JOCEF
arm-worn shield/2HE stance
09/04/2013 02:09 PM CDT
I've yet to try this out, but what is recommended stance allotment to best cover one's hide while swinging a 2HE around? I usually work my parry with my standard 100 parry, 83 evasion, but I'm getting beat up a bit.
When I go HE/shield I go with 100 shield, 65 evasion, and 18 parry. Not sure how fruitful this is. It works some parry, but generally very slowly. I haven't died in black leucs, so I just assume it's more or less working "enough." Is there a better stance for this as well?
Much thanks.
Jocevf
ANOUSHKA
Re: arm-worn shield/2HE stance
09/04/2013 05:29 PM CDT
Since my shield is considerably higher than both my parry and my evasion, I use it as my second defense when training either evasion or parry, rather than combining those two. It seems to work well.
2DUMBARSE
Re: arm-worn shield/2HE stance
09/05/2013 09:54 AM CDT
If you're a returning player, setting your stance to 100/80 shield/parry or parry/shield might sound like a death sentence, but it's totally doable now. Any stance works as long as you're not fighting something that uses missile attacks.
Elanthipedia has a wealth of information on the changes to combat as well as every other system. Check it out here: http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Combat_3.0
Elanthipedia has a wealth of information on the changes to combat as well as every other system. Check it out here: http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Combat_3.0
JOCEF
Re: arm-worn shield/2HE stance
09/05/2013 10:46 AM CDT
That's great to know. I've still got that MUST HAVE EVASION ingrained in me...
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: arm-worn shield/2HE stance
09/10/2013 07:57 AM CDT
What was the final word on how bad the shield penalty is w/2handers? Is it overcome by using a large shield?
ASHAMAN1
Re: arm-worn shield/2HE stance
09/10/2013 08:24 AM CDT
Several Paladins I've spoken with say its a notable penalty in PVP, for myself, in PVE, I don't notice any real difference.
Samsaren
Samsaren
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: arm-worn shield/2HE stance
09/10/2013 01:53 PM CDT
Gotcha. I'll continue training HE then. Thanks!
2DUMBARSE
Re: arm-worn shield/2HE stance
09/11/2013 03:45 PM CDT
On a semi-related note, I wish The Powers That Be would reconsider the shield/2HE penalty. It feels like an unnecessary tax in this new and improved iteration of DR. The difference in damage between 2HE and HE is not that significant, and both weapon types already have solid niches/benefits/opportunity costs without mixing in penalties.
2HE does more damage than HE at the same RT but forces combatants to arm-wear shields, reducing its protective qualities by 25%. It also has less template variety with good reason. HE, on the other hand, does somewhat less damage than 2HE but gives combatants the option of full use of a shield (and shield slam without a remove/wear shield script or macro). HE users also have more varied template options (e.g. puncture-heavy HE and throwables).
Realistically, the penalty is probably only a couple of percentage points, which is not that noticeable unless you’re at the very edge of your skill. That said, PvP still largely involves retreat spam and, to a lesser degree, stealth so you need to make that melee hit as accurate as possible. I just don’t think the advantages of 2HE warrant the penalty. Given the option to switch primary weapon from 2HE to HE, I’d do it in a heart beat.
2HE does more damage than HE at the same RT but forces combatants to arm-wear shields, reducing its protective qualities by 25%. It also has less template variety with good reason. HE, on the other hand, does somewhat less damage than 2HE but gives combatants the option of full use of a shield (and shield slam without a remove/wear shield script or macro). HE users also have more varied template options (e.g. puncture-heavy HE and throwables).
Realistically, the penalty is probably only a couple of percentage points, which is not that noticeable unless you’re at the very edge of your skill. That said, PvP still largely involves retreat spam and, to a lesser degree, stealth so you need to make that melee hit as accurate as possible. I just don’t think the advantages of 2HE warrant the penalty. Given the option to switch primary weapon from 2HE to HE, I’d do it in a heart beat.
LENNONJON
Re: arm-worn shield/2HE stance
09/12/2013 03:28 PM CDT
I have LE (primary) and 2HE (secondary) within 6-ranks of each other, and definitely notice that I kill faster with 2HE.
Given that, here's what I would love to see happen. Since I am newly back to this let me know if people have proposed it before.
1) I can understand some penalty to being able to block with a shield when using 2HE's. However, as the "masters of armor" (are we even considered that any more?) why does it have to be so high? Perhaps make it decrease with more 2HE + Shield skill (sort of like hinderance).
2) Allow Paladins to shield bash with arm-worn shields if using 1-handed weapons, but not 2-handed weapons. Again, I cannot understand why we can't shield bash with arm-worn shields when a weapon is in the other hand. I can sort of see it when you are using a 2-handed weapon though. This would open-up a difference between using LE and 2HE, which the GM's seem to so desperately want.
Just a couple of quick thoughts from the peanut gallery.
--Just a Squire
Given that, here's what I would love to see happen. Since I am newly back to this let me know if people have proposed it before.
1) I can understand some penalty to being able to block with a shield when using 2HE's. However, as the "masters of armor" (are we even considered that any more?) why does it have to be so high? Perhaps make it decrease with more 2HE + Shield skill (sort of like hinderance).
2) Allow Paladins to shield bash with arm-worn shields if using 1-handed weapons, but not 2-handed weapons. Again, I cannot understand why we can't shield bash with arm-worn shields when a weapon is in the other hand. I can sort of see it when you are using a 2-handed weapon though. This would open-up a difference between using LE and 2HE, which the GM's seem to so desperately want.
Just a couple of quick thoughts from the peanut gallery.
--Just a Squire
SHADOW7988
Re: arm-worn shield/2HE stance
09/12/2013 06:24 PM CDT
I'm for paladins having more 'mastery' of armor/shields due to them being armor primary of course.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
2DUMBARSE
Re: arm-worn shield/2HE stance
09/12/2013 08:48 PM CDT
My HE is within 10% of my 2HE. If I walk up to something that appraises relatively easy without buffs and start slicing with the following bastie in 2HE mode, then swap it to HE after several kills and start slicing away on fresh creatures, there is some perceivable damage decrease as one would expect. The difference, however, is maybe 1 level of damage on average but RNG makes it hard to tell without a large sample.
A kertig bastard sword is a heavy edged melee-ranged weapon.
A kertig bastard sword trains the large edged skill.
You are certain that it could do:
low (3/26) puncture damage
severe (13/26) slice damage
somewhat heavy (8/26) impact damage
no fire damage
no cold damage
no electric damage
The bastard sword is inadequately designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the sword is inadequately (4/14) balanced and is soundly (8/14) suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.
A kertig bastard sword is a two-handed edged melee-ranged weapon.
A kertig bastard sword trains the two-handed edged skill.
You are certain that it could do:
low (3/26) puncture damage
very extreme (16/26) slice damage
heavy (9/26) impact damage
no fire damage
no cold damage
no electric damage
The bastard sword is fairly designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the sword is fairly (5/14) balanced and is soundly (8/14) suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.
You are certain that the bastard sword is unusually resilient to damage (16/18), and is in pristine condition (98-100%).
I think a difference of 4 points of damage spread across slice, puncture and impact is significant, but one might say, “yeah, but you can get much heavier and more damaging 2HE weapons with 31+ points of damage.” I agree, and I’ve wielded some of those huge 100-something+ igorat axes. At the time, with 80 and 120 buffed str and stamina, respectively, all I remember is the fatigue and how much I hated missing one of those taxing hits, which seems like a significant enough drawback without the skill penalty. Give me a sterak axe any day.
I haven’t used small edged much at all since 3.0 rolled out but I’ve faced a few small edge wielding players. It has a pretty cool niche that isn’t incredibly obvious. Small edges do significantly less damage than the big weapons, especially to heavily armored opponents. Their strength lies in defense. They attack so fast that it’s virtually impossible to maintain balance and position on someone wielding one. That gives them a pretty big defensive advantage in addition to the accuracy advantage.
I think the combat GMs did an excellent job balancing the weapon types. I no longer find myself wondering why anyone would use anything but x weapon.
A kertig bastard sword is a heavy edged melee-ranged weapon.
A kertig bastard sword trains the large edged skill.
You are certain that it could do:
low (3/26) puncture damage
severe (13/26) slice damage
somewhat heavy (8/26) impact damage
no fire damage
no cold damage
no electric damage
The bastard sword is inadequately designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the sword is inadequately (4/14) balanced and is soundly (8/14) suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.
A kertig bastard sword is a two-handed edged melee-ranged weapon.
A kertig bastard sword trains the two-handed edged skill.
You are certain that it could do:
low (3/26) puncture damage
very extreme (16/26) slice damage
heavy (9/26) impact damage
no fire damage
no cold damage
no electric damage
The bastard sword is fairly designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the sword is fairly (5/14) balanced and is soundly (8/14) suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.
You are certain that the bastard sword is unusually resilient to damage (16/18), and is in pristine condition (98-100%).
I think a difference of 4 points of damage spread across slice, puncture and impact is significant, but one might say, “yeah, but you can get much heavier and more damaging 2HE weapons with 31+ points of damage.” I agree, and I’ve wielded some of those huge 100-something+ igorat axes. At the time, with 80 and 120 buffed str and stamina, respectively, all I remember is the fatigue and how much I hated missing one of those taxing hits, which seems like a significant enough drawback without the skill penalty. Give me a sterak axe any day.
I haven’t used small edged much at all since 3.0 rolled out but I’ve faced a few small edge wielding players. It has a pretty cool niche that isn’t incredibly obvious. Small edges do significantly less damage than the big weapons, especially to heavily armored opponents. Their strength lies in defense. They attack so fast that it’s virtually impossible to maintain balance and position on someone wielding one. That gives them a pretty big defensive advantage in addition to the accuracy advantage.
I think the combat GMs did an excellent job balancing the weapon types. I no longer find myself wondering why anyone would use anything but x weapon.
ASHAMAN1
Re: arm-worn shield/2HE stance
09/13/2013 06:30 AM CDT
I easily use a hundred stone greatsword with a lot less then 120 stamina, without any issue. That out of the way - I have SE, SB, LT, HT, and 2HE all within a handful of ranks, with a rare metal HT - guess which kills far and away the fastest...2HE. With an arm worn shield I might add. The difference is staggering, and to make it worse, 2HE is bottom of the heap ranks wise.
If anything, I don't think the penalty is high enough. Not counting someone using a weaker weapon (the bastard sword example), but when using a real powerhouse 2HE the damage is almost silly. That said - I MUCH prefer the penalty being in OF/DMG rather then adding RTs like with bows. Feels more like a reasonable option rather then directly punching my EXP gain in its happy place.
Samsaren
If anything, I don't think the penalty is high enough. Not counting someone using a weaker weapon (the bastard sword example), but when using a real powerhouse 2HE the damage is almost silly. That said - I MUCH prefer the penalty being in OF/DMG rather then adding RTs like with bows. Feels more like a reasonable option rather then directly punching my EXP gain in its happy place.
Samsaren
2DUMBARSE
Re: arm-worn shield/2HE stance
09/13/2013 01:43 PM CDT
I’m glad you mentioned greatswords. I think weapons that hit pole range should definitely have an arm-shield penalty. Now…
I never said the heaviest 2HEs don’t kill faster or don’t do more damage, which would be a silly thing for me to say. In fact, I’ve played around with a 109 stone greatsword with around 36 points of slice/impact/puncture damage IIRC. I can tell you that using only slice attacks and no RW, the greatsword did, on average, about 2 levels more damage to an easy target (roughly 10 versus 8 using Genie subs) and killed very easy targets in about 2-3 fewer hits. In other words, it did a lot more damage than my bastie in HE or 2HE mode. However, and correct me if I’m wrong, that damage increase in the weapon should be balanced by weapon balance and fatigue.
The reason I used that bastie was because it was a good example of the difference in weapon stats at the same weight. Those huge weapons should hit less often "at level" than lighter, more balanced weapons even without any arm-shield penalty. If it’s not entirely that way now, it probably has more to do with OF buffs and the bonus for high agility and balanced weapons. Both are being tweaked for a reason.
And trying to make a low balance weapon hit more accurately with an attack like draw should fatigue the wielder even if (s)he has lots of strength and stamina. Since 3.0 was released, I've played different characters through nearly every circle up to ~150. I can confidently say fatigue can be an issue at every range in strength and stamina.
Frankly, if our goal is raw damage and killing power, screw all the weapons you mentioned, which have relatively balanced opportunity costs. Grab a throwing axe and hurling axe. Jab a couple of times for balance and go to town. You’ll kill way faster than you would using those 100+ stone 2-handers, train up the HE/SE skill for balance, have full use of a shield and never have to worry about fatigue or penalties to your skill caused by shields. I digress…
I never said the heaviest 2HEs don’t kill faster or don’t do more damage, which would be a silly thing for me to say. In fact, I’ve played around with a 109 stone greatsword with around 36 points of slice/impact/puncture damage IIRC. I can tell you that using only slice attacks and no RW, the greatsword did, on average, about 2 levels more damage to an easy target (roughly 10 versus 8 using Genie subs) and killed very easy targets in about 2-3 fewer hits. In other words, it did a lot more damage than my bastie in HE or 2HE mode. However, and correct me if I’m wrong, that damage increase in the weapon should be balanced by weapon balance and fatigue.
The reason I used that bastie was because it was a good example of the difference in weapon stats at the same weight. Those huge weapons should hit less often "at level" than lighter, more balanced weapons even without any arm-shield penalty. If it’s not entirely that way now, it probably has more to do with OF buffs and the bonus for high agility and balanced weapons. Both are being tweaked for a reason.
And trying to make a low balance weapon hit more accurately with an attack like draw should fatigue the wielder even if (s)he has lots of strength and stamina. Since 3.0 was released, I've played different characters through nearly every circle up to ~150. I can confidently say fatigue can be an issue at every range in strength and stamina.
Frankly, if our goal is raw damage and killing power, screw all the weapons you mentioned, which have relatively balanced opportunity costs. Grab a throwing axe and hurling axe. Jab a couple of times for balance and go to town. You’ll kill way faster than you would using those 100+ stone 2-handers, train up the HE/SE skill for balance, have full use of a shield and never have to worry about fatigue or penalties to your skill caused by shields. I digress…
GORTEOUS
Re: arm-worn shield/2HE stance
09/13/2013 07:48 PM CDT
Just gonna chime in here and say that in my opinion, HE is currently the worst of the edged weapons. It doesn't reap the speed benefits of SE(which, in my opinion is #1 overall) or hit the damage potential of 2HE, not to mention that it can't be used at pole - so assuming he has no ranged weapon available, he could do effectively nothing against Clerics, Moonies in most cases, and Bards in some. Also, fatigue is always a problem - with 120 STR/STA, can wear myself out spamming DRAW with a 22 stone katar very quickly.
>> Frankly, if our goal is raw damage and killing power, screw all the weapons you mentioned, which have relatively balanced opportunity costs. Grab a throwing axe and hurling axe. Jab a couple of times for balance and go to town. You’ll kill way faster than you would using those 100+ stone 2-handers, train up the HE/SE skill for balance, have full use of a shield and never have to worry about fatigue or penalties to your skill caused by shields. I digress…
Brawling seems to be the most effective way to build balance quickly, GOUGE is amazing. And IMO, if we're talking straight DPS - Bow still beats out Thrown weapons somewhat for other guilds, and by a mile for Barbs/Rangers.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
>> Frankly, if our goal is raw damage and killing power, screw all the weapons you mentioned, which have relatively balanced opportunity costs. Grab a throwing axe and hurling axe. Jab a couple of times for balance and go to town. You’ll kill way faster than you would using those 100+ stone 2-handers, train up the HE/SE skill for balance, have full use of a shield and never have to worry about fatigue or penalties to your skill caused by shields. I digress…
Brawling seems to be the most effective way to build balance quickly, GOUGE is amazing. And IMO, if we're talking straight DPS - Bow still beats out Thrown weapons somewhat for other guilds, and by a mile for Barbs/Rangers.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
2DUMBARSE
Re: arm-worn shield/2HE stance
09/17/2013 01:46 PM CDT
I really don't like the jab RT on HE in 3.0. It's a 100% increase in RT, compared with 33% and 25% for draw and slice, respectively, on an attack that's main purpose is building balance; it doesn't do any real damage.
I haven't toyed with SE since it was LE and ME. How does it compare on heavily armored targets? I assumed HE was justified against heavy armor but I'll admit that's pure conjecture.
>DPS - Bow still beats out Thrown weapons somewhat for other guilds, and by a mile for Barbs/Rangers.
I didn't know stick bows were so good without dual load, which is amazing.
By the way, Jocevf, I'm finding that some returning players haven't discovered (Attack) HELP FULL. In case you don't know about it, it's an incredibly useful tool in learning what all attack types do in 3.0.
I haven't toyed with SE since it was LE and ME. How does it compare on heavily armored targets? I assumed HE was justified against heavy armor but I'll admit that's pure conjecture.
>DPS - Bow still beats out Thrown weapons somewhat for other guilds, and by a mile for Barbs/Rangers.
I didn't know stick bows were so good without dual load, which is amazing.
By the way, Jocevf, I'm finding that some returning players haven't discovered (Attack) HELP FULL. In case you don't know about it, it's an incredibly useful tool in learning what all attack types do in 3.0.
