Curious how many all the other thieving rangers out there are doing as far as secondary pool with higher levels of stealing. In my experience because we don't have the fabulous stealing boostin khris I can steal items often times half that value of what a thief can, leaving me with less exp to be gained per shop while still having a nice large survival pool to fill. While I think this is a fair deal, I'm having a hard time filling the secondary pool to maximize its usefulness. Anyone else having issues?

I'm stealing from every shop which will teach me in the crossings, tiger, wolf, knife, arthe, kaerna, riverhaven, rossmans, lang, elbains, and therenborough. I'll get an item or two depending on difficulty and likelyhood to get caught. I wouldn't say its very risky, only getting caught maybe once every 6 runs or so. I only upgrade to a more difficult item once my current item has become too 'trivial'. I'd guess approx 60-70 items per run.

Anyone got any tricks, advice, or good stealing runs to share?


Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Ragran's pockets and carefully grab a platinum.
Roundtime: 2 sec.

Steal from hiding, use SOTT, CS, and EM. Take more risks for more exp, but of course there are downsides to that. CJs are good if you can afford them.

Agility and Discipline boosters if you want to steal better.

Also remember to hide so you can let your hide/stalk skills provide a little boost.

-Z

> Agility and Discipline boosters if you want to steal better.

Excellent, I know I cast WOTP for a good reason before a stealing run.

~Hanryu Ves'Shomis
Sword of House Calibanor, Ambassador of the Ilithi Court, Emerald Knight, Keeper of the CEC, ... still a Ranger
http://www.kynevon.info/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls

> I've always been afraid of nerve damage badness.

I can hold 20 mana indefinitely (on the order of hours) with no nerve damage. It slips but slips don't equal nerve damage unless you're holding more than you can handle. For reference I'm at 386 harness. Take the normal precautions of fully healed and harnessing in chunks in a good mana room to preserve your attunment. Every time you see slip just harness back the mana you lost. If your front end allows it, set up squelch/replace strings such as :

tiny amount of mana = tiny amount of mana (1)
little amount of mana = little amount of mana (2)
etc.

~Hanryu Ves'Shomis
Sword of House Calibanor, Ambassador of the Ilithi Court, Emerald Knight, Keeper of the CEC, ... still a Ranger
http://www.kynevon.info/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls

>Can you elaborate on what size boost it is?<

The amount of hiding and stalking that matters is limited to a certain percent of your stealing. Anything above that doesn't help or hurt.

>Would a 100 rank hiding CJ make a noticeable difference in stealing something, for example?<

If your stealing and hiding were both very high and equal, yes.

-Z

>At a much (MUCH) lower skill rank: 57 (hiding and stalking average ~120) I was just able to fill the secondary pool:

You feel that for the moment you've learned all you can about undermining the corrupt order of society.

i know this might sound like a nOOb question, but im not really into stealing so i dont know anything bout it. but what is this "secondary pool" everyone keeps talkin about? is it something that once filled you cant learn anymore or something? if so, what factors into filling it? also....i know i just said im not into stealing, but if i became so inclined to take my 19 ranks and try and improve upon them, what would be a good way? my hide/stalk average is about 150 if that matters.


~Artilius

yes that made sense. thank you for the explanation and the info. i might have to try that stuff out a bit later.


~Artilius

<<This results in you learning "new" experience in stealing skill even a while after you stopped stealing.>>

All I see behind this mechanic's intent is slowing down the rate of learning of all non-thief guilds.


~Van

Van,

Actually i see it as a way to train stealing more easily. People dont have to steal non stop to keep it locked... can just go on stealing run and the secondary pool will make sure your stealing is constantly receiving new experience for a while (i heard 45 minutes, if its full). At my skill level, at least, i can run a 5 minute shopping spree and keep it locked (except on post walls) for well over 30 minutes. Close to wall ranks its still muddled++ when im ready to go on my next shopping spree one hour after the previous. In the meantime i can train survivals or hunt :)

PS: Question... anyone know how long it takes shopkeepers to "forget" we were there (time we should wait before going back to shop some more)? I wait 1 hour. Can it be less?

From Zeyurn's original post:

>>The crux of the changes are these:

- An entirely new algorithm has been written for shop stealing. Shop stealing will be available to all PCs from as little as 0-1 ranks in the skill. It will be be a viable training method for anyone right from the get-go, Thief or otherwise.

- Experience gained via Stealing is being fundamentally changed. Your personal difficulty towards the item is going to play a much bigger role in stealing experience than it did before. In general, 99% of people should be experiencing greater experience gain. Also, repeated steals in a shop will be worth more.

- The formula for determining the penalty on repeat steals is vastly different. In general, attempts on more valuable merchandise is going to attract more notice to you, succeed or fail, than attempts on less valuable merchandise.

- The amount of time before you can steal without penalty in the same shop is being drastically increased, to an hour. And before you start screaming too loudly..

- The amount of experience gained from stealing, in general, is going to be dramatically increased. Constant steal runs should not be necessary to lock the skill.

- The chance of critical failure, snake-eyes, has been reduced by a factor of ten. Combined with the above, it should be possible to steal smartly and barely ever receive a warrant, if you so choose. HOWEVER, stealing for maximum exp may be slightly riskier, to compensate for the fact that you will need much fewer items to get the needed experience. In general, I expect far fewer warrants.<<

>>All I see behind this mechanic's intent is slowing down the rate of learning of all non-thief guilds.

It actually improved the rate of learning for all other guilds by the same amount it improved it for thieves.

>>is the secondary pool smaller than a normal surival skill pool? What is the reasoning behind having a secondary pool? What increases pool size and drain?

Much much larger. I've never heard a set number (especially the 400%, point us to that post please?), though it would be easy to test. Time a ML-clear on a regular skill, then ML-clear on a filled stealing pool. Mechanics for pool size and drain are the same as regular pools. The why is a complicated mix between thief guild stealing requirements, the increasing penalties for shop stealing, and the pawnshop mechanics. I think it has to do with the number of high-circle thieves that could only learn in Muspar'i, so going to another province while stealing fines cooled down wasn't an option.

Is there any type of list put together for lower ranks of stealing like the 10-30 range for rangers or non thiefs? I know EM and SOTT help but so far I've only found like 2-3 items I can steal in crossing without getting caught. Even just a rough guess would work for me.

How do you tell the price range? and thanks

<<Also, the stealing change definitely has not made it harder to learn stealing for non-thieves. I've gained about half my ranks pre change, and half after. The difference is astouding how much easier it is now.>>

Maybe so. Most of mine are still pre change.

I can understand why people like it. It makes it so you don't have to steal as much. Which is what I feel is the actual intent. I believe they were growing weary of the sheer amounts of item pawnage that was going on.

I think most of it's benefits still lie in the increased awarded exp and increased ease of success, and not so much the secondary pool. The secondary pool I more or less view as a secondary wait for my gains. But this really depends on how the exp is awarded. How much exp goes to primary, and how much to secondary. From my experience, most of it definitely goes to secondary. I don't really lock stealing off of actual stealing(stop around muddled to perplexing), it's usually the secondary flow that kicks me up to mind lock.

This can be good and bad. There is definite appeal in the ability to walk away and start training something else. But this can also be said for just straight locking, and walking off to something else. Except that I'd at least be immediately draining, not waiting for a secondary pool to flow into my primary, and then wait for my primary to drain to my ranks.

So yes, you don't have to steal as much, and you feel like you're continuing to learn. If you steal too much though, the secondary flow will murk up your mind. Which has happened to me a few times in the begining. You need to balance it fairly well. Because a constant flow of exp that messes up your mind, can hurt you for as long as it can help you as well. And your waiting a little longer to see your gains. But I guess this is applied to everyone.

So as I mentioned, I believe it's the sheer exp increase that is really the benefit. But they don't want you locking from 5 steals every 10 minutes. So they added in a secondary drain, to slow down the actual gain. The overall effect, less people wandering around stealing and pawning tons of items at a time. Just my perspective and opinion on it.


~Van

Ah, ok. That clarifies a lot actually. I was wondering if there was a difference between pilfering and pickpocketing. At least I thought I was noticing one. Thanks Z.


~Van

>How do you tell what your able to steal roughly without going through and trying a random number of things and going to jail all the time

the short answer: that's the only way.

the long answer: use the shopping catalog website http://elanthia.theflightline.net/ and look at each shop in the town you're choosing. using the old standard of stealing ranks x 10 = kronar value of hardest item to try (meaning if you have 50 ranks, 50x10=500 copper kronar limit), find those items within your range.

since stealing was rewritten, you now have to look at what items you're thinking about and consider size and weight probabilities. if there's a robe that costs 250 and a hat that costs 400, the hat will probably be easier since the robe is larger and heavier.

when i have to rewrite my stealing runs after gaining ranks, i do that every time. look at the shops, see what might be stealable, add it in. then run it. take notes on what you get caught on. wait an hour. run it again. if you get caught on those things again, and you think the value is decent for your skill, it's probably just a harder item to steal. take that item out of your run.

if you're going into this thinking that it'll be very easy and you'll never go to jail because the rewrite made everyone superawesome, you're in for a shock. EXPECT to get caught. EXPECT to pay increasing fines. EXPECT to spend a good bit of time on your runs if you truly want to get a good bunch of ranks in stealing.

hope this helps.

-Ace

The price of an item in a shop has no bearing on stealing difficulty, so while The Shopping Catalog is a decent resource to start with, it can be misleading. Only the appraisal price and the wight (there is no "size" factor) matter in determining stealing difficulty. To help answer the perennial question of what can I steal, I posted my excel sheet on the wiki. Not sure if others have stared filling things in yet.

At about 120 ranks I was able to steal anything who's weight + app price (from now on StealFactor) was less than 600. I could get a few items near 800 StealFactor. Weight does factor higher than price though, so of two items who's StealFactor were both 800, but one was 20 stones heavier would be harder to steal. Now at 135 I can pick up anything with less than 700 steal factor without a problem.

As to the question of steal 1 hard thing or 2 moderately hard things, my stealing runs have me making at least 4 grabs from most shops. For me, I fill pools faster and more safely by making multiple grabs of moderate difficulty, versus making 1 grab at the absolute limit of my ability.

I encourage everyone to fill in the missing parts of the Stealing List:

http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Stealing_List

~Hanryu Ves'Shomis
Sword of House Calibanor, Ambassador of the Ilithi Court, Emerald Knight, Keeper of the CEC, ... still a Ranger
http://www.kynevon.info/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls

>I thought size plays an issue too?

The Great Z, put a rest to any myths such as item size and shopkeeper perception. Much <3 for straight answers!

~Hanryu Ves'Shomis
Sword of House Calibanor, Ambassador of the Ilithi Court, Emerald Knight, Keeper of the CEC, ... still a Ranger
http://www.kynevon.info/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls

backing down i count as a lucky thing. its a failure that you didn't get caught on though, so one less warrent on the records. I take it as meaning i'm at the edge of that item's grab, so maybe that second or third grab isn't worth it.

Jalika


Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Ragran's pockets and carefully grab a platinum.
Roundtime: 2 sec.