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>>CADINALE01: The Thief guild lost it's identity and everything that made it fun 10 years ago.
>>KROONERMANREVENGE: Times change. That all sounds uninteresting to me.
You weren't the sort of person the guild was intended for at that time, then. It used to be the advanced guild, in much the same way Necromancers are now, and its secrets were actually treated like secrets and defended pretty vigorously.
Old Thieves played like their backs were up against the wall because they were. The ones who flaunted the rules often got their clocks cleaned without any significant intervention from actual Thieves.
FUTILITY
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/15/2011 11:01 PM CDT
>You weren't the sort of person the guild was intended for at that time, then. It used to be the advanced guild, in much the same way Necromancers are now, and its secrets were actually treated like secrets and defended pretty vigorously.
Pretty easy to say that, just because I disagree with you, the guild 'was not intended for me'.
Not every guild is so narrowly defined as the Necromancers; I can't figure out how to say this properly, but just because recollection tells you something was true, does not mean it was fun, or interesting, for every player. If it was, it would still be alive today. Player RP does not set the factual tone of a guild unless the GMs write it into lore as such.
My favorite example is 'the code' where empaths and clerics aren't stealing targets. Sure, it's an interesting idea. But it's hardly moral for every thief. And it's vastly insulting to those being 'protected' because it implies they need, or want, it.
I still enjoy the mechanics and the idea of a thief guild. But I cannot stand the players on most; there is too much of a 'you must and will do this my way or I will kill you' for everything, for my tastes. It's a powerplay, and it was way back in the day. I simply do not like being forced into RP with the only choices being my way or die, when most of the enforcers are either high circle enough to require years of catch up, even with efficient ATK scripting, or GM backed.
Frankly, a lot of the old 'secrecy' was silly insider talk. It wasn't hard, or subtle, to figure out 'cookie' IG or on the boards; it's a sophistry to pretend it was all super awesome hardcore RP years ago. It was the same bearly IC crap every guild dealt with, with occasional rock star RP'ers and occasional awesomely trained chars. I've never been either.
I just think there are more ways in heaven and earth to play a thief, and if you can't adapt, the current guild is not intended for you.
Not intended as attacks, I'm just enjoying the discussion and thinking about this. I clearly have a different opinion and tastes than most of the current/past guild people, which is why I don't play a thief any more.
Pretty easy to say that, just because I disagree with you, the guild 'was not intended for me'.
Not every guild is so narrowly defined as the Necromancers; I can't figure out how to say this properly, but just because recollection tells you something was true, does not mean it was fun, or interesting, for every player. If it was, it would still be alive today. Player RP does not set the factual tone of a guild unless the GMs write it into lore as such.
My favorite example is 'the code' where empaths and clerics aren't stealing targets. Sure, it's an interesting idea. But it's hardly moral for every thief. And it's vastly insulting to those being 'protected' because it implies they need, or want, it.
I still enjoy the mechanics and the idea of a thief guild. But I cannot stand the players on most; there is too much of a 'you must and will do this my way or I will kill you' for everything, for my tastes. It's a powerplay, and it was way back in the day. I simply do not like being forced into RP with the only choices being my way or die, when most of the enforcers are either high circle enough to require years of catch up, even with efficient ATK scripting, or GM backed.
Frankly, a lot of the old 'secrecy' was silly insider talk. It wasn't hard, or subtle, to figure out 'cookie' IG or on the boards; it's a sophistry to pretend it was all super awesome hardcore RP years ago. It was the same bearly IC crap every guild dealt with, with occasional rock star RP'ers and occasional awesomely trained chars. I've never been either.
I just think there are more ways in heaven and earth to play a thief, and if you can't adapt, the current guild is not intended for you.
Not intended as attacks, I'm just enjoying the discussion and thinking about this. I clearly have a different opinion and tastes than most of the current/past guild people, which is why I don't play a thief any more.
DARPISECK
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/15/2011 11:59 PM CDT
Interesting thread you got here...
I'll toss my two cents -- there may only be a handful of you out there that know this, but ~10 years ago Segmere was initially rolled out as a thief and was 21st circle back when that was considered big for a thief. I loved every minute of being a thief back then; I had several other characters and had to be in the right mood to play him, but thieves from that era know full well that the guild was "DR in hard mode". The fact that he was initially a thief has probably influenced a lot of his training and some of his attitude in coming to be a legendary cleric who worships Dergati and holds an officer position in a vaguely black-ops-type military unit.
(Case and point: Perception: 4xx, Hiding: 4xx, Disarm: 3xx, Locks: 3xx, Stealing 2xx; total survival 4050 compared to just 3200 magic [112th circle])
I have since rolled up one or two thieves just to screw around with, and the guild imho is a joke today. Just looking at circle requirements should be enough to tell anyone that:
10 years ago -- 4 disarm, 4 locks, 4 hide, 4 stalk, 3 stealing, 3 mech, 3/2 ranks in primary/secondary weapons per circle is what I remember (there were other pretty specific survival reqs and a minimal armor req that I don't recall to the letter as well).
Now -- 4 ranks per in 2 survivals, 3 ranks per in 2 survivals, 2 per in 4 survivals (I think -- I do know that one big difference is you can train whatever survivals you want at the top end, the actual requirements for stealth/boxes/stealing are extremely minimal), 2 per in one weapon, small armor req, small lore req
Reqs from 10 years ago bred some pretty bad-arse characters, today 100th circle thieves are commonplace and pretty much cookie-cutter
Funny thing is, when I get in a mood to steal, I still tend to adhere to many of the old rules -- I considered them and still consider them great in terms of defining how honorable a character is, among other things.
Segmere, Baron's Own Militia
I'll toss my two cents -- there may only be a handful of you out there that know this, but ~10 years ago Segmere was initially rolled out as a thief and was 21st circle back when that was considered big for a thief. I loved every minute of being a thief back then; I had several other characters and had to be in the right mood to play him, but thieves from that era know full well that the guild was "DR in hard mode". The fact that he was initially a thief has probably influenced a lot of his training and some of his attitude in coming to be a legendary cleric who worships Dergati and holds an officer position in a vaguely black-ops-type military unit.
(Case and point: Perception: 4xx, Hiding: 4xx, Disarm: 3xx, Locks: 3xx, Stealing 2xx; total survival 4050 compared to just 3200 magic [112th circle])
I have since rolled up one or two thieves just to screw around with, and the guild imho is a joke today. Just looking at circle requirements should be enough to tell anyone that:
10 years ago -- 4 disarm, 4 locks, 4 hide, 4 stalk, 3 stealing, 3 mech, 3/2 ranks in primary/secondary weapons per circle is what I remember (there were other pretty specific survival reqs and a minimal armor req that I don't recall to the letter as well).
Now -- 4 ranks per in 2 survivals, 3 ranks per in 2 survivals, 2 per in 4 survivals (I think -- I do know that one big difference is you can train whatever survivals you want at the top end, the actual requirements for stealth/boxes/stealing are extremely minimal), 2 per in one weapon, small armor req, small lore req
Reqs from 10 years ago bred some pretty bad-arse characters, today 100th circle thieves are commonplace and pretty much cookie-cutter
Funny thing is, when I get in a mood to steal, I still tend to adhere to many of the old rules -- I considered them and still consider them great in terms of defining how honorable a character is, among other things.
Segmere, Baron's Own Militia
ICON1
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/16/2011 02:52 AM CDT
>My favorite example is 'the code' where empaths and clerics aren't stealing targets. Sure, it's an interesting idea. But it's hardly moral for every thief. And it's vastly insulting to those being 'protected' because it implies they need, or want, it.
The code originated when just being a Thief was a stigma, to give the impression that we weren't all bad, had some morals and as a form of self policing as you might expect to find in any organised crime group. Not everyone stuck to it and those that didn't and were caught, were vilified.
>Reqs from 10 years ago bred some pretty bad-arse characters, today 100th circle thieves are commonplace and pretty much cookie-cutter
Under the old system you would have only needed a survival average of 280 at 100th (3640 ranks). My Thief at 101st circle has a 340 survival average (4766 ranks) and I would say it is far easier to avoid cookie cutter characters with the new reqs.
The code originated when just being a Thief was a stigma, to give the impression that we weren't all bad, had some morals and as a form of self policing as you might expect to find in any organised crime group. Not everyone stuck to it and those that didn't and were caught, were vilified.
>Reqs from 10 years ago bred some pretty bad-arse characters, today 100th circle thieves are commonplace and pretty much cookie-cutter
Under the old system you would have only needed a survival average of 280 at 100th (3640 ranks). My Thief at 101st circle has a 340 survival average (4766 ranks) and I would say it is far easier to avoid cookie cutter characters with the new reqs.
FUTILITY
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/16/2011 12:18 PM CDT
>>I just think there are more ways in heaven and earth to play a thief, and if you can't adapt, the current guild is not intended for you.
You've hit upon why mine is a glorified locksmith. The RP environment at that time made the guild interesting. I'll admit to cringing when certain people said stuff like 'pigeon' and 'cookie,' because that was absolute tripe. Thieves weren't supposed to talk about khris, but calling them 'cookies' was the absolute height of stupidity from my perspective. I just didn't discuss khris outside of the guildhalls and left it at that.
Thieves are just urban-oriented Rangers these days, and the flavor of the guild died with Kalag the Black.
You've hit upon why mine is a glorified locksmith. The RP environment at that time made the guild interesting. I'll admit to cringing when certain people said stuff like 'pigeon' and 'cookie,' because that was absolute tripe. Thieves weren't supposed to talk about khris, but calling them 'cookies' was the absolute height of stupidity from my perspective. I just didn't discuss khris outside of the guildhalls and left it at that.
Thieves are just urban-oriented Rangers these days, and the flavor of the guild died with Kalag the Black.
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/16/2011 04:10 PM CDT
>>and the flavor of the guild died with Kalag the Black.<<
I agree with this.
I agree with this.
DR-MELETE
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/16/2011 04:37 PM CDT
>>>>and the flavor of the guild died with Kalag the Black.<<
>>I agree with this.
The original guild flavor was introduced by players and their interpretations of the Thief guild. Back in the days that people tend to reminisce about, there was very little GM interference. Formerly, the guild had a long history of very active players promoting the code and all of that stuff. There have always been websites revealing every single secret, so it's not like that is a new thing. Thieves that wanted to further the code and their ideas of the Thief guild deliberately sought out noobs to indoctrinate and set up teaching nights, lectures, raids, all kinds of stuff.
Basically, I feel like the Thief guild is what you make of it. If enough people want a revival of the sort of secrecy and daggery type stuff, then get together and make it happen. It was players that made the old flavor, and if you guys miss it, it's players that will have to bring it back.
I'm not trying to foist the responsibility off onto you guys, exactly. I'm saying, more, that you're empowered to really effect attitude changes in your guild.
Even if it doesn't work, the rival factions could certainly make for some very interesting roleplay, which I have always felt is a reward in itself.
Melete
[Turmis] I'm about to shoot beards in the face
>>I agree with this.
The original guild flavor was introduced by players and their interpretations of the Thief guild. Back in the days that people tend to reminisce about, there was very little GM interference. Formerly, the guild had a long history of very active players promoting the code and all of that stuff. There have always been websites revealing every single secret, so it's not like that is a new thing. Thieves that wanted to further the code and their ideas of the Thief guild deliberately sought out noobs to indoctrinate and set up teaching nights, lectures, raids, all kinds of stuff.
Basically, I feel like the Thief guild is what you make of it. If enough people want a revival of the sort of secrecy and daggery type stuff, then get together and make it happen. It was players that made the old flavor, and if you guys miss it, it's players that will have to bring it back.
I'm not trying to foist the responsibility off onto you guys, exactly. I'm saying, more, that you're empowered to really effect attitude changes in your guild.
Even if it doesn't work, the rival factions could certainly make for some very interesting roleplay, which I have always felt is a reward in itself.
Melete
[Turmis] I'm about to shoot beards in the face
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/16/2011 04:40 PM CDT
I concur.
Thieves are just urban-oriented Rangers these days, and the flavor of the guild died with Kalag the Black.
Thieves are just urban-oriented Rangers these days, and the flavor of the guild died with Kalag the Black.
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/16/2011 05:07 PM CDT
it isn't only the players. the atmosphere itself has changed. Much as i enjoy having a s'kra running things, the old idea of the haven was a rough-and-tumble type area where people got together and stole each other silly, <can't DO that now with changes>, hung around opening boxes, and every once in a while got a dagger in the back from the old ogre. and basically it was "us vs the world" in a sense. Yes, there were websites. But most of the time that didn't carry over into the game. And thieves were feared. Now its all about necromancers. Thieves? Ho-hum.
*
Thieves are just urban-oriented Rangers these days, and the flavor of the guild died with Kalag the Black.
*
Thieves are just urban-oriented Rangers these days, and the flavor of the guild died with Kalag the Black.
HERALD42
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/16/2011 05:17 PM CDT
>>and the flavor of the guild died with Kalag the Black.<<
I disagree. The flavor of the guild died with the loss of Soim, Kraelyst, and a handful of others that helped define the Thief player community and encouraged us to hang out with each other.
You typed Roar Help. Good for you!
I disagree. The flavor of the guild died with the loss of Soim, Kraelyst, and a handful of others that helped define the Thief player community and encouraged us to hang out with each other.
You typed Roar Help. Good for you!
DR-RAESH
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/16/2011 07:09 PM CDT
>it isn't only the players. the atmosphere itself has changed. Much as i enjoy having a s'kra running things, the old idea of the haven was a rough-and-tumble type area where people got together and stole each other silly, <can't DO that now with changes>, hung around opening boxes, and every once in a while got a dagger in the back from the old ogre. and basically it was "us vs the world" in a sense. Yes, there were websites. But most of the time that didn't carry over into the game. And thieves were feared. Now its all about necromancers. Thieves? Ho-hum.
It sounds to me like you're supporting Meletes's point entirely.
Aside from the invoking a certain dead horse wrt stealing from other thieves (And really, if you want it to be "us vs the world" but you fear an open profile, we may have a problem), all those changes you described are changes made by players. If you feel like thieves are being forgotten in favor of necromancers, do something about it. Go make people fear you again.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
It sounds to me like you're supporting Meletes's point entirely.
Aside from the invoking a certain dead horse wrt stealing from other thieves (And really, if you want it to be "us vs the world" but you fear an open profile, we may have a problem), all those changes you described are changes made by players. If you feel like thieves are being forgotten in favor of necromancers, do something about it. Go make people fear you again.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
FUTILITY
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/16/2011 07:12 PM CDT
>>Basically, I feel like the Thief guild is what you make of it. If enough people want a revival of the sort of secrecy and daggery type stuff, then get together and make it happen. It was players that made the old flavor, and if you guys miss it, it's players that will have to bring it back.
There aren't enough of the old guard left to re-enact and enforce the rules, unfortunately. The attitudes encapsulated in this thread make it clear that there are a lot of players who don't want to be bound by things like the Code (which, incidentally, pertained to Empaths as a whole because they could not hunt and worked for tips and Clerics who were rezzing, not Clerics in general -- so I'm not sure the Code would even be deemed desirable any more).
There aren't enough of the old guard left to re-enact and enforce the rules, unfortunately. The attitudes encapsulated in this thread make it clear that there are a lot of players who don't want to be bound by things like the Code (which, incidentally, pertained to Empaths as a whole because they could not hunt and worked for tips and Clerics who were rezzing, not Clerics in general -- so I'm not sure the Code would even be deemed desirable any more).
BEVERAGEK
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/16/2011 08:02 PM CDT
Man, this is prime pickings for Roleplay, I can't believe some of you die-hard Thieves aren't jumping on this.
A group of Thieves could band together and make some unofficial(or official) player run organization and go Player-Steal-Crazy based in a certain town. Dress it up too--All of its members wear a specific kind of clothing gimmick, like a black tie around the wrist and call yourselves the Dark Hand.
I can tell you right now, if you go around stealing everybody blind your group will gain notoriety fast.
Also, find some obscure location to make your "hideout". Hideouts make everything better and will further encourage RP by giving adventurers the opportunity to raid your place.
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
A group of Thieves could band together and make some unofficial(or official) player run organization and go Player-Steal-Crazy based in a certain town. Dress it up too--All of its members wear a specific kind of clothing gimmick, like a black tie around the wrist and call yourselves the Dark Hand.
I can tell you right now, if you go around stealing everybody blind your group will gain notoriety fast.
Also, find some obscure location to make your "hideout". Hideouts make everything better and will further encourage RP by giving adventurers the opportunity to raid your place.
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
VEE-REX
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/16/2011 08:32 PM CDT
>> the old idea of the haven was a rough-and-tumble type area where people got together and stole each other silly, <can't DO that now with changes>
This is a blatant lie. Just because YOU have an irrational crazy fear of having your profile set to Open doesn't mean others can't revive the roleplay of Thieves around stealing.
Gonif Syndrome: When someone is sooo afraid of going Open (in fear of being ganked) that their ranting actually makes people want to gank them.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
This is a blatant lie. Just because YOU have an irrational crazy fear of having your profile set to Open doesn't mean others can't revive the roleplay of Thieves around stealing.
Gonif Syndrome: When someone is sooo afraid of going Open (in fear of being ganked) that their ranting actually makes people want to gank them.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
FUTILITY
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/16/2011 09:42 PM CDT
>>I can tell you right now, if you go around stealing everybody blind your group will gain notoriety fast.
It is much, much easier to train Perception past 500 ranks than Stealing.
Which is a roundabout way of saying the days of pick pocketing glory are over for other reasons than PvP stance settings.
It is much, much easier to train Perception past 500 ranks than Stealing.
Which is a roundabout way of saying the days of pick pocketing glory are over for other reasons than PvP stance settings.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/16/2011 09:44 PM CDT
>Man, this is prime pickings for Roleplay, I can't believe some of you die-hard Thieves aren't jumping on this.
Don't worry, it's just because no one wants it that way anymore, apparently. Not even the guys who do?
A strong desire not to do something because I, of all possible people, say I don't like it...is sad. Honestly, if it was that great, go out and make it so.
Don't carbon copy the old ways, update them. Breath life into a flagging RP, and let something new and awesome spawn. Maybe you'll strike a guild war, maybe you'll strike out, but simply folding, and saying 'well, these three guys who don't even play thieves say it sucks, so we can never do it again evars' is disapointing.
I may not have liked the old system. I may actively hate the idea of it coming back. But if it was a thick RP, with lots of interaction, etc...I dunno. At least there was passion in that system, and not this reluctant rose tinted passive aggressive indifference. Honestly, if it was that great, why can't it be reborn? Surely there are enough thieves you can recruit to start something.
Don't worry, it's just because no one wants it that way anymore, apparently. Not even the guys who do?
A strong desire not to do something because I, of all possible people, say I don't like it...is sad. Honestly, if it was that great, go out and make it so.
Don't carbon copy the old ways, update them. Breath life into a flagging RP, and let something new and awesome spawn. Maybe you'll strike a guild war, maybe you'll strike out, but simply folding, and saying 'well, these three guys who don't even play thieves say it sucks, so we can never do it again evars' is disapointing.
I may not have liked the old system. I may actively hate the idea of it coming back. But if it was a thick RP, with lots of interaction, etc...I dunno. At least there was passion in that system, and not this reluctant rose tinted passive aggressive indifference. Honestly, if it was that great, why can't it be reborn? Surely there are enough thieves you can recruit to start something.
NIKPACK
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/17/2011 12:51 AM CDT
<<I may not have liked the old system. I may actively hate the idea of it coming back. But if it was a thick RP, with lots of interaction, etc...I dunno. At least there was passion in that system, and not this reluctant rose tinted passive aggressive indifference. Honestly, if it was that great, why can't it be reborn? Surely there are enough thieves you can recruit to start something.
For all of your grumpiness my friend, that's very sagely advice.
Nikpack
For all of your grumpiness my friend, that's very sagely advice.
Nikpack
ZEFNAR
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/17/2011 03:36 AM CDT
It is great advice. In fact, to use in and get back on topic, lets say a group of us thieves go an threaten/intimidate/abuse/punish these Traders. They'll be afraid of us again, easy.
________________________________________
>>"It's part of the whole unnatural abominations upon Elanthia deal."<<
-Armifer
________________________________________
>>"It's part of the whole unnatural abominations upon Elanthia deal."<<
-Armifer
MITHYLDR
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/17/2011 12:26 PM CDT
>>I can tell you right now, if you go around stealing everybody blind your group will gain notoriety fast.
>It is much, much easier to train Perception past 500 ranks than Stealing.
>Which is a roundabout way of saying the days of pick pocketing glory are over for other reasons than PvP stance settings.
If you're talking about RPing a thief then getting caught isn't that bad because it'll lead to roleplay. If you're talking about pickpocketing for profit and not getting caught, that's just griefing (and if you don't get caught ever, it's not leading to any RP at all). Steal, get caught, get a posse chasing you and get notoriety for a being a thief = great fun for those doing the chasing (and hopefully for you assuming they don't gravecamp/graverob you).
>It is much, much easier to train Perception past 500 ranks than Stealing.
>Which is a roundabout way of saying the days of pick pocketing glory are over for other reasons than PvP stance settings.
If you're talking about RPing a thief then getting caught isn't that bad because it'll lead to roleplay. If you're talking about pickpocketing for profit and not getting caught, that's just griefing (and if you don't get caught ever, it's not leading to any RP at all). Steal, get caught, get a posse chasing you and get notoriety for a being a thief = great fun for those doing the chasing (and hopefully for you assuming they don't gravecamp/graverob you).
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/17/2011 02:32 PM CDT
>>Man, this is prime pickings for Roleplay, I can't believe some of you die-hard Thieves aren't jumping on this.
A group of Thieves could band together and make some unofficial(or official) player run organization and go Player-Steal-Crazy based in a certain town. Dress it up too--All of its members wear a specific kind of clothing gimmick, like a black tie around the wrist and call yourselves the Dark Hand.
I can tell you right now, if you go around stealing everybody blind your group will gain notoriety fast.
Also, find some obscure location to make your "hideout". Hideouts make everything better and will further encourage RP by giving adventurers the opportunity to raid your place.<<<
This whole thing is an A+ idea, especially the hideout.
A group of Thieves could band together and make some unofficial(or official) player run organization and go Player-Steal-Crazy based in a certain town. Dress it up too--All of its members wear a specific kind of clothing gimmick, like a black tie around the wrist and call yourselves the Dark Hand.
I can tell you right now, if you go around stealing everybody blind your group will gain notoriety fast.
Also, find some obscure location to make your "hideout". Hideouts make everything better and will further encourage RP by giving adventurers the opportunity to raid your place.<<<
This whole thing is an A+ idea, especially the hideout.
VEE-REX
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/17/2011 02:35 PM CDT
>>If you're talking about pickpocketing for profit and not getting caught, that's just griefing (and if you don't get caught ever, it's not leading to any RP at all).
This. If someone is honestly looking for roleplay then they won't always choose to steal from a target that is incapable of spotting or touching them. (Insert argument about Mark that has been a dead horse for years)
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
This. If someone is honestly looking for roleplay then they won't always choose to steal from a target that is incapable of spotting or touching them. (Insert argument about Mark that has been a dead horse for years)
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/17/2011 02:41 PM CDT
<<pickpocketing for profit and not getting caught, that's just griefing >>
i think entirely the opposite. you train stealing so as not to get caught. pickpocketing to start a fight if you're higher than the "victim" to me is griefing, whereas pickpocketing where nobody catches you is doing as the guildleader taught years ago. "unseen,they become rich" and all that.
Thieves are just urban-oriented Rangers these days, and the flavor of the guild died with Kalag the Black.
i think entirely the opposite. you train stealing so as not to get caught. pickpocketing to start a fight if you're higher than the "victim" to me is griefing, whereas pickpocketing where nobody catches you is doing as the guildleader taught years ago. "unseen,they become rich" and all that.
Thieves are just urban-oriented Rangers these days, and the flavor of the guild died with Kalag the Black.
NEELD
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/17/2011 05:06 PM CDT
<<(Insert argument about Mark that has been a dead horse for years)
Inserted.
On the RP stuff. Beating a dead horse, but DR is a blank canvas. Paint it as you wish.
Madigan
Inserted.
On the RP stuff. Beating a dead horse, but DR is a blank canvas. Paint it as you wish.
Madigan
DR-RAESH
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/17/2011 06:23 PM CDT
Does RP have to come from failure? Of course not.
However if non-thieves are never aware of the thief because the thief is just that Super Awesome, you're going to have a hard time generating RP from it.
They're different goals, and you just need to figure out what you want and work towards it. There have been some good suggestions for how to stir up thief RP in this thread so far.
Keep in mind that while GM interaction in events is nice, GMs have never driven the bulk of the RP in DR, nor will they ever. Most of it comes from you players, as it should be. And speaking purely for myself here, if there is player RP going on, GM involvement is far more likely. It's a lot easier to decide to go perform for and support a receptive, involved audience than to put on a monkey suit and go around banging cymbals until someone pays attention to me.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
However if non-thieves are never aware of the thief because the thief is just that Super Awesome, you're going to have a hard time generating RP from it.
They're different goals, and you just need to figure out what you want and work towards it. There have been some good suggestions for how to stir up thief RP in this thread so far.
Keep in mind that while GM interaction in events is nice, GMs have never driven the bulk of the RP in DR, nor will they ever. Most of it comes from you players, as it should be. And speaking purely for myself here, if there is player RP going on, GM involvement is far more likely. It's a lot easier to decide to go perform for and support a receptive, involved audience than to put on a monkey suit and go around banging cymbals until someone pays attention to me.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
HERALD42
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/18/2011 12:26 AM CDT
Did thieves get caught before, when the guild's community was alive? Were Thieves regularly at a disadvantage in ranks?
Absolutely yes.
Did we get killed for it?
Sometimes.
Did we steal anyway?
Absolutely yes.
Big K's death caused a few to become disillusioned only as much as the guild's passive support of Shard's occupation. These are issues that individual characters have had, and do not reflect the systemic reasons why the community disappeared. The key was, there was a group of regular players who spent most of their time in the guild with each other because enough people stole risking failure that people would hunt Thieves. These players defined our community, gave us an opportunity to interact with each other as Thieves first and foremost. We were given coaching, guidance, and mentor-ship. Then a few linchpins were pulled out, leaving the only remaining elders primarily more interested in either furthering their own goals via training, or in their respective pretend guilds. A lot of people stopped spending their time there specifically because there was no real benefit to spending time there over training or going to another guildhall in their available time.
Stop being afraid of getting caught. You'll still be successful enough. There are arguably as many resources available to Thieves with the aim of escaping after being caught as there are ones aimed at preventing being caught in the first place -- and the escape resources are a lot more effective tools. Organize, communicate, and go out there and raid, rather than waiting for someone else to take the helm and whining about a dead community.
I may have moved on from the guild and may have little interest in starting completely over again, but I still long for the day that I will hear "Thief!" cried out on the gweth more frequently than I hear comments about Necromancy.
[Edited, as I apparently can't tell the difference between "Their" and "There" while intoxicated without a third attempt at proofreading.]
You typed Roar Help. Good for you!
Absolutely yes.
Did we get killed for it?
Sometimes.
Did we steal anyway?
Absolutely yes.
Big K's death caused a few to become disillusioned only as much as the guild's passive support of Shard's occupation. These are issues that individual characters have had, and do not reflect the systemic reasons why the community disappeared. The key was, there was a group of regular players who spent most of their time in the guild with each other because enough people stole risking failure that people would hunt Thieves. These players defined our community, gave us an opportunity to interact with each other as Thieves first and foremost. We were given coaching, guidance, and mentor-ship. Then a few linchpins were pulled out, leaving the only remaining elders primarily more interested in either furthering their own goals via training, or in their respective pretend guilds. A lot of people stopped spending their time there specifically because there was no real benefit to spending time there over training or going to another guildhall in their available time.
Stop being afraid of getting caught. You'll still be successful enough. There are arguably as many resources available to Thieves with the aim of escaping after being caught as there are ones aimed at preventing being caught in the first place -- and the escape resources are a lot more effective tools. Organize, communicate, and go out there and raid, rather than waiting for someone else to take the helm and whining about a dead community.
I may have moved on from the guild and may have little interest in starting completely over again, but I still long for the day that I will hear "Thief!" cried out on the gweth more frequently than I hear comments about Necromancy.
[Edited, as I apparently can't tell the difference between "Their" and "There" while intoxicated without a third attempt at proofreading.]
You typed Roar Help. Good for you!
SHADOW7988
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/18/2011 10:27 AM CDT
Which one was Big K?
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/18/2011 11:51 AM CDT
>Which one was Big K?
I would assume the original(ish?) Kalag the black, who was killed during/before/after the guild-move event.
The current one is a replacement who took up the title. He was originally V something, wasn't he?
Also, I just assumed this was OOC knowledge. You can probably find it on epedia.
I would assume the original(ish?) Kalag the black, who was killed during/before/after the guild-move event.
The current one is a replacement who took up the title. He was originally V something, wasn't he?
Also, I just assumed this was OOC knowledge. You can probably find it on epedia.
SHADOW7988
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/18/2011 02:04 PM CDT
Wow,
That paragraph now makes prefect sense, for some reason I just haven't heard of Kalag the Black referred as Big K, you know Kalag, or the Black, or Kalag the Black, maybe even Crossing's Guildleader.
Thanks for the help.
And for those that are complaining, there are Thieves that were trying to bring back the Old Code, in a modern way. After several attempts at bringing people out to the guild it didn't work, it was done on different times, and a few occasions it was even on the Calender. There was also attempts at spreading news of the event in game.
Heck I still have the ring from the event, and remember the code words for different places, it was a somewhat cool, though short run attempt at bringing some cohesion to the guild.
As far as bringing fractions, I wouldn't mind it. Currently the guild seems to be made of lots of loners, having several loners, and a few cohesive groups wouldn't be too bad.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
That paragraph now makes prefect sense, for some reason I just haven't heard of Kalag the Black referred as Big K, you know Kalag, or the Black, or Kalag the Black, maybe even Crossing's Guildleader.
Thanks for the help.
And for those that are complaining, there are Thieves that were trying to bring back the Old Code, in a modern way. After several attempts at bringing people out to the guild it didn't work, it was done on different times, and a few occasions it was even on the Calender. There was also attempts at spreading news of the event in game.
Heck I still have the ring from the event, and remember the code words for different places, it was a somewhat cool, though short run attempt at bringing some cohesion to the guild.
As far as bringing fractions, I wouldn't mind it. Currently the guild seems to be made of lots of loners, having several loners, and a few cohesive groups wouldn't be too bad.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
BGUY71
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/18/2011 02:29 PM CDT
>>There aren't enough of the old guard left to re-enact and enforce the rules, unfortunately.
I read this as you wanting someone else to do the leg work of setting up the system for you to follow.
>>The attitudes encapsulated in this thread make it clear that there are a lot of players who don't want to be bound by things like the Code (which, incidentally, pertained to Empaths as a whole because they could not hunt and worked for tips and Clerics who were rezzing, not Clerics in general -- so I'm not sure the Code would even be deemed desirable any more).
Conflicting factions within the Thieves guild seems like it would be rife with some great roleplaying opportunities. I mean, reading this statement it sounds like you only want the Old Code to come back if everyone is compelled/forced to adhere to it.
I read this as you wanting someone else to do the leg work of setting up the system for you to follow.
>>The attitudes encapsulated in this thread make it clear that there are a lot of players who don't want to be bound by things like the Code (which, incidentally, pertained to Empaths as a whole because they could not hunt and worked for tips and Clerics who were rezzing, not Clerics in general -- so I'm not sure the Code would even be deemed desirable any more).
Conflicting factions within the Thieves guild seems like it would be rife with some great roleplaying opportunities. I mean, reading this statement it sounds like you only want the Old Code to come back if everyone is compelled/forced to adhere to it.
HERALD42
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/18/2011 07:41 PM CDT
>That paragraph now makes prefect sense, for some reason I just haven't heard of Kalag the Black referred as Big K, you know Kalag, or the Black, or Kalag the Black, maybe even Crossing's Guildleader.
I'm sorry that referring to the death of "Big K" was too much of a stretch for you in a thread where the only death referenced was that of Kalag the Black, prior Crossing guildleader of the Thief guild. There seems to be an awful amount of angst attributed to the events involving said death, for right and for wrong, and ultimately the event is being blamed as the death of the guild who used that event as the opportunity to take their kickball and go home, complaining years later because they themselves abandoned the guild in all but name before that event began.
I'll try to be more transparent for you next time, as inference doesn't seem to be your strong suit.
You typed Roar Help. Good for you!
I'm sorry that referring to the death of "Big K" was too much of a stretch for you in a thread where the only death referenced was that of Kalag the Black, prior Crossing guildleader of the Thief guild. There seems to be an awful amount of angst attributed to the events involving said death, for right and for wrong, and ultimately the event is being blamed as the death of the guild who used that event as the opportunity to take their kickball and go home, complaining years later because they themselves abandoned the guild in all but name before that event began.
I'll try to be more transparent for you next time, as inference doesn't seem to be your strong suit.
You typed Roar Help. Good for you!
FUTILITY
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/18/2011 07:53 PM CDT
>>I read this as you wanting someone else to do the leg work of setting up the system for you to follow.
My thief's life: log on. Accept container. Start lockpicking script. Finish lockpicking script. Return container. Log off. Incidentally, not all that often as I only infrequently hunt critters that drop boxes. If I had trained box skills on another character, I doubt I'd have kept the Thief activated.
>>Conflicting factions within the Thieves guild seems like it would be rife with some great roleplaying opportunities. I mean, reading this statement it sounds like you only want the Old Code to come back if everyone is compelled/forced to adhere to it.
Not at all. In fact I think it's one of the artifacts of the Guild that can't and really ought not to come back. Empaths can defend themselves and hunt now, and like I said, Clerics who are rezzing, which is almost a moot point.
My thief's life: log on. Accept container. Start lockpicking script. Finish lockpicking script. Return container. Log off. Incidentally, not all that often as I only infrequently hunt critters that drop boxes. If I had trained box skills on another character, I doubt I'd have kept the Thief activated.
>>Conflicting factions within the Thieves guild seems like it would be rife with some great roleplaying opportunities. I mean, reading this statement it sounds like you only want the Old Code to come back if everyone is compelled/forced to adhere to it.
Not at all. In fact I think it's one of the artifacts of the Guild that can't and really ought not to come back. Empaths can defend themselves and hunt now, and like I said, Clerics who are rezzing, which is almost a moot point.
ICON1
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/19/2011 01:13 AM CDT
The biggest problem is that there is no real reason to visit the guild areas other than to circle or get a new ability, unless you are running a steal/bin script.
Population dwindling and spreading as necessessity to find more challenging creatures to hunt has had a big effect also, to the point where it has become a self fulfilling prophecy.
The old guild was better laid out as it was easily accessible from the main thouroughfare, and once inside you pretty much had to pass through the main congregation area.
Other guilds have a reason to congregate - healing, rezzing etc but even they don't fill up like they used to. Only Thieves can hang out at our guild so why sit alone when you could be at the bin/gate in a class? Box popping is provided outside the guild and we no longer have lots of new Thieves wanting stealing classes as they can now shop steal from day 1.
Kalag etc aside I think these are the fundamental reasons why nobody uses the guild anymore.
Population dwindling and spreading as necessessity to find more challenging creatures to hunt has had a big effect also, to the point where it has become a self fulfilling prophecy.
The old guild was better laid out as it was easily accessible from the main thouroughfare, and once inside you pretty much had to pass through the main congregation area.
Other guilds have a reason to congregate - healing, rezzing etc but even they don't fill up like they used to. Only Thieves can hang out at our guild so why sit alone when you could be at the bin/gate in a class? Box popping is provided outside the guild and we no longer have lots of new Thieves wanting stealing classes as they can now shop steal from day 1.
Kalag etc aside I think these are the fundamental reasons why nobody uses the guild anymore.
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/19/2011 07:30 AM CDT
hey, its not an issue of "taking our ball and going home." For myself, I was tired of trying to raise a dead horse.
I got plenty of flak from trying to keep things alive. I got exiled to one of the islands during the event for trying to take down the guard <Zukir> who <presumably> did in the big K. I even tried to restart the same order Kraelyst and others of my generation of thieves originally were part of <the dark court>. Finally, people were tired of hearing about Kalag, so ... I let the tog rest in peace, and went off to plat and started up a Necromancer, who now has close to the same or more skill, at a lower circle, in everything I could do as a thief except stealing, lockpicking, and backstabbing. Plus magic. Plus, if i have a dead horse, I can sorta raise it.... for awhile at least. :-)
So.... I still pop in prime from time to time for events. But my character is retired as a Thief. I'm now just an old locksmith.
Thieves are just urban-oriented Rangers these days, and the flavor of the guild died with Kalag the Black.
I got plenty of flak from trying to keep things alive. I got exiled to one of the islands during the event for trying to take down the guard <Zukir> who <presumably> did in the big K. I even tried to restart the same order Kraelyst and others of my generation of thieves originally were part of <the dark court>. Finally, people were tired of hearing about Kalag, so ... I let the tog rest in peace, and went off to plat and started up a Necromancer, who now has close to the same or more skill, at a lower circle, in everything I could do as a thief except stealing, lockpicking, and backstabbing. Plus magic. Plus, if i have a dead horse, I can sorta raise it.... for awhile at least. :-)
So.... I still pop in prime from time to time for events. But my character is retired as a Thief. I'm now just an old locksmith.
Thieves are just urban-oriented Rangers these days, and the flavor of the guild died with Kalag the Black.
NEELD
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/19/2011 10:24 AM CDT
<<The biggest problem is that there is no real reason to visit the guild areas other than to circle or get a new ability, unless you are running a steal/bin script.
I am going to take us on a tangent, but it is related.
My absolute best memories in the game revolve around being able to always find people at the guilds, for me the paladin guild. That has gone away, and I have struggled with the "why" of it. I do not think it is population so much as environment. Frankly, the world is way, way too big for this level of player base. My opinion.
Madigan
I am going to take us on a tangent, but it is related.
My absolute best memories in the game revolve around being able to always find people at the guilds, for me the paladin guild. That has gone away, and I have struggled with the "why" of it. I do not think it is population so much as environment. Frankly, the world is way, way too big for this level of player base. My opinion.
Madigan
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/19/2011 01:18 PM CDT
<<There aren't enough of the old guard left to re-enact and enforce the rules, unfortunately.>>
<<I read this as you wanting someone else to do the leg work of setting up the system for you to follow.
Coming in to this thread late, but you mailed that on the head. Whoever said that is just looking for excuses to blame someone else for their own lack of effort. Same goes for anyone else who says, "Oh the "big name" people are gone so there's no point to do anything now." Being a leader is tough. Being a follower is simple. Blaming everyone else in the guild for lack of leadership is just a cop-out.
Solomon
<<I read this as you wanting someone else to do the leg work of setting up the system for you to follow.
Coming in to this thread late, but you mailed that on the head. Whoever said that is just looking for excuses to blame someone else for their own lack of effort. Same goes for anyone else who says, "Oh the "big name" people are gone so there's no point to do anything now." Being a leader is tough. Being a follower is simple. Blaming everyone else in the guild for lack of leadership is just a cop-out.
Solomon
DR-ANNWYL
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/19/2011 01:19 PM CDT
Roleplay is what you make it. Don't expect the Game Masters to do the work for you.
As pointed out earlier, certain players created and enforced the code 'back in the good old days'.
That hasn't changed. Time to step up.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/19/2011 01:23 PM CDT
<<Conflicting factions within the Thieves guild seems like it would be rife with some great roleplaying opportunities. I mean, reading this statement it sounds like you only want the Old Code to come back if everyone is compelled/forced to adhere to it.>>
This is actually something we've bandied about upstairs. The concept of mechanics that would allow players to 'ally themselves' with a territory or town and then their 'faction', at various times, based on player- or GM-action, cooperating with, or being at odds with, other factions. Sort of a big "Five Families" feel to it. This would provide a significant sense of identity, options and tasks for "things to do other than pop boxes" (for those who like to claim that's all they're good for), and a wonderful avenue for RP.
Solomon
This is actually something we've bandied about upstairs. The concept of mechanics that would allow players to 'ally themselves' with a territory or town and then their 'faction', at various times, based on player- or GM-action, cooperating with, or being at odds with, other factions. Sort of a big "Five Families" feel to it. This would provide a significant sense of identity, options and tasks for "things to do other than pop boxes" (for those who like to claim that's all they're good for), and a wonderful avenue for RP.
Solomon
VEE-REX
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/19/2011 02:01 PM CDT
>>This is actually something we've bandied about upstairs. The concept of mechanics that would allow players to 'ally themselves' with a territory or town and then their 'faction', at various times, based on player- or GM-action, cooperating with, or being at odds with, other factions. Sort of a big "Five Families" feel to it. This would provide a significant sense of identity, options and tasks for "things to do other than pop boxes" (for those who like to claim that's all they're good for), and a wonderful avenue for RP.
That would be great! I'd love to see something like this.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
That would be great! I'd love to see something like this.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
SIMU-SOLOMON
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/19/2011 02:22 PM CDT
<<That would be great! I'd love to see something like this.>>
We could have one group be the Sharks...one be the Jets...
Everyone could go around snappin' their fingers at each other and breaking out into dance routines...
It would be awesome!
Solomon
We could have one group be the Sharks...one be the Jets...
Everyone could go around snappin' their fingers at each other and breaking out into dance routines...
It would be awesome!
Solomon
DR-ANNWYL
Re: Sandar and Latathi selling Fade weapons in the Plaza
06/19/2011 02:27 PM CDT
Ohh, Vinjince in a dance off. Hmmm.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
