Use your anti-stealth abilities:
-Glyph of Light (big perception boost)
-Sixth Sense (make sure you have a pristine soul for maximum effect)
-Clarity (helps with Sixth Sense)
-Divine Guidance (boosts intelligence, which along with wisdom is one of the two stats that factor into perception)
-WATCH <thief>
-If this is a challenge fight, have them challenge and then immediately face them after you've accepted.
-Cast SMH if you have it (AoE spells affect hidden opponents engaging you)
-Juggle/Hunt like a madman. Try to keep perception at least 4-5 ranks/circle.
Don't get into a fight until the conditions are in your favor (i.e. you've done the above). Backstab is ridiculously OP right now, but those should help.
~Thilan
TELGER
NEELD
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/15/2009 09:24 AM CDT
<<It seems like much younger theives can always beat me in combat by hiding and backstabbing.
Unless you can see them (i.e. your "fourth defense" perception) or dodge the attack, you will get smoked. Thilan just gave you probably the best summary of your options, I will only add that I carry around green powders in these instances and have a little macro to use them.
Juggle and "hunt". As it stands, hiding is the best offense and defense in the game. We train perception at a tert rate, so you have to always be training perception.
Madigan
Free the Paladin Guild in 2009.
Unless you can see them (i.e. your "fourth defense" perception) or dodge the attack, you will get smoked. Thilan just gave you probably the best summary of your options, I will only add that I carry around green powders in these instances and have a little macro to use them.
Juggle and "hunt". As it stands, hiding is the best offense and defense in the game. We train perception at a tert rate, so you have to always be training perception.
Madigan
Free the Paladin Guild in 2009.
TAGHZ
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/15/2009 09:59 AM CDT
Backstab is up for a rewrite nerf...Soon.
Crusader Taghz
DFA = DISC + AGIL + TM > Evasion + Reflex
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother...", William Shakespeare.
Crusader Taghz
DFA = DISC + AGIL + TM > Evasion + Reflex
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother...", William Shakespeare.
GRIM45
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/15/2009 10:16 AM CDT
>>Juggle and "hunt". As it stands, hiding is the best offense and defense in the game. We train perception at a tert rate, so you have to always be training perception.
>>Backstab is up for a rewrite nerf...Soon.
Also of note, Stealth itself is being rewritten (albeit piecemeal), along with backstab as indicated, such that it will not be the "IWIN" in both defence/offence . Given the pace at Z codes, I imagine much sooner than 'simu-soon'.
>>I will only add that I carry around green powders in these instances and have a little macro to use them
What's the going rate on these btw? Purple and Green (although I imagine purple ones just took a HUGE hit to value)
-TG, TG, & GL, et al.
>>Backstab is up for a rewrite nerf...Soon.
Also of note, Stealth itself is being rewritten (albeit piecemeal), along with backstab as indicated, such that it will not be the "IWIN" in both defence/offence . Given the pace at Z codes, I imagine much sooner than 'simu-soon'.
>>I will only add that I carry around green powders in these instances and have a little macro to use them
What's the going rate on these btw? Purple and Green (although I imagine purple ones just took a HUGE hit to value)
-TG, TG, & GL, et al.
NEELD
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/15/2009 10:44 AM CDT
Not really sure on the cost. I pay 10 plat per "sack" of powders from the person that supplies me. I am sure that supply will dry up once this fellow leaves thugs. A sack typically has 5 of each, so I am paying a plat each.
More than anything, I pay for the convenience of always getting a supply...so I am probably overpaying.
Madigan
Free the Paladin Guild in 2009.
More than anything, I pay for the convenience of always getting a supply...so I am probably overpaying.
Madigan
Free the Paladin Guild in 2009.
KARKWUSS
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/15/2009 01:01 PM CDT
Know your opponent is the best way to fight thieves, other then What Madigan listed as your "preparations."
I love sparring Thieves because they often are uneducated on what Paladins can do.
Though its harder to use em now... use an avaes runestone as well as GoL... and invest in a few high end perception CJs... It amazing how much a paladin can boost his/her perception when you do what you can to aid it... in the proper order so they dont cancel themselves out by hitting caps...
just as important as perception though is surviving the strike... with stamina and anti stun and/or protect self you can often survive the first strike and then smash that skinny little backstabber with your large hulking weapon, which is always so gratifying...
I love sparring Thieves because they often are uneducated on what Paladins can do.
Though its harder to use em now... use an avaes runestone as well as GoL... and invest in a few high end perception CJs... It amazing how much a paladin can boost his/her perception when you do what you can to aid it... in the proper order so they dont cancel themselves out by hitting caps...
just as important as perception though is surviving the strike... with stamina and anti stun and/or protect self you can often survive the first strike and then smash that skinny little backstabber with your large hulking weapon, which is always so gratifying...
CHRISTIANSONK3
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/15/2009 01:55 PM CDT
Thilan had a good list but I think it needs some clarification regarding sixth sense.
>>-Sixth Sense (make sure you have a pristine soul for maximum effect)
This wont actually help you win any contests or allow you to point incoming thief
>>-Clarity (helps with Sixth Sense)
Doesn't change the above statement, also I'm fairly certain it doesn't boosts your perception(or any other skill/stat for that matter) in any appreciable way.
And for dealing with backstab specifically, go into the fight with all of your defensive buffs up(DA/HoW/SR,AS, plus MaF if you can), have Halt, SF, SMH, or TiP(if you are feeling creative) prepped, cast immediately after you get backstabbed the first time, and then win.
>>By the time I work up and spell, or am even able to see these guys, they have already stabbed me in the back, and hid again.
You have at least 1 second to do whatever you are going to do (assuming you survive the BS), so make it count, spam whatever spell/attack you are planning on using before the BS comes, and hope it does the trick.
-Landros
>>-Sixth Sense (make sure you have a pristine soul for maximum effect)
This wont actually help you win any contests or allow you to point incoming thief
>>-Clarity (helps with Sixth Sense)
Doesn't change the above statement, also I'm fairly certain it doesn't boosts your perception(or any other skill/stat for that matter) in any appreciable way.
And for dealing with backstab specifically, go into the fight with all of your defensive buffs up(DA/HoW/SR,AS, plus MaF if you can), have Halt, SF, SMH, or TiP(if you are feeling creative) prepped, cast immediately after you get backstabbed the first time, and then win.
>>By the time I work up and spell, or am even able to see these guys, they have already stabbed me in the back, and hid again.
You have at least 1 second to do whatever you are going to do (assuming you survive the BS), so make it count, spam whatever spell/attack you are planning on using before the BS comes, and hope it does the trick.
-Landros
TELGER
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/15/2009 03:57 PM CDT
>>This wont actually help you win any contests or allow you to point incoming thief
It allows you to know actions have been taken against you and prepare accordingly.
>>Doesn't change the above statement, also I'm fairly certain it doesn't boosts your perception(or any other skill/stat for that matter) in any appreciable way.
"As well, the messaging has been expanded, and a higher tier of messaging is possible without Clarity than it was before."
"Lastly, with phenomenal levels of success, the Paladin will gain the point effect on the actor without having to search, if they would not already have gotten it."
~Thilan
It allows you to know actions have been taken against you and prepare accordingly.
>>Doesn't change the above statement, also I'm fairly certain it doesn't boosts your perception(or any other skill/stat for that matter) in any appreciable way.
"As well, the messaging has been expanded, and a higher tier of messaging is possible without Clarity than it was before."
"Lastly, with phenomenal levels of success, the Paladin will gain the point effect on the actor without having to search, if they would not already have gotten it."
~Thilan
SLOANJ11
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/15/2009 06:14 PM CDT
If you do manage to get your perception up high enough to autopoint them everytime (from watch, GoL, cv, etc.), many thieves will switch to using a bow. Don't forget that you can >trace ward (target)< whenever you see them aiming. This can make the difference between being demolished and taking glancing hits against a bow user. (Off-topic: Same applies to mages targeting, but war mages have that hax where you don't see them target, so i just spam GoW constantly anytime I see a war mage prepping a spell.) Anyway, stamina and strength aren't exactly the strong points of most thieves, so if I can get one off, I can generally drop a thief (at level) in one or at most two smite foes.
CHRISTIANSONK3
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/15/2009 06:50 PM CDT
>>"Lastly, with phenomenal levels of success, the Paladin will gain the point effect on the actor without having to search, if they would not already have gotten it."
Where you getting that from?
-Landros
Where you getting that from?
-Landros
JAMESMICAH99
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/15/2009 07:11 PM CDT
Oh ok great, So all I have to do is cast every defensive spell AND GLYPH I know before the fight, then cast SF and start to advance him during the 1/2 second that they are unhidden... if I survive their initial backstab. Sounds fair. Sorry for the sarcasm just a little depressing.
It's nearly impossible to enforce justice and righteousness without the ability to ever win actual fight. It's almost a joke.
I do have some actual questions though... there was some language there that I didn't understand... please translate:
Green powders? Never heard of them...?
Backstab is ridiculously OP right now, but those should help. What's OP?
It's nearly impossible to enforce justice and righteousness without the ability to ever win actual fight. It's almost a joke.
I do have some actual questions though... there was some language there that I didn't understand... please translate:
Green powders? Never heard of them...?
Backstab is ridiculously OP right now, but those should help. What's OP?
CHRISTIANSONK3
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/15/2009 07:16 PM CDT
>>Sorry for the sarcasm just a little depressing.
Well you have to assume that the person trying to kill you is going to use every tool at their disposal as well, so that just levels the playing field, I don't see it as unreasonable.
>>It's almost a joke.
Actually you haven't even figured out the funny part yet.
>>Green powders?
I believe the thugs in Throne City drop them, and get distributed to the masses via people who hunt them and sell them off.
-Landros
Well you have to assume that the person trying to kill you is going to use every tool at their disposal as well, so that just levels the playing field, I don't see it as unreasonable.
>>It's almost a joke.
Actually you haven't even figured out the funny part yet.
>>Green powders?
I believe the thugs in Throne City drop them, and get distributed to the masses via people who hunt them and sell them off.
-Landros
DWARB-POWER
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/15/2009 07:17 PM CDT
<<Green powders? Never heard of them...?>>
Green powders for removing people out of hiding. From Thugs (a creature that puts away their weapons and momentarily takes out these powders) in Throne City. They have a chance to dissipate when you grab them at any point.
They also have violet powders for removing people out of invisibility. Same situation as above in terms of restrictions.
<<What's OP?>>
In this context, OP is overpowered. OP also means original post depending the context it's used.
<<It's nearly impossible to enforce justice and righteousness without the ability to ever win actual fight. It's almost a joke.>>
This = QQ
BTW, QQ is you crying.
BTW = By the way.
- Simon <--- this is the poster responding to you.
Green powders for removing people out of hiding. From Thugs (a creature that puts away their weapons and momentarily takes out these powders) in Throne City. They have a chance to dissipate when you grab them at any point.
They also have violet powders for removing people out of invisibility. Same situation as above in terms of restrictions.
<<What's OP?>>
In this context, OP is overpowered. OP also means original post depending the context it's used.
<<It's nearly impossible to enforce justice and righteousness without the ability to ever win actual fight. It's almost a joke.>>
This = QQ
BTW, QQ is you crying.
BTW = By the way.
- Simon <--- this is the poster responding to you.
SLOANJ11
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/15/2009 08:58 PM CDT
>>Oh ok great, So all I have to do is cast every defensive spell AND GLYPH I know before the fight, then cast SF and start to advance him during the 1/2 second that they are unhidden... if I survive their initial backstab. Sounds fair. Sorry for the sarcasm just a little depressing.
>>It's nearly impossible to enforce justice and righteousness without the ability to ever win actual fight. It's almost a joke.
Train perception. If you aren't in combat, juggle. If you are in combat, hunt every 90 seconds or so. If I know combat is coming, I throw up GoL. If I know the name of the enemy, I watch. That's usually enough to see anyone at level, even if they are using stealth boosters. But my perception is almost as high as my shield, which is my primary armor. If it's not enough, then they are eaither way over-level in stealths, or using a cj or something. After my perception boosters, I prep sf, and if I see them advancing, don't waste time pointing but immediately cast or throw my heavy thrown.
The ability to win fights isn't what keeps us from enforcing justice. Soul restrictions are the big problems.
>>It's nearly impossible to enforce justice and righteousness without the ability to ever win actual fight. It's almost a joke.
Train perception. If you aren't in combat, juggle. If you are in combat, hunt every 90 seconds or so. If I know combat is coming, I throw up GoL. If I know the name of the enemy, I watch. That's usually enough to see anyone at level, even if they are using stealth boosters. But my perception is almost as high as my shield, which is my primary armor. If it's not enough, then they are eaither way over-level in stealths, or using a cj or something. After my perception boosters, I prep sf, and if I see them advancing, don't waste time pointing but immediately cast or throw my heavy thrown.
The ability to win fights isn't what keeps us from enforcing justice. Soul restrictions are the big problems.
ANATTAJY
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/15/2009 09:20 PM CDT
I'm not intending to stir anything up... But when I came back to DR - and the boards - I read every GM post since ~2004, and I don't recall seeing anything that resembled 'backstab is going to get nerfed.'
I could have missed it, or perhaps it's selective memory at work, but what I remember was much more vague than that:
Backstab, along with core stealth, will be getting looked at closely, and don't be surprised if there is an eventual nerf to backstab.
Am I wrong? I've noticed a few scattered player posts that seem to indicate it's most definitely going to happen. Is that notion based on the above, or am I missing something?
......
SEND[Zeyurn] Stop doing that.
I could have missed it, or perhaps it's selective memory at work, but what I remember was much more vague than that:
Backstab, along with core stealth, will be getting looked at closely, and don't be surprised if there is an eventual nerf to backstab.
Am I wrong? I've noticed a few scattered player posts that seem to indicate it's most definitely going to happen. Is that notion based on the above, or am I missing something?
......
SEND[Zeyurn] Stop doing that.
BONECHEWER
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/15/2009 09:32 PM CDT
It was stated on various thief forums that if backstabs were to get any kind of work done, it would be a massive nerf for exceeding global caps. These were inresponse to backstab related suggestions, and no i don't believe there's any concrete plans for nerfing backstab yet. Before backstab gets nerfed I'm sure Z will want to come up a way to keep it just as desirable.
"When I grow up, I want to be a soulless monster trapped in a suit of enchanted armor and compelled into violent service for a commercial institution through torturous psychic conditioning." -- Armifer
"When I grow up, I want to be a soulless monster trapped in a suit of enchanted armor and compelled into violent service for a commercial institution through torturous psychic conditioning." -- Armifer
LOFTONM1
Re: Paladins vs Thieves
04/26/2009 02:57 PM CDT
In the context of that discussion, the nerf would not be enough to push Backstabbing down to 2nd place so you'd still get owned pretty handily if you can't neutralize it.
DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.
DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.
