Warning, Excessive Complaining 10/21/2008 02:14 PM CDT
Ya know, the Analagous Pattern spell Ease Burden bothers me, it bothers me a lot.

Why? Because once again, it takes away from the Gor'Tog advantage of strength. Roll up an Elothean and are weighted down. Is that a problem? Nope, cast a spell.

Roll up a Gor'Tog and don't learn as well. Use a spell? Nope, you're just outta luck.



Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
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Re: Warning, Excessive Complaining 10/21/2008 02:38 PM CDT
I'll admit when the spell first came out I had similar misgivings. They were partially assuaged when I found out that the boost is, at best, moderate, and is a percentage-based boost.

Weak + (percentage of Weak) = only slightly less weak.

Also, its pretty much as fair as it could be, considering spell casting Togs have access to it as well.

That said, I wouldn't mind at all seeing some kind of abilities analogous to the analogous spell patterns that would be available only to non-magic-using guilds, with their own set of minor boosts and functionality.


"Now won't you tell me if you like what you've just heard?
And if you think the point I'm driving at absurd,
Well there's no need to tell me how or tell me why,
But I need to know the reason not to try."
- John Popper, Onslaught
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Re: Warning, Excessive Complaining 10/21/2008 02:55 PM CDT
The more strength and stamina you have the more potential benefit you can get from Ease Burden, so I think Gor'togs arguably benefit more from it.

Elotheans won't be carting around spare 2000 stone boulders unless they waste the TDPs on physicals in the first place.



Rev. Reene

A drunken cleric says, "Huldah. He is one mean poker player, I hear."
A drunken cleric says, "He cheats, of course."
A drunken cleric says, "Phelimmm. He doesn't cheat. Stupid, if you ask me."
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Re: Warning, Excessive Complaining 10/21/2008 03:33 PM CDT
Your analysis is flawed, Caraamon. With equal stats, the races are equal in every way, except for some minor racial modifiers for things like poison and who knows what else. If 20 strength for a tog means more than 20 strength for a gnome, then the gnome should learn faster with equal stats. Is that really what you want?

Also, do agility boosting spells somehow undermine the halfling bonus to agility?
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Re: Warning, Excessive Complaining 10/21/2008 08:30 PM CDT
Yeah I thought they got rid of the racial bonuses.


Drevid



http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html

Cylons... why debugging matters.
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Re: Warning, Excessive Complaining 10/21/2008 10:06 PM CDT
How is my analysis flawed? Here's an example:

Elothean, weak, carrying too much, has two options:
1) Spend a limited pool of TDPs on an expensive stat like strength or stamina
2) Cast a spell using a regenerating pool of mana

Thus, their penalty that they have to balance their mental stat boost is partially (we could argue how partially) negated.

Gor'Tog, begins strong, is easy to boost it, but has a high penalty to experience contributing stats. If they way to learn they have to:
1) Spend a limited pool of TDPs on an expensive stat like intelligence or wisdom
2) Nope, that's it.

What does racial bonuses have to do with anything? I'm talking about TDP costs. We have to pay more for Wisdom and Intelligence, and other races have to pay more (relatively) for strength and stamina. With this spell, they can achieve the equivalent of having more Strength/Stamina without having to pay for it.
And between the generally better performing high balance weapons (compared with high suitability weapons) as well as the rarity of serious poison/disease, carrying capacity is one of the few reasons to raise either (for the general population).

As for the belief that it helps Gor'Togs more.... you're a Gor'Tog, why do you need more strength? Seriously, how much are you trying to carry? At a certain point, most people cap their need for strength, which is usually pretty low. And with this spell, it can be even lower.




Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
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Re: Warning, Excessive Complaining 10/21/2008 10:15 PM CDT
Elothean =/= ease burden
Gor'Tog =/= no ease burden

This invalidates your entire argument.

-- The Omen Speaker



Caelumia whispers to Amelilu, "OOC: that would be awesome. I'd get cael a sorcery brand on her butt or something."
Amelilu whispers to Caelumia, "OOC: HAHA."
Amelilu whispers to Caelumia, "OOC: PROPERTY OF EALUIK."
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Re: Warning, Excessive Complaining 10/21/2008 10:26 PM CDT
The flaw is in that the same arguments can be made about all stat boosting spells and abilities. If they were to take away Ease Burden because it negates the Tog strength/stamina bonus, they'd also have to take away Heroic Strength, Courage, Bear Strength, Bear Dance amongst others, most of the Berserks, etc. Because all of those are fueled by regenerating pools of mana/inner fire/whatever else.

Then there's the issue of spells/abilities that boost agility/reflex, because, as has been pointed out, those negate the bonuses given to Halflings/gnomes/prydaen/elves, etc.

Personally I think Togs need something to set us apart a bit more than just the claim to being naturally the strongest out there (though that shouldn't be played down, of course). I hate to sound like a broken record but what Togs need is more lore/history, though we're far better for that in general than we were several years ago. Also, if the "feats" system ever gets implemented, I think that's where racial differences will be allowed to shine the most, from a mechanical standpoint.


"Now won't you tell me if you like what you've just heard?
And if you think the point I'm driving at absurd,
Well there's no need to tell me how or tell me why,
But I need to know the reason not to try."
- John Popper, Onslaught
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Re: Warning, Excessive Complaining 10/21/2008 11:55 PM CDT
>>Elothean =/= ease burden
>>Gor'Tog =/= no ease burden

Ease Burden is available to 70% of the guilds, therefor any specific race is immaterial.

Whether or not Gor'Togs have access to it is also immaterial, since the majority of us have enough strength that we don't need it.

Many guilds have specific stat boosters, but they are limited to that guild only and in general require a price, such as spell slots. These are available to almost everyone and take no spell slots or really have any down sides at all.




Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
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Re: Warning, Excessive Complaining 10/21/2008 11:59 PM CDT
>> Ease Burden is available to 70% of the guilds, therefor any specific race is immaterial.

Why is this in the Gor'Tog folder then?



Rev. Reene

A drunken cleric says, "Huldah. He is one mean poker player, I hear."
A drunken cleric says, "He cheats, of course."
A drunken cleric says, "Phelimmm. He doesn't cheat. Stupid, if you ask me."
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Re: Warning, Excessive Complaining 10/22/2008 06:49 AM CDT
Caraamon,

Training a character's stats evenly will cost the same for every race. If you weight training towards a character's cheap stats, you have more stats per TDP. If you weight towards its expensive stats, you have fewer stats per TDP. That's the sense in which TDP modifiers offset.

Whether strength/stamina are useful enough is a separate issue. I tend to think they're ok - they do much more than feed into burden.


- Mazrian

The Flying Company
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/huldahspal/flyingcompany.png
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Re: Warning, Excessive Complaining 10/22/2008 04:10 PM CDT
My primary character, as an elf who carries a lot of stuff, no longer needs to use EASE at all. I think of it more as a way to make life easier for beginners than as an excuse not to train particular stats. EASE is also not a stat booster, meaning you don't get any of the other benefits of higher strength. In fact, as it takes a percentage off your burden, people with higher strength will get more bang out of it than others.

.. not that we want to encourage you to carry around more junk!




GM Lohkrian

"In art and dream may you proceed with abandon. In life may you proceed with balance and stealth."
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Re: Warning, Excessive Complaining 10/22/2008 04:41 PM CDT
>I think of it more as a way to make life easier for beginners than as an excuse not to train particular stats.

It doesn't really work that well for low level characters though, given that it takes 70 mana to cap.
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