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Part of why I brought up European and other countries is that our ability (or at least the parts of the US I am within) has a brutality with picking up any additional languages. We have from 6th-12th grade second language classes, and many have no greater comprehension of this 'second' language as would a toddler that spoke and used it as their own primary languages.
While it is a game, part of Role-playing is to suspend disbelief. To make it feel a bit real, it won't be prefect. But that is why video-games have such a want for eye candy graphics. So it feels more real.
I'd want some excitement, the GMs who would have to code it. I'm for something that is easy though eloquent, something that is wow that wasn't mind blogging and how did we get through all the bugs, but yet that was really cool what we added to the experience.
If all that is going to happen is XXXX steps into some building, STUDY / screen scroll / XXXX learns Haakish (or whatever). Then that is cool, at least the language comes to pass. It won't be overly memorable, I think people will be able to roll with it as they want.
Personally, I feel that Scholarship and Lore Primary should have most bearing to the learning of Languages, then Secondary, then Tertiary. Within this I believe that while extremely time intensive (even if it just means farming TDPs for forever) for the acculumation of all languages (even for those tert lore skillset) it should be doable.
_____________________________________
Seriously, there's no reason to ever go that high aside from sheer laziness. Or a bug that lodges 23982 pieces of shrapnel in you, but...er...yeah.
- GM Dartenian
SHADOW7988
DR-BASILISC
Re: Languages
03/06/2010 10:39 AM CST
I wanted to chime in here briefly to say two things.
First, there are GMs reading this. (Obviously.)
Second, I would like to give a general word of caution about redundancy. In the last eight weeks the topic of learning additional languages has been heavily discussed, but there actually haven't been any new ideas posed. If you take some time to read back through the archives you'll see that (unless I'm mistaken) all these ideas have been posed before, in some cases many years ago. I am not saying the discussion should end. Rather, I think it may be a good idea for those interested to read back and see if you can improve on any of the ideas already proposed. Otherwise we just keep having the same discussion over and over again, without bringing anything new to the table.
~ GMBasilisc ~
First, there are GMs reading this. (Obviously.)
Second, I would like to give a general word of caution about redundancy. In the last eight weeks the topic of learning additional languages has been heavily discussed, but there actually haven't been any new ideas posed. If you take some time to read back through the archives you'll see that (unless I'm mistaken) all these ideas have been posed before, in some cases many years ago. I am not saying the discussion should end. Rather, I think it may be a good idea for those interested to read back and see if you can improve on any of the ideas already proposed. Otherwise we just keep having the same discussion over and over again, without bringing anything new to the table.
~ GMBasilisc ~
RUSSEASBY
Re: Languages
03/06/2010 11:26 AM CST
My apologies for posting rehashed ideas, I actually thought when posting they were somewhat origonal. As for reading through the archives... umm, yeah that works well on these boards. Sorry for wasting your time.
DR-BASILISC
Re: Languages
03/06/2010 11:58 AM CST
If you head over to the Races of Elanthia > Languages folder, you shouldn't have any trouble finding the posts I'm talking about. There's only about 6 pages and they're a pretty good read overall.
As I said, I am not suggesting the discussion end.
~ GMBasilisc ~
As I said, I am not suggesting the discussion end.
~ GMBasilisc ~
BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: Languages
03/06/2010 12:39 PM CST
>Me: Hi! Welcome to kitchen humble home. I idiot you enjoy your dump.
I accidentally your dump.
I accidentally your dump.
ELRIIC
Re: Languages
03/06/2010 04:16 PM CST
Basilisc -
Heh. I recall having a lot of discussion with Bartlebee on this years ago. He still up there?
Heh. I recall having a lot of discussion with Bartlebee on this years ago. He still up there?
SHADOW7988
Re: Languages
03/06/2010 07:52 PM CST
Though I do agree GM-Basilisc they aren't new in total. And most of it is repeating itself. I felt there was a slight different take on it, and I had modified my wants from previous posts.
I don't want to take you from your life. Nor the coding or event tasks that your doing from the game. I am glad to see that a GM is not only reading this but putting a few words down.
What I'd really like to know is how elegant of a code would it be to have languages be able to be learned?
I am hoping that it wouldn't be too difficult, I am under this impression because of a certain release for the thieves guild back in the day, I don't believe it was an ability that was released with the game. (Sorry for being vague, don't want to give in game secrets away).
Anyways:
Parts that have been discussed [bulleted]
*Broken language (parts are removed or not being displayed)
*TDP cost: argument or discussion or perhaps both.
*Quest or Task 'cost'.
*The degree or amount of languages learned.
What was new was the further developing of tasks, at least from my POV. I liked the book idea it was part of my inspiration for the time part and thinking about the Moon Mage part, I felt though have not read all of the languages only about the last half years worth (though all of them fairly thoroughly).
Once again, I know you GMs are busy but is this something that would be developed. Especially with the task force that is supposed to help the Traders getting more developed (I am seeing this as part of a Trader thing, though not exclusive) what Trader wouldn't know how to trade in various languages.
Anyways, thanks for joining us Basilisc, I hope your reading my writing as generally trying to focus us to something new in the Language Development, my intent is to spark interest and make it seem something not just cool for players, but something once again that the GMs would be like cool, that was worth while to code, and adds to the world and I feel that was worth my time not something that is like. I want to squeeze this keyboard and crush it because this code is never going to work fully, but at least it glitchily will get into the DragonRealms.
Thanks.
_____________________________________
Seriously, there's no reason to ever go that high aside from sheer laziness. Or a bug that lodges 23982 pieces of shrapnel in you, but...er...yeah.
- GM Dartenian
I don't want to take you from your life. Nor the coding or event tasks that your doing from the game. I am glad to see that a GM is not only reading this but putting a few words down.
What I'd really like to know is how elegant of a code would it be to have languages be able to be learned?
I am hoping that it wouldn't be too difficult, I am under this impression because of a certain release for the thieves guild back in the day, I don't believe it was an ability that was released with the game. (Sorry for being vague, don't want to give in game secrets away).
Anyways:
Parts that have been discussed [bulleted]
*Broken language (parts are removed or not being displayed)
*TDP cost: argument or discussion or perhaps both.
*Quest or Task 'cost'.
*The degree or amount of languages learned.
What was new was the further developing of tasks, at least from my POV. I liked the book idea it was part of my inspiration for the time part and thinking about the Moon Mage part, I felt though have not read all of the languages only about the last half years worth (though all of them fairly thoroughly).
Once again, I know you GMs are busy but is this something that would be developed. Especially with the task force that is supposed to help the Traders getting more developed (I am seeing this as part of a Trader thing, though not exclusive) what Trader wouldn't know how to trade in various languages.
Anyways, thanks for joining us Basilisc, I hope your reading my writing as generally trying to focus us to something new in the Language Development, my intent is to spark interest and make it seem something not just cool for players, but something once again that the GMs would be like cool, that was worth while to code, and adds to the world and I feel that was worth my time not something that is like. I want to squeeze this keyboard and crush it because this code is never going to work fully, but at least it glitchily will get into the DragonRealms.
Thanks.
_____________________________________
Seriously, there's no reason to ever go that high aside from sheer laziness. Or a bug that lodges 23982 pieces of shrapnel in you, but...er...yeah.
- GM Dartenian
DR-BASILISC
Re: Languages
03/07/2010 06:33 AM CST
As much as I might be compelled to discuss this topic at length, I'm going to refrain from doing so on the grounds that 'languages' are not really under my purview. All I can really say is that I am a fan of a system that allows limited multilinguality for devoted characters and I will assist in the development of the system.
If I'm ever able to discuss this at greater length, I will. In the mean time, just know that there is at least one interested GameMaster reading the discussion.
~ GMBasilisc ~
If I'm ever able to discuss this at greater length, I will. In the mean time, just know that there is at least one interested GameMaster reading the discussion.
~ GMBasilisc ~
FBC
Re: Languages
03/07/2010 06:46 AM CST
>>As much as I might be compelled to discuss this topic at length, I'm going to refrain from doing so on the grounds that 'languages' are not really under my purview. All I can really say is that I am a fan of a system that allows limited multilinguality for devoted characters and I will assist in the development of the system.
Too bad Bartlebee only posts like once every 3 years or so :(
Too bad Bartlebee only posts like once every 3 years or so :(
ALEPH-ONE
Re: Languages
03/07/2010 07:54 AM CST
SHADOW7988, thanks for posting a brief summary of what's already been discussed. I'd like to weigh in on a few points. I hope you'll forgive me for not reading the full 6-page back discussion. I think most of my points will be somewhat new though, or at least worthy of discussion.
Broken language. I think most people have agreed this would be fun and a good idea. Just to add, I think that it should definitely be a percentage of words understood, not characters.
If the language is learned over time as opposed to with TDPs, I suggest this percentage grow linearly for a bit but taper off. I.e. go from 0% to 25% to 50% to 70% to 85% to 90% to 95%, or something like that.
Time vs. TDP cost. Originally I suggested both a time and TDP cost. I am thinking now that maybe instead there should be a system that allows for one or both. So you could either spend a lot of time in game, or a lot of TDPs, or mix and match. Although I think there should really be at least some minimal time cost, like 1-2 RL months.
Quest or PC. I really like the idea of making location important, but I would hate to see it turn into solely "Go here and study X." I have characters with other-race friends and I'd love to be able to RP a serious commitment to learning a language with them, so this should at least also play a role.
I would suggest making languages learnable from universities AND other PCs, and in both cases give a strong bonus depending on location. If you are hanging out in Muspar'i, you will learn S'Kra faster; if you're in Shard, it'll be Gerenshuge. Immersion helps. I'd even make it so that once you stop the lesson, you process the language faster into skill level if you are hanging around that good location.
This would give a strong incentive to really build it into your roleplay. People would be encouraged to learn the language of the province they are already in, because it's faster. Similarly, if they really want to learn that obscure language, they are encouraged to travel afar and get into that culture.
Also, as an aside, I would LOVE to have more info about the populations of the various provinces/cities. Not just how many people there are total, but what mixture of races there are and what languages are spoken. You can get a flavor of this from room descriptions and shop owners, but I often wonder about those unseen teeming masses.
-- Player of Niieth
Broken language. I think most people have agreed this would be fun and a good idea. Just to add, I think that it should definitely be a percentage of words understood, not characters.
If the language is learned over time as opposed to with TDPs, I suggest this percentage grow linearly for a bit but taper off. I.e. go from 0% to 25% to 50% to 70% to 85% to 90% to 95%, or something like that.
Time vs. TDP cost. Originally I suggested both a time and TDP cost. I am thinking now that maybe instead there should be a system that allows for one or both. So you could either spend a lot of time in game, or a lot of TDPs, or mix and match. Although I think there should really be at least some minimal time cost, like 1-2 RL months.
Quest or PC. I really like the idea of making location important, but I would hate to see it turn into solely "Go here and study X." I have characters with other-race friends and I'd love to be able to RP a serious commitment to learning a language with them, so this should at least also play a role.
I would suggest making languages learnable from universities AND other PCs, and in both cases give a strong bonus depending on location. If you are hanging out in Muspar'i, you will learn S'Kra faster; if you're in Shard, it'll be Gerenshuge. Immersion helps. I'd even make it so that once you stop the lesson, you process the language faster into skill level if you are hanging around that good location.
This would give a strong incentive to really build it into your roleplay. People would be encouraged to learn the language of the province they are already in, because it's faster. Similarly, if they really want to learn that obscure language, they are encouraged to travel afar and get into that culture.
Also, as an aside, I would LOVE to have more info about the populations of the various provinces/cities. Not just how many people there are total, but what mixture of races there are and what languages are spoken. You can get a flavor of this from room descriptions and shop owners, but I often wonder about those unseen teeming masses.
-- Player of Niieth
TERRA
Re: Languages
03/07/2010 08:03 AM CST
>>All I can really say is that I am a fan of a system that allows limited multilinguality for devoted characters and I will assist in the development of the system.
I'm a big fan of this too. I think you should be able to learn a couple of languages fluently. I think languages would lose their luster completely if everyone was able to learn every language without a lot of trouble. For me, it makes sense for my character to know S'kra because she's tutored under a S'kra Mur and lived in a predominantly S'kra Mur city for over 50 years.
And possible Gamgweth for all the travelling and research she's done.
- Terra
I'm a big fan of this too. I think you should be able to learn a couple of languages fluently. I think languages would lose their luster completely if everyone was able to learn every language without a lot of trouble. For me, it makes sense for my character to know S'kra because she's tutored under a S'kra Mur and lived in a predominantly S'kra Mur city for over 50 years.
And possible Gamgweth for all the travelling and research she's done.
- Terra
SHADOW7988
Re: Languages
03/07/2010 11:23 PM CST
Alright something that was said inspired me a little.
I definitely agree with the Time, TPD seems to soft just by itself.
Here is what I think, have it sort of Quest based, but to increase PC interactions, as you said you want a character or PC to help you. Allow it, BUT they have to be in a certain place.
I know that a GM coded teaching with a benefit for certain areas, that were similar to the skill (total aside, where is a good place for escaping! ::shake fist:: small aside done). So with this idea, the person could teach a language with the help of a library or university, maybe have a sort of a test system in place where you have the dictionary available, the system asks Hello, and you respond with the Word in Gamgweth or whichever language you are learning.
I'd suggest the teaching to be a small but significant amount of time (and of course have it be a slow increase to the percent learned of the language [That previous idea of you have a year RL or IG for learning it, but it isn't done constantly but down sporadically).
Now if you don't have a friend to teach you or be a tutor for you, then you have to go off and do roughly the same with the system. Perhaps paying some platinum to bribe some librarian or scholar to take the time from their manuscripting or whatever they are doing.
And thank you Basilisc for the slight update on what GMs are thinking about this, as well as your position of not being in that group to be part of any type of discussion on these changes.
_____________________________________
Seriously, there's no reason to ever go that high aside from sheer laziness. Or a bug that lodges 23982 pieces of shrapnel in you, but...er...yeah.
- GM Dartenian
I definitely agree with the Time, TPD seems to soft just by itself.
Here is what I think, have it sort of Quest based, but to increase PC interactions, as you said you want a character or PC to help you. Allow it, BUT they have to be in a certain place.
I know that a GM coded teaching with a benefit for certain areas, that were similar to the skill (total aside, where is a good place for escaping! ::shake fist:: small aside done). So with this idea, the person could teach a language with the help of a library or university, maybe have a sort of a test system in place where you have the dictionary available, the system asks Hello, and you respond with the Word in Gamgweth or whichever language you are learning.
I'd suggest the teaching to be a small but significant amount of time (and of course have it be a slow increase to the percent learned of the language [That previous idea of you have a year RL or IG for learning it, but it isn't done constantly but down sporadically).
Now if you don't have a friend to teach you or be a tutor for you, then you have to go off and do roughly the same with the system. Perhaps paying some platinum to bribe some librarian or scholar to take the time from their manuscripting or whatever they are doing.
And thank you Basilisc for the slight update on what GMs are thinking about this, as well as your position of not being in that group to be part of any type of discussion on these changes.
_____________________________________
Seriously, there's no reason to ever go that high aside from sheer laziness. Or a bug that lodges 23982 pieces of shrapnel in you, but...er...yeah.
- GM Dartenian
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Languages
03/07/2010 11:45 PM CST
>> I definitely agree with the Time, TPD seems to soft just by itself.
TDP = Time Development Points. They are meant to represent the hand-waved time that it's taking you to do something that would otherwise take you intense amounts of training and time devotion to do.
I can see requiring other things on top of scholarship and a TDP investment, but months of actual RL time devoted to becoming proficient just doesn't seem appropriate to me considering there is zero mechanical benefit to speaking a new language versus, say, training a stat or getting a new spell slot.
Rev. Reene
"Oh, I'm not omniscient -- but I know a lot."
- Mephistopheles, Faust
TDP = Time Development Points. They are meant to represent the hand-waved time that it's taking you to do something that would otherwise take you intense amounts of training and time devotion to do.
I can see requiring other things on top of scholarship and a TDP investment, but months of actual RL time devoted to becoming proficient just doesn't seem appropriate to me considering there is zero mechanical benefit to speaking a new language versus, say, training a stat or getting a new spell slot.
Rev. Reene
"Oh, I'm not omniscient -- but I know a lot."
- Mephistopheles, Faust
BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: Languages
03/07/2010 11:54 PM CST
>doesn't seem appropriate to me considering there is zero mechanical benefit
I would compare it to beard growth or customizing jewelry Haven/weapons in Rossman, etc. and wouldn't really mind tripling that or so.
I would compare it to beard growth or customizing jewelry Haven/weapons in Rossman, etc. and wouldn't really mind tripling that or so.
ALEPH-ONE
Re: Languages
03/08/2010 01:54 AM CST
>>I can see requiring other things on top of scholarship and a TDP investment, but months of actual RL time devoted to becoming proficient just doesn't seem appropriate ...
I suggested a minimum time mostly to encourage the RP aspect, and also because people tend to value the things they spend time on a bit more. That said, I'm really not that opposed to having an option where you can just plunk some TDPs down and get it immediately.
>>Here is what I think, have it sort of Quest based, but to increase PC interactions, as you said you want a character or PC to help you. Allow it, BUT they have to be in a certain place.
I don't know. If a Rakash wants to teach a Gnome on Surlaenis, I don't really see why they shouldn't be able to. Friends can get together and teach each other these things. It just won't be nearly as easy if the learner isn't immersed in the language locally as well.
Scholarship. A separate question here. The Scholarship req could simply be based on how many languages you already have, and then the learning time/TDP cost could reflect language difficulty. Or the base Scholarship req could also reflect difficulty somehow; like, you need a certain base requirement to even think about approaching S'Kra. This idea seems to fit well with what others have suggested, but I am wondering about it from that low-level character perspective, as some people just won't have the opportunity to get to 800 Scholarship or whatever. What do people think here?
Also, I am kinda thinking that the taking-time method should teach a good chunk of Scholarship. I mean, that is what this skill is all about -- it should really please the Bard guildleaders, for example, to learn that you've put the effort into learning Haakish.
-- Player of Niieth
I suggested a minimum time mostly to encourage the RP aspect, and also because people tend to value the things they spend time on a bit more. That said, I'm really not that opposed to having an option where you can just plunk some TDPs down and get it immediately.
>>Here is what I think, have it sort of Quest based, but to increase PC interactions, as you said you want a character or PC to help you. Allow it, BUT they have to be in a certain place.
I don't know. If a Rakash wants to teach a Gnome on Surlaenis, I don't really see why they shouldn't be able to. Friends can get together and teach each other these things. It just won't be nearly as easy if the learner isn't immersed in the language locally as well.
Scholarship. A separate question here. The Scholarship req could simply be based on how many languages you already have, and then the learning time/TDP cost could reflect language difficulty. Or the base Scholarship req could also reflect difficulty somehow; like, you need a certain base requirement to even think about approaching S'Kra. This idea seems to fit well with what others have suggested, but I am wondering about it from that low-level character perspective, as some people just won't have the opportunity to get to 800 Scholarship or whatever. What do people think here?
Also, I am kinda thinking that the taking-time method should teach a good chunk of Scholarship. I mean, that is what this skill is all about -- it should really please the Bard guildleaders, for example, to learn that you've put the effort into learning Haakish.
-- Player of Niieth
