<<Er... what? A lot of stuff has gotten completely retconned because of the new Necromancer lore. Sometimes more than once because they've had to go back and change what Rigby originally proposed.

Is it stuff about necromancers themselves, which wasn't always entirely clear and generally only involved a handful of players, or other parts of the history of Elanthia that had been long accepted as facts that are generally known by the wider populace?

I guess what I'm wondering is on what scale of impact are we talking here. If there was previously just the sea visible off the porch and then one morning there was a gigantic tower looming on an imposing rock a half mile off shore, that's a bigger change to take in stride than say, the tower and rock were always there and now we just know what lives inside it where we thought or had been told something else did before.

<<Realistically, you're just going to just have to suspend your disbelief or deal with it. I think we're all in agreement that it could be better, but I can't change the history of things that were done in game. I'll do what I can to make things make sense as things move on, though.

I can roll with that. I mostly just like discussing this stuff. It's also awesome to know you're working on updating the timeline. I've just returned to being an active player so am way behind the times on most everything. :)

<<People are pissed off about the Outcast thing for entirely different reasons.

Well surely, and it's a long list of different reasons too that have been hashed out and rehashed a lot over the years. I wasn't active during that time but I'm aware of some of the various issues. We're in the Elanthian History folder so that is the part I was thinking about.

Why is it okay to retcon pieces of detailed playable history that you dislike, but it's not okay to retcon vague bits and pieces in distant and completely unplayed timelines?

It's blatantly hypocritical and just highlights the fact that none of this is about historical lore integrity or any of that, it's just pettiness because you lost your favorite GMPC and can't handle actual, serious world-changing RP.

---

Rev. Reene

(1:45:46 AM) Mordiazi: The learned members of Elanthian society want to kick you in the nuts.

>>my real issue with the Outcast stuff is what happened to them after Shard's occupation, with them picking up and leaving then doing a complete 180 up north with them going "hey, guys, we're cool, right?"


--Player of Szrael --

---

Professional Healers Association Fee Calculator:

http://empathunion.appspot.com

Professional Healers Association Unofficial Crossing Healing Spot: east, north, go backdoor from Empath guild.

Aurdun will do a great job filling in the blanks of IG lore history.

- Simon

PS - No pressure, K? ;)

As I said that is a topic best dicussed on another folder if at all. I doubt everyone will agree as to what evil even is much less who is and who isn't evil.


Let's keep it on history and mea culpa for my own straying.


GM Quarel Veryan - Events Team.

There are four types of history in DR.

1) Something that was written down by a GM as back story and is never explicitly said in game, but is used to shape how characters and such react, how something has been formed, etc.

2) Something that was written down by a GM and expressed through OOC means (see: timeline, race charts) in order to further understanding and increase documentation.

3) Something that was written down by a GM or player (as is the case with a NUMBER of books) and put into a book, RECALL, or some other official exchange that is meant to be given to a number of people one or more times.

4) Events. These may or may not be recorded by players to share with other players, but they happen. When these events involve NPCs or have a significant impact on Elanthia or it's society, these become parts of Elanthia's lore.

When I look through our history, I have to know that I can not change events. These simply happened. Not only is it Elanthian history, it is game history. Good, bad, or stupid, it still happened. The others can be flexible, though some more so than others.

History doesn't get edited because of my opinions or brlief. History only gets edited when it is blatantly false or simply impossible. Yes, this can be jarring. That is why I was VERY careful in my edits of the timeline. I actually don't believe much was removed. Some dates were changed in the pre-history (we're talking ~5500 BL), a few things were omitted, a number of things were added, and there were untold grammar errors fixed (and created. Sigh). I think, when I can finally get it out to you guys, you will see that it isn't all that bad.

A good bit of the Outcast stuff falls in the "Events" category I mentioned. It can't be touched. I can stomach moving around the date of when the Dwarves first began smelting copper, but to pretend the Outcast situations are anything different than what they are simply because some people find it distasteful is downright absurd.

You can call it retcon all you want, but a good deal of it needs doing and I feel like people are being overly selective because they are mad about something still. That's well and good, but DR has suffered under inconsistent and flat our wrong/impossible history for too long and I'm not going to be the next in a number of History Gurus to let that happen. Porlock worked hard at getting much of it out and I intend to take it further.

DR is a game in constant flux. We have hundreds of players and dozens of staff members who create history each and every day and this makes keeping track of things hard. There is a reason people devote their lives to history in the real world - there is a lot of it, it's hard to keep track of, and different perspectives result in different versions.

I like to argue about history quite a bit, but there is a reason I'm not getting my PhD. in it. I'd had enough when I got my BA.

All that said, we need to end the arguments over outcast history. If people want to be constructive, outstanding. If you want to argue with me about it, email me or each other. I'll even answer your letters, I promise.

~GM Aurdun
Barbarians' Guild Advocate
Gor'Tog Co-Champion
History Guru

[Aurdun] Why won't they just accept things I tell them point blank?
[Zeyurn] Obviously that would be cheating.

>>that was a choice made so as not to let down the folks who had gotten so actively involved on the so called bad guys side. So often we see people say gosh I wish playing a non-good aligned character had more perks well that is why the outcasts didn't go away to start with and from there the PC ones have grown.

this is the problem most players have with outcasts as they stand today. they want to be affiliated, they want to be part of that interesting non-good aligned side but they also want to be snuggled and cuddled and was it Armifer that said it not too long ago.. They want to have their evil cake and eat it too.


~Arwinia

The Empath spellbook is a riddle trapped in an enigma hidden inside a lot of suck.-Armifer

Documentation is always appreciated. :)

~GM Aurdun
Barbarians' Guild Advocate
Gor'Tog Co-Champion
History Guru

[Aurdun] Why won't they just accept things I tell them point blank?
[Zeyurn] Obviously that would be cheating.

>>I'm working on that, I hate snuggles.

Raenilar needs to go after Shard again, forcing Gyfford into a pinch. Does he act for the Outcasts or for Ilithi! Mwahahaha... Or not at all infuriating Ilithi even more. nod

Though yes I'd love to see more evilness out of the Outcasts they need to be evils *shakes fist*

>>I'm working on that, I hate snuggles.

Porcupine suits! Who really wants to snuggle a porcupine?


Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy

A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy

I am not a historian, but....
this is what I've assumed

During the war between Tiero and Lanival, the original tribes that became the
outcasts lived in the marshlands in the region that
later became Shard. They supported Tiero. When Tiero fell,
their lands became an ideal place for supporters of
Tiero to retreat to. The marsh was not easy to follow
them into and it was easy for them to strike and then fade back
into the mists along paths they knew but their attackers
did not. The end result of this was that around the time
that Corik allied with Morganae and Teiro finally was
beheaded, an action was undertaken to bring this area
to peace. It was decided that the best thing to do
was drain most of the heart of the marsh, move the tribes
in there out of there, and give it over to Corik's people
for their home. The Elotheans needed a home. The people
in the marsh were a problem to the region. Nissa
was of course dead, as was Lirissa and thus voices that might have been heard was
not heard.

I do not imagine they were marched straight out to the
desert. Some of the tribes there probably ended up south
of Corik's wall, where they got cut off and left to die.
Some ended up being pushed into other people's territories,
where they obviously did not fare well. Some Probably ended
up heading out to the islands. (I've always thought that
perhaps part of what the Outcasts were looking for in their
search of the books on the islands was the history of
the generals of Tiero as well as the people that ended up
out there instead of going to the desert.) Certainly
Lanival's parceling of the lands in 235 would have
contributed to the pushing out of these lost tribes that
now found themselves with no home. I also see the slow march
north of the DP from Shard as contributing to them being
pushed north towards the desert. As you recall, by -163
the DP had taken control of most of known lands of Elanthia (this did not
include the homeland of the Rakash and Prydaen, and it did not include
the deep desert where the Outcasts were) Thus, I see
the Outcasts as being in the deep desert from that point on.
I've often wondered if the Outcast tribes had not been
removed from their marsh, if the DP would have been able
to take over the way they did. Their march did seem to
more or less follow the Outcast march south, but in reverse.
In any event, Morganae and Corik may have been
primarily responsible for taking their lands, but their
removal and the reasons behind their removal and
all the forces which pushed them north and into the
desert were a bit more complex than that.

The desert then shaped them into the people they are now.
It is a hard mistress. I'm sure, given the time involved
and the complexity of the situation, it was easier and
much more politically expedient to hold them all together
and united against one or two clearly defined enemies than
to try to track and sort out all the different forces
that conspired to bringing their people to where they
found themselves and they did have a wrong to right
against the line of Corik and the line of Morganae.
Just that it's a bit more involved than that when you
look at the whole picture.

So, any way, that's my take on the history of the whole thing,
but I'm in no way shape or form a historian, so take
it with a grain of salt. It was a time of great upheaval
and a good deal of fighting that involved much larger
groups of people. So, I'm not surprised that much did not
make the history books.

I'd love to know how accurate my take on thins is though.


--There are nights when the wolves are silent and only the moon howls.--George Carlin
--'Must you fall asleep when I am talking?'..'No, its purely voluntary'..Churchill

I find the many points of view in this discussion, very enlightening. I hope they continue.


'Ye may judge and scorn the Outcasts if ye wish. Hate them for their pride, honor and power. But know this well, they are here to stay, and will never be forgotten again.' -King Raenilar-


'Do you know what that sound is? That's the sound of a Outcast doing something, and people in this and another world are talking about it like it's the World Dragons Return. That is the way it shall be for now on.' -Wiseman Jappal-

Hey everyone. I didn't mean to dig up dead horses and start beating them when I started this thread. Clearly, there's some glaring inconsistencies with the Outcast lore when you get down to brass tacks, however I think the general idea behind it is sound, even if the math doesn't add up (I'll go ahead and blame the bards, and add in Elven longevity to boot). Basically you have a group of people that were kicked out of their homelands, and proceeded to plot revenge for a number of years. Then when they finally got their "justice", they realized that what used to be their home was simply not theirs anymore, and proceeded to pack up their tents and returned to their true home.

What I find much more fascinating at this point is how the Outcasts are currently operating. They are former "barbarians" that have sort of morphed into another province. They have earned a lot of ire and mistrust by their previous actions, so instead are attempting to do things in a "civilized" fashion, like the rest of the provinces. They've gone so far as to accept outsiders into their society, as well as eject those that are detrimental to their diplomatic well-being. They've even excelled in some "civilized" activities, such as marrying their nobles into rival factions.

Maybe it's the history major in me, but I see several parallels between the Outcasts and Japan and Germany during the colonial and First World War era. Rightfully or not, they feel entitled to receive certain acquisitions that were missed out on while they were "barbaric" or "pre-nationalized", and they're at a decisive crossroad in figuring out how they will get those acquisitions. Will they proceed to fight for them, or will they become "civilized" and use diplomacy like other provinces? Only time will tell.

---

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.

Some thoughts to toss out there that I have been mulling but have not had a chance to really fact check. I will try to be a brief as possible; if anyone wants to go into details I would be happy to entertain a history discussion via email or in game. I apologize for the length and if you don’t want to read I would be happy to discuss this in game (since that is more fun than posting).

As far as the push to the desert, I have seen this happening in two ways. Now I am assuming, based on the timelines I have seen, that Shard was founded and therefore the Outcast ancestral group forced from that area during a time of large scale conflict. One question is how this went unrecorded. I can think of two possibilities. One, which entails the least amount of contact with others, is the Outcast went to the desert via a now lost passage from Ilithi. The other, which entails greater contact, would infer they did move through the provinces. However, it is possible as they came from more closed communities, they would not interact much with the city folk. In addition, if this was a time of war, they may have well blended in with the rest of the refugees and displaced peoples. Some may have even given up and blended into the Celestial, River and Forest Elf communities.

Once in the desert I believe some of the mechanisms that would have been essential end up becoming transformative. There are concepts of polygamy and adoption within the Outcast that differ to a degree from the normal aspects and I feel would enter the Outcast world view at the same time.

Both would have been necessary for survival. Polygamy would have allowed for non-combatant women to be integrated into the Outcast society after their tribe would have been conquered. This would have replenished losses from migration early on and the addition of local women would have enhanced the knowledge base in terms of desert survival.

Adoption would have allowed the integration of friendlier peoples and conquered peoples into Outcast society. A society at constant war, as the Outcasts appear to have been earlier on in the desert, would require a means to replenish its warrior base. Adoption would allow for the addition of combat aged people as well as children.

Due to the influx of new blood I think it would have been necessary for Outcast rule and laws to become those that were experienced in more recent times. Absolute and severe punishment would have encouraged quick integration and for those that could not integrate, a quick removal, to or from the Tribe. Myth and folk lore would reflect this and I could easily see by the second elven generation, the first born in the desert, this new world view of life in the desert would be established. Mainly, in my opinion, due to the oral tradition replacing written word since a bias towards literacy would have impeded the integration of adopted and married members. After a hundred or so years of saying it, even those not born to the desert would have bought into it.

I feel this extends into the current political outlook in many ways. The concept of marriage as a political tool is not unique or confined only to the Outcasts.

The use of adoption as a political tool however is different in some ways. Though adopting people into the tribe the Outcasts have been able to keep a presence in the provinces while not needed to further commit resources from the core tribe. In addition, through alliances, their position is geographically secured and they are able to commit more time to softer diplomacy.

I do not see it as much in the light of becoming civilized, as you are inferring all the colorful history of the provinces is "civilized" with all the intrigue and murder and mayhem. I see it as more adaptive. When they first attacked, they had the upper hand, so diplomacy was irrelevant. By the time of departing Shard and heading back to the desert, it would have been much more necessary.

The Outcasts have played their hand well, I feel. They now have allies to buffer their borders and adopted members amongst their enemies and new friends. All at little post war cost.

Once again these are just brief thoughts that have taken too much space in this post. Feel free to approach Lomelinde in game or email me. If any of you Elanthia history buffs have any extra insight or comments I would like to hear them too.

<<i'd more compare them to the horde of ghenis khan, who spread their conquests into much of the world, and threatened both the western nations and those of the middle east, but then sort of either intermarried with the locals, settled down, or withdrew back to their own lands.

I would agree, except as you pointed out the Mongols basically disappeared into obscurity, whereas like it or not, the Outcasts remain one of the more powerful factions in the game, almost comparable to a new province.

---

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.

>>hmm, maybe they're more visible in prime then. in plat we haven't heard a peep from the outcasts since they withdrew from shard.

Oh, yeah, lol! That would definitely be the reason for how we see it differently.

---

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.

Cake walks, not bake sales.

-- Player of Szrael --

---

"Necromancy is Bad" (GM Armifer)

<<Dont know how much sense this would make being that the lore has always been that the tribes are made up of both humans, elves, and skra. Doesnt seem like the type of people Tiero's followers would be hanging with. IIRC there are also hybrids as well in the tribes.

There are also several Prydaens, Gor'togs and Kaldar who apparently identify as such, currently also.



a faded arzumos hide scroll. It is very old... something about a road or journey. The writing is not clearly in a language that is understood. The badly worn and faded, the tattered hide depicts a line of Elves being forcibly marched away from a small island upon which a new city is being built. Almost all are burdened with heavy packs, overloaded carts and small children. The scroll has on it writing that reads: "Yol Malcisen... Uskela'jama..."

Basically it sounds like they were mostly Elven or appeared so to start, this suggests to me though that perhaps they were those Elves who had mixed heritage, or who were inter-marrying other races. It is possible technically (alibeit difficult) for an Elf to produce offspring with any of the eleven races other than Prydaen, S'kra or Gor'tog. If the Queen and Corik wanted a City for Elves and Elotheans, this may have been an issue in part.


I wasn't around back then play wise, during the Outcast war so feel free to snipe at me as you wish, it may be a ridiculous idea.



Celitha