Guys. I'm the first person to push for thief crap. I think NMUs have been sorely neglected since DR 3.0, and I've been very vocal about it.

But pissing all over the GMs for not adding thieves and barbarians to an already massively bloated project scope that rewrote about half of the entire magic system isn't the way to do it.

They've just spent at least a year pushing this out, and still didn't get everything they wanted. If you're so angry about thief stuff be more proactive in a positive way.

Or just reroll as a magic user. It's what I did.

>Thieves need to get put on the magic system or things will never be equal. Period.

I've said that. A lot. This still isn't the way to go about it.

The system has strengths and weaknesses. But for the true meta-game analysis the weaknesses end up being more significant than the strengths. I think the biggest drawback, to me, is the pure dependence on stats because concentration is a god awful resource to manage.

It's basically just one stat used to determine your power, and then it's flat out a binary yes/no. Either you can run X forever or not at all.

It locks us out of fun systems like sorcery, arcana, target magic, etc. These are huge deals, and being able to access out-guild abilities can't be understated.

In general when a game has such a tiny population of both players and developers, having 3 unique systems performing the same job is bad. Magic (80% of the game) is over-worked. Khri is unique and distinct in function and form from magic; it requires a GM to be 'familiar' with it, and has different metrics for resource management and generation. Same for Barb systems.

But this conflict, and the posts that spawned it, are jealousy related. Magic has been in a constant state of adjustment for literally forever. Thief magic hasn't been touched since BEFORE 3.0. In contrast magic has been rewritten twice since then.

I feel like Thieves are actually in a pretty good spot?

Balance in DR is very asymetric (to be charitable). Awhile back Sendithu, Samsaren, Liurilias and I had a series of spars at an Iron Circle event that went something like this:

1. Liurilias wrecks me without trying that hard (Warmage).
2. Liurilias wrecks Samsaren without trying that hard (lol, Clerics (<3 you, Liuri))
3. Sendithu (Thief) wrecks Liurilias without trying that hard.
4. I wreck Sendithu.

Balance!

Mazrian

>>I don't really consider PvP balance relevant in DR. It's too easy to influence, and too purely dependent on the player vs. the player (not the character vs. the character); you could give my idiot self a level 1000 WM and I'd probably lose to someone a fraction of that level who was a PvP ace. A better comparison is PvE, where the enemy (critters) is static and stupid.

If we consider an equally skilled thief vs. an equally skilled magic user, there's no way the thief ever comes out ahead. Magic as a whole allows too much access to too many systems thieves can't use. The most important is dual damage streams. Anything a thief can do a magic user can do. But a magic user can also use target magic. And AoE damaging magic at that. All while swinging that same sword as a thief. And they've got a half way decent chance of being faster with the sword since they have access to a wider array of easier non-combat skills that the thief is completely unable to train.<<

That's a very narrow way to look at it and I think you're misleading yourself into undervaluing the Thief by excluding scenarios where Thief strengths are really good.

1) When you need to attack something that can really hurt you back, the Thief stealth package is a huge advantage.

2) When you need to do burst damage to a single target, Thief is probably neck and neck with Warmage. Better without question in situations where the target has a ton of magic barriers up.

3) Thieves are well situated to wreck spellcasters with Clout.

Who has more theoretical DPS given optimal circumstances (an opponent that can't maneuver or effectively resist) is what doesn't seem super relevant. A Thief is not going to put out as damage over a large period as a Warmage, but Thief strengths lie in other areas and that's ok.

>>Also, all anyone needs to beat a thief in PVP is perception, and perception ranks are not only free, but the exp cap on perception for creatures is higher than combats because it would be hard for magic users to have to have perception on par with their level. Can't let that happen.<<

Given equal time spent training, a survival tert target will never be able to match perception ranks with a survival prime stealther, let alone a thief with urban bonus and buffs. This is just not a thing that won't be in your favor unless you're outclassed to begin with.

Mazrian

>Given equal time spent training, a survival tert target will never be able to match perception ranks with a survival prime stealther, let alone a thief with urban bonus and buffs. This is just not a thing that won't be in your favor unless you're outclassed to begin with.

It's still easier than it ever has been to train perception. Meanwhile, it's harder than it ever has been to level up a thief. I think you're assuming rank-for-rank is equal as well. backstab < perception, I'd be interested to see that proven wrong.

> It's still easier than it ever has been to train perception. Meanwhile, it's harder than it ever has been to level up a thief. I think you're assuming rank-for-rank is equal as well. backstab < perception, I'd be interested to see that proven wrong.

That is so not true. I had a thief way back when and I recently leveled a new one to about 70.

* Skill gain is faster now than it was then.

* There are more abilities early on. It was originally, what, 15th before you picked up your first combat khri? And that was just an evasion boost.

* Lockpicking is far and away better. Remember when lockpicking and disarming were two different skills? When box drops weren't as plentiful? When you couldn't analyze, harvest, or do multiple traps per box?

* Thievery is still the worst skill in the game to train, but it's better than it was. It's also a soft req now. You can be a thief without

* Remember when entire cities were problematic? When you couldn't enter shops in shard during the night? Before the museum existed?

* Remember stealing before the secondary pool existed? You think the skill is time consuming today...

* Remember when stealing had that crazy critical roll? A level 1 could accidentally succeed against the top players in the game, and a high level could be caught stealing water.

* Remember when thieves only had 14 khri, and not one of them was a stealing buff? Compared to the 23 now + 7 combos.

Thieves were the original hard guild, and they haven't quite grown out of that; however, my opinion is that they are better than they have ever been. Do they have room for improvement? Absolutely, but let's not pretend they're being oppressed.

>>I felt it needed to be included. Paladin kills matter.

Technically I think that happened first. =P

Mazrian

>>I'm just not going to waste your time or mine on a perfect class any more.

Lol, why do you have to be like this when people disagree with you about magic using Thieves?

We agree that stat-based concentration fueling Khri makes for a horrible sub-50th (maybe even higher) experience. Most everyone agrees that training Thievery is one of the worst things in the game (recent changes have made it better, but I still hate shop stealing). I know we have agreed that the guild is lacking in any serious defensive abilities outside of hiding/inviso.

Thieves need work for sure, and have been pushed to the side ever since Ricinus has taken a break (left staff?). After playing several MU guilds to a decent circle I completely see where you are coming from with your complaints about lacking magic, but I just disagree that we are worse off because we don't have access.

Our abilities/guild identity is very niche (stealth), but I feel like we really excel within that niche. I know my Thief was on the top-end of the guild, but I never felt weak with him. I actually had to seek out higher level targets when I would engage in PvP because it got to be flat unfair against other guilds who had equal combats as him. I'm not really sure what having magic would add. BS is hands down the best single target attack (magic or physical) in the game, and there is nothing in the Magic system (offensively) that I would use over it. Having access to the AP barriers would be a nice bonus, but GMs have already said they are being nerfed to the ground with the barrier review, and even asked for suggestions for what kind of barriers we would like to see added to the Thieves guild. The guild has room to grow and gain new Khri/Ambushes, and I think being added to the Magic system to make up for it is just the lazy way out.

The guild needs more development in the direction that we have been taken since 3.1, not start all over.

Do you want ants?

Because this is how we get ants.

-Raesh

"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things

> I'm just not going to waste your time or mine on a perfect class any more.

Sarcasm aside, at least thieves get QOL fixes and the occasional new feature and event. They've had what, a new tunnel, 2 QOL/bug fixes, a thief only event kick off, and multiple stealing tweaks? If you want to talk about "perfect" guilds then let's talk about traders. The last GM post in their forums was March 2015, and they're three years into the promised trader magic.

> Thieves need work for sure, and have been pushed to the side ever since Ricinus has taken a break (left staff?). After playing several MU guilds to a decent circle I completely see where you are coming from with your complaints about lacking magic, but I just disagree that we are worse off because we don't have access.

> The guild needs more development in the direction that we have been taken since 3.1, not start all over.

I'd agree with pretty much all of this. I think it's good to have a unique system (although I think barbarians and thieves should have more overlap).

<< If you're so angry about thief stuff be more proactive in a positive way.

I heard they were working on magic but i've been ignoring the entire process because i thought it wouldn't affect us. Can you explain it to me? I feel like i should be angry about something but i don't understand what's happening here.