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I may be wrong, so take this all with a wheelbarrel of salt, but in that post she seems to be referring to the popular conception and portrayal of Bone Elves as, more or less, weird and ridiculously over the top bogeymen that wear skulls and ripped tights and are just Too Goth 4 U. Think of what your average racist redneck might say if asked to describe someone from Saudi Arabia; what you'd probably get are a ton of negative-to-factually-incorrect stereotypes that bear little resemblance to what that culture is actually like. That's kinda what the broader IC culture's conception of Bone Elves is, and that's what doesn't actually exist.
Bone Elves as a clan in general certainly seems to exist, but their relationship to one another and to Sidhlot is extremely unclear and nobody really seems to know what their culture is actually like due to both its insular nature and the association with necromancy. The closest we have is the marriage book, and even then we're not sure how accurate it is since it's explicitly written from the perspective of an outsider with no direct access to the clan, just hearsay from people who claim to have come from it.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
THAYET
DR-PERSIDA
Re: Elves - no clever pun title because we're better than that.
10/31/2015 09:52 AM CDT
>>Post 1125, evike saying they are not. :(
>>Thayet's post in response to the above
Bone Elves are a complicated issue.
It's not quite correct to say that they are fake, and that's not exactly what Evike was saying (If I'm somehow interpreting her wrong she'll absolutely correct me, but I'm pretty positive I didn't miss that GM memo and none of the documentation I have access to on this side makes me think I did.). What I was saying in my post is that Bone Elves haven't been retconned out of existing. They're 'real', but what that realness meas, well...
At the very least, four things are objectively true about Bone Elves:
1) There have absolutely been Elves who have said they were Bone Elves and who have made claims about what that means. Many of them were at least very convincing that they believed what they said to be true.
2) Sidhlot absolutely claimed to have formed a splinter Elf Clan that he called Bone Elves.
3) There are absolutely historical sources that have documented 'facts' about Bone Elves.
4) At least some of what the public seems to think a Bone Elf is or a Bone Elf would dress like is more or less hooey made up either as propaganda to further various agendas or as a marketing tool to sell 'spooky' and 'edgy' items to people who don't know any better.
How much any of that means what the public in general thinks that means, well, I again leave it to Evike for the full clarifications should she deem it is the correct time and manner in which to do so.
-Persida
>>Thayet's post in response to the above
Bone Elves are a complicated issue.
It's not quite correct to say that they are fake, and that's not exactly what Evike was saying (If I'm somehow interpreting her wrong she'll absolutely correct me, but I'm pretty positive I didn't miss that GM memo and none of the documentation I have access to on this side makes me think I did.). What I was saying in my post is that Bone Elves haven't been retconned out of existing. They're 'real', but what that realness meas, well...
At the very least, four things are objectively true about Bone Elves:
1) There have absolutely been Elves who have said they were Bone Elves and who have made claims about what that means. Many of them were at least very convincing that they believed what they said to be true.
2) Sidhlot absolutely claimed to have formed a splinter Elf Clan that he called Bone Elves.
3) There are absolutely historical sources that have documented 'facts' about Bone Elves.
4) At least some of what the public seems to think a Bone Elf is or a Bone Elf would dress like is more or less hooey made up either as propaganda to further various agendas or as a marketing tool to sell 'spooky' and 'edgy' items to people who don't know any better.
How much any of that means what the public in general thinks that means, well, I again leave it to Evike for the full clarifications should she deem it is the correct time and manner in which to do so.
-Persida
DR-EVIKE
Re: Elves - no clever pun title because we're better than that.
10/31/2015 02:15 PM CDT
Both THAYET and Persida have it correct.
Basically, think of this as the best truth from the Elf Books about Bone Elves -- "Bone Elves look like any other Elf".
They are among you, and you won't even know it -- and you SHOULDN'T know it.
Hopefully that, and the two posts from THAYET and Persida help a bit.
~Evike
Basically, think of this as the best truth from the Elf Books about Bone Elves -- "Bone Elves look like any other Elf".
They are among you, and you won't even know it -- and you SHOULDN'T know it.
Hopefully that, and the two posts from THAYET and Persida help a bit.
~Evike
GODKING
Re: Elves - no clever pun title because we're better than that.
10/31/2015 03:41 PM CDT
>>They are among you, and you won't even know it -- and you SHOULDN'T know it.<<
Necromantic Elves?
"When I'm good, I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm better." - Mae West
Necromantic Elves?
"When I'm good, I'm very good, but when I'm bad, I'm better." - Mae West
DR-EVIKE
Re: Elves - no clever pun title because we're better than that.
10/31/2015 08:50 PM CDT
Like... Sorta.
~Evike
~Evike
BENNETTJ13
Re: Elves - no clever pun title because we're better than that.
11/01/2015 07:31 AM CST
While its cool to say "hey I'm a bone elf, check this sweet rp", there were a few of us over the years that played them true. But the lack of lore for them is disheartening. Especially when IMO it's one of the cooler things about elves in general, and there seems to be a lot of racial love being spread. Not complaining. Just stating an opinion.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
FRANKYFIGGS
Re: Elves - no clever pun title because we're better than that.
11/22/2015 10:03 AM CST
bone elfs wore black and grey brindle leathers
shimmering black cloaks with pockets.
and used silver and onyx inlaid crossbows.
when they attacked crossings...a long time ago.
the invasion back then seemed to be influenced by the drow aesthetically.
there were a couple of GMNPCS during sorrow's. Anashia and Amaggio and Sid himself.
the pally shop (i think) sold a bone elf shamans rattle for a while.
I was fairly sure the old alter up in snowbeasts is where Sidhlot had run to.(with Sorrow's books that got retconned into PC Necro guild i'm guessing) couple years after that I gathered some folks to push the rock out of the way, but nothing but the old altar behind it. (wasn't a working altar as I recall)
The GMNPCs werent like savages all dressed in bone. it was more like assassin/goth than tribal/goth.
Descrip of bone elves were that they could look and dress like anybody, anywhere. kinda like the PC necros should be now. I have a hunch that the PC necro guild's development was heavily influenced in part by aspects of the very little lore on Bone Elfs.
I think the chronology was like-
Sorrow Beefs it
half hour later Sidhlot runs to snowbeast cave with the books
Necro guild announced not long after that.
THAYET
Re: Elves - no clever pun title because we're better than that.
11/22/2015 04:01 PM CST
>> the invasion back then seemed to be influenced by the drow aesthetically.
A lot of very old things in-game were ripoffs of D&D and such. I'm glad that they started moving away from that stuff personally. The stuff that was written in the mean time was much more interesting.
>> with Sorrow's books that got retconned into PC Necro guild i'm guessing
The Philosophers of the Knife are a completely unaffiliated cult with their own relatively nascent background and history delving into necromancy. They are a distinct necromantic tradition with no connection to the Bone Elves or Sidhlot beyond the superficial fact of them both being Necromancers.
>> I have a hunch that the PC necro guild's development was heavily influenced in part by aspects of the very little lore on Bone Elfs.
Not so much. If you're interested in source material, the Philosophers are essentially a poor man's treatise on Sartre's existentialism. I have never seen anything in the Necromancer Guild to suggest any kind of connection with Bone Elves, but I have seen the GMs state very clearly several times there is no connection because they are completely different cults with completely different practices and reasons for practicing. There's a reason the body of leadership within the Philosophers is largely Humans.
>> Necro guild announced not long after that.
There was a multi-year gap between these events IIRC. The Necromancer Guild was announced several GM teams ago, and while IIRC the original guild was planned to be a weird glomming-together of Team Evil, nothing of the original conception of the guild survived that gap of time. What exists now was written almost entirely from scratch by Armifer, Zeyurn, and Abasha. And is frankly much better.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
A lot of very old things in-game were ripoffs of D&D and such. I'm glad that they started moving away from that stuff personally. The stuff that was written in the mean time was much more interesting.
>> with Sorrow's books that got retconned into PC Necro guild i'm guessing
The Philosophers of the Knife are a completely unaffiliated cult with their own relatively nascent background and history delving into necromancy. They are a distinct necromantic tradition with no connection to the Bone Elves or Sidhlot beyond the superficial fact of them both being Necromancers.
>> I have a hunch that the PC necro guild's development was heavily influenced in part by aspects of the very little lore on Bone Elfs.
Not so much. If you're interested in source material, the Philosophers are essentially a poor man's treatise on Sartre's existentialism. I have never seen anything in the Necromancer Guild to suggest any kind of connection with Bone Elves, but I have seen the GMs state very clearly several times there is no connection because they are completely different cults with completely different practices and reasons for practicing. There's a reason the body of leadership within the Philosophers is largely Humans.
>> Necro guild announced not long after that.
There was a multi-year gap between these events IIRC. The Necromancer Guild was announced several GM teams ago, and while IIRC the original guild was planned to be a weird glomming-together of Team Evil, nothing of the original conception of the guild survived that gap of time. What exists now was written almost entirely from scratch by Armifer, Zeyurn, and Abasha. And is frankly much better.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Elves - no clever pun title because we're better than that.
11/22/2015 06:19 PM CST
Spoilers:
The Bone Elves are their own thing. Their necromancers do not follow the Philosophy nor were they trained by second-generation Philosophers, thus they have no place in the hierarchy PCs enjoy.
Relatively few things survived the initial proposal of the Necromancer Guild to release. The basic concept of Risen, the basic concept of the Descent to Undeath, and the personage of Zamidren Book. The ideologies, NPCs (except Zamidren) and virtually all specifics were invented when a group of us revisited the then-dead project and spent one year writing and releasing a Necromancer Guild.
The Philosophers were not inspired by Bone Elves, but instead by me sitting around and thinking, "How can I make a sympathetic Necromancer? Like, what would inspire a reasonably sane person to do this?"
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
The Bone Elves are their own thing. Their necromancers do not follow the Philosophy nor were they trained by second-generation Philosophers, thus they have no place in the hierarchy PCs enjoy.
Relatively few things survived the initial proposal of the Necromancer Guild to release. The basic concept of Risen, the basic concept of the Descent to Undeath, and the personage of Zamidren Book. The ideologies, NPCs (except Zamidren) and virtually all specifics were invented when a group of us revisited the then-dead project and spent one year writing and releasing a Necromancer Guild.
The Philosophers were not inspired by Bone Elves, but instead by me sitting around and thinking, "How can I make a sympathetic Necromancer? Like, what would inspire a reasonably sane person to do this?"
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
BADGOPHER
Re: Elves - no clever pun title because we're better than that.
11/22/2015 06:27 PM CST
Can you describe any of the initial proposal documentation, just to see what the first-blush thoughts were?
I envision it as far more cartoonish and dramatically evil than the more insidious guild.
I envision it as far more cartoonish and dramatically evil than the more insidious guild.
SHADOW7988
Re: Elves - no clever pun title because we're better than that.
11/22/2015 07:37 PM CST
While I appreciate the Lore, can the seemingly very Necromantic topics be moved to the Necromancy lore. Separately if anyone wants to drop elven lore here. That would be awesome.
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"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
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Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
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"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
