved that actually matter. Ambush screen range requires pole or melee (this is the BEST range ambushes have, most require melee), 99.9% of every debilitation spells ive seen can be used from missile without even facing. The core and only important component for all debilitation to work is the SvS contest, unless you are a thief, then you have to hit melee while passing multiple stealth contests and not getting searched, pray to god watch is not being used, and THEN pass ambush calcs to see if you even HIT before the SvS contests are applied, which is nearly impossible to do on level. On top of all that, thief has to deal with the wildly out of proportion RT set for some ambushes, for an effect that is significantly sub-par to any debilitation other guilds would use.
For how much harder thief ambushes are to get off, they should be BETTER than other class debilitations, not worse.
This ambush is the CLOSEST ambush we have to useful, but it still falls short of all magic based debilitation effects that are out there. That is not including the excessive RT given. Ambush screen gives upwards of 5-6 RT consistently, where all debilitation is 2 RT every single time. While im talking, i vote all dirt ambushes be given a standard missile range and 2 RT to be in line with other debilitation.
Hell.. if you want to compare all things debilitation, lets take a look at all things involved that actually matter. Ambush screen range requires pole or melee (this is the BEST range ambushes have, most require melee), 99.9% of every debilitation spells ive seen can be used from missile without even facing. The core and only important component for all debilitation to work is the SvS contest, unless you are a thief, then you have to hit melee while passing multiple stealth contests and not getting searched, pray to god watch is not being used, and THEN pass ambush calcs to see if you even HIT before the SvS contests are applied, which is nearly impossible to do on level. On top of all that, thief has to deal with the wildly out of proportion RT set for some ambushes, for an effect that is significantly sub-par to any debilitation other guilds would use.
For how much harder thief ambushes are to get off, they should be BETTER than other class debilitations, not worse.
DR-RICINUS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 02:28 PM CDT
>>That is not including the excessive RT given. Ambush screen gives upwards of 5-6 RT consistently, where all debilitation is 2 RT every single time.
Ambush screen has a 4-7 second RT if it successfully hides after the debuff, and a 3-6 second RT if the hide fails after the debuff. The reason for the longer RT is because it attempts to hide as part of the action.
>>Hell.. if you want to compare all things debilitation, lets take a look at all things involved that actually matter.
Like comparing the khri aoe debilitations to other magic style debilitations rather than comparing the ambushes which are completely different.
>>and THEN pass ambush calcs to see if you even HIT before the SvS contests are applied
I don't mind removing this part if you folks don't want to learn backstab from ambushes anymore.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
Ambush screen has a 4-7 second RT if it successfully hides after the debuff, and a 3-6 second RT if the hide fails after the debuff. The reason for the longer RT is because it attempts to hide as part of the action.
>>Hell.. if you want to compare all things debilitation, lets take a look at all things involved that actually matter.
Like comparing the khri aoe debilitations to other magic style debilitations rather than comparing the ambushes which are completely different.
>>and THEN pass ambush calcs to see if you even HIT before the SvS contests are applied
I don't mind removing this part if you folks don't want to learn backstab from ambushes anymore.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
JARAGONA
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 02:41 PM CDT
>>I don't mind removing this part if you folks don't want to learn backstab from ambushes anymore.
Noooo! Please don't.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
Noooo! Please don't.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
EMBODIEDCHAOS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 02:53 PM CDT
> Noooo! Please don't.
Ohh quit being a baby just cause you don't wanna change your training method, squanto. :p
Thief ambushes are out of whack because of this.
Ohh quit being a baby just cause you don't wanna change your training method, squanto. :p
Thief ambushes are out of whack because of this.
EMBODIEDCHAOS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 03:08 PM CDT
> Ambush screen has a 4-7 second RT if it successfully hides after the debuff, and a 3-6 second RT if the hide fails after the debuff. The reason for the longer RT is because it attempts to hide as part of the action.
2 RT debil standard + 2 RT rehide would still put ambush screen obscenely over what it should be.
> Like comparing the khri aoe debilitations to other magic style debilitations rather than comparing the ambushes which are completely different.
ambushes are direct target debilitations for the most part, so i would compare it to things like ice patch and branch break. This argument is valid, as both of those spells would outcompare all thief ambushes hands down.
Both guile and prowess are too expensive for the meager benefit they provide, i would like to see them become focused on the enemy you are facing and toned down in cost, thief has no use for aoe debuffs when we only attack 1 enemy at a time.
> I don't mind removing this part if you folks don't want to learn backstab from ambushes anymore.
Since ambushes cost concentration, the most efficient way to learn backstab is by actually backstabbing, i would love it if this calc got removed to put us in line with other debilitations. This does not count for extra effects like restealth after ambush screen, i would not want those to go away. Its the calcs before the SvS/core mechanics that ruin ambushes, the extra calcs should be done after to figure out any added benefits given, like a restealth.
Removing the learning is kind of like not giving any magics other than debilitation for casting magical debilitation spells, seems like a little should be granted.
2 RT debil standard + 2 RT rehide would still put ambush screen obscenely over what it should be.
> Like comparing the khri aoe debilitations to other magic style debilitations rather than comparing the ambushes which are completely different.
ambushes are direct target debilitations for the most part, so i would compare it to things like ice patch and branch break. This argument is valid, as both of those spells would outcompare all thief ambushes hands down.
Both guile and prowess are too expensive for the meager benefit they provide, i would like to see them become focused on the enemy you are facing and toned down in cost, thief has no use for aoe debuffs when we only attack 1 enemy at a time.
> I don't mind removing this part if you folks don't want to learn backstab from ambushes anymore.
Since ambushes cost concentration, the most efficient way to learn backstab is by actually backstabbing, i would love it if this calc got removed to put us in line with other debilitations. This does not count for extra effects like restealth after ambush screen, i would not want those to go away. Its the calcs before the SvS/core mechanics that ruin ambushes, the extra calcs should be done after to figure out any added benefits given, like a restealth.
Removing the learning is kind of like not giving any magics other than debilitation for casting magical debilitation spells, seems like a little should be granted.
KROONERMANREVENGE
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 03:09 PM CDT
>Like comparing the khri aoe debilitations to other magic style debilitations rather than comparing the ambushes which are completely different.
This is a non starter comparison for me, since to use those khri you need several hundred ranks of debilitation first. Since A) no other guild has to do that, B) we're talking about ambushes and training debilitation, that just seems like a bad comparison.
It's also a rough comparison to compare aoe khri debilitation to other single target debilitation since the vastly overwhelming majority of debilitation attacks are single target.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
This is a non starter comparison for me, since to use those khri you need several hundred ranks of debilitation first. Since A) no other guild has to do that, B) we're talking about ambushes and training debilitation, that just seems like a bad comparison.
It's also a rough comparison to compare aoe khri debilitation to other single target debilitation since the vastly overwhelming majority of debilitation attacks are single target.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
YAMCER
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 03:13 PM CDT
<<I don't mind removing this part if you folks don't want to learn backstab from ambushes anymore.>>
I really wonder how many other spells/abilities rely on multiple skill checks. How many debilitation abilities require target magic or weapon skill too?
It might be nice actually with debilitation being a stand alone skill that should power our disablers. As an option maybe have using ambushes from the unhidden state with no backstab requirement/check. It doesn't seem like the extra checks balance any extra potency of the ambushes.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
I really wonder how many other spells/abilities rely on multiple skill checks. How many debilitation abilities require target magic or weapon skill too?
It might be nice actually with debilitation being a stand alone skill that should power our disablers. As an option maybe have using ambushes from the unhidden state with no backstab requirement/check. It doesn't seem like the extra checks balance any extra potency of the ambushes.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
TEVESHSZAT
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 03:35 PM CDT
>>I really wonder how many other spells/abilities rely on multiple skill checks. How many debilitation abilities require target magic or weapon skill too?
It matters what they do. Is there a bonus hit/damage score tied to ambush debilitations?
When a Necro tries to magic-snipe using Vivisection, it's a stealth check for the sniper part and then a TM check for the landing a hit/causing damage part. If a Necro just uses Vivisection without the magic snipe part, it's just a TM check.
IMO it wouldn't be the worst thing ever if Thief debilitations were ambush/backstab/whatever optional, with the stealth check only taking place when stealth actions happen.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
It matters what they do. Is there a bonus hit/damage score tied to ambush debilitations?
When a Necro tries to magic-snipe using Vivisection, it's a stealth check for the sniper part and then a TM check for the landing a hit/causing damage part. If a Necro just uses Vivisection without the magic snipe part, it's just a TM check.
IMO it wouldn't be the worst thing ever if Thief debilitations were ambush/backstab/whatever optional, with the stealth check only taking place when stealth actions happen.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
EMBODIEDCHAOS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 03:39 PM CDT
> When a Necro tries to magic-snipe using Vivisection, it's a stealth check for the sniper part and then a TM check for the landing a hit/causing damage part. If a Necro just uses Vivisection without the magic snipe part, it's just a TM check.
PB this is why people make fun of you, you just rammed a TM comparison into a debilitation conversation. Apples and oranges.
PB this is why people make fun of you, you just rammed a TM comparison into a debilitation conversation. Apples and oranges.
SSLAD
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 05:15 PM CDT
>>I don't mind removing this part if you folks don't want to learn backstab from ambushes anymore.
As long as you enable backstabbing on any critter instead of just bipeds this would be just fine with me.
As long as you enable backstabbing on any critter instead of just bipeds this would be just fine with me.
LHALLFIN
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 06:40 PM CDT
>>>I don't mind removing this part if you folks don't want to learn backstab from ambushes anymore.
>As long as you enable backstabbing on any critter instead of just bipeds this would be just fine with me.
Yes, Please.
>It doesn't seem like the extra checks balance any extra potency of the ambushes.
Very well said.
This was also the point I was trying to make with backstab several posts ago, before this thread became about ambushes.
LHALLFIN
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 10:44 PM CDT
I still think there's something going on with backstab's damage...
I have a lot more skill ranks than your example especially when I'm fully buffed (plunder focus avoid elus strike dark damp) and the mob is fully debuffed (prowess, guile, screen, choke and stun).
And still this is my backstab (this example is an alpha strike):
The blade lands a strong hit (6/22) to the cabalist's back.
Am I hitting a damage cap or something?
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip, you are certain that the arthelun cabalist is something you could wipe the floor with.
If you attacked with a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.
You feel like your whispering has an arthelun cabalist unnerved.
You feel like an arthelun cabalist is fairly distracted by your movements.
Dirt flies into the arthelun cabalist's eyes and clumps up, seriously hindering his vision!
You take advantage of the general confusion and try to slip into a hiding place.
You are fairly confident that your attempt to vanish was not noticed.
Roundtime: 6 sec.
Carefully, you manuever to the side of the arthelun cabalist, and then reveal yourself, throwing a handful of dirt straight at his face!
The arthelun cabalist seems taken by surprise by the cloud of expanding dust!
Swirling brown dust envelops the arthelun cabalist's nose and mouth, and you can't help but smile when you notice him inhale a bit of the debris. The arthelun cabalist coughs and sneezes a few times, but you're certain he will need a bit longer to fully recover from the attack.
You take advantage of the arthelun cabalist's situation and try to slip back into a hiding place.
You are convinced that your vanishing went unobserved.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
The arthelun cabalist is completely surprised by your stealthy maneuver!
You carefully position yourself behind an arthelun cabalist and prepare your attack. When the moment is perfect, you step forward and reveal yourself as you deftly land a solid blow to the back of his skull, stunning him fiercely.
[You're adeptly balanced and in dominating position.]
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Your blade is a little awkward, but usable.
You slip out of concealment and backstab an arthelun cabalist!
< Driving in with naturally fluid movements, you thrust a fuligin nightmaster's blade accented by a blackened moonsilver grip at an arthelun cabalist. An arthelun cabalist attempts to evade, mis-stepping and blundering into the blow.
The blade lands a strong hit (6/22) to the cabalist's back.
[You're winded, adeptly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]
TEVESHSZAT
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/26/2014 10:46 PM CDT
>>PB this is why people make fun of you, you just rammed a TM comparison into a debilitation conversation. Apples and oranges.
You're free to think that, but you're free to be wrong in lots of ways.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
You're free to think that, but you're free to be wrong in lots of ways.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
LOCUTIS1
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/27/2014 03:57 AM CDT
>>You're free to think that, but you're free to be wrong in lots of ways.
As you continue to provide examples of being wrong with all your posts.
Rifkinn
ABSOLON
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/27/2014 04:16 AM CDT
<<As you continue to provide examples of being wrong with all your posts.
Everyone makes mistakes with approximately the same rate, but because of his high post count the absolute number of mistakes he posts are higher. If you, or anyone else posted with as high a frequency as he does your error count would be as high as his is.
I mean, seriously. You guys are acting like he's J'lo or something.
P.S. What he posted here wasn't wrong. He was responding directly to someone who asked if anyone knew of any abilities or spells that required multiple skills for success. He listed one such ability, Vivisection, in direct response to that question, and then had his throat jumped down because as far as I can make out it's the cool thing to do.
Everyone makes mistakes with approximately the same rate, but because of his high post count the absolute number of mistakes he posts are higher. If you, or anyone else posted with as high a frequency as he does your error count would be as high as his is.
I mean, seriously. You guys are acting like he's J'lo or something.
P.S. What he posted here wasn't wrong. He was responding directly to someone who asked if anyone knew of any abilities or spells that required multiple skills for success. He listed one such ability, Vivisection, in direct response to that question, and then had his throat jumped down because as far as I can make out it's the cool thing to do.
TEVESHSZAT
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/27/2014 07:07 AM CDT
>>He was responding directly to someone who asked if anyone knew of any abilities or spells that required multiple skills for success
Ding. Ding. Ding. We have a winner.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Ding. Ding. Ding. We have a winner.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DR-KODIUS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/27/2014 08:11 AM CDT
>>Am I hitting a damage cap or something?
No, the problem is you roll from the floor (base damage + some mods) up to the ceiling (floor + more mods). The floor in this case is close to normal BS damage ceiling because of where the multiplier is. For a normal BS the floor is higher than a thrust ceiling, but still close to it. So on a poor roll you'll do damage similar to the attack-tier below it.
Not really my design, this is just how combat has always worked. Most RPGs have a damage RND and DR's just happens to widen a bit more than I might like when you start adding extremely large damage buffs. Short of a rewrite, it isn't something I can directly address right now. As time goes on I'll consider what might be a better approach given the system's constraints.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
No, the problem is you roll from the floor (base damage + some mods) up to the ceiling (floor + more mods). The floor in this case is close to normal BS damage ceiling because of where the multiplier is. For a normal BS the floor is higher than a thrust ceiling, but still close to it. So on a poor roll you'll do damage similar to the attack-tier below it.
Not really my design, this is just how combat has always worked. Most RPGs have a damage RND and DR's just happens to widen a bit more than I might like when you start adding extremely large damage buffs. Short of a rewrite, it isn't something I can directly address right now. As time goes on I'll consider what might be a better approach given the system's constraints.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
DEFOL
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/27/2014 09:24 AM CDT
I'm curious about one thing. Isn't this whole magic potency argument the same as if paladins would be complaining about not being able to hide very well? As thieves are tertiary magic should we even expect to be very successful against this "at level" potency contest?
<< Since ambushes cost concentration, the most efficient way to learn backstab is by actually backstabbing, i would love it if this calc got removed to put us in line with other debilitations
No reason in going into details but i currently train it all (backstab, stealth, debil) via ambushes and i wouldn't say that it's not efficient at all. But i don't get it, how would this help us? This wouldn't change the fact that we still have pretty crap debilitation ranks. Or what am i missing here?
<< The blade lands a strong hit (6/22) to the cabalist's back.
All that preparation work was totally worth it. Not.
Just curios what would have been the result with just hide/backstab? I'd imagine about the same.
<< Since ambushes cost concentration, the most efficient way to learn backstab is by actually backstabbing, i would love it if this calc got removed to put us in line with other debilitations
No reason in going into details but i currently train it all (backstab, stealth, debil) via ambushes and i wouldn't say that it's not efficient at all. But i don't get it, how would this help us? This wouldn't change the fact that we still have pretty crap debilitation ranks. Or what am i missing here?
<< The blade lands a strong hit (6/22) to the cabalist's back.
All that preparation work was totally worth it. Not.
Just curios what would have been the result with just hide/backstab? I'd imagine about the same.
ALGOTHI
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/27/2014 11:04 AM CDT
>All that preparation work was totally worth it. Not. Just curios what would have been the result with just hide/backstab? I'd imagine about the same.
That would be an interesting test for comparison, 20 full buff/debuf alpha strikes vs 20 baseline alpha strikes. 20 is probably too small a sample size considering all the combat/stealth variables, but it would be a good start.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
That would be an interesting test for comparison, 20 full buff/debuf alpha strikes vs 20 baseline alpha strikes. 20 is probably too small a sample size considering all the combat/stealth variables, but it would be a good start.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
LHALLFIN
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/27/2014 11:42 AM CDT
I did this test three times and got 6 to 8/24 each time, and again this is against a stunned de-buffed "wipe the floor with".
Got depressed and stopped.
The question was "why don't you ambush first and then alpha backstab?"
That was my answer.
EMBODIEDCHAOS
re: Backstab Tweaks
05/27/2014 11:54 AM CDT
> The question was "why don't you ambush first and then alpha backstab?"
My answer to this is that its very inconsistent, when it comes to duration of stun, difficulty, and other guilds abilities to remove the stuns (every magic user alive can obtain anti-stun). If this is an issue of alpha strike being too powerful when combined with other things, then please just remove ambush stun and focus on alpha strike as a true opener intended to be used as a first attack. This is what every thief alive really wants to do with backstab, a true alpha opener.
My answer to this is that its very inconsistent, when it comes to duration of stun, difficulty, and other guilds abilities to remove the stuns (every magic user alive can obtain anti-stun). If this is an issue of alpha strike being too powerful when combined with other things, then please just remove ambush stun and focus on alpha strike as a true opener intended to be used as a first attack. This is what every thief alive really wants to do with backstab, a true alpha opener.
