While I feel bad for Barbs and Thieves that their many years without magic will come to a grinding halt "soon"(tm), is anyone else bothered by the fact that they will have their skills grandfathered and granted the appropriate number of TDPs while we were denied grandfathering when TM was given to us?

It's a very different situation.

The Ranger/Paladin case may have been unfair - I can see either side of that argument - but the overwhelming majority of a Barbarian's effectiveness (beyond raw ranks) comes from the very systems being tied to these new skills. You can't really compare that to losing a few stat-based ways to kill a target (which were replaced by disablers to help make other methods easier IIRC).

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"That's how I knew who you were. You were always like "Blah blah blah I'm a Barbarian oh-my-god." -my gf

>Rangers got screwed, but the answer isn't to screw barbarians as well.

This.

Who knows... Maybe beseeches will get converted over and we'll get some sweet, sweet freebie TDPs too.

-pete

>>Agreed. All I'm suggesting is consistency.

... huh?

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The Moose
"My advice? Run to a safe room, then re-roll. It's guaranteed awesome."

As is usual, I'm going to agree with Coper.

While I think an argument could have been made for some TM grandfathering, only a couple Ranger spells dealt damage. Magic - especially killing with magical power (TM) in particular - has always been well outside of the Ranger guild's focus.

Conversely, magical resistance and abstinence from magical devices is one of the premier themes of the Barbarian guild, and all of their primary abilities interact with magic resistance in some way.

Losing the ability to deal damage with Branch Break isn't really analogous to having all your abilities suddenly becoming gimped.

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"Limited in nature yet infinite in desire - men are like fallen gods."
- Alphonse de Lamartine

>>This time around I am very glad that the GMs see the wisdom in grandfathering after our experience to the contrary.

The man I am today would do exactly the same thing the man I was a few years ago did, given the circumstances I had to navigate. The only significant difference between now and then is that today I wouldn't have bothered talking about it as much.

I would rather you think of me as a callous jerk, if that helps you enjoy the game, than fall into the belief that hysteria and vitriol moved me toward anything other than annoyance.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

>>Mod, before you pull this, please forward it to armifier.

Why not just write him? DR-Armifer@play.net

>>I would love to care that you are annoyed by us but the fact is that, based on the board post I've read, I find you to be full of yourself to the point that you rarely take into full account the opinions of others. I in turn, find this annoying. You of course will not care that I am annoyed, proving that it's a waste of my time to care that you are don't like us telling you that you are wrong.

To be honest, I used to think that it was a mistake not to grandfather for Paladins and Rangers. But now that I see the whole picture, I agree with how it was handled. I don't believe Paladins and Rangers were screwed at all (not with the lethal stat based spell changes). In fact, magic primaries were being screwed since they had to sacrifice skillset yet didn't have the most devastating killing magic when compared to Smite Foe and Break Branch.

There is a fundamental difference between the new upcoming skills and TM back then. TM does not fuel a Ranger or Paladin's buff spells, it does not fuel their abilities. It was not and is not central to maintaining effectiveness from a Ranger or a Paladin. That is being accounted for and it is the reason why they are planning on grandfathering in the future.

If anything, I'd say Rangers and Paladins were screwed when they weren't allowed effective ways to train TM from the beginning. At this point, you just have to understand that it's a new direction and sometimes it gets worse before it gets good. Just like rebuilding a football franchise, heh.

I'd agree with you Vee if rangers had be given a little TLC in the magic department... I'll even go as far as to say I like the new BB since it fits in the model they have and the new model is an honest fix to a bad problem. The game as a whole IS better because of the change. What I don't agree with is that 1. Rangers have more advanced TM spells and 2. While rangers were using TM "type" spells for a very long time before the change, nothing was done to compensate them for that effort.

This along with the fact that we keep getting strung along with what's "going" to happen makes it hard for me to believe that any of the GMs other than Audacia could give a rodents rectum about the ranger guild.

We have a few "ok" things but it makes me sad that most of the older rangers I've talked to have the attitude "The only good thing about rangers is that we've learned to deal with lots of crap"

Don't confuse this with not appreciating the effort it's taken to do what's been done so far. I've done just enough coding to realize that 1. it's a LOT of work and 2. I suck at it. As a result, I really appreciate the work our GM staff puts in. As a whole, the game is improving... but as a guild, rangers are no longer recognized IG to be of much if any value.

Armifier - Thanks for sticking my foot in my mouth by leaving the critical post and responding to it. I honestly figured my observations, flawed or not, would fall on deaf ears. I don't expect anything would or could be done about the grandfathering of TM that should have happened. What I would like to know is, will rangers have anything to look forward to in the future other than more things in our sphere of influence being handed out to other guilds while we sit on our hands. My fear is that eventually this batch of gms is going to get burnt out and it will be about 3 days before it's time to look at the ranger guild... wouldn't be the first time that's happened to us.

Main Entry: scha·den·freu·de
Pronunciation: \ˈshä-dən-ˌfrȯi-də\
Function: noun
Usage: often capitalized
Etymology: German, from Schaden damage + Freude joy
Date: 1895
: enjoyment obtained from the troubles of others

Well, I don't take join in harm done to others, but I do honestly appreciate your candidness. Keep us in mind when you get past system level. The ranger guild has a lot to offer in the way of potential for unique stuff in our sphere of influence if there are people to help us get it done. If I was better at coding I'd have been begging to help long ago.

>>Keep us in mind when you get past system level.

All right, going to caveat this with "no promises, things outside my control change, may disagree with you, etc."

What do you want out of the Ranger spellbook right now? Assume that Magic 3.0 will take care of TM issues by itself, where do you want the spellbook to grow past that?

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

<<Or, what if Dragon Dance were changed to use a new skill. OPness aside, I'd support grandfathering it as well. Oh wait, that's already happening. >>

Difference between primary and secondary abilities. I don't think there was talk of grandfathering vocals for the possible roar change that may include them in the calcs, for example. Losing their stat-based attack spells did not destroy the effectiveness of any well-trained ranger character, especially since BB (and probably other spells, I didn't pay attention) became decent disablers independent of TM. Now if the character was completely reliant on one OP attack to compete...

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Zrxa says, "Vashir is a bad man."

<<Irrelevant. Also, Rangers and Paladins are magic tertiary.>>

I wasn't talking about skillsets, I was talking about how important the abilities are to the guild's performance.

<<except that you can easily lock vocals at will and have been able to for many years>>

Rangers and paladins not having a way to train TM was a mistake. That doesn't mean every ranger should have been given free TM ranks because of it.

<<And losing x ability wouldn't destroy any well-trained y character. That's irrelevant.>>

Actually losing buffs does a great job of destroying characters. I found this out twice over at the past two Northern Watch spar nights.

<<Irrelevant. The previous OPness of spells like break branch have nothing to do with the skill grandfathering decision. >>

Okay, I'll put it another way: relying on a single method of attack is a bad way to go. If I lost every rank in HX that I've earned I would be able to recover without much of an issue.

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Zrxa says, "Vashir is a bad man."

>>Didn't rangers and paladins have over a year's warning on the change? Didn't they have access to the two AP TM spells to back train with?

I don't care one way or another but saying that they had a years notice and two AP spells doesn't really mean anything when they didn't have any way to train other than classes for the previous 10 years.

>That doesn't mean every ranger should have been given free TM ranks because of it.

I never said they should get free ranks. Ever.

Also, this:

I don't care one way or another but saying that they had a years notice and two AP spells doesn't really mean anything when they didn't have any way to train other than classes for the previous 10 years.

The bottom line is, mech changes shouldn't require years of backtraining.

<<I never said they should get free ranks. Ever.>>

That's what grandfathering is.

<<The bottom line is, mech changes shouldn't require years of backtraining>>

They didn't require any backtraining, unless the players chose those guilds specifically because they wanted to use spells to directly kill people, in which case I'm not really sure the fault lies with the GMs or the mechanics.

I've seen the current BB used very effectively, and coupled with their other abilities and skillset placement I don't think rangers are suffering too terribly. Paladins either - I know Glemm, Silus, and Firegard do just fine without TM attacks, at any rate.

Who was so crippled by a lack of TM ranks that they actually HAD to backtrain for years to become competitive again?

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Zrxa says, "Vashir is a bad man."

>>Or, what if Dragon Dance were changed to use a new skill. OPness aside, I'd support grandfathering it as well. Oh wait, that's already happening.

The new skill that will be used will govern every last dance and berserk a Barbarian has. That means, just about every last buff a Barbarian can use.

>>And if they based CL damage off of a new magic skill called Area of Effect Magic and gave you a year to train it up via some other spell, that would be ok?

The difference is, a new magic skill called Area of Effect won't cripple WM from using every last one of their self buffs. In the case of Barbarians, a new Inner Fire skill MUST be grandfathered or every last dance and berserk will become useless for a Barbarian.

The choice to not grandfather TM did NOT cripple the entire arsenal of Paladins nor Rangers. A Ranger is still able to cast EM effectively, a Ranger is still able to cast SOTT effectively. A Paladin is still able to cast all their buffs effectively.

If you can't see the difference between the two I don't know what to say to you.

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Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

>>Sure it does. If you had wanted to, you could have put 400+ ranks of TM on your character in that time. Maybe more.

Yes, grind out a year of keeping TM locked (under old exp), neglect my at level skills, play 24/7 to make up for my previous 8 years of being unable to train TM with a standards spell. Sounds fair.

I mean, I do have years of my life to throw away.

btw. I'm over the change. The rest of you should be. Props to Taghz and a few others who were able to pound this skill.

Death Dealer Adakin of Prime
WorldsBestMagic Kastr of TF

"The Key To Immortality Is Living A Life Worth Remembering."

"Killing Time Murders Opportunities."

>>You're thinking as a magic primary and someone who apparently has a lot of time to train though. A year isn't enough time for a semi-casual player to get 400 ranks in any tert skill. not in prime anyway. If you still think you can, you have way too much time on your hands.

A year is plenty enough time to train a skill that does not in any way devastate or cripple the functioning of your guild.

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Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

>>A year is plenty enough time to train a skill that does not in any way devastate or cripple the functioning of your guild.

To get it at level? No it's not. Assuming a high level anyway.

Once again, I understand why they didn't grandfather, that's not the issue that I'm arguing. The issue is Mazrian, and apparently now you, saying that a year is enough time to get a tert skill to level if you're a high level.