And your request is denied.

Just because you can't handle not seeing someone when they re-hide on you, doesn't mean another timer should come and nerf what we just got.

and if you're complaining about afk scripts that hide and rehide for hiding exp, REPORT THEM FOR AFK SCRIPTING.


Sothios Clan-Csencsits
Aesry Locksmith Union Representative

<<Except traders, I think they may be the only guild that doesn't have an ability/spell able to directly counteract hiding.

I know this is the conflicts folder, but I'll attempt to seek advice anyway. What ability/spell do rangers have to counteract hiding?

---

"...you do not deserve Ability X just because another guild received it." -Armifer

"Sabbra Caddabra" your skill/title/ability is now mine.

>I know this is the conflicts folder, but I'll attempt to seek advice anyway. What ability/spell do rangers have to counteract hiding?

The ranger bonus naturally boosts perception, and the wolf scent spell boosts it as a secondary effect.

>So do ranks in perceptions. Are we saying traders don't have perception ranks?

No, traders don't have a way to boost their perception as one of their guild abilities. If boosting perception doesn't count as a defense against hiding, then very few guilds have a defense against hiding.

>Anyway, I meant more along the lines of Chain Lightning or that thief "I can toss dust everywhere and ruin your hiding even though you'd think if it were dusty it'd be even harder to see hidden people" ability.

Barbarians have whirlwind, warrior mages have frb, tks, and shockwave, moon mages have TKS, bard enchantes still work. I think for the other guilds you need to be able to see the hider.

I think most people see hiding defense as perception, and there you have paladins with clarity, clerics with revelation, wms with earth sense, thieves with khri sight, bards with eye of kertigen, barbarians have dance eagle (weak), rangers have bonus + WS (also on the weak side), moon mages have clear vision, empaths have perceive health (different, but infallible), which just leaves traders out in the cold.

<<Barbarians have whirlwind, warrior mages have frb, tks, and shockwave, moon mages have TKS, bard enchantes still work. I think for the other guilds you need to be able to see the hider.

Yeah, I find a CV rune works insanely better than any WS I've ever cast. I'd love to be able to affect someone in hiding that I can't see (ala: chain lightning, or tossing dirt) though.

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"...you do not deserve Ability X just because another guild received it." -Armifer

"Sabbra Caddabra" your skill/title/ability is now mine.

<<What ability/spell do rangers have to counteract hiding?>>

I had assumed that perception prime skill-set and access to stackable CV/WS was pretty much as good as it gets, in terms of mundane anti-stealth capabilities. You're right though, it's no AOE.

I think you may be confused about Ambush Screen aka the dirt of doom you refer to. It only works at pole or melee range, so generally you have to already be able to see someone in order to use it. Given that we can act on hidden now...it is not particularly useful in the same way as before (as a safer substitute for pointing).

<<umm.. last I checked ambush SCREEN doesn't need you to see someone.. it needs them to be a pole or closer to you.. as Screen pulls hiders in combat with you out of hiding and lets you go into hiding..

These are things I did not know. Thanks for the info. I love thieves now. They have all kinds of awesome stuff.

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"...you do not deserve Ability X just because another guild received it." -Armifer

"Sabbra Caddabra" your skill/title/ability is now mine.

>>That's not to mention the other tools available in game, Garden Vision enchantments and thug powders, both items that can instantly nullify hiding or invisibility.

Garden Vision doesn't do anything except tell you who is there and provides an RT. It's in no way comparable to thug powders (which have their own set of issues).

If anyone actually believes perception learning is somehow on par or better than stealth learning right now, they have obviously found a way to use samatak.

Right now if a survival primary character is failing stealth against a non-survival primary character or someone that isn't a moon mage near their circle, and that person isn't using a CJ, then that survival prime character either doesn't know what the hell they are doing, or that person just sits in a corner and juggles all day so just shoot them in the face.

I am --- Navak

<<I know this is the conflicts folder, but I'll attempt to seek advice anyway. What ability/spell do rangers have to counteract hiding?>>

grown wolves pull you from hiding and put you on your back. Irregardless of skill. They don't do this to thier own rangers. But do to others.



<<If nothing else, maybe some Magic Using guilds will now feel the joys of "You cannot steal here.", at least for a while.--Solomon>>

Alright, I'm going to respond here not because this should be a conflict, but because you posted it here originally. I have no problem discussing the problems with stealth/perception scaling in the game. I don't think a hiding timer is the way to solve it, and I have made suggestions in various folders, including thieves, of design possibilities that would help the Search function.

I would like to see passive perception boosted to full ranks, and I'd like a Search <person> ability that added the Watch bonus. Those two changes alone would be a heavy slam on stealth primary guilds, but I think they would help scale. Again, I have made this suggestion various times, so I'm not sure where your accusation of "stealth" bias comes in, other than as an ad hominem attack based on your incomplete assessment of my character history.

I've also made a suggestion that all attacks on hidden characters should take a hit to accuracy. My point here was to make it harder for khri spot, and perception prime guilds, to light people up without any risk. If attacks on hidden only used 70 percent or so of offensive skill, than pointing would become a more important tactic again. Obviously this goes two ways, AOE attack spells would take another hit.

So as for my bias oozing all over anything, I think you're flat out wrong. I want a balanced game, because without it, no one fights each other. You've been in the tourneys a long time right? Then you probably know the extent that I go to in the ones I set up to try and make it as even as possible. Happy fights mean more fights mean more chances for me to kill characters mean fun times for this player. I have never stacked teams, or abilities, or anything else so that my character is the pwnzer of all. If anything, I try and do the opposite because it encourages more rounds, which is more fun to me.

<<I've been playing as long as you and been in the prime pvp/tourney circuit as long as you as well. I don't claim to know everything but if we're going to be honest with ourselves, hiding outpaces perception in prime.>>

Agreed. Hiding is "easier" to learn than perception, because it can be learned at the same time as combat. Sniping allows even easier learning for survival primes, again, these are points I have never shirked away from. My relevant response was that almost all guilds have an ability to strike at the hidden, either without a perception check at all, or they have the help of some very generous perception boosters.

Now that ambush slash and ambush stun are rewritten, there is no equivalent stealth manuever that bypasses all defensive skills, although a case can be made for backstab. That's a seperate issue entirely and I think perception of backstab's uberness doesn't necessarily come from the check, but from the damage possible from a first strike. This goes to the damage/health system, and it is something I have advocated for change as well. I think if it took a lot more than one snipe attempt/backstab to truly finish an opponent, CvC stealth would be much better balanced and available anti-stealth abilities would be more effective. However, I know absolutely no way to reconcile that change with critter hunting, i.e. exp per hit on damage etc.

I am all for a way to better balance out the perception vs hiding contest, preferrably I would like to see a way to learn perception in combat.

<<There is one for roars. Well, not a timer in order to ROAR itself but after that first roar your voice level drops a whole heck of a lot and becomes even more ineffective past 2 roars.>>

I was under the impression that quite a few roars could be chained, if roared fast enough, with the voice drop only hitting the heaviest one. With the exception of screech wail? Regardless, I only said that to make a point. I don't think a roar timer or spell timer is any better than a hide timer.

<<Thank god for that insta-retreat though, keeps ya'll nice and safe.>>

I've posted several times in support for retreat and advance times based upon a stat/skill hybrid contest. You're assuming that because I didn't agree with your hiding timer idea, and I play a thief, I will knee-jerk defend anything good for the character I play. This isn't the case, and never has been the case for any guild I've played.

<<Yeah man, there's a whole army of anti-stealth out there.>>

There is. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but there is a lot of help out there to nullify stealth. I will shed no tears for AOE. I agree that there are problems with the perception vs hiding training scale at post 400 ranks. Up until then, there are boosters that can combine for 200 plus ranks of perception. I'd add that my view of roar slash, frostbite, CL, and TKS is nowhere near as bad as yours. CL and frostbite took a hit for sure, but mages at my level can still drop me just fine and I consider my thief a reasonably combat trained character.

40 plus charisma and you still have problems vs 300 hiding huh? That's strange because I wouldn't think someone with 300 hiding had the discipline to stand up to anything remotely close to a 40 plus charisma roar contest. 50 charisma, warpaint and dragon was enough to reliably pull 900 hiding, 70 disc, out of the shadows, from a gor'tog barbarian at missle. 60 charisma, warpaint, and dragon was enough to pull 900 plus hiding/99 discipline 5 of 5 times at missle, 2 for 2 with two other people in the room. I know 60 charisma may seem a long way away, but the tradeoff is that once you get there, hiding ranks mean nothing vs you if you know the person is in the room.

This is pointless though, I'm not going to go round and round with you about options etc. You've admitted you played a long time, apparently deep in the tourney cycle experience, so your mind is set. I gave you some ideas that I have posted repeatedly, that I think will help the stealth contest balance out. A hiding timer is not one of them in my opinion.

<<Basically I'm tired of stealth being the be-all-end-all of CvC in both regular fights and conflicts with GMPCs. Either they are super 150+ barbarians who are invulnerable to magic and can insta-roar everyone to death or they have 1500 hiding.>>

I agree, but I think that's an issue of damage, not stealth. Zeyurn and some other GMs have played around with super armor to great effect I think. GMPCs also tend to have absolutely insane perception. Short of Vymos ambush stunning the Prince once, I'm not sure I've ever even heard of a stealth attack working out vs a GMPC.