Hey, guys.
Recently it has become very common to accuse people of metagaming and to throw shade on this or that practice as metagaming. I'd like to appeal to everyone to stop doing that.
DR is a game (duh, of course) and that means countless things are abstracted into mechanics and Policy just by necessity. We can all name some easy examples of that, for instance:
1. We immediately notice particular people when we enter a room whether the room is a crowded stadium or ten square miles of wildernsss or a broom closet.
2. Being caught by the guards after comitting a crime nets a couple minutes detention and a fine (for playability. Nobody wants to RP being stuck in jail for more than a few minutes) for even the most prolific and flagrant mass murderers.
3. Policy dictates when violence can happen and who can participate, not the actual loyalties of the PCs or the sociopolitical facts of the moment or etc.
4. PCs can't permadie.
And so on. There are a million big and small things, which are sometimes to our advantage and sometimes not, that we know can't be how the world works from a story perspective but that we accept and work with anyway because DR is a game. Whenever we do that, that is metagaming. Whenever we commit crime in town knowing the consequence is going to be a couple plat fine and having to redo our ESP settings, that is metagaming. Whenever we mouth off to someone, knowing they can't land a lucky arrow through the knee and end our adventuring careers, that's metgaming. When we hold entire parallel whispered conversations alongside the ones we're having out loud because we know we can do it without being noticed doing it, that is metagaming. Literally everyone is metagaming every day almost all the time because playing a game also means, to some extent, engaging in the metagame as well.
Before we accuse each other of metagaming, before we try to use that term to throw shade, we should stop and acknowledge all the ways we also (and inevitably) engage in and benefit from metagaming. Before we call for mechanics changes because "people can't RP" or whatever, we should acknowledge the ways the mechanics benefit us that equally don't make a lot of sense from a story perspective. And we should acknowledge that there is a certain amount of meta-meta-gaming involved in complaining that this or that thing that doesn't benefit us is metagaming.
But all that is almost beside the point, because most of the time that accusation - you're metagaming!! - is about hurt feelings and unfulfilled expectations more than any objective appraisal of what actually happened, and it says more about the RPer making the accusation (and where their head is at in the moment) than anything else. It's an accusation used to throw shade on people when something happens that the accuser doesn't like but otherwise can't argue with. And it makes people less willing to trust eachother and work together in the future.
So let's just stop doing it. Instead, let's just directly talk about the wants and expectations behind the claims and either agree or agree to disagree.
Mazrian
JULIAN
ANARCHIE
Re: What a meta game.
10/01/2018 08:43 AM CDT
Sure, I'll bite.
Which term would you prefer instead of meta-gaming?
If we're going to agree that at some level every player participating practices some form of meta-gaming just to interact with the setting then I'll agree that the term meta-gaming can apply to those instances.
I wont personally agree with people blatantly using mechanics in situations where there's very little to no reasonable expectation for that reaction. Repeatedly searching, perceiving health, perceiving favors, yadda are all examples of things that in the normal routine of playing aren't actions that CHARACTERS would do with real frequency unless there's an OOC reason that the PLAYER would have for reacting like that.
What about things like guild handshakes or using titles that, unless you've had a conversation with the character, dont have any business in the scene? Do we allow those to be hand-waived because 'my character has heard of them and you look like the type'? Predictions? Whistles? The list is fairly extensive, but I think you get the point.
Acceptable RP is just that, acceptable. When mechanical circumvention pops into the scene you're playing to win and not to interact in good faith.
You pick the term, I'll be more than happy to keep myself from lumping them all into the same bucket and instead start calling people out for the BS.
-Nsar
MULLERY1
Re: What a meta game.
10/01/2018 08:59 AM CDT
I think on some level, every player, ok maybe not every player, but most players are guilty of this. Discord and before that AIM let it happen and still let it happen. I.E. 'Hey can you sell a pouch for me, can you heal me, can you drag my body, oh man I need this does anyone have it and in my case at times...hey can you come orb this spot?' Gweth is hardly used anymore, hell gweth wasn't even used the other day when what I assume was a duckling event was going on, the rp channel in discord was because 'oh some people might be offline.' You know there used to be a time that if some people were offline, they just missed the event, big or small. Now that being said I think the metagaming comes with this...
Player one and Player two decide to do some rp, they say this inside a discord chat, or any OOC chat anywhere. Out of no where Players, three, four, five and six show up and know exactly what is going on. Or it comes with walking into a room and knowing for sure who someone is, what guild they are, what they have done. It comes with the profile Zehira and seeing my spouse and who they are and seeing my pvp stance and what it is. One of the only people lately to NOT know automatically know who my spouse is has been Rifkinn, whom I've had some pretty good gweth banter with, who tried to get Z's spouses name out of her and I give him props for that. I'm not even going to go into the mechanics of risen and the trouble that has caused lately, wasn't my risen, wasn't my fight, my risen can normally stand there for a good amount of time. So how to fix it? I highly doubt there is a way, people are going to use what they want to use whether it's OOC or not, whether it was found out in game, out of game, or down the street.
Z
I don't feel that I need to explain my art to you, Warren.
Player one and Player two decide to do some rp, they say this inside a discord chat, or any OOC chat anywhere. Out of no where Players, three, four, five and six show up and know exactly what is going on. Or it comes with walking into a room and knowing for sure who someone is, what guild they are, what they have done. It comes with the profile Zehira and seeing my spouse and who they are and seeing my pvp stance and what it is. One of the only people lately to NOT know automatically know who my spouse is has been Rifkinn, whom I've had some pretty good gweth banter with, who tried to get Z's spouses name out of her and I give him props for that. I'm not even going to go into the mechanics of risen and the trouble that has caused lately, wasn't my risen, wasn't my fight, my risen can normally stand there for a good amount of time. So how to fix it? I highly doubt there is a way, people are going to use what they want to use whether it's OOC or not, whether it was found out in game, out of game, or down the street.
Z
I don't feel that I need to explain my art to you, Warren.
JINGO
Re: What a meta game.
10/01/2018 09:20 AM CDT
Just as a point of precedence, anyone remember the "Passerby" at the Bank who filled the jails up so much that people were literally being shipped off to the islands to be jailed - for Metagaming?
Like the charges were always ridiculous things but it was always about reacting in ways that didn't make sense when you considered the context of a "passerby."
Like the charges were always ridiculous things but it was always about reacting in ways that didn't make sense when you considered the context of a "passerby."
OMEGANECRO
Re: What a meta game.
10/01/2018 12:25 PM CDT
I agree Mazrian, Meta gaming does happen and needs to happen to make things work. Calling out people all the time for Meta gaming doesnt do anything but cause issues, piss people off, and cause hurt feelings. I think the real issue should be better defined. The real issue is a key point you said
>>There are a million big and small things, which are sometimes to our advantage and sometimes not,
and that in itself points to the issue. The "sometimes not" is very rarely seen, and its with this double standard sense of meta gaming is the issue. People can interact and accept so many things, but when its a disadvantage its automatic no my character would never do this. I think that is a major issue we are running into RP. We know we have to OOC give a bit of leeway, but it seems some people are willing to take that leeway form the other side but not give it. The major issues is exactly what you said. OOC knowledge we use alot. From nameplates to pretty much anyway we interact with dr through a our console. The issue is this double standard thought process. We have a problem from team bad to team good because we keep falling back on this IC my character would never. When we admit that we do use meta game, that we do use OCC stuff, but then wont even fathom doing it to allow rp because your IC would never allow this. The issue isnt meta gaming, the issue is selective use of it to benefit and not an overall hey lets try to get good rp going.
There are some major hurdles we as a group of RPers have to overcome to allow good rp to happen. I am writing up a post on Risens right now over on the Necromancer forums because I think the handle of one of these key features which could help turn the tide of some major problems and issues. Please feel welcomed to comment and address any concerns on Risens there.
No where am I trying to say this is a one sided problem. For this to work we have to work together to come up with a solution that will allow for bigger and greater things, but it cant keep going to we cant rp because my character would just kill, murder, avoid. There has to be some leeway and respect on both sides, and there has to be some give. Until that happens we are doom to repeat the same story over and over again, and it gets us the same rp which is nothing.
Totenus
DAEMETHEUS
Re: What a meta game.
10/01/2018 12:33 PM CDT
No idea what you're looking for.
1) Jail and justice consequences should reflect the types of activities performed. E.g., if you're a mass murderer, why are you fined like 100 plat and set free?
I support public executions, city bans (that don't affect travel between provinces), and harsher penalties depending on the crime. In GS, consistently doing crimes nets you up to like 20 minutes of jail time, where you answer randomly-generated (from a pool) questions.
2) Treat NPCs that aren't being accosted by the guard as normal citizens according to Justice. You wouldn't attack a blind old beggar, why are you free to murderize someone who appears to be an innocent civilian in town (unless you can verify/accuse the thing successfully). And if this is the case, what are the long-term RP consequences to these actions?
2a) Do townies become more suspect about their fellow neighbor being a zombie? Do rumors and false accusations of necromancy appear (perhaps randomly) for various activities, such as even simple spell casting causing commoners to suspect you of practice dark arts?
2b) Do towns suddenly get more violent as it becomes common-place, causing ruffians to appear randomly throughout the streets, criminal charges to ramp up to "unreasonable" amounts (perhaps based on bank info) because the politicians and judges have become more corrupt? Or the reverse of this, do towns become saturated with Inquisitors and Hounds that are interrogating (perhaps violently) people passing by on a whim that they may be evil, for the benefit of the greater good (the greater good)?
3) Ranting on forums about meta-gaming should be bannable because it's too meta.
1) Jail and justice consequences should reflect the types of activities performed. E.g., if you're a mass murderer, why are you fined like 100 plat and set free?
I support public executions, city bans (that don't affect travel between provinces), and harsher penalties depending on the crime. In GS, consistently doing crimes nets you up to like 20 minutes of jail time, where you answer randomly-generated (from a pool) questions.
2) Treat NPCs that aren't being accosted by the guard as normal citizens according to Justice. You wouldn't attack a blind old beggar, why are you free to murderize someone who appears to be an innocent civilian in town (unless you can verify/accuse the thing successfully). And if this is the case, what are the long-term RP consequences to these actions?
2a) Do townies become more suspect about their fellow neighbor being a zombie? Do rumors and false accusations of necromancy appear (perhaps randomly) for various activities, such as even simple spell casting causing commoners to suspect you of practice dark arts?
2b) Do towns suddenly get more violent as it becomes common-place, causing ruffians to appear randomly throughout the streets, criminal charges to ramp up to "unreasonable" amounts (perhaps based on bank info) because the politicians and judges have become more corrupt? Or the reverse of this, do towns become saturated with Inquisitors and Hounds that are interrogating (perhaps violently) people passing by on a whim that they may be evil, for the benefit of the greater good (the greater good)?
3) Ranting on forums about meta-gaming should be bannable because it's too meta.
GNOMISHINQUISITION
Re: What a meta game.
10/01/2018 01:25 PM CDT
A thought, specifically on the position of Risen, and metagaming:
Non-monstrous Risen (i.e. the ones that pass as commoners) are specifically meant to pass by without direct notice. A non-monstrous Risen attending a gathering or event may just want to be a Necromancer being a somewhat-active member of the DR community and having minor participation in player social gatherings or events, not to cause trouble or disrupt. I get it -- Necromancers are verboten from everything event-related in-character, but maybe we can make a gentleman's agreement OOC allowing an exception for Risen that are non-monstrous and not being any more disruptive than a familiar?
Monstrosities and abominations, on the other hand, are meant to be overt and non-questionably undead creations. Kill on sight, by all means.
I've seen a comment on them being listed as monsters, and attackable. The monsterbold and their listing was a constraint of the system, per GM posts prior to release, not because they were intended to be kill-on-sight. Generally speaking, if there's a grey area re: metagaming, or Lore -- I try to err on the side of not being a jerk to another human being.
On the other hand:
If things are highlighted with monsterbold because we need to kill them on sight? Score. Caravans, horses, hirelings, guardian spirits, and familiars, here I come!
Fhtagn.
Non-monstrous Risen (i.e. the ones that pass as commoners) are specifically meant to pass by without direct notice. A non-monstrous Risen attending a gathering or event may just want to be a Necromancer being a somewhat-active member of the DR community and having minor participation in player social gatherings or events, not to cause trouble or disrupt. I get it -- Necromancers are verboten from everything event-related in-character, but maybe we can make a gentleman's agreement OOC allowing an exception for Risen that are non-monstrous and not being any more disruptive than a familiar?
Monstrosities and abominations, on the other hand, are meant to be overt and non-questionably undead creations. Kill on sight, by all means.
I've seen a comment on them being listed as monsters, and attackable. The monsterbold and their listing was a constraint of the system, per GM posts prior to release, not because they were intended to be kill-on-sight. Generally speaking, if there's a grey area re: metagaming, or Lore -- I try to err on the side of not being a jerk to another human being.
On the other hand:
If things are highlighted with monsterbold because we need to kill them on sight? Score. Caravans, horses, hirelings, guardian spirits, and familiars, here I come!
Fhtagn.
JULIAN
Re: What a meta game.
10/01/2018 01:34 PM CDT
>>I wont personally agree with people blatantly using mechanics in situations where there's very little to no reasonable expectation for that reaction. Repeatedly searching, perceiving health, perceiving favors, yadda are all examples of things that in the normal routine of playing aren't actions that CHARACTERS would do with real frequency unless there's an OOC reason that the PLAYER would have for reacting like that.<<
So maybe we have a point of disagreement around some things. In a world where members of a reviled, dangerous, and illegal group are trying to blend into society, where that is a thing that has happened and that continues happening, it's not unreasonable or OOC for characters to react that way depending on how worried or not they are about Necromancers.
>>What about things like guild handshakes or using titles that, unless you've had a conversation with the character, dont have any business in the scene? Do we allow those to be hand-waived because 'my character has heard of them and you look like the type'? Predictions? Whistles? The list is fairly extensive, but I think you get the point.<<
Depends on the thing, I guess? "If you're a Ranger, do the secret handshake" is not an unreasonable ask in a world where Rangers have a secret handshake. If a character is trying to pass but doesn't know all the movies, well, that's awkward for them but not a person's fault for asking. Telling someone to put a title up to prove what they are or show their profession flag is obviously OOC. But letting someone pass because they have a guild title up (because titles are reputation - otherwise necro titles wouldn't cause SO) is IC. "Don't do the OOC things" is a rule people could agree on but "don't do all these IC things" is probably not a reasonable stance.
Willful ignorance or blindness is not, IMO, a reasonable expectation. Some people may choose to embrace it and others not, but there's nothing wrong with playing a PC who is paranoid about Necromancers (in a world where Necromancers passing among the populace is a thing that happens and a Big Deal) even though it happens to be inconvenient for the Necromancers.
>>Acceptable RP is just that, acceptable. When mechanical circumvention pops into the scene you're playing to win and not to interact in good faith.<<
One of the things I feel gets lost in these kinds of RP discussions is that while every PC has their own unique perspective, DR is not a game about any one character with the others subordinate. If a player's goals for their character include "stay hidden as a necro" that's a totally valid thing but also not something other players are responsible for conforming to. IMO that is a big point we need to come to grips with before it makes sense to talk about things happening in bad faith.
Mazrian
So maybe we have a point of disagreement around some things. In a world where members of a reviled, dangerous, and illegal group are trying to blend into society, where that is a thing that has happened and that continues happening, it's not unreasonable or OOC for characters to react that way depending on how worried or not they are about Necromancers.
>>What about things like guild handshakes or using titles that, unless you've had a conversation with the character, dont have any business in the scene? Do we allow those to be hand-waived because 'my character has heard of them and you look like the type'? Predictions? Whistles? The list is fairly extensive, but I think you get the point.<<
Depends on the thing, I guess? "If you're a Ranger, do the secret handshake" is not an unreasonable ask in a world where Rangers have a secret handshake. If a character is trying to pass but doesn't know all the movies, well, that's awkward for them but not a person's fault for asking. Telling someone to put a title up to prove what they are or show their profession flag is obviously OOC. But letting someone pass because they have a guild title up (because titles are reputation - otherwise necro titles wouldn't cause SO) is IC. "Don't do the OOC things" is a rule people could agree on but "don't do all these IC things" is probably not a reasonable stance.
Willful ignorance or blindness is not, IMO, a reasonable expectation. Some people may choose to embrace it and others not, but there's nothing wrong with playing a PC who is paranoid about Necromancers (in a world where Necromancers passing among the populace is a thing that happens and a Big Deal) even though it happens to be inconvenient for the Necromancers.
>>Acceptable RP is just that, acceptable. When mechanical circumvention pops into the scene you're playing to win and not to interact in good faith.<<
One of the things I feel gets lost in these kinds of RP discussions is that while every PC has their own unique perspective, DR is not a game about any one character with the others subordinate. If a player's goals for their character include "stay hidden as a necro" that's a totally valid thing but also not something other players are responsible for conforming to. IMO that is a big point we need to come to grips with before it makes sense to talk about things happening in bad faith.
Mazrian
ZERODIVIDES
Re: What a meta game.
10/01/2018 02:36 PM CDT
>>Repeatedly searching, perceiving health, perceiving favors, yadda are all examples of things that in the normal routine of playing aren't actions that CHARACTERS would do with real frequency
I don't know, one of my Empaths perceives health every ~90 seconds. Of course, said Empath is extremely paranoid. She got that way because a trusted friend and brother in arms betrayed her into the clutches of a well-known Necrolord who proceeded to dismember her (alive) with a bonesaw and use her body parts to create a new body for himself. Said Necrolord later tried to possess her and use her as a meat puppet. Another trusted person lured her into their house, killed her, and then killed and ate heart of the Clerical companion she brought with her.
Or as we call it in Elanthia, Havrandu.
Especially for characters who lived through the Lyras war, I think it's a bit funny to claim that people have no reason to be that paranoid. The paranoia is the product of events, some of which you may not know about (lol!), but that does not mean the events didn't happen.
--
I don't know, one of my Empaths perceives health every ~90 seconds. Of course, said Empath is extremely paranoid. She got that way because a trusted friend and brother in arms betrayed her into the clutches of a well-known Necrolord who proceeded to dismember her (alive) with a bonesaw and use her body parts to create a new body for himself. Said Necrolord later tried to possess her and use her as a meat puppet. Another trusted person lured her into their house, killed her, and then killed and ate heart of the Clerical companion she brought with her.
Or as we call it in Elanthia, Havrandu.
Especially for characters who lived through the Lyras war, I think it's a bit funny to claim that people have no reason to be that paranoid. The paranoia is the product of events, some of which you may not know about (lol!), but that does not mean the events didn't happen.
--
BRENNAROSE
Re: What a meta game.
10/01/2018 04:03 PM CDT
I don't post a whole lot for several reasons, but I think I want to chime in on this piece below:
>>Willful ignorance or blindness is not, IMO, a reasonable expectation. Some people may choose to embrace it and others not, but there's nothing wrong with playing a PC who is paranoid about Necromancers (in a world where Necromancers passing among the populace is a thing that happens and a Big Deal) even though it happens to be inconvenient for the Necromancers.
Then it is those same PC's that "play paranoid" of necromancers "and shoot first" that need to educate the rest of the PC base, hopefully in an IC way where possible, that these necromancers can create havoc and do what necromancers are going to do in their own IC way, within the rules of the game with the tools that they have been given by the game. Necromancers can make things inconvenient as well, however, when they do there seems to be a player base that cries foul. When the necromancer community tries to point out opportunities for better interaction across the player base it seems to be met with hesitancy and skepticism instead of an open mind.
This maybe somewhat off thread, but in regards to the recent attacks on suspicious Commoners aka Risen which was in another post, it would be great if there were some consequences for those PC's that choose to attack a Commoner, such as being locked open for a period of time. Unless of course that Commoner attacked someone first or was actively involved in disrupting the peace or forbidden practices which is highly unlikely for those suspicious Commoners.
>>Willful ignorance or blindness is not, IMO, a reasonable expectation. Some people may choose to embrace it and others not, but there's nothing wrong with playing a PC who is paranoid about Necromancers (in a world where Necromancers passing among the populace is a thing that happens and a Big Deal) even though it happens to be inconvenient for the Necromancers.
Then it is those same PC's that "play paranoid" of necromancers "and shoot first" that need to educate the rest of the PC base, hopefully in an IC way where possible, that these necromancers can create havoc and do what necromancers are going to do in their own IC way, within the rules of the game with the tools that they have been given by the game. Necromancers can make things inconvenient as well, however, when they do there seems to be a player base that cries foul. When the necromancer community tries to point out opportunities for better interaction across the player base it seems to be met with hesitancy and skepticism instead of an open mind.
This maybe somewhat off thread, but in regards to the recent attacks on suspicious Commoners aka Risen which was in another post, it would be great if there were some consequences for those PC's that choose to attack a Commoner, such as being locked open for a period of time. Unless of course that Commoner attacked someone first or was actively involved in disrupting the peace or forbidden practices which is highly unlikely for those suspicious Commoners.
GNOMISHINQUISITION
Re: What a meta game.
10/01/2018 04:46 PM CDT
Let's say I've had a monstrous risen. A big, ugly nasty thing. More heads than anything else, breathes fire, and has to eat a baby every half an anlas or it gets dismissed. Let's say I tromp it through town, and make a big show of a big nasty.
Now let's say a circle 30ish Paladin of Rutilor with a player not-too-familiar with the Necromancer guild (or a player who's okay with losing if he gets an interesting RP out of it), thinking it is an invasion critter and wanting to take place in some RP shows up, and makes a big show of attacking it.
Would it be good form for me to make a big show of mechanically roflstomping the Paladin for wanting to roleplay, maybe monologueing if I'm feeling verbose, and then ending the interaction? My character totally has justification, as he has been mistreated by the Hounds and by Team Holy, and technically may have consent. Me, I'd prefer either to dismiss the Risen and pull it completely to not bother the Paladin, maybe show up and roleplay, or maybe stance way down and at least have a fun RPed fight.
Now let's apply that same idea in reverse.
If I trot out a human-looking Risen and have it show up to an event, it is specifically because I am looking to not disrupt the event, but instead roleplay and participate. If a known Necrolord showed up, the entire event would likely be disrupted. But through a Risen that is functionally similar to a Familiar, and that the player has put in significant effort (and traded away mechanical benefits) to have it pass as "normal?" Why not give it a pass if it's not being disruptive instead of quite literally stopping the event to make a big, flashy show of killing a pet designed for non-combat utility? Benign-appearing Risen are actually a really intriguing avenue to include Necromancer players without disrupting events or compromising your character's beliefs. My experiences (back in the day) with Team Holy were largely pleasant, but under an OOC-agreed detente that included deliberate avoidance of mechanical methods of outing careful Necromancers (after the arrange-counting, but before the current kill-on-sight dynamic that apparently applies to all Risen). But, that detente was largely built on "Hey, why don't we have fun without ruining each other's fun." And it doesn't seem like that detente (or any consideration for player fun) has lasted in the time I've not been involved, to a significant detriment of roleplay (and fun).
TLDR: Nothing wrong with paranoia. But it may be worth asking, "am I choosing to be a jerk and deny a player a roleplay opportunity because of mechanical knowledge I have?" and erring on the side of pretend-ignorance.
We've got enough people scripting in corners without making an entire guild feel like they're limited to that if they don't particularly find their only RP playing a mustache-twirling villain appealing.
Fhtagn.
Now let's say a circle 30ish Paladin of Rutilor with a player not-too-familiar with the Necromancer guild (or a player who's okay with losing if he gets an interesting RP out of it), thinking it is an invasion critter and wanting to take place in some RP shows up, and makes a big show of attacking it.
Would it be good form for me to make a big show of mechanically roflstomping the Paladin for wanting to roleplay, maybe monologueing if I'm feeling verbose, and then ending the interaction? My character totally has justification, as he has been mistreated by the Hounds and by Team Holy, and technically may have consent. Me, I'd prefer either to dismiss the Risen and pull it completely to not bother the Paladin, maybe show up and roleplay, or maybe stance way down and at least have a fun RPed fight.
Now let's apply that same idea in reverse.
If I trot out a human-looking Risen and have it show up to an event, it is specifically because I am looking to not disrupt the event, but instead roleplay and participate. If a known Necrolord showed up, the entire event would likely be disrupted. But through a Risen that is functionally similar to a Familiar, and that the player has put in significant effort (and traded away mechanical benefits) to have it pass as "normal?" Why not give it a pass if it's not being disruptive instead of quite literally stopping the event to make a big, flashy show of killing a pet designed for non-combat utility? Benign-appearing Risen are actually a really intriguing avenue to include Necromancer players without disrupting events or compromising your character's beliefs. My experiences (back in the day) with Team Holy were largely pleasant, but under an OOC-agreed detente that included deliberate avoidance of mechanical methods of outing careful Necromancers (after the arrange-counting, but before the current kill-on-sight dynamic that apparently applies to all Risen). But, that detente was largely built on "Hey, why don't we have fun without ruining each other's fun." And it doesn't seem like that detente (or any consideration for player fun) has lasted in the time I've not been involved, to a significant detriment of roleplay (and fun).
TLDR: Nothing wrong with paranoia. But it may be worth asking, "am I choosing to be a jerk and deny a player a roleplay opportunity because of mechanical knowledge I have?" and erring on the side of pretend-ignorance.
We've got enough people scripting in corners without making an entire guild feel like they're limited to that if they don't particularly find their only RP playing a mustache-twirling villain appealing.
Fhtagn.
MULLERY1
Re: What a meta game.
10/01/2018 05:18 PM CDT
Since we're on the subject of risen, here is what I will say. None of my 'normal looking' risen have been killed on sight, well I take that back, a couple of times. One person was fine with it when I let them know it was mine, Zehira is a lot of things and when her creation is killed, she doesn't take it well. One person cried foul, said I was trying to bait. I sent it to talk to them and bam they attacked. Now just yesterday, I sent one into the empath guild, just to watch, just to look around and see what was going on as myself and another were kind of messing with the Crossing. Everyone was fine with my risen until I spoke through it, called them mouthbreathers, etc. At that time, spawn came out, risen died, and the ranger that cast it was more than fine with the fact that Zehira was upset that her creation was killed, and I was more than fine that he assessed things, rped it out and I gave him props and pirp's for it. Things happened...it was solved.
Now I have two, a monstrosity and I believe it says a suspicious risen figure or something like that. Those of course should be dealt with differently, I mean if a suspicious person or a monstrosity came into my hunting room, I'd not look at it as being a kind thing BUT they can all communicate if you teach them so again...never know. The problem doesn't lie just with risen, I get locates, familiars find me, all things that other guild are able to use, for rp purposes. Risen fall into the same category. How to fix it, how to fix the meta-gaming I don't know. Both sides want rp, good rp, both sides want to give.
Z
I don't feel that I need to explain my art to you, Warren.
Now I have two, a monstrosity and I believe it says a suspicious risen figure or something like that. Those of course should be dealt with differently, I mean if a suspicious person or a monstrosity came into my hunting room, I'd not look at it as being a kind thing BUT they can all communicate if you teach them so again...never know. The problem doesn't lie just with risen, I get locates, familiars find me, all things that other guild are able to use, for rp purposes. Risen fall into the same category. How to fix it, how to fix the meta-gaming I don't know. Both sides want rp, good rp, both sides want to give.
Z
I don't feel that I need to explain my art to you, Warren.
ZERODIVIDES
Re: What a meta game.
10/01/2018 05:27 PM CDT
>>TLDR: Nothing wrong with paranoia. But it may be worth asking, "am I choosing to be a jerk and deny a player a roleplay opportunity because of mechanical knowledge I have?" and erring on the side of pretend-ignorance.
I am on board with the idea of giving normal-seeming risen some skill-based means of passing as normal citizens to Empaths, just for whatever that's worth. Risen are all fine and good, but I think unless they have some sort of plausible deniability, it's a bit much to expect Empaths to ignore them if they're already in the habit of periodically searching their surroundings for threats, undead and otherwise.
However, I feel that you're perhaps understating the Empath's perception of the undead creature as undead. Would you expect other players to pretend an obviously-rotting zombie is not, in fact, a zombie? Or that they should just fail to look at it? Or that your five-headed risen that eats babies is just a normal guy with an unfortunate case of the Ratha rot? I doubt it, and I don't think it's fair to expect Empaths to ignore their undead sense, either. For my part, I'd probably avoid bringing a paranoid Empath to an event that I (player) perceived to be aimed at a less-than pristine faction of DR (read: probably anything in Dirge, these days). But, say, a City Defense Town Hall Meeting? Welp.
It would not occur to me that the paranoid Empath could possibly welcome at a shadier event, or, say, any event in Therengia. (But isn't everyone banned from Therengia?)
A great deal of this last bit of the thread seems to have been devoted to Risen, but I believe the original post (and the complaint that probably spurred the post) were more general, so I hope the Risen side-thread doesn't totally obscure the original one.
--
I am on board with the idea of giving normal-seeming risen some skill-based means of passing as normal citizens to Empaths, just for whatever that's worth. Risen are all fine and good, but I think unless they have some sort of plausible deniability, it's a bit much to expect Empaths to ignore them if they're already in the habit of periodically searching their surroundings for threats, undead and otherwise.
However, I feel that you're perhaps understating the Empath's perception of the undead creature as undead. Would you expect other players to pretend an obviously-rotting zombie is not, in fact, a zombie? Or that they should just fail to look at it? Or that your five-headed risen that eats babies is just a normal guy with an unfortunate case of the Ratha rot? I doubt it, and I don't think it's fair to expect Empaths to ignore their undead sense, either. For my part, I'd probably avoid bringing a paranoid Empath to an event that I (player) perceived to be aimed at a less-than pristine faction of DR (read: probably anything in Dirge, these days). But, say, a City Defense Town Hall Meeting? Welp.
It would not occur to me that the paranoid Empath could possibly welcome at a shadier event, or, say, any event in Therengia. (But isn't everyone banned from Therengia?)
A great deal of this last bit of the thread seems to have been devoted to Risen, but I believe the original post (and the complaint that probably spurred the post) were more general, so I hope the Risen side-thread doesn't totally obscure the original one.
--
GNOMISHINQUISITION
Re: What a meta game.
10/01/2018 05:37 PM CDT
>A great deal of this last bit of the thread seems to have been devoted to Risen, but I believe the original post (and the complaint that probably spurred the post) were more general, so I hope the Risen side-thread doesn't totally obscure the original one.
Fair. It was an example I was pulling from due to a few recent logs I've seen, that is fresh on my mind.
My point, though, I hope applies in general: When it comes to metagaming, if you're unsure, I think it would benefit the community as a whole for each of us to ask ourselves two questions before weighing in with "My character would know X":
Would this knowledge (and my character acting on it):
1) Ruin someone else's enjoyment of an event/RP?
2) Ruin someone else's participation in an event/RP?
And, if either of those is "Yes" - maybe air on the side of ignorance.
Fhtagn.
Fair. It was an example I was pulling from due to a few recent logs I've seen, that is fresh on my mind.
My point, though, I hope applies in general: When it comes to metagaming, if you're unsure, I think it would benefit the community as a whole for each of us to ask ourselves two questions before weighing in with "My character would know X":
Would this knowledge (and my character acting on it):
1) Ruin someone else's enjoyment of an event/RP?
2) Ruin someone else's participation in an event/RP?
And, if either of those is "Yes" - maybe air on the side of ignorance.
Fhtagn.
PRIMEQ
Re: What a meta game.
10/01/2018 07:16 PM CDT
Here's what I've been perceiving in the conversations lately that I think we all need to think about: Accusing people of metagaming is only going to lead to hurt feelings. This is because 1) the actions involved are not always metagaming, so people become upset when their legitimate actions are called out, 2) there are many interpretations of what could be metagaming, and 3) even if one person or a few people are metagaming, the accusations lately have been leveled at the community, which upsets the people who have been playing fairly.
A better way to communicate would be to express the desire for certain outcomes and ask for both GM developments and community involvement to achieve those ends. At the same time, acknowledge all those people who are already trying to be inclusive and work toward your goals. And finally, accept that not everyone reads the forums or knows enough about IC/OOC distinctions to play the way you're asking. Be patient and try reaching out individually in those cases.
I think the desired outcome in the Risen debate is for Necromancers to be able to participate more often at events, which is fair. However, it's not fair to ask people to refrain from using their abilities when it makes sense for their character (who may be super paranoid; it's not up to you to judge). So I think that, first and foremost, we as a community should request a few GM changes to Risen -- most of these have already been mentioned in other threads, so I'll just say I agree with all so far. In particular hiding the Risen from Empath/Cleric detection seems like a great way to go, especially if it has to be used carefully so that it could still fail. A Disguise for the Necro, so they could attend things in person, would also be nice.
As for the community's role, well, I'd love it if people would give just a little more leeway toward Risen. I personally do. I will point out that maybe, if it makes sense for your character, you might view the Risen as difficult to discern in a large crowd. Maybe you can tell there's an undead nearby but not just who it is or where it is. Think about giving them at least a little longer to stay around. That said, I think that if people make use of their legitimate abilities and want to pursue Risen sometimes, that should also be okay.
- Navesi
A better way to communicate would be to express the desire for certain outcomes and ask for both GM developments and community involvement to achieve those ends. At the same time, acknowledge all those people who are already trying to be inclusive and work toward your goals. And finally, accept that not everyone reads the forums or knows enough about IC/OOC distinctions to play the way you're asking. Be patient and try reaching out individually in those cases.
I think the desired outcome in the Risen debate is for Necromancers to be able to participate more often at events, which is fair. However, it's not fair to ask people to refrain from using their abilities when it makes sense for their character (who may be super paranoid; it's not up to you to judge). So I think that, first and foremost, we as a community should request a few GM changes to Risen -- most of these have already been mentioned in other threads, so I'll just say I agree with all so far. In particular hiding the Risen from Empath/Cleric detection seems like a great way to go, especially if it has to be used carefully so that it could still fail. A Disguise for the Necro, so they could attend things in person, would also be nice.
As for the community's role, well, I'd love it if people would give just a little more leeway toward Risen. I personally do. I will point out that maybe, if it makes sense for your character, you might view the Risen as difficult to discern in a large crowd. Maybe you can tell there's an undead nearby but not just who it is or where it is. Think about giving them at least a little longer to stay around. That said, I think that if people make use of their legitimate abilities and want to pursue Risen sometimes, that should also be okay.
- Navesi
OMEGANECRO
Re: What a meta game.
10/01/2018 08:45 PM CDT
The issue is not just using their abilities but ignoring the mechanic of the role play situation after doing so. I explain more in depth on this thread:
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Necromancers/Roleplaying%20the%20Necromancer/view
but the issue is simple. Yes mechanical you can sense a risen, but the risen if one correctly made should be looking like every other citizen around. Nameplates are suppose to be OOC, but its being used to decide that a risen is a unique person and not a person who is blending in with all the citizens which are around the city (Aka all the people who report murders, do task and what not). The issue is that role play IC wise there is no reason you should be able to pick out a risen from the crowd of people that are there, yet it happens. Yes we are asking once again for GM interference, not because it should be needed, but because people do not understand what a risen is design to do in the IC enviroment, and therefore abuse that system. When you precieve health it doesn't point to a specific person. That mechanic is not the issue. The issue comes into play when you automatically look at the risen and say oh thats undead, oh I know what a risen is its bad kill it, oh I seen this around before, when in reality it should be more like hey there are 20 people here and one of them maybe a risen. Understandably this is not clear, and sadly it seems people cant understand the IC thought process it is suppose to follow, which is why maybe a GM most likely has to deal with the situation. No I'm not calling this meta gaming, I'm not calling this abuse, I'm simply calling it what it is. A problem that arises because people cant give a bit of leeway and understanding to a situation that could easily lead to rp, but instead decide that because they see a nameplate, and precieve an undead they know exactly what it is.
A risen has never been used to start violence, its main role is simple. To communicate. For some reason instead of taking the time to allow roleplay to happen, people jump the gun, kill it, then try to say it was rightful. Its not. It does nothing but cause more violence. It does nothing for the rp. It shouldnt be happen anyhow because of the situation ic. It should be an easy fix. Hey we didnt understand this, lets work on making it better so we can all rp together. Instead it goes to this, where people are insulting, are telling people to suck it up, its the same conversations that happen all over the place.
We are here to RP. We are here to find a good fun way that we dont make it a point to screw over rp for everyone on purpose. We do that by working together, not pointing fingers. We do that by talking and educating and being on the same page. Lets stop this. We as players can fix thing. We as people know other people play behind this, why is it that a simple request such as dont kill risens right away turn into this argument? It shouldnt. Each side have given consideration to the other before, and it needs to continue to happen for role play to advance.
A very cool step forward would be an acceptance that killing a risen right away in an ic situation shouldnt happen, and therefore will lead to roleplaying. I know many of the Necromancers actually have unique personalities for their Risens picked out.
When I generalize risens by the way I'm talking about the ones that look properly, not an abomination. When I say you dont know what it is in a city I'm saying that because it should blend in with all the people around that we dont see. If you see one in your hunting area you are going to suspect something fishy.
Can we just stop this kind of stuff and actually take a step back and find some common ground to allow for meaningful interactions. This helps stop Necromancers bridge a gap we've been trying to bridge a long time in a proper way that makes logical sense.
Totenus
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Necromancers/Roleplaying%20the%20Necromancer/view
but the issue is simple. Yes mechanical you can sense a risen, but the risen if one correctly made should be looking like every other citizen around. Nameplates are suppose to be OOC, but its being used to decide that a risen is a unique person and not a person who is blending in with all the citizens which are around the city (Aka all the people who report murders, do task and what not). The issue is that role play IC wise there is no reason you should be able to pick out a risen from the crowd of people that are there, yet it happens. Yes we are asking once again for GM interference, not because it should be needed, but because people do not understand what a risen is design to do in the IC enviroment, and therefore abuse that system. When you precieve health it doesn't point to a specific person. That mechanic is not the issue. The issue comes into play when you automatically look at the risen and say oh thats undead, oh I know what a risen is its bad kill it, oh I seen this around before, when in reality it should be more like hey there are 20 people here and one of them maybe a risen. Understandably this is not clear, and sadly it seems people cant understand the IC thought process it is suppose to follow, which is why maybe a GM most likely has to deal with the situation. No I'm not calling this meta gaming, I'm not calling this abuse, I'm simply calling it what it is. A problem that arises because people cant give a bit of leeway and understanding to a situation that could easily lead to rp, but instead decide that because they see a nameplate, and precieve an undead they know exactly what it is.
A risen has never been used to start violence, its main role is simple. To communicate. For some reason instead of taking the time to allow roleplay to happen, people jump the gun, kill it, then try to say it was rightful. Its not. It does nothing but cause more violence. It does nothing for the rp. It shouldnt be happen anyhow because of the situation ic. It should be an easy fix. Hey we didnt understand this, lets work on making it better so we can all rp together. Instead it goes to this, where people are insulting, are telling people to suck it up, its the same conversations that happen all over the place.
We are here to RP. We are here to find a good fun way that we dont make it a point to screw over rp for everyone on purpose. We do that by working together, not pointing fingers. We do that by talking and educating and being on the same page. Lets stop this. We as players can fix thing. We as people know other people play behind this, why is it that a simple request such as dont kill risens right away turn into this argument? It shouldnt. Each side have given consideration to the other before, and it needs to continue to happen for role play to advance.
A very cool step forward would be an acceptance that killing a risen right away in an ic situation shouldnt happen, and therefore will lead to roleplaying. I know many of the Necromancers actually have unique personalities for their Risens picked out.
When I generalize risens by the way I'm talking about the ones that look properly, not an abomination. When I say you dont know what it is in a city I'm saying that because it should blend in with all the people around that we dont see. If you see one in your hunting area you are going to suspect something fishy.
Can we just stop this kind of stuff and actually take a step back and find some common ground to allow for meaningful interactions. This helps stop Necromancers bridge a gap we've been trying to bridge a long time in a proper way that makes logical sense.
Totenus
JULIAN
Re: What a meta game.
10/02/2018 08:04 AM CDT
>>Then it is those same PC's that "play paranoid" of necromancers "and shoot first" that need to educate the rest of the PC base, hopefully in an IC way where possible, that these necromancers can create havoc<<
Were you around for the Lyras events? It genuinely confuses me when people are like "really, what's the big deal..." about Necromancers when there were so many events illustrating that and setting the tone for the guild. Maybe it has been a long time and I'm a text old. =( Did you know the original Totenus? Back in the day he was the most infamous Necrolord, though I know the current owner is trying to take it another way. I feel like, to someone who has been around since the run up to the guild´s release, the answer to the "what's the big deal?" question should probably be pretty straight forward.
>>If I trot out a human-looking Risen and have it show up to an event, it is specifically because I am looking to not disrupt the event, but instead roleplay and participate. If a known Necrolord showed up, the entire event would likely be disrupted. But through a Risen that is functionally similar to a Familiar, and that the player has put in significant effort (and traded away mechanical benefits) to have it pass as "normal?" Why not give it a pass if it's not being disruptive instead of quite literally stopping the event to make a big, flashy show of killing a pet designed for non-combat utility? Benign-appearing Risen are actually a really intriguing avenue to include Necromancer players without disrupting events or compromising your character's beliefs. My experiences (back in the day) with Team Holy were largely pleasant, but under an OOC-agreed detente that included deliberate avoidance of mechanical methods of outing careful Necromancers (after the arrange-counting, but before the current kill-on-sight dynamic that apparently applies to all Risen). But, that detente was largely built on "Hey, why don't we have fun without ruining each other's fun." And it doesn't seem like that detente (or any consideration for player fun) has lasted in the time I've not been involved, to a significant detriment of roleplay (and fun).<<
I think it...depends? A lot of times people do just leave them be, but sometimes not. Last night for example, hanging out at the Warmage guild, someone's Risen came to hang out and RP for awhile and nobody attacked it (though right before it left, it did kind of give the game away by talking about Book and its Master and stuff). At the WM lecture on Saturday it went a little differently. There was a risen present and people were mostly leaving it alone, and then someone in the group (who was signaled by an Empath) pointed the thing out. There was a little debate and then someone summoned a plague spawn to settle the issue (since they only attack undead) and that was kind of that (until a monsterous Risen came by a little later). Sometimes it's going to happen that way. Nobody killed a Risen on sight (except that second one, because monsterous) but when they did kill one, it wasn't about ruining anybody's fun.
IMO nobody did anything wrong in either situation. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to not kill them on sight, but it might be unreasonable to expect everyone to treat them the same way in all situations, or expect people in general to pretend ignorance for your benefit. Team Holy, when it sort of formally was a thing, was a small group of players who agreed to play a certain way (and I know there was drama involved in those arrangements just the same). But when we´re talking about players in general there's no one in charge and players have different, and equally valid, views about how they should RP.
Saragos posted this in the other thread in the Necro folder and it pretty well captures how I feel as well, and the reason I posted the thread.
>> 4) Roleplay with a risen correctly. Understand that it is a tool for rp, and allow leeway in your mechanical use to allow for a flow of rp to come.<<
>>This is the big one that catches me. Fundamentally, what's being asked for is for me to play with you. Regardless of your message, the way it's been communicated over the last few days by certain people has made me extremely reluctant to do so. I've got other things to do in my life besides DR, and if playing with some people carries a high chance of next-day namecalling and pronouncements that my roleplay s incorrect, I'm going to think twice about it.<<
Mazrian
Were you around for the Lyras events? It genuinely confuses me when people are like "really, what's the big deal..." about Necromancers when there were so many events illustrating that and setting the tone for the guild. Maybe it has been a long time and I'm a text old. =( Did you know the original Totenus? Back in the day he was the most infamous Necrolord, though I know the current owner is trying to take it another way. I feel like, to someone who has been around since the run up to the guild´s release, the answer to the "what's the big deal?" question should probably be pretty straight forward.
>>If I trot out a human-looking Risen and have it show up to an event, it is specifically because I am looking to not disrupt the event, but instead roleplay and participate. If a known Necrolord showed up, the entire event would likely be disrupted. But through a Risen that is functionally similar to a Familiar, and that the player has put in significant effort (and traded away mechanical benefits) to have it pass as "normal?" Why not give it a pass if it's not being disruptive instead of quite literally stopping the event to make a big, flashy show of killing a pet designed for non-combat utility? Benign-appearing Risen are actually a really intriguing avenue to include Necromancer players without disrupting events or compromising your character's beliefs. My experiences (back in the day) with Team Holy were largely pleasant, but under an OOC-agreed detente that included deliberate avoidance of mechanical methods of outing careful Necromancers (after the arrange-counting, but before the current kill-on-sight dynamic that apparently applies to all Risen). But, that detente was largely built on "Hey, why don't we have fun without ruining each other's fun." And it doesn't seem like that detente (or any consideration for player fun) has lasted in the time I've not been involved, to a significant detriment of roleplay (and fun).<<
I think it...depends? A lot of times people do just leave them be, but sometimes not. Last night for example, hanging out at the Warmage guild, someone's Risen came to hang out and RP for awhile and nobody attacked it (though right before it left, it did kind of give the game away by talking about Book and its Master and stuff). At the WM lecture on Saturday it went a little differently. There was a risen present and people were mostly leaving it alone, and then someone in the group (who was signaled by an Empath) pointed the thing out. There was a little debate and then someone summoned a plague spawn to settle the issue (since they only attack undead) and that was kind of that (until a monsterous Risen came by a little later). Sometimes it's going to happen that way. Nobody killed a Risen on sight (except that second one, because monsterous) but when they did kill one, it wasn't about ruining anybody's fun.
IMO nobody did anything wrong in either situation. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to not kill them on sight, but it might be unreasonable to expect everyone to treat them the same way in all situations, or expect people in general to pretend ignorance for your benefit. Team Holy, when it sort of formally was a thing, was a small group of players who agreed to play a certain way (and I know there was drama involved in those arrangements just the same). But when we´re talking about players in general there's no one in charge and players have different, and equally valid, views about how they should RP.
Saragos posted this in the other thread in the Necro folder and it pretty well captures how I feel as well, and the reason I posted the thread.
>> 4) Roleplay with a risen correctly. Understand that it is a tool for rp, and allow leeway in your mechanical use to allow for a flow of rp to come.<<
>>This is the big one that catches me. Fundamentally, what's being asked for is for me to play with you. Regardless of your message, the way it's been communicated over the last few days by certain people has made me extremely reluctant to do so. I've got other things to do in my life besides DR, and if playing with some people carries a high chance of next-day namecalling and pronouncements that my roleplay s incorrect, I'm going to think twice about it.<<
Mazrian
