In what part of that crazy brain of yours is murder on the same level as thievery?

<<I'm still amused that stealing from players is both a cornerstone to the guild while also being completely pointless, profit-wise.

<<completely pointless, profit-wise.

<<Dude

<<Are you going to answer this or just ignore it?

What have I ignored? I'm going no further than this, because this is a direct challenge to my credibility. You want this fight, you got it.

Quote. Now.

<<Haha GG. Lets me know that you are too butt hurt to have a discussion and see how retarded you've been in these threads. So my job is done, you can have the last word. Keep posting and crying in vain, noob.

I think anyone reading this will know who ran away from a direct challenge. You insult someone's credibility, you better have the juice to back it up.

Bob wins everyone else loses we can all stop now right? I hear Solomon is turning over the keys to the game as we speak.

---

"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER

... Yeah.

What a maroon. (Hint: I'm not referring to Vinjince.)

-Evran

Bringing sexy back just for you Devan.

I feel empty with this resolution, almost sick.

This almost filled the void that is the conflicts folder right now.

<<In the setting and relative sense of justice vs. personal involvement in disputes and conflict in DR... absolutely.

They are both conflicts, and are both personal, and both involve justice. This is your statement. I agree. I don't think they are on the same level of conflict, same level of personal involvement, or the same type of dispute. This is, perhaps, a difference of opinion, but it is a difference worth noting.

<<And if you're a thief expecting just behavior, I can only LOL all the way home.

I didn't advocate "just behavior", only 'just' mechanics. I'm back to building fences again just to keep you on topic. If this continues I'll just ignore anything that isn't relevant (you'll have to actually think about your responses instead of just hammering out the first thought that comes to mind).

>>I didn't advocate "just behavior", only 'just' mechanics. I'm back to building fences again just to keep you on topic. If this continues I'll just ignore anything that isn't relevant (you'll have to actually think about your responses instead of just hammering out the first thought that comes to mind).

Well, I'm really just trying to see how many times I can get you to keep saying the same things, to validate Evran's theorum. It's working out well so far.

Did you ever read Don Quixote?

Ryken
--
lolbard 3.0

<<Well, I'm really just trying to see how many times I can get you to keep saying the same things

It pays to be consistent; most would call this a virtue, sticking to the same argument as your opponents continue erecting imaginary windmills and engaging them with aplomb.

<<Did you ever read Don Quixote?

Nope, never even heard of it.

I stole from a shop once and didn't get caught, but I still got a soul hit.

I hate mechanics.

So we've established that you're ok with robbing people as much as you like with no repercussions as long as you're not caught. Killing people is too harsh apparently. Would you be ok with someone sniping off your leg if they don't get caught?

Eh, leg shots hinder your hiding, maybe that's too much. How about landing a 'good' hit to your chest or something? Where's the line, you tell us when the conflict level is too high to exact on someone with no repercussions. You're the expert, let me know.

<<In what part of that crazy brain of yours is murder on the same level as thievery?

You are too stuck on the IG difference. Yes, IN GAME, murder and theft are two completely different crimes. But the Open status is an OOC setting based on the actions of you, the player.

Whether you are murdering or stealing from someone, you are still inflicting your conflictual and harmful roleplay on someone else, the latter of which you don't even need their consent to do. Yes, one harms a character's life and the other harms a character's wealth, but harm is harm, and either way, it's all still text. You die, you depart, you go on with things.

Whether you get caught or not, your personal decision to type >steal <player> every time you find a mark to rob indicates that you are ready and willing to engage in conflict should things not go as planned. That's what the PvP stances are about. The way you are playing is PvP Open, and if you don't agree with it, change how you play. There's no real exp or monetary benefit to player stealing, so you have two choices: 1) change your roleplay and stop stealing, or 2) continue the roleplay and instead change your attitude as a player. That's it.

Policy won't change, so the only thing left to change is yourself. Roll with it or don't, but stop trying to play the martyr. Absolutely nothing will come of it.

>I didn't bring up might makes right, that was a point offered as anecdote in response to my saying that open gets you killed.

Yes you did, to me.

-Reverend Gidien

---

"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."

~Miyamoto Musashi

Hi Bobthesnob,

I saw this really gory train wreck and somehow it made me want to post in this thread.

Lost in all the textwalls of your sweet sweet tears was the fact that you actually presented an itemized list in your OP. Allow me to retort:

>>First, the obvious objections to reverting the system:

I should note that the items you list as objections are not actually objections. They're not even sentences. So I guess I'll only address a few of the more coherent remarks.

>>3. Conflict/conflict resolution.
- This is, in my opinion, a red herring. First, if you don't get caught stealing, what possible right should anyone have to exact retribution, even indirectly? How could they possibly know who actually stole from them?

As has already been pointed out, you can't tell if anyone saw you or sensed you steal. So there goes that argument because it's YOU who has no idea whether you were caught or not. Of course, if the important thing is just not to get caught, I'll be more than happy to just snipe you and slink away.

>>4. Stealing means you want to engage in PVP.
- Afraid not.

Stealing is PvP. <rainbow>THE MOAR YOU KNOW</rainbow>

>>5. Stealing is just plain mean.
The thieves guild is a choice, a rather difficult choice even to make much less stick with.

You make a very good point here, rerolling is an increasingly attractive option, is it not?

Stealing is only the first to be implemented of SEVERAL planned actions that will set you to Open because it is an inherently hostile action against other players.

>> Thieves didn't invent the skill, nor did they invent their own guild. This is our chosen profession from among the options, and we gladly accept the hardships because the price is justified by the rewards, or at least it used to be.

Remember, rerolling is still on the table.

Personally, stealing is well worth it for me, as in the 16 months since I reactivated I've been killed twice for stealing, maybe half a dozen times for being Open, and made well over 1000 plat from pockets.

Oh, and you said you were killed for being Open, and not for being annoying. Well now that we've all seen repeatedly and at length just how non-annoying you are constantly being, I am truly amazed at why anyone would want to kill your text.

<<Would you be ok with someone sniping off your leg if they don't get caught?

I've already answered this. twice.

<<Sigh. Just... sigh.

I referenced the book right above this. Ever heard of tongue and cheek?

<<You are too stuck on the IG difference. Yes, IN GAME, murder and theft are two completely different crimes. But the Open status is an OOC setting based on the actions of you, the player.

So open status has no affect IG?

<<Bob, you want to steal without repercussions if you don't get caught.

You're catching on.

<<You want your risk to end after you succeed in the contest the game designers constructed.

This IS my argument, I'm actually quite happy you have found it. Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. Everyone please address this argument.

<<However, the game designers have decided that stealing from characters should be risky behavior, regardless of the contested skills, and they have made it risky by forcing you to OPEN if you steal from characters.

"It'll never change, get over it". I know, my opinion is that it shouldn't be this way, regardless of whether it will change or not.

<<Policy won't change, so the only thing left to change is yourself. Roll with it or don't, but stop trying to play the martyr. Absolutely nothing will come of it.

Once again, irrelevant, I'm defending my position at this point.

<<Yes you did, to me.

Then my entire argument falls on it's face. (sarcasm again)

<<as far as the harm done to the player of the victim, they're about the same.

This boils down to a simple difference of opinion. I think stealing is pretty frivolous, given the myriad ways to protect yourself and my personal experiences of both death and theft.

<<You make a very good point here, rerolling is an increasingly attractive option, is it not?

Give up and go home, this is your suggestion?

<<Just for clarity, Quixote's windmills were real. But I digress, as has this thread.

I know, my argument is a real windmill. I have already been told this will never change, therefore it is not a real castle/dragon/knight. My point was that many of the people posting aren't even engaging the real windmill, they are erecting their own imaginary windmills, and attacking them. Get the reference now?

<<Hey, that's what I've been saying

This is true, but only a few people are saying it's an opinion difference, most claim I'm dead wrong and it's demonstrable. I remain skeptical of this claim.

I truly believe if you just let go a bit you'll enjoy yourself more. Next time someone shoots you, don't let your PLAYER go all investigator mode. Think like a 57th circle thief.

You've been arrested; what, 80-100+ times in your career? You're a known scumbag. All of us in the thieves guild are. People have a reason to shoot you. You said it was a random guy. Your PLAYER instantly thought 'hey it's a griefer'. Why can't your CHARACTER think 'damn, I shouldn't have taken that last set of gloves from Tembeg 2 days ago, I think his brother just shot me in the eye'. Who cares if you didn't just get caught. You're a thief, you're known as a thief. People shoot thieves.

Honestly, we're lucky we're not operating under the social outrage system. What we have currently is like an extremely, extremely watered down version of the SO system. So you didn't get caught that single time. It doesn't matter, you've been caught 80 other times, the general citizenship knows you. Maybe Milgrym got pissed the 30th time he caught you stealing a dagger and hired an assassin. Think like a 57th circle thief.

There is always an IC reason to shoot you. This is why it's not a punishment for a specific crime. It's an OOC method of representing the type of character you are, and the reputation you have, as a member of the thieves guild.

We're all being punk'd

<<We're all being punk'd

I wish I could claim I was a troll, this would have been an epic run. Alas, I am not.

<<I think the way Bob is trying to control the dialogue here and have things only be argued on his terms (and the frustration he gets when people don't agree to just debate things how he wants them to be debated)

Not on my terms, but in reference to arguments I actually make. Is that too much to ask?

<<Yes, now I get that you miss-referenced de Cervantes.

On purpose.

<<But again, I digress.

You can't digress unless you had another point to begin with. The first point can't be a digress.

<<It's an OOC method of representing the type of character you are, and the reputation you have, as a member of the thieves guild.

It is inseparable from the IG environment, which is why I disagree with it.

<<Honestly, we're lucky we're not operating under the social outrage system. What we have currently is like an extremely, extremely watered down version of the SO system. So you didn't get caught that single time. It doesn't matter, you've been caught 80 other times, the general citizenship knows you. Maybe Milgrym got pissed the 30th time he caught you stealing a dagger and hired an assassin. Think like a 57th circle thief.

Sounds arguing that we should be set to open for stealing from shops. Try getting caught in Dirge or the clans, notice that justice is swift, but finite. Fines everywhere else. The system is in place, but you aren't punished if you aren't caught.

Either way, I think I'll accept this argument as sufficient. I haven't gotten a thing done on Scrounger in two days, and I'd rather just get back to it. I want to thank the moderators for being far more gracious than I deserved, and all of the posters for their patience.

Except that your analogy would be driving recklessly is okay as long as no one catches you at it.

-Evran

Bringing sexy back just for you Devan.

<<Sounds arguing that we should be set to open for stealing from shops.

In an ideal world, yes! We're not in an ideal world though; so we're getting a watered down, neutered version of the SO. I think it's a pretty reasonable deal. I could get behind stealing from shops setting you open, but I think most people would prefer this way. It's a fair compromise because it lets the thief have control over when he's open. He's not required to in order to circle. We're a little more easy-mode then necromancers.

Your clan example is a great point. They cut your arm or head off once, they're government officials they stop at that point, punishing you for that specific crime. Milgrym just saw you stealing from his shop for the 27th time this month, what IC reason does he have not to have you whacked....alot. You did a really good job here of showing why open pvp stance isn't a punishment for a specific crime like a single death would be. I feel like we're making leaps and bounds right now. I'm half chubbed, I don't know about you.


<<It is inseparable from the IG environment

That's actually almost exactly it. It's the games mechanics trying to reflect your characters personality/reputation which is how you the player are playing that character. Thieves should expect to get shot sometimes, not always by people we know. We're bad people. A lot of players are going to cry foul and waste GM time about it. This is a way for the mechanics to let you know, 'hey you're a thief. People are going to kill you. Life's tough'