Previous
I'm not sure if this counts for what you are looking for, though this snipe bug has been around since the 3.0 changes. I know it has been brought up before in the combat forums. I don't think it has any affect on the attack (hopefully?), though as I said, it has been around a long time.
The Xala'shar thrall notices your attempt to remain hidden while firing your battle longbow!
The Xala'shar thrall discovers you, ruining your hiding place!
< With pathetic timing, you Electricity an ice-adder arrow at a hulking Xala'shar thrall. A hulking Xala'shar thrall fails to evade.
The arrow lands an extremely heavy (10/23) hit that sends the ice-adder arrow a hand's length into the thrall's left thigh.
The ice-adder arrow lodges itself shallowly into the Xala'shar thrall!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
< Moving in like a timid schoolboy, you snipe an ice-adder arrow at a hulking Xala'shar thrall. A hulking Xala'shar thrall barely fails to block with scarred arm.
The arrow lands a powerful (11/23) strike that smacks heavily into the thrall's chest causing its eyes to bulge, lightly stunning it.
The ice-adder arrow lodges itself shallowly into the Xala'shar thrall!
[You're solidly balanced and in very strong position.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
- Player of Saracus
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Elanthiprofiles - http://elanthiprofiles.com - Show off your numbers!
Outlander - http://outlanderapp.com - Mac game client.
MCBRIDEJ
MCBRIDEJ
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/11/2015 09:17 PM CST
>What I'm hearing is, ideally, MON should work in any room because you are "carrying a piece of wilderness" with you that permeates the area around you and should last longer. Am I hitting this correctly?
> I dislike that it doesn't give any boost in highly urban areas. What's the point then? - Jalika
Agree 100% to this.
- Player of Saracus
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Elanthiprofiles - http://elanthiprofiles.com - Show off your numbers!
Outlander - http://outlanderapp.com - Mac game client.
> I dislike that it doesn't give any boost in highly urban areas. What's the point then? - Jalika
Agree 100% to this.
- Player of Saracus
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Elanthiprofiles - http://elanthiprofiles.com - Show off your numbers!
Outlander - http://outlanderapp.com - Mac game client.
KDAKKARD
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/12/2015 12:26 AM CST
>Elanthia to Imbue - Are there other uses that could be identified?
Maybe this beseech "slot" could just get overhauled into something useful. Do we really need to magic zen our rock to be able to mark a trail?
Didn't this beseech allow non-rangers to use the rock to "interpret" ranger signs?
-KD
Maybe this beseech "slot" could just get overhauled into something useful. Do we really need to magic zen our rock to be able to mark a trail?
Didn't this beseech allow non-rangers to use the rock to "interpret" ranger signs?
-KD
LAWREYJRJ7
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/12/2015 06:14 AM CST
Actually need to correct a few things here.
// Scouting
<<Heard on scripts/automapper being faster. I think when the ferries and such were adjusted down, Ranger trails were not looked into. What other things slow the trails down besides wounds?>>
Trails were worked on for 3.0 I helped them do it. But the goal was to make them actually train again which they do ever so slowly. If not for the changes I helped test they would be teaching absolutely nothing right now. Scouting itself does not do much other then allow you to track a critter you are shooting with a bow and if it leaves the room track to it. Training scouting once you get over 500 skill starts to get painful as the only way to really do it is with HUNT and that 70 second timer on it means you are not going to train it well unless you spend a really long time in combat. Or are going into an area where you really cant kill fast enough to survive long.
// Ranger Bonus
<<Ideally, is it just that MON needs to have a longer duration, or that the drain of bonus needs to be slower to facilitate event participation for Rangers?>>
MON needs a longer duration bad. 40 min at max cast is almost worthless to me. So much so I dont ever see me getting that spell at this point. But that is not the worst problem with the ranger bonus. Every beseech because of the 3.0/3.1 changes now requires a full bonus to complete or nearly so. Yet nearly every single spot in all hunting areas had the wilderness bonus reduced. To give you an example there are maybe 3 spots on Aesery that have a decent ranger bonus (this is where beseech dark to sing requires you to go). Two of those 3 spots with decent bonus are not top bonus and cause your bonus to drop below full making it so you cant do the quest. You actually have to go into the ranger guild on aesry and wait till your bonus is full then use MON if you have it by then and most dont. And then get to the quest before your bonus drops. Every single beseech has this problem of almost no full bonus rooms nearby. Yet a couple of them are in wilderness areas that are well no longer wilderness because they were all downgraded wilderness bonus wise during the changes to 3.0/3.1 and the changes prior to that as well. Kind of incrementally downgrading them. As a result you can go to a hunting area and finish hunting and not have a full ranger bonus.
// Beseeches
Note all the beseeches require a decent charisma. If you have low charisma the duration is shorter and the spirit hit is even bigger when you do it.
<<Sun to Dry - Probably a consequence of the changing systems and should be updated to be more ideal.>>
Sad thing I think this was intended. The sun to dry beseech actually dries better quality than using the crushers in the society buildings but not as good as a pyramid. Makes this a mid level choice but its not as good as using pyramids which makes it fairly useless. In addition when you have say 70 count of dried jadice flowers at 99 quality and combine it with 5 count of beseech dried flowers you basically reduce the whole stack with a large drop in quality, making using the beseech useless for crafting.
<<Elanthia to Imbue - Are there other uses that could be identified?>>
Only thing its good for right now is personal trail markers which are worthless for training so its only used for quick exits to areas that are real pain to move through. It also let someone else see ranger signs and understand what it meant from one room away. I can think of something that might be interesting. Say imbue something for enchanting (enchanting craft). Could be an interesting use for this.
<<Wind to Clean - What other potential uses could be worked into this?>>
This one is pretty useless. But some history here. The whole reason compost was moved to 0 slots is folks used this rather than get compost anymore. now that compost does not cost anything slot wise and is the only utility trainer we have for young folks it gets used again and this beseech never sees the light of day. Maybe you could turn this into some kind of wind barrier from ranged weapon attacks.
<<Elanthia to Cradle - What does this do and why is it not being used anymore?>>
This still gets used by people. Not me so much anymore as I rarely get the time to hunt anymore. But it stops all bleeding (external and internal) if you can find an area with enough wilderness bonus and let me tell you right now. You can die trying to find one. They are rear and getting rarer. Once in place you can apply a herb and start to reduce the damage and hopefully survive.
<<Wind to Preserve - What's the primary function? Was this an older alchemy system use that's not needed now?>>
Primary function of this was to preserve meat for wolves. The only thing its good for right now is preserving flowers, which I have done for folks. It does use up spirit so much you cant do it for long. Its entire use was geared to preserve meat for wolves originally but it does not last a full hour, which is the cycle for wolves to eat. So you had to feed the wolf and then wait a bit to get meat so it would not go bad before the next feeding.
<<Elanthia to Petrify - How much hindrance is gained? Can the hindrance be lowered in any way?>>
This basically thickens your armor in the past it was a huge bonus but had such a short duration most folks refused to use it because it took such a huge spirit hit to put up. When things started to change around 2.0 the bonus to the armor was really limited and the hinder factor went way up with no duration increase making it completely useless. Then in 3.0 it changed again and its duration was upped but as everyone knows it does not thicken the armor much anymore because of the caps but does manage to increase the hinder factor and the duration increased again. But well if you got the top of the line armor its just going to hinder you more and provide nothing else but a spirit hit before combat.
<<Dark to Sing - What's the stun/collapse like? How long?>>
The stun is complete the duration (never really checked) but it appears to be based on your stamina. So more stamina less stun time. If you get this in combat might as well call a cleric and empath team cuz you going to need it. If your big enough you can take a couple hits with this and get up and get out of the way. I've done it with 60 stamina. If you do not have a decent 40+ stamina. Prepare to depart.
<<Water to Solidify - If the Ranger has low Athletics, does the water also drag them? Should solid water work for non-Rangers in the Ranger's group?>>
No this lets the ranger walk on water period. I think it was set up this way based on how moon mages could take others on the ways. If added party did not have the concentration they pretty much died in the ways. While in the water we could at least get them out and they would not die so it was a trend in how special travel like that worked. I used it for me a lot but never used it for other folks. Because I had to rely on their athletics to get them through. If they had enough to get through with athletics they sure did not need to come with me. They could have just done it with a back stroke and did not need me to get them through.
<<Wind to Refresh - What does it do?>>
This is a refresh of your vitality. But to get it you have to use align 31, which is a huge hit on your spirit. The conversion ratio of spirit to vitality is inefficient, so use caution when using this beseech. This means the spirit you use may not translate into a lot of vitality increase and that means why are you using it? If you have a bad bleeder and are using it to keep your vitality up you are better off using elanthia to cradle if you can actually find a place it works in time. I personally never use it anymore. Can get me killed way to fast because of the spirit hit.
<<Wind to Echo - Presuming this is a low-grade private messaging system that's one way, what would be a good way to expand it and make it useful? Is the cost too high? Does it take too long? How's the cooldown?>> I just use a ring here. Most folks don't even notice the messaging because the few times i did use it the person had to scroll up to find out what I said. Gee I never noticed that. Its just never used.
<<Elanthia to Transfer - What does this do and how high is the cost? At what point is your bonus too low?>>
This requires an align of 45 which is a huge spirit hit. Just massive. The sad part is if you increase the align it does nothing to add to the bonus. Absolutely nothing. And it gets worse from there as it has a cool down in real time of at least 6 hours. There are 16 levels of your bonus messaging. Near as I can tell and I have notes where I checked down to level 11. Yet at level 12 someone else could not recover the bonus fully. I have always suspected charisma level affects this too. So its hard to pinpoint.
// bonus, wish it wouldnt fluctuate as rapidly as it does
<<What's the timing like?>>
According to what was supposed to happen the bonus would take over 100 minutes to drop from max high to max minimum. So far I don't think that is the case as I have made tools for folks and went from max bonus to the level of the room in under 40 minutes making Memory of Nature something I wont ever get.
// Spells
If you want to get rid of spells, I suggest you replace ForestWalkers Boon or make it actually do something to more critters. Never seen a more useless spell. Works on so few critters in the lands its like adding a lead weight to your spell selection. It was added to the spell list for an extra spell to train warding as we had so few warding spells. You know when I tested this during the 3.0 spell tests the one thing my notes have that I never went back to check was if you actually learned anything casting this with no critter in the room which it did not in test. That means you have essence of yew or bear strength to work with. And you might end up with situations where a armadillo hunter would have to stand in cougars casting the spell to train with and that is if the spell trains when you are so far over the critter skill wise. Right now I'm not willing to select this spell to see if it trains with no critter in the room.
<<What are all the ways you can currently lose a companion?>>
Going on ferries/barges/boats. Climbing undergondola with it out. Running any ranger trail. Pretty much most of the really hard maze areas. Going through the gear gate with it on the ground. Bad meat for wolves. Oh and about the gear gate. Anyone with a horse who tries to ride through the gear gate or lead it through the gear gate has the horse stabled and all horse gear lost permanently and well the horse never gets through the gate as it ends up in the stables.
// CRAFTING
This is where rangers got the shaft. These are lores. And we train lores like we were in quicksand. Just don't tell anyone a ranger has 1000 in scholarship (I mean I'm teaching young folks 24/7 so its up there but it takes 3 weeks of 24/7 to move it a rank). Any ranger who has tried to move a lore at 600 skill knows how hard that really is now compared to working with mech lore in the past. We had at one point a perk for making bows (hunter's bows), and being really good skinners could make decent leather armor because we had a slight bonus to learning mech lore. But now we get hit with a huge penalty as we have no bonus to anything other than a couple free techs in areas that are like pulling teeth to train at higher levels. There are two tertiary lore professions. Barbarian and ranger. Barbarians are weapon professionals and train lores like rangers do... in quicksand. Yet any lore primary person will make better weapons than they will in short order (even secondary lore folks). The only thing that helps is the older people had a lot of mech lore and at least could get one craft with a lot of skill up front without having to work it there. So we have some rangers and barbarians with decent skill in crafting. Those that have to work to the levels of the older folks who converted skill are going to find that very difficult.
The only part of the crafting system we came out in was in supplying ingredients. Two of the 3 key skills outdoorsmanship and perception are in our primary skill set survival. The third is another lore (appraisal). But we can work the first two so high quickly the third one comes along due to how they work together in order to find lumber, herbs, ores, etc. There are two areas that appear to be niches for rangers and barbarians. Lumber and leather for rangers, and metals and stone for barbarians. That is not to say no other professions might not have something in some of the same areas but if you want to keep interest in something you tend to train that which you can train best. Based on what I see right now I have come the conclusion that rangers should train every craft to 300 and then quit and then concentrate on getting the materials needed for crafting. Some will have much higher skill than 300 because of converting mech lore, some will continue to work one area because they like it, but if I were to start a ranger from scratch that is probably all i would be willing to put to the effort.
Ranger Pfanston and his soggy pup.
// Scouting
<<Heard on scripts/automapper being faster. I think when the ferries and such were adjusted down, Ranger trails were not looked into. What other things slow the trails down besides wounds?>>
Trails were worked on for 3.0 I helped them do it. But the goal was to make them actually train again which they do ever so slowly. If not for the changes I helped test they would be teaching absolutely nothing right now. Scouting itself does not do much other then allow you to track a critter you are shooting with a bow and if it leaves the room track to it. Training scouting once you get over 500 skill starts to get painful as the only way to really do it is with HUNT and that 70 second timer on it means you are not going to train it well unless you spend a really long time in combat. Or are going into an area where you really cant kill fast enough to survive long.
// Ranger Bonus
<<Ideally, is it just that MON needs to have a longer duration, or that the drain of bonus needs to be slower to facilitate event participation for Rangers?>>
MON needs a longer duration bad. 40 min at max cast is almost worthless to me. So much so I dont ever see me getting that spell at this point. But that is not the worst problem with the ranger bonus. Every beseech because of the 3.0/3.1 changes now requires a full bonus to complete or nearly so. Yet nearly every single spot in all hunting areas had the wilderness bonus reduced. To give you an example there are maybe 3 spots on Aesery that have a decent ranger bonus (this is where beseech dark to sing requires you to go). Two of those 3 spots with decent bonus are not top bonus and cause your bonus to drop below full making it so you cant do the quest. You actually have to go into the ranger guild on aesry and wait till your bonus is full then use MON if you have it by then and most dont. And then get to the quest before your bonus drops. Every single beseech has this problem of almost no full bonus rooms nearby. Yet a couple of them are in wilderness areas that are well no longer wilderness because they were all downgraded wilderness bonus wise during the changes to 3.0/3.1 and the changes prior to that as well. Kind of incrementally downgrading them. As a result you can go to a hunting area and finish hunting and not have a full ranger bonus.
// Beseeches
Note all the beseeches require a decent charisma. If you have low charisma the duration is shorter and the spirit hit is even bigger when you do it.
<<Sun to Dry - Probably a consequence of the changing systems and should be updated to be more ideal.>>
Sad thing I think this was intended. The sun to dry beseech actually dries better quality than using the crushers in the society buildings but not as good as a pyramid. Makes this a mid level choice but its not as good as using pyramids which makes it fairly useless. In addition when you have say 70 count of dried jadice flowers at 99 quality and combine it with 5 count of beseech dried flowers you basically reduce the whole stack with a large drop in quality, making using the beseech useless for crafting.
<<Elanthia to Imbue - Are there other uses that could be identified?>>
Only thing its good for right now is personal trail markers which are worthless for training so its only used for quick exits to areas that are real pain to move through. It also let someone else see ranger signs and understand what it meant from one room away. I can think of something that might be interesting. Say imbue something for enchanting (enchanting craft). Could be an interesting use for this.
<<Wind to Clean - What other potential uses could be worked into this?>>
This one is pretty useless. But some history here. The whole reason compost was moved to 0 slots is folks used this rather than get compost anymore. now that compost does not cost anything slot wise and is the only utility trainer we have for young folks it gets used again and this beseech never sees the light of day. Maybe you could turn this into some kind of wind barrier from ranged weapon attacks.
<<Elanthia to Cradle - What does this do and why is it not being used anymore?>>
This still gets used by people. Not me so much anymore as I rarely get the time to hunt anymore. But it stops all bleeding (external and internal) if you can find an area with enough wilderness bonus and let me tell you right now. You can die trying to find one. They are rear and getting rarer. Once in place you can apply a herb and start to reduce the damage and hopefully survive.
<<Wind to Preserve - What's the primary function? Was this an older alchemy system use that's not needed now?>>
Primary function of this was to preserve meat for wolves. The only thing its good for right now is preserving flowers, which I have done for folks. It does use up spirit so much you cant do it for long. Its entire use was geared to preserve meat for wolves originally but it does not last a full hour, which is the cycle for wolves to eat. So you had to feed the wolf and then wait a bit to get meat so it would not go bad before the next feeding.
<<Elanthia to Petrify - How much hindrance is gained? Can the hindrance be lowered in any way?>>
This basically thickens your armor in the past it was a huge bonus but had such a short duration most folks refused to use it because it took such a huge spirit hit to put up. When things started to change around 2.0 the bonus to the armor was really limited and the hinder factor went way up with no duration increase making it completely useless. Then in 3.0 it changed again and its duration was upped but as everyone knows it does not thicken the armor much anymore because of the caps but does manage to increase the hinder factor and the duration increased again. But well if you got the top of the line armor its just going to hinder you more and provide nothing else but a spirit hit before combat.
<<Dark to Sing - What's the stun/collapse like? How long?>>
The stun is complete the duration (never really checked) but it appears to be based on your stamina. So more stamina less stun time. If you get this in combat might as well call a cleric and empath team cuz you going to need it. If your big enough you can take a couple hits with this and get up and get out of the way. I've done it with 60 stamina. If you do not have a decent 40+ stamina. Prepare to depart.
<<Water to Solidify - If the Ranger has low Athletics, does the water also drag them? Should solid water work for non-Rangers in the Ranger's group?>>
No this lets the ranger walk on water period. I think it was set up this way based on how moon mages could take others on the ways. If added party did not have the concentration they pretty much died in the ways. While in the water we could at least get them out and they would not die so it was a trend in how special travel like that worked. I used it for me a lot but never used it for other folks. Because I had to rely on their athletics to get them through. If they had enough to get through with athletics they sure did not need to come with me. They could have just done it with a back stroke and did not need me to get them through.
<<Wind to Refresh - What does it do?>>
This is a refresh of your vitality. But to get it you have to use align 31, which is a huge hit on your spirit. The conversion ratio of spirit to vitality is inefficient, so use caution when using this beseech. This means the spirit you use may not translate into a lot of vitality increase and that means why are you using it? If you have a bad bleeder and are using it to keep your vitality up you are better off using elanthia to cradle if you can actually find a place it works in time. I personally never use it anymore. Can get me killed way to fast because of the spirit hit.
<<Wind to Echo - Presuming this is a low-grade private messaging system that's one way, what would be a good way to expand it and make it useful? Is the cost too high? Does it take too long? How's the cooldown?>> I just use a ring here. Most folks don't even notice the messaging because the few times i did use it the person had to scroll up to find out what I said. Gee I never noticed that. Its just never used.
<<Elanthia to Transfer - What does this do and how high is the cost? At what point is your bonus too low?>>
This requires an align of 45 which is a huge spirit hit. Just massive. The sad part is if you increase the align it does nothing to add to the bonus. Absolutely nothing. And it gets worse from there as it has a cool down in real time of at least 6 hours. There are 16 levels of your bonus messaging. Near as I can tell and I have notes where I checked down to level 11. Yet at level 12 someone else could not recover the bonus fully. I have always suspected charisma level affects this too. So its hard to pinpoint.
// bonus, wish it wouldnt fluctuate as rapidly as it does
<<What's the timing like?>>
According to what was supposed to happen the bonus would take over 100 minutes to drop from max high to max minimum. So far I don't think that is the case as I have made tools for folks and went from max bonus to the level of the room in under 40 minutes making Memory of Nature something I wont ever get.
// Spells
If you want to get rid of spells, I suggest you replace ForestWalkers Boon or make it actually do something to more critters. Never seen a more useless spell. Works on so few critters in the lands its like adding a lead weight to your spell selection. It was added to the spell list for an extra spell to train warding as we had so few warding spells. You know when I tested this during the 3.0 spell tests the one thing my notes have that I never went back to check was if you actually learned anything casting this with no critter in the room which it did not in test. That means you have essence of yew or bear strength to work with. And you might end up with situations where a armadillo hunter would have to stand in cougars casting the spell to train with and that is if the spell trains when you are so far over the critter skill wise. Right now I'm not willing to select this spell to see if it trains with no critter in the room.
<<What are all the ways you can currently lose a companion?>>
Going on ferries/barges/boats. Climbing undergondola with it out. Running any ranger trail. Pretty much most of the really hard maze areas. Going through the gear gate with it on the ground. Bad meat for wolves. Oh and about the gear gate. Anyone with a horse who tries to ride through the gear gate or lead it through the gear gate has the horse stabled and all horse gear lost permanently and well the horse never gets through the gate as it ends up in the stables.
// CRAFTING
This is where rangers got the shaft. These are lores. And we train lores like we were in quicksand. Just don't tell anyone a ranger has 1000 in scholarship (I mean I'm teaching young folks 24/7 so its up there but it takes 3 weeks of 24/7 to move it a rank). Any ranger who has tried to move a lore at 600 skill knows how hard that really is now compared to working with mech lore in the past. We had at one point a perk for making bows (hunter's bows), and being really good skinners could make decent leather armor because we had a slight bonus to learning mech lore. But now we get hit with a huge penalty as we have no bonus to anything other than a couple free techs in areas that are like pulling teeth to train at higher levels. There are two tertiary lore professions. Barbarian and ranger. Barbarians are weapon professionals and train lores like rangers do... in quicksand. Yet any lore primary person will make better weapons than they will in short order (even secondary lore folks). The only thing that helps is the older people had a lot of mech lore and at least could get one craft with a lot of skill up front without having to work it there. So we have some rangers and barbarians with decent skill in crafting. Those that have to work to the levels of the older folks who converted skill are going to find that very difficult.
The only part of the crafting system we came out in was in supplying ingredients. Two of the 3 key skills outdoorsmanship and perception are in our primary skill set survival. The third is another lore (appraisal). But we can work the first two so high quickly the third one comes along due to how they work together in order to find lumber, herbs, ores, etc. There are two areas that appear to be niches for rangers and barbarians. Lumber and leather for rangers, and metals and stone for barbarians. That is not to say no other professions might not have something in some of the same areas but if you want to keep interest in something you tend to train that which you can train best. Based on what I see right now I have come the conclusion that rangers should train every craft to 300 and then quit and then concentrate on getting the materials needed for crafting. Some will have much higher skill than 300 because of converting mech lore, some will continue to work one area because they like it, but if I were to start a ranger from scratch that is probably all i would be willing to put to the effort.
Ranger Pfanston and his soggy pup.
THAYET
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/12/2015 07:05 AM CST
The more I read about beseeches the more I feel like the system just needs to be gutted and rethought on a broader level. A lot of stuff is either nigh-useless now due to changes in various systems or doesn't feel super thematic for Rangers anymore in terms of how their stuff should work.
Example: Is it even appropriate for soul health to fuel special Ranger stuff? It feels like Rangers should be working with something else. Vitality, fatigue, possibly concentration (though maybe not to avoid overlap with Thieves) -- just bodily stuff rooted in flesh and blood.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Example: Is it even appropriate for soul health to fuel special Ranger stuff? It feels like Rangers should be working with something else. Vitality, fatigue, possibly concentration (though maybe not to avoid overlap with Thieves) -- just bodily stuff rooted in flesh and blood.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
ZALAN
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/12/2015 08:56 PM CST
I could write a novel on the harshness of the ranger life, however, I will limit to a few of the most annoying inconsistencies.
LIFE MAGIC: should be the antithesis of the undead in my opinion rather than being totally ineffective it should be more effective. Not as much as holy magic but at least up there with elemental or better.
AOE: we should be able to pull some of these off at least in wilderness where we can call on the trees to drop branches on folks and call up spawns and stuff
surely we should be able to make the things that we already have attack and damage more than one opponent.
Obviously ranger bonus is already mentioned so ill just second that.
More of a stealth bonus would be realistic
Companions should be able to span more size ranges and we should have access eventually to some that will defend us or join us somehow in combat
like how a wm can be dragged by a fam
i think an adjustment to the Align system would be nice
like if we align with certain natural elements we could see a bonus to things effected by that element like wind: align wind and get a bonus to bows and LT and also spells that use air element
align water: swimming bonus and water and ice type spells should be more effective
Align earth: climbing and hiding maybe and some appropriate spell benefit
Align forest or something: stealth maybe here, spells that have growing things involved like branch break or hareweps bonds or something
just some ideas.
-Zalan
LIFE MAGIC: should be the antithesis of the undead in my opinion rather than being totally ineffective it should be more effective. Not as much as holy magic but at least up there with elemental or better.
AOE: we should be able to pull some of these off at least in wilderness where we can call on the trees to drop branches on folks and call up spawns and stuff
surely we should be able to make the things that we already have attack and damage more than one opponent.
Obviously ranger bonus is already mentioned so ill just second that.
More of a stealth bonus would be realistic
Companions should be able to span more size ranges and we should have access eventually to some that will defend us or join us somehow in combat
like how a wm can be dragged by a fam
i think an adjustment to the Align system would be nice
like if we align with certain natural elements we could see a bonus to things effected by that element like wind: align wind and get a bonus to bows and LT and also spells that use air element
align water: swimming bonus and water and ice type spells should be more effective
Align earth: climbing and hiding maybe and some appropriate spell benefit
Align forest or something: stealth maybe here, spells that have growing things involved like branch break or hareweps bonds or something
just some ideas.
-Zalan
THAYET
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/13/2015 06:29 AM CST
>> like if we align with certain natural elements we could see a bonus to things effected by that element like wind: align wind and get a bonus to bows and LT and also spells that use air element
I like this but I think instead of straight elements (which edges too close to Bard/WM territory IMO) it would be neat if you aligned with or beseeched nature to imbue you with the aspects of certain types of animals related to the sorts of ecosystems they occupy. Not shapeshifting necessarily (though I think that may well be thematically appropriate at this point) but merely supernaturally imbuing you with their various totemic strengths. This could also be used to roll a number of beseeches that are presently little more than cantrips up into neater packages.
Air animals: Freedom, perceptiveness, communication. Ability to free yourself from entanglements (immobile/web) on a timer, the ability to PEER further than one room, bonus to SEARCH checks, group-effect see in darkness, reduced WATCH downtime and/or improved WATCH bonus, the ability to convey messages remotely using the wind, able to place a bonus to electricity protection on armor.
Water animals: Cleansing, wisdom, stamina. Poison purging on a timer, improved vit/fatigue regen, "sixth sense" against impending attacks from stealth, group-effect to temporarily ignore swimming checks, able to place a bonus to cold protection on armor.
Desert/savannah animals: Speed, hardiness, purity. Temporarily ignore blood loss (blood staunch), resistance or immunity to diseases, preserving food (through desiccation?), quicker advancement to melee from stealth, able to place a bonus to fire protection on armor.
I sort of ran out of steam before I got to forest/arboreal animals but you get the point. Align yourself to one sphere of influence, which gives you a suite of passive abilities as well as a number of active abilities you can beseech/invoke.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
I like this but I think instead of straight elements (which edges too close to Bard/WM territory IMO) it would be neat if you aligned with or beseeched nature to imbue you with the aspects of certain types of animals related to the sorts of ecosystems they occupy. Not shapeshifting necessarily (though I think that may well be thematically appropriate at this point) but merely supernaturally imbuing you with their various totemic strengths. This could also be used to roll a number of beseeches that are presently little more than cantrips up into neater packages.
Air animals: Freedom, perceptiveness, communication. Ability to free yourself from entanglements (immobile/web) on a timer, the ability to PEER further than one room, bonus to SEARCH checks, group-effect see in darkness, reduced WATCH downtime and/or improved WATCH bonus, the ability to convey messages remotely using the wind, able to place a bonus to electricity protection on armor.
Water animals: Cleansing, wisdom, stamina. Poison purging on a timer, improved vit/fatigue regen, "sixth sense" against impending attacks from stealth, group-effect to temporarily ignore swimming checks, able to place a bonus to cold protection on armor.
Desert/savannah animals: Speed, hardiness, purity. Temporarily ignore blood loss (blood staunch), resistance or immunity to diseases, preserving food (through desiccation?), quicker advancement to melee from stealth, able to place a bonus to fire protection on armor.
I sort of ran out of steam before I got to forest/arboreal animals but you get the point. Align yourself to one sphere of influence, which gives you a suite of passive abilities as well as a number of active abilities you can beseech/invoke.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
BENNETTJ13
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/13/2015 11:45 AM CST
The only problem there is that about 1/3 of the ones you listed are thief abilities.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
BADGOPHER
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/13/2015 12:21 PM CST
>The only problem there is that about 1/3 of the ones you listed are thief abilities.
I dunno. I see a lot of stealing stuff from other guilds but making it better/more passive/permanent (align to gain buffs from Tailwind permanently instead of on mana cast).
And a lot of failing to understand how DR work, as far as the lore/mechanics (undeath is not the antithesis of life in DR, it is the antithesis of holy).
I dunno. I see a lot of stealing stuff from other guilds but making it better/more passive/permanent (align to gain buffs from Tailwind permanently instead of on mana cast).
And a lot of failing to understand how DR work, as far as the lore/mechanics (undeath is not the antithesis of life in DR, it is the antithesis of holy).
THAYET
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/13/2015 03:12 PM CST
>> The only problem there is that about 1/3 of the ones you listed are thief abilities.
And? I don't see that Thieves should have unique access to things like free poison purging. It will not kill you or diminish you to share a few things with another survival primary guild.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
And? I don't see that Thieves should have unique access to things like free poison purging. It will not kill you or diminish you to share a few things with another survival primary guild.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
BADGOPHER
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/13/2015 04:49 PM CST
>And? I don't see that Thieves should have unique access to things like free poison purging. It will not kill you or diminish you to share a few things with another survival primary guild.
I'd rather not see the diminshment of thief specific perks (especially where they don't make sense; rangers are not renowned for work with toxins, in fact the opposite is true), given that rangers have access to magic. Thief specific abilities need to be more carefully curated than other guilds specifically because thieves are not on the general magic system. Same goes for barbarians.
Where a traditional magic guild can better withstand watered down abilities because they can in turn access a wide variety of crap from other guilds, thieves and barbarians don't get that. A barb can't 'borrow' a thief Khri just because they're NMUs. A ranger can, however, borrow anything he can get his hands on (which is a distinct limitation; hopefully a wider array of runes will be available).
I love the magic system, and think the distinction is important when we're comparing guild abilities across a magic/no magic border.
I'd rather not see the diminshment of thief specific perks (especially where they don't make sense; rangers are not renowned for work with toxins, in fact the opposite is true), given that rangers have access to magic. Thief specific abilities need to be more carefully curated than other guilds specifically because thieves are not on the general magic system. Same goes for barbarians.
Where a traditional magic guild can better withstand watered down abilities because they can in turn access a wide variety of crap from other guilds, thieves and barbarians don't get that. A barb can't 'borrow' a thief Khri just because they're NMUs. A ranger can, however, borrow anything he can get his hands on (which is a distinct limitation; hopefully a wider array of runes will be available).
I love the magic system, and think the distinction is important when we're comparing guild abilities across a magic/no magic border.
BENNETTJ13
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/13/2015 04:50 PM CST
You mean a few more things other than mark, slips, and snipe? And it DOES diminish the guild. We don't get reduced load, decreased hindrance, or anything else to throw us a bone for "sharing". Necros get to enjoy some freebies too. So...
All I'm saying is come up with something unique. We've been talking about losing the identities of guilds DR for a few weeks now on the boards, lets not continue down that path.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
All I'm saying is come up with something unique. We've been talking about losing the identities of guilds DR for a few weeks now on the boards, lets not continue down that path.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
THAYET
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/13/2015 04:56 PM CST
>> especially where they don't make sense; rangers are not renowned for work with toxins, in fact the opposite is true
If you want to talk about "doesn't make sense" the Thief ability doesn't make sense either. Working with toxins all day just means you get poisoned a lot, it doesn't mean your body magically becomes resistant to them.
But it's, y'know, a game, and resistance to natural poisons makes just as much sense for a Ranger to have as a Thief.
I mean, you could try making suggestions of your own?
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
If you want to talk about "doesn't make sense" the Thief ability doesn't make sense either. Working with toxins all day just means you get poisoned a lot, it doesn't mean your body magically becomes resistant to them.
But it's, y'know, a game, and resistance to natural poisons makes just as much sense for a Ranger to have as a Thief.
I mean, you could try making suggestions of your own?
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
PRIMEQ
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/13/2015 05:49 PM CST
Personally I think it makes sense for Rangers to know how to deal with toxins, because it's a part of existing in a hostile wilderness. How they eventually evolved to do that could vary, but given their access to magic it might make sense for them to use that. Thieves also had a strong incentive to learn to handle toxins and managed it in a different way.
LOTS of guilds share abilities, for different reasons. Yes, sharing should be kept to a minimum to encourage uniqueness, but some sharing has to be done both for sense-making and because there frankly aren't that many unique abilities out there.
I think both Rangers and Thieves could use a serious look and expansion of their abilities in general.
- Navesi
LOTS of guilds share abilities, for different reasons. Yes, sharing should be kept to a minimum to encourage uniqueness, but some sharing has to be done both for sense-making and because there frankly aren't that many unique abilities out there.
I think both Rangers and Thieves could use a serious look and expansion of their abilities in general.
- Navesi
NINEVAH1
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/13/2015 06:12 PM CST
>>Working with toxins all day just means you get poisoned a lot, it doesn't mean your body magically becomes resistant to them.
Actually, small doses of poison over a period of time is exactly how your body builds resistance. You used to have to build resistance to each poison type in DR too, but somewhere along the line it got changed/broken to where you are just resistant once you reach a certain circle.
As far as poison resistance going beyond Thieves, it doesn't bother me really but I think something like that should wait on new poisons to be released and then allow resistance to certain poison types for other guilds by way of spells/abilities.
Actually, small doses of poison over a period of time is exactly how your body builds resistance. You used to have to build resistance to each poison type in DR too, but somewhere along the line it got changed/broken to where you are just resistant once you reach a certain circle.
As far as poison resistance going beyond Thieves, it doesn't bother me really but I think something like that should wait on new poisons to be released and then allow resistance to certain poison types for other guilds by way of spells/abilities.
BADGOPHER
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/13/2015 06:13 PM CST
>If you want to talk about "doesn't make sense" the Thief ability doesn't make sense either. Working with toxins all day just means you get poisoned a lot, it doesn't mean your body magically becomes resistant to them.
Wrong.
Thief poison resistance makes perfect sense as presented in-game, especially when combined with the messaging for the purges, the gaining of the ability, and what khri are and how they function.
Thieves developed semi-supernatural abilities to defeat their own toxins as a byproduct of the process of learning to create them. This process has been passed down, same as khri.
Rangers, on the other hand, have no lore regarding toxins aside from a spell which might/might not cause a venom bite from spiders. Given that this is what amounts to a magical summoning, the ranger never manipulates toxins, venoms, or poisons, in any fashion. So aside from perhaps a bonus to using remedies to cure said ailments, it doesn't make sense for rangers to get any bonus to that system.
Wrong.
Thief poison resistance makes perfect sense as presented in-game, especially when combined with the messaging for the purges, the gaining of the ability, and what khri are and how they function.
Thieves developed semi-supernatural abilities to defeat their own toxins as a byproduct of the process of learning to create them. This process has been passed down, same as khri.
Rangers, on the other hand, have no lore regarding toxins aside from a spell which might/might not cause a venom bite from spiders. Given that this is what amounts to a magical summoning, the ranger never manipulates toxins, venoms, or poisons, in any fashion. So aside from perhaps a bonus to using remedies to cure said ailments, it doesn't make sense for rangers to get any bonus to that system.
FLINT-TIPPED
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/13/2015 06:55 PM CST
It doesn't particularly matter what the lore of the past said once it's been retconned. Poison as a craft is not poison as it is today. Until we actually see it there's no guarantee that anyone will be able to build up resistances or purge poison like they can now.
Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
DRFREAK3
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/13/2015 08:20 PM CST
The original topic was how to improve CURRENT systems that can easily(in context of coding) be adjusted a bit to improve Rangers.
Given that, I still think ranger bonus system (unique system to rangers) and scouting (unique skill to rangers) need to really be looked at.
I posted stats on running trails a good while back and there is nothing that actually improves the scouting system.
Having more scouting skill does not decrease time on trails. Testing that Lang trail is the best way to see the stats on this (which I posted).
After certain amount of skill, it will ALWAYS take about 3 minutes 13 seconds to run it.
wounds, burden, and other stuff work AGAINST scouting, but nothing works for it. Wolf Scent really doesn't do a darn thing for scouting once you reach a certain tipping point with scouting skill. And it tips at low ranks (around 150-300 scouting). After that range, you have basically capped out on the scouting system.
Sadly, somehow I had scouting be one of my highest skills, and I sorely regret that because you have to run that damn Lang trail for HOURS/DAYS to level up, if you made that bad choice. I had to spend months working other survivals so they bypassed scouting. HUNTING is not a viable option at higher ranks because that too caps out at Thoughtful once scouting gets high enough.
The same thing with ranger bonus; everything works against the system, but nothing really works for it.
I've already posted about that in another thread I believe.
Given that, I still think ranger bonus system (unique system to rangers) and scouting (unique skill to rangers) need to really be looked at.
I posted stats on running trails a good while back and there is nothing that actually improves the scouting system.
Having more scouting skill does not decrease time on trails. Testing that Lang trail is the best way to see the stats on this (which I posted).
After certain amount of skill, it will ALWAYS take about 3 minutes 13 seconds to run it.
wounds, burden, and other stuff work AGAINST scouting, but nothing works for it. Wolf Scent really doesn't do a darn thing for scouting once you reach a certain tipping point with scouting skill. And it tips at low ranks (around 150-300 scouting). After that range, you have basically capped out on the scouting system.
Sadly, somehow I had scouting be one of my highest skills, and I sorely regret that because you have to run that damn Lang trail for HOURS/DAYS to level up, if you made that bad choice. I had to spend months working other survivals so they bypassed scouting. HUNTING is not a viable option at higher ranks because that too caps out at Thoughtful once scouting gets high enough.
The same thing with ranger bonus; everything works against the system, but nothing really works for it.
I've already posted about that in another thread I believe.
GALLAHAN
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/14/2015 12:34 PM CST
First Aid (non-ranger problem too) - the methods to train it and the usefulness of the skill
I'm not going to say training first aid is tough. I've been using pet bleeders for as long as I can remember and the two light bleeders I keep on me at all times easily make first aid the skill I gain the most ranks in on any given day, well past 1k ranks.
It is just the idea of walking around with open wounds, asking your friends to beat you til you bleed so you can get them to start with, willingly risk the danger of stuns while hunting, asking empaths to go out of their way to heal everything but your bleeders... it is just too insane to justify IC'ly.
I can't comment on compendiums. I tried them a few times long ago but the process was so much slower and more time consuming than pet bleeders that I never stuck with it.
I thought ePedia used to list how much first aid was required to tend certain types wounds, but I don't see it now.
If I remember correctly, the last thing I was able to tend was severe wounds on another person.. I don't know what rank.. 300 ranks? 500?
After whatever milestone rank that is, I believe the only benefit to FA is increasing the amount of time before your bandages are useless and fall off on their own. There might be a cap for that too, I'm not sure.
Scouting - usefulness of the skill.
Scouting is a million times better to train than it used to be. I don't have any complaints there. Running trails actually teaches now, and I can get a decent amount of scouting on my mind while hunting, too.
It is definitely one of those skills where additional ranks lose their usefulness fairly early on, and the usefulness of most trails as a method of travel went away with travel scripts and automapper. Now trails are for training.
One thing I would like to see scouting do is reduce the penalty that burden and wounds cause to the time it takes to traverse a trail....says the person who is always burdened and has pet bleeders.
As others mentioned, there are only a few trails worth taking: bypassing the rope bridge between Rossman's and Lang/Theren, and bypassing the ice road.
Personal trail markers have potential but at the moment aren't that useful due to how long they last.
Magic -
Debilitation
I believe there are no ranger spells that teach debilitation at 0 ranks. We have to use classes or an AP spell to learn enough to cast the easiest ranger debilitation spell.
Compost
1. I still miss being able to boost the available life mana with this spell. I understand why it happened, magic-tert and all that... but I still miss it.
2. I kind of hate what this spell has turned into. It went from being a spell you occasionally cast to clean the room (or boost mana) to a spell that people cast over and over to train with, frequently while in an area with others so they can listen to classes. Spending time at the ranger guild results in someone complaining about something being composted. The at-feet slot has helped with that a lot, and whenever I see someone drop something that I figure they'll want to pick up later I whisper to make sure they are aware of it.
Awaken Forest
The only good/safe use I've found for this spell is when mining in a hostile area, to keep the creatures under control.
If you try hunting with it then chances are you will accidentally face your spawn at some point and it will become hostile toward you. Then you are forced to kill it and can't recast due to the cooldown.
If you try hunting with it and a group, it is as likely to attack your group as it is the creatures.
I have seen them used successfully in spars, but they won't stop attacking when the challenge ends. I haven't seen one used in a while and I believe Empath Guardian Spirits were changed to fix this. I know they are totally different systems so I doubt the fix applied to Awaken Forest spawns, but it is possible.
Forest Walker's Boon
Long ago I used this spell to calm gryphons when hunting with younger people when they got overwhelmed.
It only works on some animals though. There aren't many situations where it is useful, or even usable. Maybe if it had some affect vs other creature types..not calming, but making less aggressive, hesitant to attack, something. Maybe if we could cast it at a particular person so that creatures won't attack that person or the person will only be engaged if everyone else in the room has the max creatures engaged.
Memory of Nature
I do find this spell useful, but reading the other post I might be one of the few.
I would be happy if it was more effective, boosted nature attunement more, and lasted longer.
Another thing that would be nice is if there was a way for younger rangers to boost their bonus in town.
Could this become a ritual spell where the more mana you put into it the longer it will last, and different tiers of mana will boost it additional levels? 40 mana cast = +1 nature level for 10 minutes, 2000 mana cast = +4 nature level for 2 hours? I have no idea if those mana amounts and nature boost amounts are realistic.
We don't have any ritual spells. At first I figured because magic tert, but paladins have one so that must not be it.
....that, or maybe have MoN boost the nature level for everyone in the room, so if two rangers with a +1 boost are in a room then everyone in the room has a +2 boost.
A large enough group of rangers helping with an invasion could take full wilderness wherever they go.. or at least close to full wilderness if you have to cap the boost.
Loss of spell effects with 3.0 conversion.. we no longer have a way to:
Breath underwater (Caiman Swim)
Keep dry while in water (Caiman Swim)
Neither is a vital thing.. I just miss being self sufficient taking people pearl diving.
I didn't even know Caiman Swim kept you dry too until someone else complained about it. I usually just ignore the drips and air dry, but I know other people who would be happy not having to dry off (and happy with me not dripping water everywhere) I have no clue if it kept instruments dry or anything.
Beseeches
Beseech the Sun to Dry
It used to be great for drying a stack of up to 100 parts of herbs, making popcorn, and drying yourself.
Raw herbs can no longer be stacked, so now you are limited to drying a stack of.. 5-10? parts, depending on Outdoorsmanship skill and foraging method.
The beseech is the equivalent of a very low quality pyramid so your dried herbs end up lower quality than when using a store bought pyramid (based on alchemy skill, how the quality turns out)
The beseech dries a single stack quicker than a pyramid, but the pyramid allows you to dry several stacks at a time at higher quality.
After taking a group on a swim, if I see people dry off I'll glance at the sun and use this to dry myself if available. if there is drama going on and someone mentions popcorn I'll also glance at the sun and make some if I can.
Beseech Elanthia to Imbue
This is used for Personal Trail Markers, so it is as useful as they are. If you overhaul PTMs to be awesome, it can be too :)
I think it can also allow non-rangers to see ranger signs..somehow. I know non-rangers can see signs in the same room. I think I saw someone mention it lets non-rangers see signs in adjacent rooms
Beseech the Wind to Clean - I use this one
Beseech Elanthia to Cradle - This one has saved me many times after sorcery research went horribly wrong, and the times I forgot to switch to shield and failed parrying with a longbow.
Beseech the Wind to Preserve
People ask me to preserve flowers occasionally. I saw some forum posts a while back where special flower preservation potions were being made that preserved the scent of the flower, too.
if possible, it would be nice if aligning a certain (large) amount of spirit to the beseech would have the same effect.
As for preserving meat, at the moment I use my wolf sparingly enough that I just grab food when I need it. My meat locker hasn't left my vault in years and I don't attempt to preserve/store meat.
Beseech Elanthia to Petrify
At some point this year I saw a ranger post apps of their armor after using this on the forums, so I know at least some do. I tried it a few times after reading about it, but I'm not sure I saw a real change.
Beseech the Dark to Sing
I like this one. It causes creepy atmo messages that freak everyone out. Oh, and it can be useful in a few scenarios too.
I'll use it mining in dark rooms, and during some events where we went into dark areas and there wasn't anyone present with the ability to light the room for everyone.
I have used it hunting in the dark too, but I was hunting slightly below level so the knockdown/stun never worried me too much. If i was hunting at level it would probably be death.
One part of the beseech might be broken. The beseech is supposed to stop and cause a stun if you go out into the light. I wish it did that. There are times I'm done being in the dark and would just like to get the stun over with so it doesn't happen at a inconvenient time later on. Maybe a way to release the beseech, so if you leave the dark area and it is night time you still have a way to stop it.
Beseech Elanthia to Seal
This increases the time until a grave starts spitting stuff out. I have tried using it 3 times over the years but was never successful.
I can't remember why it failed the first two times, long before the depart options were available. I think I remember the issue being the area the grave was in wasn't wilderness enough..and it was somewhat wild (pace 4/5) I think.
You don't see graves that often anymore, so there isn't much cause to use it. The only time I tried to use it recently was when someone drowned swimming with the dolphin on Ratha. The beseech didn't work there, too city.
Beseech the Water to Solidify
I used this to cross the Segoltha (by myself and with groups) a lot before I was skilled enough to swim/drag with low enough RT that it beat the ferry.
The current can still pull you and/or your group while using this. Just have to backtrack and grab them and keep going. If you are leading more than one person it can be a painful process though.
Beseech the Wind to Refresh
I can't think I've ever had a need to use it, and I've heard several people say the vitality boost wasn't worth the amount of spirit.
Beseech the Wind to Echo
I try using this if someone doesn't have a crystal ring, but it rarely works. The messaging doesn't really tell why it failed either, so I'm not sure why. Maybe the distance wasn't boosted the way that crystal rings were. It would make sense if the wind didn't reach people who are indoors, but I don't know if that is a restriction or not.
Beseech Elanthia to Transfer
I use this one a lot. It definitely doesn't automatically boost your bonus to max, but it does help a lot.
You can't use it if your bonus is too low. I don't know if that is a complaint or not. I have come to accept it. If I was in town too long I have to sit outside of town for a little bit while my bonus recovers a little on its own before i can use it to boost it more.
Bonus
I am curious how this even works in post-3.0 world.
At one point I believe there was a certain level of nature attunement that is "normal" that neither boosts or penalizes our survival skills. If your attunement was above that it boosted our skills and below that it penalized them based on how far from "normal" it was.
From experience this seemed to be true. With a near max bonus i was able to hide against things that friends with similar skill/buffs/hindrance but different guilds couldn't. On the low end, a trashed bonus would prevent me from climbing under the gondola until I recover a while.
Now that buffs were standardized to 15% or 20%, does our bonus boost still boost our skills? If a capped bonus does boost my stealth 20%, does casting Earth Meld not do anything since I already have a capped buff from my bonus?
Other people mentioned their bonus recovering at a slower rate than it drained. I'm not sure I've noticed that one.
Going to events in town can be kind of painful and I know I'll have to spend an equal amount of time in the wilds to recover before it is safe to hunt, but I've never let that stop me. The only reason I've used bonus as an excuse not to go to an event is if i really didn't want to go to the event in the first place and i used it as an excuse to get out of it.
Crafting
Crafting really really really really makes me hate being lore tert. I like everything else about my skillset placement. I'm not asking to have skillset placement changed. That'd be insane.
I just hate having a disadvantage across the board for all crafts. It doesn't matter how much time I spend on a craft, if a lore secondary or primary spends the same amount of time they will pull ahead. I know lore primary has needed some love and I am happy they got it, but the crafting system was this awesome new system encompassing so much...and they get to pretty much own it all if they want to put the effort in..while it is an uphill battle for me.
Career/Hobby placement just adds to it. They get to learn quicker and get instant skill boosts to their ability to make things across twice as many disciplines.
Rangers gave up being the only guild capable of being able to make perfect leather armor, just like Paladins gave up being the kings of metal armor, Barbs metal weapons, and Moon Mages enchanting... which I think is awesome that every guild is equal and has the ability to make anything... but it doesn't feel equal from the lore tert side of things. We are a little bit worse off than everyone else, in every aspect of crafting. (well, except material gathering.. we do have it good there..)
Every item in crafting has a technique assigned to it, where knowing that technique gives you a boost in skill when making that item. I wish that every item also had another skill tied to it, where knowledge of that skill was factored in to your ability to make the item.
That is one part of the old system I miss. Making things required both knowledge of crafting (mech lore) and doing. Making bows took your skill with the type of bow you were making and your mech lore into account. Same with making leather armor, metal armor and weapons.
I'm not going to say training first aid is tough. I've been using pet bleeders for as long as I can remember and the two light bleeders I keep on me at all times easily make first aid the skill I gain the most ranks in on any given day, well past 1k ranks.
It is just the idea of walking around with open wounds, asking your friends to beat you til you bleed so you can get them to start with, willingly risk the danger of stuns while hunting, asking empaths to go out of their way to heal everything but your bleeders... it is just too insane to justify IC'ly.
I can't comment on compendiums. I tried them a few times long ago but the process was so much slower and more time consuming than pet bleeders that I never stuck with it.
I thought ePedia used to list how much first aid was required to tend certain types wounds, but I don't see it now.
If I remember correctly, the last thing I was able to tend was severe wounds on another person.. I don't know what rank.. 300 ranks? 500?
After whatever milestone rank that is, I believe the only benefit to FA is increasing the amount of time before your bandages are useless and fall off on their own. There might be a cap for that too, I'm not sure.
Scouting - usefulness of the skill.
Scouting is a million times better to train than it used to be. I don't have any complaints there. Running trails actually teaches now, and I can get a decent amount of scouting on my mind while hunting, too.
It is definitely one of those skills where additional ranks lose their usefulness fairly early on, and the usefulness of most trails as a method of travel went away with travel scripts and automapper. Now trails are for training.
One thing I would like to see scouting do is reduce the penalty that burden and wounds cause to the time it takes to traverse a trail....says the person who is always burdened and has pet bleeders.
As others mentioned, there are only a few trails worth taking: bypassing the rope bridge between Rossman's and Lang/Theren, and bypassing the ice road.
Personal trail markers have potential but at the moment aren't that useful due to how long they last.
Magic -
Debilitation
I believe there are no ranger spells that teach debilitation at 0 ranks. We have to use classes or an AP spell to learn enough to cast the easiest ranger debilitation spell.
Compost
1. I still miss being able to boost the available life mana with this spell. I understand why it happened, magic-tert and all that... but I still miss it.
2. I kind of hate what this spell has turned into. It went from being a spell you occasionally cast to clean the room (or boost mana) to a spell that people cast over and over to train with, frequently while in an area with others so they can listen to classes. Spending time at the ranger guild results in someone complaining about something being composted. The at-feet slot has helped with that a lot, and whenever I see someone drop something that I figure they'll want to pick up later I whisper to make sure they are aware of it.
Awaken Forest
The only good/safe use I've found for this spell is when mining in a hostile area, to keep the creatures under control.
If you try hunting with it then chances are you will accidentally face your spawn at some point and it will become hostile toward you. Then you are forced to kill it and can't recast due to the cooldown.
If you try hunting with it and a group, it is as likely to attack your group as it is the creatures.
I have seen them used successfully in spars, but they won't stop attacking when the challenge ends. I haven't seen one used in a while and I believe Empath Guardian Spirits were changed to fix this. I know they are totally different systems so I doubt the fix applied to Awaken Forest spawns, but it is possible.
Forest Walker's Boon
Long ago I used this spell to calm gryphons when hunting with younger people when they got overwhelmed.
It only works on some animals though. There aren't many situations where it is useful, or even usable. Maybe if it had some affect vs other creature types..not calming, but making less aggressive, hesitant to attack, something. Maybe if we could cast it at a particular person so that creatures won't attack that person or the person will only be engaged if everyone else in the room has the max creatures engaged.
Memory of Nature
I do find this spell useful, but reading the other post I might be one of the few.
I would be happy if it was more effective, boosted nature attunement more, and lasted longer.
Another thing that would be nice is if there was a way for younger rangers to boost their bonus in town.
Could this become a ritual spell where the more mana you put into it the longer it will last, and different tiers of mana will boost it additional levels? 40 mana cast = +1 nature level for 10 minutes, 2000 mana cast = +4 nature level for 2 hours? I have no idea if those mana amounts and nature boost amounts are realistic.
We don't have any ritual spells. At first I figured because magic tert, but paladins have one so that must not be it.
....that, or maybe have MoN boost the nature level for everyone in the room, so if two rangers with a +1 boost are in a room then everyone in the room has a +2 boost.
A large enough group of rangers helping with an invasion could take full wilderness wherever they go.. or at least close to full wilderness if you have to cap the boost.
Loss of spell effects with 3.0 conversion.. we no longer have a way to:
Breath underwater (Caiman Swim)
Keep dry while in water (Caiman Swim)
Neither is a vital thing.. I just miss being self sufficient taking people pearl diving.
I didn't even know Caiman Swim kept you dry too until someone else complained about it. I usually just ignore the drips and air dry, but I know other people who would be happy not having to dry off (and happy with me not dripping water everywhere) I have no clue if it kept instruments dry or anything.
Beseeches
Beseech the Sun to Dry
It used to be great for drying a stack of up to 100 parts of herbs, making popcorn, and drying yourself.
Raw herbs can no longer be stacked, so now you are limited to drying a stack of.. 5-10? parts, depending on Outdoorsmanship skill and foraging method.
The beseech is the equivalent of a very low quality pyramid so your dried herbs end up lower quality than when using a store bought pyramid (based on alchemy skill, how the quality turns out)
The beseech dries a single stack quicker than a pyramid, but the pyramid allows you to dry several stacks at a time at higher quality.
After taking a group on a swim, if I see people dry off I'll glance at the sun and use this to dry myself if available. if there is drama going on and someone mentions popcorn I'll also glance at the sun and make some if I can.
Beseech Elanthia to Imbue
This is used for Personal Trail Markers, so it is as useful as they are. If you overhaul PTMs to be awesome, it can be too :)
I think it can also allow non-rangers to see ranger signs..somehow. I know non-rangers can see signs in the same room. I think I saw someone mention it lets non-rangers see signs in adjacent rooms
Beseech the Wind to Clean - I use this one
Beseech Elanthia to Cradle - This one has saved me many times after sorcery research went horribly wrong, and the times I forgot to switch to shield and failed parrying with a longbow.
Beseech the Wind to Preserve
People ask me to preserve flowers occasionally. I saw some forum posts a while back where special flower preservation potions were being made that preserved the scent of the flower, too.
if possible, it would be nice if aligning a certain (large) amount of spirit to the beseech would have the same effect.
As for preserving meat, at the moment I use my wolf sparingly enough that I just grab food when I need it. My meat locker hasn't left my vault in years and I don't attempt to preserve/store meat.
Beseech Elanthia to Petrify
At some point this year I saw a ranger post apps of their armor after using this on the forums, so I know at least some do. I tried it a few times after reading about it, but I'm not sure I saw a real change.
Beseech the Dark to Sing
I like this one. It causes creepy atmo messages that freak everyone out. Oh, and it can be useful in a few scenarios too.
I'll use it mining in dark rooms, and during some events where we went into dark areas and there wasn't anyone present with the ability to light the room for everyone.
I have used it hunting in the dark too, but I was hunting slightly below level so the knockdown/stun never worried me too much. If i was hunting at level it would probably be death.
One part of the beseech might be broken. The beseech is supposed to stop and cause a stun if you go out into the light. I wish it did that. There are times I'm done being in the dark and would just like to get the stun over with so it doesn't happen at a inconvenient time later on. Maybe a way to release the beseech, so if you leave the dark area and it is night time you still have a way to stop it.
Beseech Elanthia to Seal
This increases the time until a grave starts spitting stuff out. I have tried using it 3 times over the years but was never successful.
I can't remember why it failed the first two times, long before the depart options were available. I think I remember the issue being the area the grave was in wasn't wilderness enough..and it was somewhat wild (pace 4/5) I think.
You don't see graves that often anymore, so there isn't much cause to use it. The only time I tried to use it recently was when someone drowned swimming with the dolphin on Ratha. The beseech didn't work there, too city.
Beseech the Water to Solidify
I used this to cross the Segoltha (by myself and with groups) a lot before I was skilled enough to swim/drag with low enough RT that it beat the ferry.
The current can still pull you and/or your group while using this. Just have to backtrack and grab them and keep going. If you are leading more than one person it can be a painful process though.
Beseech the Wind to Refresh
I can't think I've ever had a need to use it, and I've heard several people say the vitality boost wasn't worth the amount of spirit.
Beseech the Wind to Echo
I try using this if someone doesn't have a crystal ring, but it rarely works. The messaging doesn't really tell why it failed either, so I'm not sure why. Maybe the distance wasn't boosted the way that crystal rings were. It would make sense if the wind didn't reach people who are indoors, but I don't know if that is a restriction or not.
Beseech Elanthia to Transfer
I use this one a lot. It definitely doesn't automatically boost your bonus to max, but it does help a lot.
You can't use it if your bonus is too low. I don't know if that is a complaint or not. I have come to accept it. If I was in town too long I have to sit outside of town for a little bit while my bonus recovers a little on its own before i can use it to boost it more.
Bonus
I am curious how this even works in post-3.0 world.
At one point I believe there was a certain level of nature attunement that is "normal" that neither boosts or penalizes our survival skills. If your attunement was above that it boosted our skills and below that it penalized them based on how far from "normal" it was.
From experience this seemed to be true. With a near max bonus i was able to hide against things that friends with similar skill/buffs/hindrance but different guilds couldn't. On the low end, a trashed bonus would prevent me from climbing under the gondola until I recover a while.
Now that buffs were standardized to 15% or 20%, does our bonus boost still boost our skills? If a capped bonus does boost my stealth 20%, does casting Earth Meld not do anything since I already have a capped buff from my bonus?
Other people mentioned their bonus recovering at a slower rate than it drained. I'm not sure I've noticed that one.
Going to events in town can be kind of painful and I know I'll have to spend an equal amount of time in the wilds to recover before it is safe to hunt, but I've never let that stop me. The only reason I've used bonus as an excuse not to go to an event is if i really didn't want to go to the event in the first place and i used it as an excuse to get out of it.
Crafting
Crafting really really really really makes me hate being lore tert. I like everything else about my skillset placement. I'm not asking to have skillset placement changed. That'd be insane.
I just hate having a disadvantage across the board for all crafts. It doesn't matter how much time I spend on a craft, if a lore secondary or primary spends the same amount of time they will pull ahead. I know lore primary has needed some love and I am happy they got it, but the crafting system was this awesome new system encompassing so much...and they get to pretty much own it all if they want to put the effort in..while it is an uphill battle for me.
Career/Hobby placement just adds to it. They get to learn quicker and get instant skill boosts to their ability to make things across twice as many disciplines.
Rangers gave up being the only guild capable of being able to make perfect leather armor, just like Paladins gave up being the kings of metal armor, Barbs metal weapons, and Moon Mages enchanting... which I think is awesome that every guild is equal and has the ability to make anything... but it doesn't feel equal from the lore tert side of things. We are a little bit worse off than everyone else, in every aspect of crafting. (well, except material gathering.. we do have it good there..)
Every item in crafting has a technique assigned to it, where knowing that technique gives you a boost in skill when making that item. I wish that every item also had another skill tied to it, where knowledge of that skill was factored in to your ability to make the item.
That is one part of the old system I miss. Making things required both knowledge of crafting (mech lore) and doing. Making bows took your skill with the type of bow you were making and your mech lore into account. Same with making leather armor, metal armor and weapons.
DKS0126938
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/16/2015 11:42 PM CST
Spells
AF – More or less useless when compared to any other “pet” type spell or ability. When capped in a room the timer on the room is set at 90 mins so if it dies or you happen to face it and attack because you just killed something and it defaults as next you have to move or wait 90 mins to recast (No other spell that I am aware of has restrictions this bad).
MON - Would prefer to see it become a ritual spell with a longer duration and less picky on the room cast or an easier way to tell if the room will let it be cast.
BB – Others have covered this.
Blend – It was stated to work similar to RF where if you cast it and you come out of it IE – town. It pulses and would break. However, once out of town it would pulse and reapply itself. As is, kind of pointless to cast much more than min snap casts if trying to run through a room IE – I use it for training ath so I don’t spam people hunting as I run through.
Companions
Far too many issues as they currently stand to be useful and take far too long to “evolve/grow”.
Aging – Personally, if the timing to evolve/grow them is adjusted I would see no issue with them dying as it is natural cyclic of life.
So many ways to lose them it is not even funny and not sure anyone has a completely list anymore. However, places I’ve lost them – vaults, swimming, black leucros/geni (I’m sure someone else can add a lot more).
Beseeches
These overall are covered. I think duration is a huge downside to these as well.
One correction is on Transfer it requires an align of 35 not 45 to use it so the hit isn’t that huge. Though I do think that aligning more should increase duration.
Scouting…. What can I that hasn’t been said. At 800ish ranks its painful and overall useless hunting I can get it moving but since stuff takes longer to kill roaming around using it in a hunting area isn't that good unless I under hunt. Trails take around ~45 mins to lock it.
Trails – See above posts
Bonus – Echo others
Crafting
We have a bonus slot in carving? Seems a bit off to me as it would better suited in shaping IMO.
Adding poison “resistance” I see as a bonus. However, I could see it as that, resistance. Not the ability to purge it but strictly a resistance. Even if it was a higher circle perk. So while it would “pull” a bit from thieves, it wouldn’t be stripping the ability and giving it to another guild or even add flare to it and have us cut the wound to drain some poison from it. So while it would reduce, it would add a wound.
FA – I have no issues here overall with over 600 I can lock it on 3 bleeders with 2 tends each so I wouldn’t say it is hard to lock in any fashion.
AF – More or less useless when compared to any other “pet” type spell or ability. When capped in a room the timer on the room is set at 90 mins so if it dies or you happen to face it and attack because you just killed something and it defaults as next you have to move or wait 90 mins to recast (No other spell that I am aware of has restrictions this bad).
MON - Would prefer to see it become a ritual spell with a longer duration and less picky on the room cast or an easier way to tell if the room will let it be cast.
BB – Others have covered this.
Blend – It was stated to work similar to RF where if you cast it and you come out of it IE – town. It pulses and would break. However, once out of town it would pulse and reapply itself. As is, kind of pointless to cast much more than min snap casts if trying to run through a room IE – I use it for training ath so I don’t spam people hunting as I run through.
Companions
Far too many issues as they currently stand to be useful and take far too long to “evolve/grow”.
Aging – Personally, if the timing to evolve/grow them is adjusted I would see no issue with them dying as it is natural cyclic of life.
So many ways to lose them it is not even funny and not sure anyone has a completely list anymore. However, places I’ve lost them – vaults, swimming, black leucros/geni (I’m sure someone else can add a lot more).
Beseeches
These overall are covered. I think duration is a huge downside to these as well.
One correction is on Transfer it requires an align of 35 not 45 to use it so the hit isn’t that huge. Though I do think that aligning more should increase duration.
Scouting…. What can I that hasn’t been said. At 800ish ranks its painful and overall useless hunting I can get it moving but since stuff takes longer to kill roaming around using it in a hunting area isn't that good unless I under hunt. Trails take around ~45 mins to lock it.
Trails – See above posts
Bonus – Echo others
Crafting
We have a bonus slot in carving? Seems a bit off to me as it would better suited in shaping IMO.
Adding poison “resistance” I see as a bonus. However, I could see it as that, resistance. Not the ability to purge it but strictly a resistance. Even if it was a higher circle perk. So while it would “pull” a bit from thieves, it wouldn’t be stripping the ability and giving it to another guild or even add flare to it and have us cut the wound to drain some poison from it. So while it would reduce, it would add a wound.
FA – I have no issues here overall with over 600 I can lock it on 3 bleeders with 2 tends each so I wouldn’t say it is hard to lock in any fashion.
ABSOLON
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
12/17/2015 01:14 AM CST
<<you have to move or wait 90 mins to recast (No other spell that I am aware of has restrictions this bad).
Starlight Sphere cannot be cast during the day which leads to waits up to 180 minutes without the spell at all. That said, the spell effect itself is stellar, so the trade-off is not as onerous as it could be unlike with Awaken Forest.
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Starlight Sphere cannot be cast during the day which leads to waits up to 180 minutes without the spell at all. That said, the spell effect itself is stellar, so the trade-off is not as onerous as it could be unlike with Awaken Forest.
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JWARK04
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/15/2016 12:16 AM CST
My biggest issue with rangers currently is it seems like we just don't have anything we're the best at. Nothing makes you say I'll be ranger because I want to specialize in this...or so it feels to me anyway. I am not super high level so I could be overlooking something.
Thieves, best box pickers (I've been told rangers are not as good but I could be wrong)
Empaths, well they heal. No one else can, it's an incredibly useful guild skill
Warrior Mages, Best at offensive magic plus their familiars are awesome.
Moon mages, Only guild that can teleport around.
Barbarians, Kill things faster than anyone else. I'm guessing their income potential is incredibly high because of this.
Traders, fit a great role in being able to sell gem pouches, player shops (that's not to say they couldn't use some help but they have what makes them 'traders' and their specialties are owned by no one else.
Paladins, yeah they need help but no one else can do plate armor the way they can.
Rangers, we're not the best at anything. We have a scouting skill which is worthless. The only thing that's great is our skillset. I would like to say we can dual load but of course barbarians can do that too.
Thieves, best box pickers (I've been told rangers are not as good but I could be wrong)
Empaths, well they heal. No one else can, it's an incredibly useful guild skill
Warrior Mages, Best at offensive magic plus their familiars are awesome.
Moon mages, Only guild that can teleport around.
Barbarians, Kill things faster than anyone else. I'm guessing their income potential is incredibly high because of this.
Traders, fit a great role in being able to sell gem pouches, player shops (that's not to say they couldn't use some help but they have what makes them 'traders' and their specialties are owned by no one else.
Paladins, yeah they need help but no one else can do plate armor the way they can.
Rangers, we're not the best at anything. We have a scouting skill which is worthless. The only thing that's great is our skillset. I would like to say we can dual load but of course barbarians can do that too.
DRFREAK3
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/15/2016 12:51 PM CST
Rangers are probably the best 'generalist' guild available.
So, on the flip side of what you were getting at: All guilds specialize in something, Rangers aren't the best at anything anymore, but that comes with being a good generalist at everything, where other guilds aren't.
So, on the flip side of what you were getting at: All guilds specialize in something, Rangers aren't the best at anything anymore, but that comes with being a good generalist at everything, where other guilds aren't.
JWARK04
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/15/2016 04:17 PM CST
I've heard that....not sure I agree though. What can we do that is "general" that separates another guild from being less "general"? Gameplay wise other guilds can do the same general things we can.
ABSOLON
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/15/2016 07:42 PM CST
I've always felt that Bards were the most 'generalist' guild. They're certainly the ones who had the most buffs and abilities related to tertiary skills. Their abilities are a tossed salad of stealth, combat, magic, and lore. Slightly less so in 3.0, but it's still a jack-of-all-trades kind of feeling.
Rangers, in my opinion, are a blend of Barbarians and Thieves with the ability to go back and forth between those two styles of combat at will without thinking twice. To contrast, Thieves are very stealth reliant while Barbarians are only stealth capable not proficient. This would probably be the most 'generalist' sort of thing about rangers I think.
As far as things that Rangers do best, I find myself always a bit jealous of how easy it is for Rangers to get places with much lower skill than all my other characters. Ranger bonus plus a full suite of buffs to everything related to swimming/climbing is a huge leg up. That's not something to hang an entire guild on of course, but it is something they do better than everyone. The one notable exception being my Moon Mage due to the whole teleportation thing, although that only because of the astral plane and 100th circle ability. Prior to that, rank for rank Rangers have the advantage and only lose it to high level Moon Mages.
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Rangers, in my opinion, are a blend of Barbarians and Thieves with the ability to go back and forth between those two styles of combat at will without thinking twice. To contrast, Thieves are very stealth reliant while Barbarians are only stealth capable not proficient. This would probably be the most 'generalist' sort of thing about rangers I think.
As far as things that Rangers do best, I find myself always a bit jealous of how easy it is for Rangers to get places with much lower skill than all my other characters. Ranger bonus plus a full suite of buffs to everything related to swimming/climbing is a huge leg up. That's not something to hang an entire guild on of course, but it is something they do better than everyone. The one notable exception being my Moon Mage due to the whole teleportation thing, although that only because of the astral plane and 100th circle ability. Prior to that, rank for rank Rangers have the advantage and only lose it to high level Moon Mages.
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JWARK04
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/15/2016 09:06 PM CST
I guess I have trouble seeing that but not saying it isn't true. I only have 600 athletics but don't even use it. I mean on my barbarian I can go everywhere my ranger can currently go. Maybe there are places I do not know about though, the only thing is my barbarian can't swim the selgotha but it's only a matter of time before he can. Anyone can train athletics up high enough to bypass public transport really. It just takes them longer so in that respect yes I guess rangers and thieves are best. Rangers maybe a little better due to various bonuses but it's a world of difference between having something your guild specifically can do that no one else can ever really do.
I mean My ranger will NEVER be able to kill as fast as a Barbarian. A barbarian can absolutely navigate terrain as fast as I can.
When I'm playing barbarian I'm never thinking that I wish I was a ranger so I can do "this". When I'm playing my ranger I'm sure thinking I wish I was another guild for multiple things. I can see what you're saying is more true with survival tert just because it takes ages to get there but really it's still relatively achievable.
Anyway, yeah, I love the ranger skillset. It's why I still play them along with RP reasons. It's not like Rangers are completely horrible. It's just the one thing I have an issue, they just don't anything special really. If scouting skill actually did something I probably wouldn't have a single complaint about them! I wouldn't even care about companions but that's just me. Anyway, still enjoy playing them very much so I don't mean this to come off like I'm having a horrible time with them.
I mean My ranger will NEVER be able to kill as fast as a Barbarian. A barbarian can absolutely navigate terrain as fast as I can.
When I'm playing barbarian I'm never thinking that I wish I was a ranger so I can do "this". When I'm playing my ranger I'm sure thinking I wish I was another guild for multiple things. I can see what you're saying is more true with survival tert just because it takes ages to get there but really it's still relatively achievable.
Anyway, yeah, I love the ranger skillset. It's why I still play them along with RP reasons. It's not like Rangers are completely horrible. It's just the one thing I have an issue, they just don't anything special really. If scouting skill actually did something I probably wouldn't have a single complaint about them! I wouldn't even care about companions but that's just me. Anyway, still enjoy playing them very much so I don't mean this to come off like I'm having a horrible time with them.
DR-NAOHHI
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/16/2016 05:44 PM CST
Hmm.. What kind of useful things do you feel scouting could do with NEW code?
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NaOH+HI
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NaOH+HI
JWARK04
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/16/2016 06:07 PM CST
<Hmm.. What kind of useful things do you feel scouting could do with NEW code?
---
NaOH+HI>
I wish I had a great answer. I don't. It's a tough one for sure and I understand that's the dilemma with it. I mean making travel faster isn't really a great help since it's not like that's a huge hurdle anyone has to overcome in the first place.
I did post an idea about possibly further reducing roundtimes for movement (swimming, climbing, etc) but still training the same amount. That would actually give us a leg up in being able to train survival skills faster and more efficiently. I honestly don't know if that's the greatest idea or not but maybe it's something. It's a very oddball thing, scouting, it's hard to link it to something useful or, as was mentioned, something to hang an entire's guilds hat on.
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NaOH+HI>
I wish I had a great answer. I don't. It's a tough one for sure and I understand that's the dilemma with it. I mean making travel faster isn't really a great help since it's not like that's a huge hurdle anyone has to overcome in the first place.
I did post an idea about possibly further reducing roundtimes for movement (swimming, climbing, etc) but still training the same amount. That would actually give us a leg up in being able to train survival skills faster and more efficiently. I honestly don't know if that's the greatest idea or not but maybe it's something. It's a very oddball thing, scouting, it's hard to link it to something useful or, as was mentioned, something to hang an entire's guilds hat on.
SLHUBBARD
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/16/2016 06:45 PM CST
Is renaming the skill on the table at all? The name is the biggest challenge for the skill (same goes for Backstabbing).
It doesn't fit the current paradigm for guild-only skills, and the name itself makes it difficult to develop things not only for the skill, but for the guild.
GENT
It doesn't fit the current paradigm for guild-only skills, and the name itself makes it difficult to develop things not only for the skill, but for the guild.
GENT
JWARK04
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/16/2016 08:05 PM CST
<It doesn't fit the current paradigm for guild-only skills, and the name itself makes it difficult to develop things not only for the skill, but for the guild.>
Agree completely. I really liked animal lore, just as a concept. Maybe it could be neat if rangers could specialize in that. I can see that being a lot of work to code though. Taming animals would be cool, being able to set a preferred enemy (animal only) might be neat. I know these are not original ideas but they're tried and true staples of rangers. That would make us the kings of the animal world anyway. Something really nice that only a ranger could do.
Agree completely. I really liked animal lore, just as a concept. Maybe it could be neat if rangers could specialize in that. I can see that being a lot of work to code though. Taming animals would be cool, being able to set a preferred enemy (animal only) might be neat. I know these are not original ideas but they're tried and true staples of rangers. That would make us the kings of the animal world anyway. Something really nice that only a ranger could do.
LAWREYJRJ7
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/17/2016 05:43 AM CST
Ok I agree with some of what is here but not all of it. Like this -
<<Rangers, we're not the best at anything. We have a scouting skill which is worthless. The only thing that's great is our skillset. I would like to say we can dual load but of course barbarians can do that too.>>
Right now rangers are the best gatherers in the lands. The skills used in mining and lumberjacking are primarily (outdoorsmanship, perception, and appraisal). With our wilderness bonus that puts us far ahead in the first two skills. This tends to help us mine better, lumberjack better, gather herbs better, skin better, etc. So we can provide materials it takes others a lot longer to find. Also we can forage precise (only rangers, necros, thieves and empaths), which means we provide the best quality herbs with the highest count totals. Though I suspect necros will eventually overtake us because of the fact (appraisal) is a lore and they are lore secondary while we are lore tertiary.
As far as scouting goes. The only thing scouting used to be good for was to track an enemy commander during invasions if you found him, and track to his location with a group of commander killers. However, since it was well used during the necro undead wars, the GMs decided to make it so we could not do that as well anymore. Sigh. So the one real use we got out of it kind of went away, and the ability to train scouting with it pretty much goes away at high skill, leaving only hunt to train it.
Right now we have a decent HUNT range at higher levels of skill. It might be nice to see scouting skill increase this range incrementally based on your skill level (I can make a case that good scouting skill enables you to track further afield for what you are trying to find). It might also be nice to have scouting maybe boost skinning, as you scout out the best critters for the perfect pelt/skin/hide/bone or at least reduce the chance of messing the skin up when scraping. Might give scouting something to do besides run trails or track a critter. Though I suspect none of that can happen because of limits to how high you can boost a skill that came out in 3.0 and we can already boost skinning with HOL. And actually making personal trail markers teach something, right now Personal trail markers teach so low its almost not used. In fact about the only time I use it, is to run a personal trail out of some area quickly (if I remember to bother setting it up because it wont train me using it). Right now scouting is basic tracking. It should be used to find people and critters and materials (minerals, lumber, herbs, etc) and locations. So the question is how does it help you do that? Right now the only thing it does is let you track the critter you are shooting arrows at and follow it out of the room when it runs away or run trails. There is no meat to it. If I wanted to track down a person like a blood hound I should be able to do so. If I wanted to find the best lumber area I should be able to find it.
Oh Oh! I know. If I wanted a dragon companion I should be able to scout a suitable candidate out! (GRIN)
Ranger Pfanston and his soggy pup.
BADGOPHER
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/17/2016 06:59 AM CST
>Rangers, we're not the best at anything. We have a scouting skill which is worthless. The only thing that's great is our skillset. I would like to say we can dual load but of course barbarians can do that too.
Barbs tend to share almost any 'weapon related' perk. And let's be honest, they don't really have much interesting going on related to their primary skill set. All of their special abilities run off magic ranks.
I'm not really sure who in the game is the best at anything, could you give some examples? Everything I can think of I can point to 2 other guilds and say they're comparable, not better/worse.
Barbs tend to share almost any 'weapon related' perk. And let's be honest, they don't really have much interesting going on related to their primary skill set. All of their special abilities run off magic ranks.
I'm not really sure who in the game is the best at anything, could you give some examples? Everything I can think of I can point to 2 other guilds and say they're comparable, not better/worse.
JWARK04
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/17/2016 08:22 AM CST
I outlined the examples earlier. Barbs I said kill faster than anything else which equals more income. It's why people want barbs. It's why I play one.
JWARK04
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/17/2016 08:29 AM CST
They're also the only guild that has weapons primary which makes them pretty unique since lore primary, magic primary, and survival primary and not exclusive.
If rangers were the only survival primary guild I would think that would be pretty unique as well.
If rangers were the only survival primary guild I would think that would be pretty unique as well.
BADGOPHER
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/17/2016 08:39 AM CST
>Barbs I said kill faster than anything else which equals more income.
Uh, what? Barb damage output is vastly lower than any other guild. A magic user can stat RT free damage abilities and debilitations, infinite buffs that are instant-on, and still output the same damage as a barb with weapons. Barbs have a hard limitation on what they can do in the form of inner fire, they have no magic damage abilities, and several of their abilities require either exiting combat or ramp up time.
>They're also the only guild that has weapons primary which makes them pretty unique since lore primary, magic primary, and survival primary and not exclusive.
That's...not a really big perk. They get almost nothing for it aside from 'I learn weapons faster'.
>If rangers were the only survival primary guild I would think that would be pretty unique as well.
Just having a skill set placement doesn't make you 'the best' at something (see: barbarians and weapons), it only means you learn it faster. If we're going this route though, there would only be 1 prime guild for every skill set? So the game would have Empaths, Rangers, Barbarians, and Paladins?
Clerics and War Mages both have the same skill set (Magic, lore/weapons) but they feel very different and distinct because of abilities and spell options. An at-level cleric has a ton of defense options when compared to a WM, who has a lot of random damage/debilitation options. So despite both being magic prime, WMs are way better at offense, and clerics are way better at defense.
Uh, what? Barb damage output is vastly lower than any other guild. A magic user can stat RT free damage abilities and debilitations, infinite buffs that are instant-on, and still output the same damage as a barb with weapons. Barbs have a hard limitation on what they can do in the form of inner fire, they have no magic damage abilities, and several of their abilities require either exiting combat or ramp up time.
>They're also the only guild that has weapons primary which makes them pretty unique since lore primary, magic primary, and survival primary and not exclusive.
That's...not a really big perk. They get almost nothing for it aside from 'I learn weapons faster'.
>If rangers were the only survival primary guild I would think that would be pretty unique as well.
Just having a skill set placement doesn't make you 'the best' at something (see: barbarians and weapons), it only means you learn it faster. If we're going this route though, there would only be 1 prime guild for every skill set? So the game would have Empaths, Rangers, Barbarians, and Paladins?
Clerics and War Mages both have the same skill set (Magic, lore/weapons) but they feel very different and distinct because of abilities and spell options. An at-level cleric has a ton of defense options when compared to a WM, who has a lot of random damage/debilitation options. So despite both being magic prime, WMs are way better at offense, and clerics are way better at defense.
JWARK04
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/17/2016 08:55 AM CST
Oh I'm not suggesting rangers be the only survival primary guild, it was just to illustrate my thoughts on it. Having a primary skillset with the most skills is a perk, though. Your TDP potential is higher. That is sort of not really relevant to this discussion I think, though.
It's a bit hard to explain, have you played a ranger up very high? There's nothing I can set out to accomplish with it that some other guild can't do better, at least that's what it feels like.
I'm not sure I agree barb damage output is vastly lower than any other guild. Possibly so but it's definitely not lower than any of the guilds I play. And vastly lower? I'm not even saying barbs are overpowered or anything I'm just saying they fill that niche.
It's a bit hard to explain, have you played a ranger up very high? There's nothing I can set out to accomplish with it that some other guild can't do better, at least that's what it feels like.
I'm not sure I agree barb damage output is vastly lower than any other guild. Possibly so but it's definitely not lower than any of the guilds I play. And vastly lower? I'm not even saying barbs are overpowered or anything I'm just saying they fill that niche.
BADGOPHER
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/17/2016 09:07 AM CST
>I'm not sure I agree barb damage output is vastly lower than any other guild. Possibly so but it's definitely not lower than any of the guilds I play. And vastly lower? I'm not even saying barbs are overpowered or anything I'm just saying they fill that niche.
You'll need to explain how, I guess.
My level 20 barb can use 1-2 berserk, 1-2 form, and a roar pretty frequently. My level 20 War mage can stack fireball, ES, SUF, SW, AB (what? I use it for utility, I could swap zephyr in instead for the same mana cost but less training), tremor, and MAF. My WM could mimic the barbarian by simply casting SUF/Zeph, using tremor or frostbite as a debilitation, and still outperform the barb because he can then start throwing in fireballs or stone strikes or other direct damage spells on top of weapon and debilitation damage.
Both use the same weapons and have the same stats.
This isn't really specific to WMs though, I could do a similar example with a Paladin or Bard.
>Having a primary skillset with the most skills is a perk, though. Your TDP potential is higher.
There was a discussion about this in their folders this/last month. It's really not as big a deal as you might think.
You'll need to explain how, I guess.
My level 20 barb can use 1-2 berserk, 1-2 form, and a roar pretty frequently. My level 20 War mage can stack fireball, ES, SUF, SW, AB (what? I use it for utility, I could swap zephyr in instead for the same mana cost but less training), tremor, and MAF. My WM could mimic the barbarian by simply casting SUF/Zeph, using tremor or frostbite as a debilitation, and still outperform the barb because he can then start throwing in fireballs or stone strikes or other direct damage spells on top of weapon and debilitation damage.
Both use the same weapons and have the same stats.
This isn't really specific to WMs though, I could do a similar example with a Paladin or Bard.
>Having a primary skillset with the most skills is a perk, though. Your TDP potential is higher.
There was a discussion about this in their folders this/last month. It's really not as big a deal as you might think.
JWARK04
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/17/2016 09:26 AM CST
Ok, I believe you then I was mistaken about Barbarians and their damage. I see the point with TM plus weapon damage. That is something barbs do not have.
Thank you for the discussion I learned something.
Thank you for the discussion I learned something.
DR-NAOHHI
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/17/2016 12:18 PM CST
To return briefly to the topic of scouting.. how would these ideas sit with you all?
Improve existing system
* Discern more information on appraisal of creatures.
* ANALYZE for Tactics also teaching Scouting. Maybe room for something else in this.
* ANALYZE DANGER for various harvesting areas leans on Scouting experience for Rangers, compounding other skills used for it.
New system
* SCOUT AREA (would be new) - enables you to see the biome, terrain, and ground type as well as items you're likely to find with foraging. Trains Scouting and Outdoorsmanship.
---
NaOH+HI
Improve existing system
* Discern more information on appraisal of creatures.
* ANALYZE for Tactics also teaching Scouting. Maybe room for something else in this.
* ANALYZE DANGER for various harvesting areas leans on Scouting experience for Rangers, compounding other skills used for it.
New system
* SCOUT AREA (would be new) - enables you to see the biome, terrain, and ground type as well as items you're likely to find with foraging. Trains Scouting and Outdoorsmanship.
---
NaOH+HI
JWARK04
Re: Trash Pandas for Everyone - Current Ranger Woes
01/17/2016 12:24 PM CST
<* Discern more information on appraisal of creatures.>
I do not currently need or use any information I get from appraising creatures personally. The only reason I appraise creatures is to learn appraisal skill. I'm not sure how it would be useful to me.
<* ANALYZE for Tactics also teaching Scouting. Maybe room for something else in this.>
Teaching scouting sounds cool. But still it's just a way to train scouting not an actual use for it?
<* ANALYZE DANGER for various harvesting areas leans on Scouting experience for Rangers, compounding other skills used for it.>
Not familiar enough with lumberjacking to comment.
<* SCOUT AREA (would be new) - enables you to see the biome, terrain, and ground type as well as items you're likely to find with foraging. Trains Scouting and Outdoorsmanship.>
I don't really understand how that would be useful personally except another way to train scouting. Outdoorsmanship is already very easy to train.
I do not currently need or use any information I get from appraising creatures personally. The only reason I appraise creatures is to learn appraisal skill. I'm not sure how it would be useful to me.
<* ANALYZE for Tactics also teaching Scouting. Maybe room for something else in this.>
Teaching scouting sounds cool. But still it's just a way to train scouting not an actual use for it?
<* ANALYZE DANGER for various harvesting areas leans on Scouting experience for Rangers, compounding other skills used for it.>
Not familiar enough with lumberjacking to comment.
<* SCOUT AREA (would be new) - enables you to see the biome, terrain, and ground type as well as items you're likely to find with foraging. Trains Scouting and Outdoorsmanship.>
I don't really understand how that would be useful personally except another way to train scouting. Outdoorsmanship is already very easy to train.
