So a long while ago I posted a suggestion for racial feats. It was pretty resoundingly unpopular.
Recently I spent a while thinking about why, and my impression was that people didn't like the idea mostly because of the potential for regret. That is, we've all already chosen our races, and nobody wants to be told that it turns out they could have min-maxed that thief better with a Halfling + racial feats than with their current Elf.
So, what if feats were implemented, but as a one-time deal, you got to pick from the entire list for your current character? After some cut-off time, they'd become available only to their given races, for new characters that get rolled up.
For a quick rehash of the idea, it goes like this: Stay as you are currently, or optionally buy Feats in exchange for accepting Disadvantages. Feats and Disadvantages would have some overlap but would often be based on race.
A few examples (some taken from recent suggestions):
Overall Feats (available to any race):
Favored Skill. Pick one skill to move up one skillset.
Elf Feats:
Expert Bowman. Small bonus to Bows, Stealth
Connection to Nature. Small bonus to Outdoorsmanship, Scouting, increase in regeneration of Nature bonus
Human Feats:
Relatable. Small bonus to Academics while teaching, ability to teach more students and learn (oneself) more of the skill one is teaching
Jack of All Trades. Very small bonus to all tert skills
Elothean Feats:
Strong Mind. Bonus to resisting vs. Will magic
Affinity for Magic. Small bonus to one magic skill, +2 spell slots
These are meant to give you a very general idea of the flavor I'm suggesting; naturally if implemented they would have to be balanced very carefully. Of course, other races would have their own feats, and Disadvantages would take the same sort of form but obviously be penalties. I'd suggest everyone get 1-2 Feats for free, and thereafter have to pay for them with Disadvantages.
This of course also opens up the possibility that Premium subscribers could purchase Feats with LTBs instead of having to buy them with Disadvantages.
Again, the crux of my idea in this post is that you would be allowed to choose from ANY RACE'S Feats with your current character. Only future characters would be restricted. Would that make this idea more palatable to people?
-- Player of Eyuve
ALEPH-ONE
RAIST
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
04/27/2012 03:18 AM CDT
>Recently I spent a while thinking about why, and my impression was that people didn't like the idea mostly because of the potential for regret.
My issue with it is that it will lead to more cookie cutter characters. With those proposed feats, you'd see most people pick elves for rangers, etc.
Currently, the stat modifiers zero out in the end, for the most part, so there's not a huge penalty to picking an odd race for a guild, but each additional set of bonus drags it further and further from guild equality.
I'm not in favor of that.
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My issue with it is that it will lead to more cookie cutter characters. With those proposed feats, you'd see most people pick elves for rangers, etc.
Currently, the stat modifiers zero out in the end, for the most part, so there's not a huge penalty to picking an odd race for a guild, but each additional set of bonus drags it further and further from guild equality.
I'm not in favor of that.
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Combat Balance List:
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ISHARON
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
04/27/2012 04:02 AM CDT
>>Aleph-One: Again, the crux of my idea in this post is that you would be allowed to choose from ANY RACE'S Feats with your current character. Only future characters would be restricted. Would that make this idea more palatable to people?
In some ways, this is more problematic than your previous idea. If your race has certain inherent abilities, it doesn't make sense (from a lore perspective) to have some period of time in which you could gain access to the inherent abilities of other races.
There is also the potential for unfairness in changing the rules about who has access to which feats. This temporary window of being able to choose any feat would give rise to a class of "legacy" characters who were able to choose the feats of other races. Players will rightly complain that older non-Human characters, for example, were able to get the "Jack of All Trades" feat, but they can't.
A while back, someone proposed "cosmetic" race shifts that would effectively let you "arbitrarily pair the RP aspects of any race with the stat bonuses of any other race." This was rejected in part because of how jarring it would be, RP-wise. While your proposed feat system wouldn't have such drastic impact, I imagine it being rejected along similar grounds.
I'm all for additional race development, but the problems with this idea outweigh the advantages.
>>Aleph-One: This of course also opens up the possibility that Premium subscribers could purchase Feats with LTBs instead of having to buy them with Disadvantages.
Selling significant competitive/mechanical advantages seems like a very bad idea.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
In some ways, this is more problematic than your previous idea. If your race has certain inherent abilities, it doesn't make sense (from a lore perspective) to have some period of time in which you could gain access to the inherent abilities of other races.
There is also the potential for unfairness in changing the rules about who has access to which feats. This temporary window of being able to choose any feat would give rise to a class of "legacy" characters who were able to choose the feats of other races. Players will rightly complain that older non-Human characters, for example, were able to get the "Jack of All Trades" feat, but they can't.
A while back, someone proposed "cosmetic" race shifts that would effectively let you "arbitrarily pair the RP aspects of any race with the stat bonuses of any other race." This was rejected in part because of how jarring it would be, RP-wise. While your proposed feat system wouldn't have such drastic impact, I imagine it being rejected along similar grounds.
I'm all for additional race development, but the problems with this idea outweigh the advantages.
>>Aleph-One: This of course also opens up the possibility that Premium subscribers could purchase Feats with LTBs instead of having to buy them with Disadvantages.
Selling significant competitive/mechanical advantages seems like a very bad idea.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
LEEJ82
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
04/27/2012 05:09 AM CDT
Eh, giving humans the ability to count as any race for the purposes of Academics is not nearly as gamebreaking as giving races passive bonuses to other skills or SvS contests.
If these happened they would need to be something mechanically tangible that scaled appropriately, and it is extremely difficult to find that kind of balance when it relates to skills. Heck, the stat bonuses alone can be gamebreaking in certain scenarios. I didn't go "oh you know it would be superneato if humans got a bonus to Academics!" I pondered the how, why, and potential consequences of it for a long time. The net result is that a human would, compared to another race, fill up their Academics/Skill Being Taught pool just a tiny bit faster than a non-human. Is that an advantage? Without a doubt. Is it going to have a long-term impact on the viability of the character? No.
Find bonuses for every race that slide into that sweet spot and you may see some more support.
If these happened they would need to be something mechanically tangible that scaled appropriately, and it is extremely difficult to find that kind of balance when it relates to skills. Heck, the stat bonuses alone can be gamebreaking in certain scenarios. I didn't go "oh you know it would be superneato if humans got a bonus to Academics!" I pondered the how, why, and potential consequences of it for a long time. The net result is that a human would, compared to another race, fill up their Academics/Skill Being Taught pool just a tiny bit faster than a non-human. Is that an advantage? Without a doubt. Is it going to have a long-term impact on the viability of the character? No.
Find bonuses for every race that slide into that sweet spot and you may see some more support.
ALEPH-ONE
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
04/27/2012 07:04 AM CDT
>>My issue with it is that it will lead to more cookie cutter characters.
Yes, I can see that. I guess the root of my problem is that I feel like I want races to Mean Something. Right now they are almost nothing but window dressing, mechanically. Maybe that is ultimately a good thing, I don't know. But my primary goal was to add flavor and excitement without any really significant mechanical advantages for one race over another. And also ideally there would be enough feats across the races that there would be good reasons to pick many different races for Ranger, for example. Multiple Stealth feats, multiple Nature feats, multiple Bow feats, etc.
What can I say, maybe I just think it would be cool to see an Elf pull out his bow and think, "Uh oh."
>>This temporary window of being able to choose any feat would give rise to a class of "legacy" characters who were able to choose the feats of other races.
Well, we already all have "legacy" characters -- we have access to Vocals, which will pad our lore bonus pools, we can train Mech and craft across multiple disciplines currently, and merchants show up at fests we visit who may never appear again. I see the objection though; maybe this would be too much, and just because we've done it in other arenas doesn't mean we should go ahead and do it here. Again, though, the idea was for the feats to be small enough that it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference.
Another option would be to make all feats available to everyone, but have them cost varying "points", and some feats are sold at a discount to some races.
>>If these happened they would need to be something mechanically tangible that scaled appropriately
Yeah, certainly. I just threw out random examples to give the idea of what I meant, but they aren't balanced in the slightest.
Thanks for the thoughts.
-- Player of Eyuve
Yes, I can see that. I guess the root of my problem is that I feel like I want races to Mean Something. Right now they are almost nothing but window dressing, mechanically. Maybe that is ultimately a good thing, I don't know. But my primary goal was to add flavor and excitement without any really significant mechanical advantages for one race over another. And also ideally there would be enough feats across the races that there would be good reasons to pick many different races for Ranger, for example. Multiple Stealth feats, multiple Nature feats, multiple Bow feats, etc.
What can I say, maybe I just think it would be cool to see an Elf pull out his bow and think, "Uh oh."
>>This temporary window of being able to choose any feat would give rise to a class of "legacy" characters who were able to choose the feats of other races.
Well, we already all have "legacy" characters -- we have access to Vocals, which will pad our lore bonus pools, we can train Mech and craft across multiple disciplines currently, and merchants show up at fests we visit who may never appear again. I see the objection though; maybe this would be too much, and just because we've done it in other arenas doesn't mean we should go ahead and do it here. Again, though, the idea was for the feats to be small enough that it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference.
Another option would be to make all feats available to everyone, but have them cost varying "points", and some feats are sold at a discount to some races.
>>If these happened they would need to be something mechanically tangible that scaled appropriately
Yeah, certainly. I just threw out random examples to give the idea of what I meant, but they aren't balanced in the slightest.
Thanks for the thoughts.
-- Player of Eyuve
YAMCER
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
04/27/2012 07:20 AM CDT
I don't see how any skill bonus to a race would give anything other than a min/max-er bonus. You could give bonus skill sin each of the 5 skill sets for each race, but than it really isn't much of an individualizer. Giving gortogs a two-handed blunt, heavy plate, perception, warding and weaponsmith bonus, no matter how slight, front loads the choice of certain select guilds. The way a typical player of DR views bonuses, any time a bonus becomes the "norm" everything else is considered a penalty. So the reality becomes other races are penalized for not choosing the guild they are front loaded for.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
LEEJ82
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
04/27/2012 10:25 AM CDT
<<Yes, I can see that. I guess the root of my problem is that I feel like I want races to Mean Something.
Some of us still want guilds to Mean Something. We're in a minority. Right now everything is getting jumbled up together. Maybe in a few years we'll break back out towards diversity again.
Some of us still want guilds to Mean Something. We're in a minority. Right now everything is getting jumbled up together. Maybe in a few years we'll break back out towards diversity again.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
04/27/2012 02:51 PM CDT
The problem I have with racial feats in other games is that some are cool and some are useless, and people choose races only for these, instead of rp reasons.
RAIST
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
04/27/2012 05:18 PM CDT
>I guess the root of my problem is that I feel like I want races to Mean Something. Right now they are almost nothing but window dressing, mechanically. Maybe that is ultimately a good thing, I don't know.
I can understand that, but I'm the opposite. I want people to pick a race because they enjoy the race and are well versed in the nuances of that race, thus leading to (in theory) a better RP experience.
I don't want them to pick a race simply because it offers the best mechanical advantage.
Weapons for Sale:
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Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
I can understand that, but I'm the opposite. I want people to pick a race because they enjoy the race and are well versed in the nuances of that race, thus leading to (in theory) a better RP experience.
I don't want them to pick a race simply because it offers the best mechanical advantage.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
04/28/2012 07:29 AM CDT
<<I don't want them to pick a race simply because it offers the best mechanical advantage.>>
i gotta agree. I like the RP of the various races. I know many races gravitate towards certain guilds, but i prefer to have both be more of a RP thing than a min-max thing.
/---
Oh and last one, DR at any given time has a population of weenies that will criticize at the drop of a hat, don't take things personally it happens to everyone.
Leucius
i gotta agree. I like the RP of the various races. I know many races gravitate towards certain guilds, but i prefer to have both be more of a RP thing than a min-max thing.
/---
Oh and last one, DR at any given time has a population of weenies that will criticize at the drop of a hat, don't take things personally it happens to everyone.
Leucius
ALEPH-ONE
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
04/28/2012 07:36 AM CDT
What about general feats, with no race restrictions?
Not too different from items that give you bonuses to X, except you wouldn't have to carry around the item, worry about losing it, etc.
-- Player of Eyuve
Not too different from items that give you bonuses to X, except you wouldn't have to carry around the item, worry about losing it, etc.
-- Player of Eyuve
LEEJ82
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
04/28/2012 08:08 AM CDT
<<What about general feats, with no race restrictions?
<<Not too different from items that give you bonuses to X, except you wouldn't have to carry around the item, worry about losing it, etc.
Further blurs the skillset lines, which are already blurry enough as it is.
<<Not too different from items that give you bonuses to X, except you wouldn't have to carry around the item, worry about losing it, etc.
Further blurs the skillset lines, which are already blurry enough as it is.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
04/29/2012 11:29 AM CDT
>>What about general feats, with no race restrictions?
I've always wanted a system of combat feats purchased with TDPs or ability slots, though I am not sure what this would have to do with the original suggestion...
I've always wanted a system of combat feats purchased with TDPs or ability slots, though I am not sure what this would have to do with the original suggestion...
GORTEOUS
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
06/07/2012 06:23 PM CDT
Give me the feat to turn off moonskin and I'll donate to your campaign.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
VANDILEAR
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
06/07/2012 09:17 PM CDT
or better yet during full moon make it the only chance to turn on or off moonskin. extend the duration to the next full moon, and give the option to resist change or not to.
ALEPH-ONE
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
06/08/2012 01:45 AM CDT
>>Give me the feat to turn off moonskin
To be honest I agree with your argument that the stun should be based on stats. Playability wise that makes the most sense to me.
At the very least you should have some kind of warning feeling for when it's about to happen.
-- Player of Eyuve
To be honest I agree with your argument that the stun should be based on stats. Playability wise that makes the most sense to me.
At the very least you should have some kind of warning feeling for when it's about to happen.
-- Player of Eyuve
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
06/08/2012 07:11 AM CDT
The stun is why I will never play a Rakash. It's a really mind bogglingly stupid design with no benefit.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
06/08/2012 11:52 AM CDT
>>The stun is why I will never play a Rakash. It's a really mind bogglingly stupid design with no benefit.
The stun is dumb I'll grant, but moonskin has benefits. BITE in moonskin is the most vicious non-bonused brawling attack by far. I'm fairly certain moonskin bite is more powerful than punch with haralun knuckles, but that could just be bias.
The stun is dumb I'll grant, but moonskin has benefits. BITE in moonskin is the most vicious non-bonused brawling attack by far. I'm fairly certain moonskin bite is more powerful than punch with haralun knuckles, but that could just be bias.
GORTEOUS
Re: Racial Feats Revisited
06/12/2012 10:57 PM CDT
>> The stun is dumb I'll grant, but moonskin has benefits. BITE in moonskin is the most vicious non-bonused brawling attack by far. I'm fairly certain moonskin bite is more powerful than punch with haralun knuckles, but that could just be bias.
Just get rid of the stun. No one cares about a bite that never gets used because no one likes hitting the suicide button. I guess if you like picking on noobs, sure. For everything else, it falls somewhere between useless and 'oooo, shiny!'.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Just get rid of the stun. No one cares about a bite that never gets used because no one likes hitting the suicide button. I guess if you like picking on noobs, sure. For everything else, it falls somewhere between useless and 'oooo, shiny!'.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
