Previous
Primarily because it does next to no damage.
Secondarily because it doesnt seem to knock down well or reliably I think after a given level. I needed 45 mana casts to knock down elder gryphons and that only seems to work about a quarter of the time but I need more testing.
If I wanted damage, I can cast FST. If I want to inhibit them, Stun is far easier. This spell seems to in its current form just do the before mentioned mana efficient spells jobs in a very inefficient manner. I admit I need more testing, preferably against other players to track vitality losses better, but counting spells and total time is giving me a general idea of the spell.
Here is how another guilds advanced multi hit TM spell functions vs melee on three targets. Targets are 'at level' for this player although nortiously a little easy to kill, so I'll do the test on warcats.
You gesture at an elder red brocket deer.
Your cambrinth armband emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
Your dark mantle of aether flutters angrily as if caught in a sudden wind.
The brocket deer bleats in anger as you cast at it!
A large ball of flame flies at an elder red brocket deer!
The brocket deer bleats in anger as you cast at it!
An elder red brocket deer's skin broils as the intense heat of the fireball washes over her!
The brocket deer is stunned!
The brocket deer bleats in anger as you cast at it!
The fireball contracts and gains speed as it nears an elder red brocket deer!
The fireball explodes a few feet away from it, scorching its abdomen.
The brocket deer bleats in anger as you cast at it!
A volley of fiery shards explode outward toward an elder red brocket deer!
The fire shard glances off its back, singeing it a little.
The fire shard smacks into it, leaving a circular burn on its back.
The brocket deer is lightly stunned!
The fire shard singes its neck.
The shard hits an elder red brocket deer squarely in the abdomen, sending it reeling and scorching the skin.
The brocket deer bleats in anger as you cast at it!
A volley of fiery shards explode outward toward an elder red brocket deer!
Its nose is singed a bit by the fire shard.
The fire shard glances off its left leg, singeing it a little.
The fire shard glances off its chest, singeing it a little.
The fire shard explodes just short of its left eye.
The brocket deer is lightly stunned!
The fire shard connects with its left leg, branding the flesh with its circular mark.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
R>
That was cast one at 30 mana
Cast two kills everything at melee
You gesture at an elder red brocket deer.
Your cambrinth armband emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
Your dark mantle of aether flutters angrily as if caught in a sudden wind.
The brocket deer bleats in anger as you cast at it!
A large ball of flame flies at an elder red brocket deer!
The brocket deer bleats in anger as you cast at it!
An elder red brocket deer's skin blisters as the intense heat of the fireball washes over her!
The brocket deer falls to the ground, letting out an angry bleating sound while kicking at empty air with its hooves. Raising its head one last time as if in defiance, the deer softly exhales its final breath.
The brocket deer bleats in anger as you cast at it!
The fireball contracts and gains speed as it nears an elder red brocket deer!
The fireball slams into it, nearly knocking it over and burning away most of the flesh of its chest.
The brocket deer is severely stunned!
The brocket deer bleats in anger as you cast at it!
A volley of fiery shards explode outward toward an elder red brocket deer!
The shard strikes its abdomen like a flaming hammer, smashing bone and incinerating flesh.
The brocket deer is severely stunned!
The fire shard smacks into it, leaving a circular burn on its chest.
The shard hits an elder red brocket deer in the left leg, scorching the skin.
The brocket deer falls to the ground, letting out an angry bleating sound while kicking at empty air with its hooves. Raising its head one last time as if in defiance, the deer softly exhales its final breath.
The brocket deer bleats in anger as you cast at it!
A volley of fiery shards explode outward toward an elder red brocket deer!
The fire shard smacks into it, leaving a circular burn on its abdomen.
The brocket deer is lightly stunned!
The fire shard slams into an elder red brocket deer, its flames badly blistering the flesh of its left leg.
The shard hits an elder red brocket deer squarely in the chest, sending it reeling and scorching the skin.
The shard hits an elder red brocket deer squarely in the back, sending it reeling and scorching the skin.
The shard blasts into its chest and out the other side, leaving a wide smoking hole where vital organs once were.
The brocket deer falls to the ground, letting out an angry bleating sound while kicking at empty air with its hooves. Raising its head one last time as if in defiance, the deer softly exhales its final breath.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
I'm not saying I want 'that', but FB feels to being WAY more damage, reliably multi hits the same target and can hit multiple targets.
I'm really curious if the knock down effect (which I can barely trigger aparently despite hitting targets easily with my TM) was somehow worth that much loss is power.
REWYN
DR-RAESH
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 12:50 AM CST
Fireball is a very bad spell to compare this to.
TKT or Stone Strike are much more comparable spells (Multishot physical damage).
I'll add specific messaging to indicate when a target is resisting the knock down.
Also I think some of the variance you're seeing in the number of shots is that the spell doesn't message when it misses or has no effect (Absorbed by armor, entirely deflected by the shield etc) since conceptually the spell is a wall of force instead of multiple shots. This has led to a giant messaging nightmare that took several attempts to resolve and delayed the spell at least a month, so I'm kinda determined to make it work some way somehow.
Soul state just changes the appearance and has no other effect (like Footman's Strike) with one tiny exception.
As an aside, has anyone managed to knock something to it's knees and not entirely flat? I have a inkling suspicion one of my last changes to the spell might have broken that.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
TKT or Stone Strike are much more comparable spells (Multishot physical damage).
I'll add specific messaging to indicate when a target is resisting the knock down.
Also I think some of the variance you're seeing in the number of shots is that the spell doesn't message when it misses or has no effect (Absorbed by armor, entirely deflected by the shield etc) since conceptually the spell is a wall of force instead of multiple shots. This has led to a giant messaging nightmare that took several attempts to resolve and delayed the spell at least a month, so I'm kinda determined to make it work some way somehow.
Soul state just changes the appearance and has no other effect (like Footman's Strike) with one tiny exception.
As an aside, has anyone managed to knock something to it's knees and not entirely flat? I have a inkling suspicion one of my last changes to the spell might have broken that.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
CARDINALE01
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 12:55 AM CST
>>As an aside, has anyone managed to knock something to it's knees and not entirely flat? I have a inkling suspicion one of my last changes to the spell might have broken that.
I knocked a Quartz Gargoyle to his knees probably around 1-2PM PST this afternoon while playing with it. I only noticed it once and I couldn't tell you exactly when it was, but it was somewhere in that time frame since it was right before I did that 20 cast test that I posted at 3PM.
My Paladin is logged in Fang Cove so I could go knock around some more Gargoyles, but I only saw it once in 40-50 min prep casts earlier so there's no telling if I'd even do it again if it wasn't broke.
I knocked a Quartz Gargoyle to his knees probably around 1-2PM PST this afternoon while playing with it. I only noticed it once and I couldn't tell you exactly when it was, but it was somewhere in that time frame since it was right before I did that 20 cast test that I posted at 3PM.
My Paladin is logged in Fang Cove so I could go knock around some more Gargoyles, but I only saw it once in 40-50 min prep casts earlier so there's no telling if I'd even do it again if it wasn't broke.
CARDINALE01
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 12:59 AM CST
I don't have a timestamp(because that would be too helpful) but I did find it in my log from today. It happened sometime between 12:30-1PM and 2-2:30PM. Not sure when you last tinkered with it and think you broke it.
You sweep your pavise shield towards a quartz gargoyle.
A dull golden glow emits from the shield which crashes into the quartz gargoyle.
The force inflicts a solid hit to the right leg.
The staggering force drives it to its knees!
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You sweep your pavise shield towards a quartz gargoyle.
A dull golden glow emits from the shield which crashes into the quartz gargoyle.
The force inflicts a solid hit to the right leg.
The staggering force drives it to its knees!
Roundtime: 1 sec.
REWYN
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 01:08 AM CST
>>Fireball is a very bad spell to compare this to.
It(Fireball) feels like a superior spell. Its the same slot cost and difficulty thus my comparison. It hits multiple opponents, multiple times and results in lovely stuns.
I cant make Chastise do any meaningful amount of damage, pumping tons of mana against creatures I easily hit with my TM. I can kill a warklin in 5 casts of FST or STRA with about 20 mana in each, but after 8 casts of Chastise at 57 mana, my target is still kicking. Seeing 57 mana results in 4 glancing blows is really disheartening.
However I wanted to compare spells, sadly I cant cast them on the same creature really but here is FST at 30 mana vs something 'at level'
Cast one
You gesture at an elder red brocket deer.
Your cambrinth armband emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
The brocket deer bleats in anger as you cast at it!
A stone slab rips itself free of the earth, shatters into numerous jagged shards and hurtles toward an elder red brocket deer!
The first shard impacts causing a good strike to an elder red brocket deer's back.
The second shard impacts causing a good strike to an elder red brocket deer's chest.
The third shard impacts causing a good strike to an elder red brocket deer's left leg.
The final shard impacts causing a good strike to an elder red brocket deer's back.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
Cast two
You gesture at an elder red brocket deer.
You contribute your harnessed streams to increase the pattern's potential.
Your cambrinth armband emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
The brocket deer bleats in anger as you cast at it!
A heavy piece of stone rips itself free of the earth, shatters into a few jagged shards and hurtles toward an elder red brocket deer!
The first shard impacts causing a solid hit to an elder red brocket deer's right leg.
The second shard impacts causing a good strike to an elder red brocket deer's chest.
The brocket deer is lightly stunned!
The final shard impacts causing a good strike to an elder red brocket deer's abdomen.
The brocket deer falls to the ground, letting out an angry bleating sound while kicking at empty air with its hooves. Raising its head one last time as if in defiance, the deer softly exhales its final breath.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
Dead in two casts, which seems about the same with how fast they were killing with FB (although that could kill EVERYTHING at melee..)
On the messaging: I also want to note I far prefer seeing every hit be its own line vs all one one line. Having them be their one items makes it easier to digest what is happening at a glance, vs having to read a full line of text through the scroll of combat otherwise.
It(Fireball) feels like a superior spell. Its the same slot cost and difficulty thus my comparison. It hits multiple opponents, multiple times and results in lovely stuns.
I cant make Chastise do any meaningful amount of damage, pumping tons of mana against creatures I easily hit with my TM. I can kill a warklin in 5 casts of FST or STRA with about 20 mana in each, but after 8 casts of Chastise at 57 mana, my target is still kicking. Seeing 57 mana results in 4 glancing blows is really disheartening.
However I wanted to compare spells, sadly I cant cast them on the same creature really but here is FST at 30 mana vs something 'at level'
Cast one
You gesture at an elder red brocket deer.
Your cambrinth armband emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
The brocket deer bleats in anger as you cast at it!
A stone slab rips itself free of the earth, shatters into numerous jagged shards and hurtles toward an elder red brocket deer!
The first shard impacts causing a good strike to an elder red brocket deer's back.
The second shard impacts causing a good strike to an elder red brocket deer's chest.
The third shard impacts causing a good strike to an elder red brocket deer's left leg.
The final shard impacts causing a good strike to an elder red brocket deer's back.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
Cast two
You gesture at an elder red brocket deer.
You contribute your harnessed streams to increase the pattern's potential.
Your cambrinth armband emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
The brocket deer bleats in anger as you cast at it!
A heavy piece of stone rips itself free of the earth, shatters into a few jagged shards and hurtles toward an elder red brocket deer!
The first shard impacts causing a solid hit to an elder red brocket deer's right leg.
The second shard impacts causing a good strike to an elder red brocket deer's chest.
The brocket deer is lightly stunned!
The final shard impacts causing a good strike to an elder red brocket deer's abdomen.
The brocket deer falls to the ground, letting out an angry bleating sound while kicking at empty air with its hooves. Raising its head one last time as if in defiance, the deer softly exhales its final breath.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
Dead in two casts, which seems about the same with how fast they were killing with FB (although that could kill EVERYTHING at melee..)
On the messaging: I also want to note I far prefer seeing every hit be its own line vs all one one line. Having them be their one items makes it easier to digest what is happening at a glance, vs having to read a full line of text through the scroll of combat otherwise.
DR-RAESH
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 05:02 AM CST
>>On the messaging: I also want to note I far prefer seeing every hit be its own line vs all one one line. Having them be their one items makes it easier to digest what is happening at a glance, vs having to read a full line of text through the scroll of combat otherwise.
Do other people feel this way?
It's way harder for me to get the messaging to work right with the way it is. I like the sleek low scroll result, but I'm willing to entertain formatting it more like a traditional multishot spell if people would prefer.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Do other people feel this way?
It's way harder for me to get the messaging to work right with the way it is. I like the sleek low scroll result, but I'm willing to entertain formatting it more like a traditional multishot spell if people would prefer.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
DR-RAESH
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 05:07 AM CST
A quick side by side comparison of stone strike to chastise in my testing showed nearly identical damage (The weighting is a little different, but overall it was extremely close). As would be expected since they're using the same mechanics.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
ASHAMAN1
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 05:43 AM CST
>>It's way harder for me to get the messaging to work right with the way it is. I like the sleek low scroll result, but I'm willing to entertain formatting it more like a traditional multishot spell if people would prefer.
For what its worth Raesh I prefer the sleeker less spammy approach to the messaging as well.
Thanks,
Samsaren
For what its worth Raesh I prefer the sleeker less spammy approach to the messaging as well.
Thanks,
Samsaren
EDERICK
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 08:20 AM CST
Did the warklin have any vitality damage to it with those casts? They weren't exactly hard hitting so if you aren't getting past the point of high damage reduction from vitality you aren't going to do good damage. Also how much TM do you have, is it enough to justify landing hard hits against them?
REWYN
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 09:42 AM CST
Mid 300's TM, high discipline with MO up.
I kill them in five casts of FST or STRA. FST test was done wielding a hammer to replicate the impact damage. This was also with far less mana than Chastise per cast.
I would be curious as to how many warrior mages actually use Stone Strike compared to their other multi hit TM spells, especially over circle 40. My guess is it becomes less and less seen for a reason. I think heavy physical damage spells dont scale as well in DR as elemental because creature armor in general seems to go up.
I also dont think warklin have any special impact damage reduction (they do to slice) so the idea they are special snowflakes and can absorb all the damage seems wrong. I did the same tests vs Mature/Adult Gryphons and got similar damage results (which I can kill in 5 FST casts as well using a hammer).
If STS works like this then was I a WM id never use it either..
I kill them in five casts of FST or STRA. FST test was done wielding a hammer to replicate the impact damage. This was also with far less mana than Chastise per cast.
I would be curious as to how many warrior mages actually use Stone Strike compared to their other multi hit TM spells, especially over circle 40. My guess is it becomes less and less seen for a reason. I think heavy physical damage spells dont scale as well in DR as elemental because creature armor in general seems to go up.
I also dont think warklin have any special impact damage reduction (they do to slice) so the idea they are special snowflakes and can absorb all the damage seems wrong. I did the same tests vs Mature/Adult Gryphons and got similar damage results (which I can kill in 5 FST casts as well using a hammer).
If STS works like this then was I a WM id never use it either..
REWYN
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 10:26 AM CST
This will require more testing, but last night I was seeing min cast SMH hitting better/most consistently than 52 mana Chastises. Just to put everything I'm noticing into perspective.
20 mana FST easily seems to out perform 52 mana Chastise on the same target, both dealing impact damage.
20 mana STRA seems to out perform 52 mana Chastises, although i feel FST hits harder then STRA, but I'm not certain.
15 (min) mana SMH might be hitting harder and better than 52 mana chastises. More testing needs to be done here, although SMH hi
I also feel the damage comparison to STS is ..interesting. I wish the test realm was open to test it out via sorcery but my expectation is as an introductory spell that you can funnel 1 mana into for minimum effect and chain cast performs alright in its roll of sending out lots of waves of small damage. Chastise is much more mana intensive and I really dont see why. I dont think the knock down effect is as potent as its weighted to be. The spell seems tuned as a basic spell, because a quick glance at other advance multi strikes really underlines that this spell is no where near as effective. I realize you dislike the comparison to Fireball, but they are the same difficulty and slot cost. I do not think for a second any paladin would not gladly trade Chastise for a version of FB.
Suggestion: Paladins already have 2 physical TM spells. Having a third that gets hit so hard by mitigation seems like overkill. We have no source of elemental damage; can we change Chastise to be an elemental damage spell (Cold seems the most appropriate). This would help a lot with its performance and make the spell more unique in our spell book. I think the success some people are seeing in damage is due to hunting lower level creatures, because in the limited tests I have seen from people above me in level has underlined that this spell is doing next to no damage (100 mana quatro hit on a stomper doing glancing/glancing/glancing).
I appreciate the work in the spell, I think its awesome and would love the perception here to be constructive feedback and not forum ranting:)
20 mana FST easily seems to out perform 52 mana Chastise on the same target, both dealing impact damage.
20 mana STRA seems to out perform 52 mana Chastises, although i feel FST hits harder then STRA, but I'm not certain.
15 (min) mana SMH might be hitting harder and better than 52 mana chastises. More testing needs to be done here, although SMH hi
I also feel the damage comparison to STS is ..interesting. I wish the test realm was open to test it out via sorcery but my expectation is as an introductory spell that you can funnel 1 mana into for minimum effect and chain cast performs alright in its roll of sending out lots of waves of small damage. Chastise is much more mana intensive and I really dont see why. I dont think the knock down effect is as potent as its weighted to be. The spell seems tuned as a basic spell, because a quick glance at other advance multi strikes really underlines that this spell is no where near as effective. I realize you dislike the comparison to Fireball, but they are the same difficulty and slot cost. I do not think for a second any paladin would not gladly trade Chastise for a version of FB.
Suggestion: Paladins already have 2 physical TM spells. Having a third that gets hit so hard by mitigation seems like overkill. We have no source of elemental damage; can we change Chastise to be an elemental damage spell (Cold seems the most appropriate). This would help a lot with its performance and make the spell more unique in our spell book. I think the success some people are seeing in damage is due to hunting lower level creatures, because in the limited tests I have seen from people above me in level has underlined that this spell is doing next to no damage (100 mana quatro hit on a stomper doing glancing/glancing/glancing).
I appreciate the work in the spell, I think its awesome and would love the perception here to be constructive feedback and not forum ranting:)
2DUMBARSE
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 10:32 AM CST
>It's way harder for me to get the messaging to work right with the way it is.
It looked to me like it took a lot of work. The knockdown looks like it might’ve been a lot of work, too. I don’t think any other spell in its class works that way.
Less spammy is usually better IMO.
>damage
The damage is fine but you really need to pump this spell, like all spells, with mana to be effective. Now… If I may be so bold, I’d like to make a request that the cast mods for chastise can be changed to basic like spells such as stampede and TKT. I know those spells don’t knock down so this may be pie in the sky, but worth a shot. It would make the spell a lot easier to use effectively at all ranges for all of us inefficient (magic tertiary) mana users.
It looked to me like it took a lot of work. The knockdown looks like it might’ve been a lot of work, too. I don’t think any other spell in its class works that way.
Less spammy is usually better IMO.
>damage
The damage is fine but you really need to pump this spell, like all spells, with mana to be effective. Now… If I may be so bold, I’d like to make a request that the cast mods for chastise can be changed to basic like spells such as stampede and TKT. I know those spells don’t knock down so this may be pie in the sky, but worth a shot. It would make the spell a lot easier to use effectively at all ranges for all of us inefficient (magic tertiary) mana users.
ANOUSHKA
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 10:39 AM CST
>It's way harder for me to get the messaging to work right with the way it is.
I also prefer the spell be less spammy.
I also prefer the spell be less spammy.
REWYN
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 11:19 AM CST
>>The damage is fine but you really need to pump this spell, like all spells, with mana to be effective. Now… If I may be so bold, I’d like to make a request that the cast mods for chastise can be changed to basic like spells such as stampede and TKT. I know those spells don’t knock down so this may be pie in the sky, but worth a shot. It would make the spell a lot easier to use effectively at all ranges for all of us inefficient (magic tertiary) mana users.
Maybe this. I know right now with 50 mana (Half its cap) I'm seeing rather pathetic amounts of damage. I think the goal was to get us an advanced TM spell to fill the gap but as it is if this remains advanced I really think its performance needs to be tweaked (substantially, at that).
The alternative is make the spell easier so we can pump more mana into it. If the damage is comparable to STS (introductory spell) and the only thing it does better than it is a knock down, then I really dont see why it would be an advanced spell.
Sadly I since the damage per mana would likely remain about the same, I dont see why I would cast this over FST even with the better cast mods (presuming it goes down to basic I could fit in an extra 10 or 20 mana, but I presume regardless of the change that a 50 mana cast would have the same damage mods regardless of difficulty). The former spell just seems to hit harder at reasonable amounts of mana and has a better time going through damage reduction. The draw for elemental multi strikes is that creatures/players in general have less defense against elemental damage than physical, so lots of small sources of elemental add up pretty well (it seems). Lots of sources of physical damage get mitigated down heavily. LT users complain about this issue, and they are just spamming throwing knives every 5 seconds, they arnt throwing tons of mana, charge preps, targets, etc.
I'm really hoping the spell is just shifted to elemental damage (Cold/Lighting) from Physical. It seems like the easiest and healthiest solution. It would keep us with an advanced TM spell (we need one), it would give us a tactical damage option compared to FST/SMH (physical) and would help its performance.
Maybe this. I know right now with 50 mana (Half its cap) I'm seeing rather pathetic amounts of damage. I think the goal was to get us an advanced TM spell to fill the gap but as it is if this remains advanced I really think its performance needs to be tweaked (substantially, at that).
The alternative is make the spell easier so we can pump more mana into it. If the damage is comparable to STS (introductory spell) and the only thing it does better than it is a knock down, then I really dont see why it would be an advanced spell.
Sadly I since the damage per mana would likely remain about the same, I dont see why I would cast this over FST even with the better cast mods (presuming it goes down to basic I could fit in an extra 10 or 20 mana, but I presume regardless of the change that a 50 mana cast would have the same damage mods regardless of difficulty). The former spell just seems to hit harder at reasonable amounts of mana and has a better time going through damage reduction. The draw for elemental multi strikes is that creatures/players in general have less defense against elemental damage than physical, so lots of small sources of elemental add up pretty well (it seems). Lots of sources of physical damage get mitigated down heavily. LT users complain about this issue, and they are just spamming throwing knives every 5 seconds, they arnt throwing tons of mana, charge preps, targets, etc.
I'm really hoping the spell is just shifted to elemental damage (Cold/Lighting) from Physical. It seems like the easiest and healthiest solution. It would keep us with an advanced TM spell (we need one), it would give us a tactical damage option compared to FST/SMH (physical) and would help its performance.
DR-RAESH
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 11:22 AM CST
>>If the damage is comparable to STS (introductory spell) and the only thing it does better than it is a knock down, then I really dont see why it would be an advanced spell.
All TM spells use the same damage model. None of them factor in tier.
Tier is determined by complexity.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
All TM spells use the same damage model. None of them factor in tier.
Tier is determined by complexity.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
REWYN
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 11:27 AM CST
<<All TM spells use the same damage model. None of them factor in tier.
Tier is determined by complexity.>>
Thank you for the clarification. In that case I don't think the addition of the knock down really warrants the complexity increase from an introductory to an advanced spell. This seems to me to be a 2 slot Basic Spell (its basically STS(1 slot, Intro) with half the effect of an ice path (2 slot, basic) so that seems to me to be a 2 slot basic).
Then again I think the underlying issue here is that multi strike physical damage dealers seem to perform poorly after a given level, and that Paladins dont have any magical options to do anything other than physical without going to other guilds spells. Its feels like our damage options are a bit pigeon holed in that sense.
I'll do tests tonight on a wider array of creatures for validations sake.
Tier is determined by complexity.>>
Thank you for the clarification. In that case I don't think the addition of the knock down really warrants the complexity increase from an introductory to an advanced spell. This seems to me to be a 2 slot Basic Spell (its basically STS(1 slot, Intro) with half the effect of an ice path (2 slot, basic) so that seems to me to be a 2 slot basic).
Then again I think the underlying issue here is that multi strike physical damage dealers seem to perform poorly after a given level, and that Paladins dont have any magical options to do anything other than physical without going to other guilds spells. Its feels like our damage options are a bit pigeon holed in that sense.
I'll do tests tonight on a wider array of creatures for validations sake.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 11:38 AM CST
>>Also I think some of the variance you're seeing in the number of shots is that the spell doesn't message when it misses or has no effect (Absorbed by armor, entirely deflected by the shield etc) since conceptually the spell is a wall of force instead of multiple shots. This has led to a giant messaging nightmare that took several attempts to resolve and delayed the spell at least a month, so I'm kinda determined to make it work some way somehow.
What's the possibility of getting one extra word that gives a rough indication of how much of the wall of force actually hits the target?
You sweep your shield towards a critter.
Your cambrinth armband emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
Your cambrinth band emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
A stark white light emanates from the shield which [fully|partially|barely] crashes into the critter.
The force inflicts...
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
What's the possibility of getting one extra word that gives a rough indication of how much of the wall of force actually hits the target?
You sweep your shield towards a critter.
Your cambrinth armband emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
Your cambrinth band emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
A stark white light emanates from the shield which [fully|partially|barely] crashes into the critter.
The force inflicts...
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
DR-RAESH
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 11:47 AM CST
I think I'm confused with what you're trying to accomplish.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
2DUMBARSE
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 12:18 PM CST
> All TM spells use the same damage model. None of them factor in tier.
Sorry, my request might've been unclear. I was asking about lowering the tier to lower the min prep so it's easier to use and pump mana into.
I don't know if it's too complex to be basic due to the knockdown but I'm hoping the ambiguity of the word complex might skew things in my/our favor.
Sorry, my request might've been unclear. I was asking about lowering the tier to lower the min prep so it's easier to use and pump mana into.
I don't know if it's too complex to be basic due to the knockdown but I'm hoping the ambiguity of the word complex might skew things in my/our favor.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 12:26 PM CST
>>I think I'm confused with what you're trying to accomplish.
My understanding of the spell is that it's meant to be a wall of force hitting multiple body parts at once, as opposed to multiple things hitting body parts individually.
But, because of the way the messaging is displayed (compact, which is good!), it's not mechanically possible to show when something is deflected, dodged, absorbed, or otherwise mitigated.
I figured that showing how much of the wall of force hit the target (fully/partially/barely/etc) would at least provide some indication of how many hits could have landed versus how many actually did, since showing misses/blocks/etc just wouldn't work in the way the damage messaging is formatted.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
My understanding of the spell is that it's meant to be a wall of force hitting multiple body parts at once, as opposed to multiple things hitting body parts individually.
But, because of the way the messaging is displayed (compact, which is good!), it's not mechanically possible to show when something is deflected, dodged, absorbed, or otherwise mitigated.
I figured that showing how much of the wall of force hit the target (fully/partially/barely/etc) would at least provide some indication of how many hits could have landed versus how many actually did, since showing misses/blocks/etc just wouldn't work in the way the damage messaging is formatted.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
REWYN
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 12:29 PM CST
Anyone have a cleric FF scroll? I'll purchase it, would like to test another multi target spell on the same character to do a better side by side comparison.
WBURKE1
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 01:05 PM CST
>>Then again I think the underlying issue here is that multi strike physical damage dealers seem to perform poorly after a given level, and that Paladins dont have any magical options to do anything other than physical without going to other guilds spells. Its feels like our damage options are a bit pigeon holed in that sense.
I get the impression that's a deliberate weakness in the Paladin spellbook, the same way that Moon Mages have limited AoE options, or that Warrior Mages (mostly) don't get non-combat spells. Every guild is supposed to have limits to what they can do with their magic.
I get the impression that's a deliberate weakness in the Paladin spellbook, the same way that Moon Mages have limited AoE options, or that Warrior Mages (mostly) don't get non-combat spells. Every guild is supposed to have limits to what they can do with their magic.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 01:20 PM CST
>>I get the impression that's a deliberate weakness in the Paladin spellbook
IMO the deliberate paladin weakness is the notable lack of debuffs.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
IMO the deliberate paladin weakness is the notable lack of debuffs.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
REWYN
Re: Playing with Chastise
02/15/2013 01:44 PM CST
>>IMO the deliberate paladin weakness is the notable lack of debuffs.
This, our debil are short duration CC effects, not curses, debuffs, etc (unless you count hands of justice? hah).
This, our debil are short duration CC effects, not curses, debuffs, etc (unless you count hands of justice? hah).
ANOUSHKA
Re: Playing with Rebuke
02/15/2013 01:56 PM CST
I am a bit disappointed to see your original, elegant version of the spell's damage changed to be so spammy, but the spell still feels weak to me as well.
The below casts are full target, min prep + 48 in camb (63 mana). And 356 TM vs a baby gryphon.
You rebuke a baby forest gryphon with your pavise shield.
Your cambrinth armband emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the baby forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a glancing strike (0/22) to a baby forest gryphon's abdomen.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The second wave inflicts a glancing strike (0/22) to a baby forest gryphon's left eye.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The third wave inflicts a glancing strike (0/22) to a baby forest gryphon's chest.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The fourth wave inflicts a glancing strike (0/22) to a baby forest gryphon's back.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The final wave inflicts a good hit (2/22) to a baby forest gryphon's back.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The baby forest gryphon has faint scuffing to the chest, faint scuffing to the abdomen, faint scuffing to the back, faint scuffing to the left eye.
You rebuke a baby forest gryphon with your pavise shield.
Your cambrinth armband emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
Waves of shimmering silver light shine from the shield which crash over the baby forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a good hit (2/22) to a baby forest gryphon's abdomen.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The second wave inflicts a good strike (3/22) to a baby forest gryphon's abdomen.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The final wave inflicts a glancing strike (0/22) to a baby forest gryphon's neck.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The baby forest gryphon has faint scuffing to the neck, faint scuffing to the chest, faint scuffing to the abdomen, faint scuffing to the back, faint scuffing to the left eye.
You rebuke a baby forest gryphon with your pavise shield.
Your cambrinth armband emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the baby forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a good strike (3/22) to a baby forest gryphon's chest.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The second wave inflicts a solid hit (4/22) to a baby forest gryphon's abdomen.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The final wave inflicts a strong hit (6/22) to a baby forest gryphon's abdomen.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The baby forest gryphon is lightly stunned!
The baby forest gryphon has faint scuffing to the neck, faint scuffing to the chest, minor swelling and bruising in the abdomen compounded by cuts and bruises about the abdomen, faint scuffing to the back, faint scuffing to the left eye.
tl; dr
I pumped a total of three casts with 63 mana against a single baby gryphon and couldn't even knock it down, let alone cause serious damage to it.
The below casts are full target, min prep + 48 in camb (63 mana). And 356 TM vs a baby gryphon.
You rebuke a baby forest gryphon with your pavise shield.
Your cambrinth armband emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the baby forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a glancing strike (0/22) to a baby forest gryphon's abdomen.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The second wave inflicts a glancing strike (0/22) to a baby forest gryphon's left eye.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The third wave inflicts a glancing strike (0/22) to a baby forest gryphon's chest.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The fourth wave inflicts a glancing strike (0/22) to a baby forest gryphon's back.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The final wave inflicts a good hit (2/22) to a baby forest gryphon's back.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The baby forest gryphon has faint scuffing to the chest, faint scuffing to the abdomen, faint scuffing to the back, faint scuffing to the left eye.
You rebuke a baby forest gryphon with your pavise shield.
Your cambrinth armband emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
Waves of shimmering silver light shine from the shield which crash over the baby forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a good hit (2/22) to a baby forest gryphon's abdomen.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The second wave inflicts a good strike (3/22) to a baby forest gryphon's abdomen.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The final wave inflicts a glancing strike (0/22) to a baby forest gryphon's neck.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The baby forest gryphon has faint scuffing to the neck, faint scuffing to the chest, faint scuffing to the abdomen, faint scuffing to the back, faint scuffing to the left eye.
You rebuke a baby forest gryphon with your pavise shield.
Your cambrinth armband emits a loud snap as it discharges all its power to aid your spell.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the baby forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a good strike (3/22) to a baby forest gryphon's chest.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The second wave inflicts a solid hit (4/22) to a baby forest gryphon's abdomen.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The final wave inflicts a strong hit (6/22) to a baby forest gryphon's abdomen.
The baby forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The baby forest gryphon is lightly stunned!
The baby forest gryphon has faint scuffing to the neck, faint scuffing to the chest, minor swelling and bruising in the abdomen compounded by cuts and bruises about the abdomen, faint scuffing to the back, faint scuffing to the left eye.
tl; dr
I pumped a total of three casts with 63 mana against a single baby gryphon and couldn't even knock it down, let alone cause serious damage to it.
REWYN
Re: Playing with Rebuke
02/15/2013 02:03 PM CST
>>I pumped a total of three casts with 63 mana against a single baby gryphon and couldn't even knock it down, let alone cause serious damage to it.
Thank you for the test. I had not thought to go that far down the creature ladder. My TM is in the same range as yours. I have been casting MO and DiG for the Disc/Int buff and doing 52 mana casts on the third tier gryphons and not scathing them.
I'm pretty sure your TM skill is well above baby gryphons teaching ranges, at least at the soft cap, and they have paper thing defenses/absorptions.
I trust Raesh is super smart and love his work, but I cant see how this spell is performing as intended unless it was intended to not work very well (which I doubt. As noted, he is super smart and his work is great, so I think there is generally some issues that need to be looked at, if not in the spell, then in the systems it interacts with).
Thank you for the test. I had not thought to go that far down the creature ladder. My TM is in the same range as yours. I have been casting MO and DiG for the Disc/Int buff and doing 52 mana casts on the third tier gryphons and not scathing them.
I'm pretty sure your TM skill is well above baby gryphons teaching ranges, at least at the soft cap, and they have paper thing defenses/absorptions.
I trust Raesh is super smart and love his work, but I cant see how this spell is performing as intended unless it was intended to not work very well (which I doubt. As noted, he is super smart and his work is great, so I think there is generally some issues that need to be looked at, if not in the spell, then in the systems it interacts with).
ANOUSHKA
Re: Playing with Rebuke
02/15/2013 02:08 PM CST
For reference, it took eight total casts to kill the one baby gryphon with 63 mana each time. In comparison, it took four casts of FST with 53 mana each time to kill another baby gryphon. For anyone feeling curious, here's how they looked at the end.
Rebuke
You see a baby forest gryphon, which is dead.
The baby forest gryphon has faint scuffing to the head, a severely swollen and deeply bruised neck compounded by deep cuts across the neck, minor swelling and bruising around the right leg compounded by cuts and bruises about the right leg, a severely swollen and deeply bruised left leg compounded by deep cuts across the left leg, minor swelling and bruising in the chest area compounded by cuts and bruises about the chest area, severely swollen and bruised abdomen compounded by deep cuts across the abdomen, severely swollen and bruised back compounded by deep cuts across the back, faint scuffing to the left eye.
FST
You see a baby forest gryphon, which is dead.
The baby forest gryphon has minor swelling and bruising around the right leg compounded by cuts and bruises about the right leg, a severely swollen and deeply bruised chest area with ribs protruding out from the skin compounded by a shattered chest area with gaping wounds, minor swelling and bruising in the abdomen compounded by cuts and bruises about the abdomen, a severely swollen and deeply bruised back with odd protrusions under the skin compounded by gaping holes in the back.
Rebuke
You see a baby forest gryphon, which is dead.
The baby forest gryphon has faint scuffing to the head, a severely swollen and deeply bruised neck compounded by deep cuts across the neck, minor swelling and bruising around the right leg compounded by cuts and bruises about the right leg, a severely swollen and deeply bruised left leg compounded by deep cuts across the left leg, minor swelling and bruising in the chest area compounded by cuts and bruises about the chest area, severely swollen and bruised abdomen compounded by deep cuts across the abdomen, severely swollen and bruised back compounded by deep cuts across the back, faint scuffing to the left eye.
FST
You see a baby forest gryphon, which is dead.
The baby forest gryphon has minor swelling and bruising around the right leg compounded by cuts and bruises about the right leg, a severely swollen and deeply bruised chest area with ribs protruding out from the skin compounded by a shattered chest area with gaping wounds, minor swelling and bruising in the abdomen compounded by cuts and bruises about the abdomen, a severely swollen and deeply bruised back with odd protrusions under the skin compounded by gaping holes in the back.
DAENAR-DR
Re: Playing with Rebuke
02/15/2013 02:17 PM CST
The knockback portion seems bugged. I don't think it's supposed to trigger on EVERY multi hit. Also, is the knockdown a SvS contest?
ANOUSHKA
Re: Playing with Rebuke
02/15/2013 02:25 PM CST
Looking over the other hits to kill that one baby gryphon (which I can post, if necessary - I preferred to avoid being that spammy), it looks like I failed to knock the gryphon back in any of the hits.
Appraising a third baby gryphon results in:
You are certain that it is rather weaker than you are.
You are certain that it is rather less agile than you are.
You are certain that it is definitely less disciplined than you are.
You are certain that it is definitely less quick to react than you are.
You are certain that it is rather less conditioned than you are.
Appraising a third baby gryphon results in:
You are certain that it is rather weaker than you are.
You are certain that it is rather less agile than you are.
You are certain that it is definitely less disciplined than you are.
You are certain that it is definitely less quick to react than you are.
You are certain that it is rather less conditioned than you are.
VOLCANUS
Re: Playing with Rebuke
02/15/2013 02:34 PM CST
A few tests myself:
Min casts. Full target. 254 TM.
FST - 2x 4 cast kills. 50-75% of casts caused a stun. Relatively mana neutral.
Rebuke (chastise) - Similar results as before - takes twice as many casts to kill and drops me to < 20% mana after 8-9 casts (1 kill). It's also expensive to cast, not finely taragetable, and the secondary effect doesn't appear to hit while at level.
Opinion: I like the messaging, and I like the concept; but the damage just isn't there. Unless you specifically need a multi-strike spell, or a higher level spell for training purposes, it's worse than FST in every case in it's current form. This would likely not apply if the knockback chance was increased or the damage type changed.
FST With a Sabre
You gesture at a young forest gryphon with your acid-etched sabre.
A few golden sparks flash about the tip of the sabre, blinking out of sight near-instantly.
Several bloody dots appear on the young forest gryphon's chest.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You gesture at a young forest gryphon with your acid-etched sabre.
A few golden sparks flash about the tip of the sabre, blinking out of sight near-instantly.
Several bloody dots appear on the young forest gryphon's head.
The young forest gryphon is stunned!
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You gesture at a young forest gryphon with your acid-etched sabre.
A few golden sparks flash about the tip of the sabre, blinking out of sight near-instantly.
The young forest gryphon stumbles momentarily as a deep puncture bores into its abdomen.
The young forest gryphon is severely stunned!
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You gesture at a young forest gryphon with your acid-etched sabre.
A few golden sparks flash about the tip of the sabre, blinking out of sight near-instantly.
A large hole tears open the flesh of the young forest gryphon's left eye as though struck by an invisible arrow!
A young forest gryphon collapses into a lifeless mound of fur and feathers.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
FST with a broadsword
You gesture at a young forest gryphon with your steel broadsword.
A few golden sparks flash along the edge of the broadsword, blinking out of sight near-instantly.
Several bloody dents appear on the young forest gryphon's back.
The young forest gryphon is lightly stunned!
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You gesture at a young forest gryphon with your steel broadsword.
A few golden sparks flash along the edge of the broadsword, blinking out of sight near-instantly.
Several bloody dents appear on the young forest gryphon's left eye.
The young forest gryphon is stunned!
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You gesture at a young forest gryphon with your steel broadsword.
A few golden sparks flash along the edge of the broadsword, blinking out of sight near-instantly.
A series of bloody dents appear on the young forest gryphon's right hind leg in a crisscrossed pattern.
The young forest gryphon is lightly stunned!
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You gesture at a young forest gryphon with your steel broadsword.
A few golden sparks flash along the edge of the broadsword, blinking out of sight near-instantly.
The young forest gryphon stumbles momentarily as a deep cut is slashed into its chest.
A young forest gryphon collapses into a lifeless mound of fur and feathers.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
Rebuke #1
You rebuke a young forest gryphon with your steel shield.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the young forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a glancing strike to a young forest gryphon's chest.
The young forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The second wave inflicts a glancing strike to a young forest gryphon's left hind leg.
The final wave inflicts a glancing strike to a young forest gryphon's neck.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You rebuke a young forest gryphon with your steel shield.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the young forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a glancing strike to a young forest gryphon's chest.
The young forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The second wave inflicts a light hit to a young forest gryphon's left hind leg.
The final wave inflicts a light hit to a young forest gryphon's neck.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You rebuke a young forest gryphon with your steel shield.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the young forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a good hit to a young forest gryphon's left hind leg.
The young forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The second wave inflicts a glancing strike to a young forest gryphon's back.
The final wave inflicts a glancing strike to a young forest gryphon's back.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You rebuke a young forest gryphon with your steel shield.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the young forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a good hit to a young forest gryphon's abdomen.
The young forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The second wave inflicts a good strike to a young forest gryphon's back.
The final wave inflicts a good strike to a young forest gryphon's chest.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You rebuke a young forest gryphon with your steel shield.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the young forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a good hit to a young forest gryphon's right hind leg.
The young forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The second wave inflicts a solid hit to a young forest gryphon's abdomen.
The final wave passes harmlessly over a young forest gryphon.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You rebuke a young forest gryphon with your steel shield.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the young forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a hard hit to a young forest gryphon's left hind leg.
The young forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The final wave inflicts a good strike to a young forest gryphon's neck.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You rebuke a young forest gryphon with your steel shield.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the young forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a heavy strike to a young forest gryphon's abdomen.
The young forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The young forest gryphon is lightly stunned!
The final wave inflicts a heavy strike to a young forest gryphon's chest.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You rebuke a young forest gryphon with your steel shield.
Waves of shimmering silver light shine from the shield which crash over the young forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts an extremely heavy hit to a young forest gryphon's back.
The young forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The young forest gryphon is stunned!
The final wave inflicts an awesome strike to a young forest gryphon's chest.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You rebuke a young forest gryphon with your steel shield.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the young forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a massive strike to a young forest gryphon's abdomen.
The young forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The young forest gryphon is stunned!
The final wave inflicts an apocalyptic strike to a young forest gryphon's chest.
A young forest gryphon collapses into a lifeless mound of fur and feathers.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
Rebuke #2
You rebuke a young forest gryphon with your steel shield.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the young forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a light hit to a young forest gryphon's chest.
The young forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The final wave inflicts a light hit to a young forest gryphon's neck.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You rebuke a young forest gryphon with your steel shield.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the young forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a good hit to a young forest gryphon's head.
The young forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The final wave inflicts a good hit to a young forest gryphon's left eye.
The young forest gryphon is lightly stunned!
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You rebuke a young forest gryphon with your steel shield.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the young forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a good hit to a young forest gryphon's left hind leg.
The young forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The final wave inflicts a good strike to a young forest gryphon's left hind leg.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You rebuke a young forest gryphon with your steel shield.
Waves of shimmering silver light shine from the shield which crash over the young forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a hard hit to a young forest gryphon's left hind leg.
The young forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The final wave inflicts a strong hit to a young forest gryphon's abdomen.
The young forest gryphon is lightly stunned!
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You rebuke a young forest gryphon with your steel shield.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the young forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a hard hit to a young forest gryphon's head.
The young forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The young forest gryphon is lightly stunned!
The second wave inflicts a heavy strike to a young forest gryphon's left hind leg.
The final wave inflicts a powerful strike to a young forest gryphon's left hind leg.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You rebuke a young forest gryphon with your steel shield.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the young forest gryphon.
The first wave inflicts a devastating hit to a young forest gryphon's left hind leg.
The young forest gryphon flinches slightly at the impact, but is otherwise unmoved.
The young forest gryphon is stunned!
The second wave inflicts an awesome strike to a young forest gryphon's abdomen.
The final wave inflicts a hard hit to a young forest gryphon's right hind leg.
A young forest gryphon collapses into a lifeless mound of fur and feathers.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
DR-RAESH
Re: Playing with Rebuke
02/15/2013 03:00 PM CST
I'm telling you, it's working right. It's going through the exact same mechanics as every other TM spell. There is no setting I can play with for "make this spell do less damage" or "make this spell do more damage".
I just turned on all debug messaging, copied your paladin, and took several shots at a creature.
I then recreated a fresh version of the creature, turned myself in to a warrior mage with your exact same stats, and cast stone strike at the same mana.
Each hit was doing nearly identical damage (There's some random in there, but they were certainly in the same range). Keep in mind that multishot spells do a LOT less damage per hit than single shot, so anything that has flat damage reduction is going to hinder the damage of a multishot spell a lot.
If there's something there, it's in core magic and I wasn't able to turn it up after a significant amount of testing.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
I just turned on all debug messaging, copied your paladin, and took several shots at a creature.
I then recreated a fresh version of the creature, turned myself in to a warrior mage with your exact same stats, and cast stone strike at the same mana.
Each hit was doing nearly identical damage (There's some random in there, but they were certainly in the same range). Keep in mind that multishot spells do a LOT less damage per hit than single shot, so anything that has flat damage reduction is going to hinder the damage of a multishot spell a lot.
If there's something there, it's in core magic and I wasn't able to turn it up after a significant amount of testing.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
DR-RAESH
Re: Playing with Rebuke
02/15/2013 03:01 PM CST
Hmm. That was more spammy then it should have been when they're immune to knock down. Should be better now.
>>I pumped a total of three casts with 63 mana against a single baby gryphon and couldn't even knock it down, let alone cause serious damage to it.
Gryphons are still immune to knock down, just like they were earlier in the thread.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>>I pumped a total of three casts with 63 mana against a single baby gryphon and couldn't even knock it down, let alone cause serious damage to it.
Gryphons are still immune to knock down, just like they were earlier in the thread.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
ANOUSHKA
Re: Playing with Rebuke
02/15/2013 03:06 PM CST
My apologies over the knockback bit then as I didn't see that in the earlier posts.
I am still disappointed in the damage potential of this spell. I understand multi-shots do less damage per hit, but it took twice as many casts to kill a baby gryphon as it did using FST.
I was really excited by the idea of this spell. Now I feel that I would only pick it up if it happens to train exceptionally well.
I am still disappointed in the damage potential of this spell. I understand multi-shots do less damage per hit, but it took twice as many casts to kill a baby gryphon as it did using FST.
I was really excited by the idea of this spell. Now I feel that I would only pick it up if it happens to train exceptionally well.
VOLCANUS
Re: Playing with Rebuke
02/15/2013 03:19 PM CST
>> I just turned on all debug messaging, copied your paladin, and took several shots at a creature.
I believe you. I'm not saying there is a bug.
>> Keep in mind that multishot spells do a LOT less damage per hit than single shot, so anything that has flat damage reduction is going to hinder the damage of a multishot spell a lot.
This is matching what I'm seeing. Multi-shots do a LOT less damage per hit, and this one costs MUCH more mana. So unless there's a specific need for multi-shot spells, or we can get more oomph out of the secondary ability, then I don't see reason to grab this one. What am I missing?
For what it's worth, I'm fine with a niche spell. I would just want that niche to have a reason to exist. In this case, the niche appears to be removing a high cast MAF more quickly than multiple single shots.
I believe you. I'm not saying there is a bug.
>> Keep in mind that multishot spells do a LOT less damage per hit than single shot, so anything that has flat damage reduction is going to hinder the damage of a multishot spell a lot.
This is matching what I'm seeing. Multi-shots do a LOT less damage per hit, and this one costs MUCH more mana. So unless there's a specific need for multi-shot spells, or we can get more oomph out of the secondary ability, then I don't see reason to grab this one. What am I missing?
For what it's worth, I'm fine with a niche spell. I would just want that niche to have a reason to exist. In this case, the niche appears to be removing a high cast MAF more quickly than multiple single shots.
VOLCANUS
Re: Playing with Rebuke
02/15/2013 03:19 PM CST
>> Gryphons are still immune to knock down, just like they were earlier in the thread.
Missed that. Thanks for the tip!
Missed that. Thanks for the tip!
DR-RAESH
Re: Playing with Rebuke
02/15/2013 03:25 PM CST
Rebuke doesn't take more mana than FST (Unless you're using near minimum casts, at which point I'd think you're mostly using it for the knock down).
... all of that said I finally found something lurking in the core magic code (In areas I've not before explored) that I think might explain some of this. I'll get with the powers that be and see what we can do. Now I really need to go pass out, I'm already up like three hours past when I should be.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
... all of that said I finally found something lurking in the core magic code (In areas I've not before explored) that I think might explain some of this. I'll get with the powers that be and see what we can do. Now I really need to go pass out, I'm already up like three hours past when I should be.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
ANOUSHKA
REWYN
Re: Playing with Rebuke
02/15/2013 03:59 PM CST
Thank you Raesh. None of us I think are complaining to drive you crazy, or disagreeing with you that Chastise/Rebuke does not match STS damage, but we think something is generally just wrong with multi strike physical spells. Might be core code, might be a bug, might be combat, might be how creatures are balanced. None of us know, but we generally think something is wrong when 60 mana thrown at a baby gryphon when your at/beyond cap for them teaching is only resulting in 4 glancing blows...
I also want to correct something; multi strike spells dont do small amounts of damage. My Warmie adores his/her multi strike spells, and its my preferred method to train them/kill. Its just that those spells deal elemental damage, which monsters seem generally very poorly equipped to mitigated compared to physical damage.
In general single hit spells do a chunk of damage
Multi strike spells do more total damage but over multiple attacks, which each get mitigated.
When mitigation is low, multi strike spells seem to win (Handily in some cases). When mitigation goes up, multi strike spells do more poorly. The issue is that creatures on a whole as you go up the creature combat ladder seem to get more physical mitigation/armor in physical stats as compared to elemental (this is just my belief of course. I have no hard data, although the 100 mana chastise cast on an assassin doing 4 glancers seems to back this up).
Anyhow, hope if there is an issue that its fixed. If there is no issue, then I hope the spell gets a revamp. Like others, I was very excited to see this spell, and very disappointed when I saw how it performed.
P.S I'm curious why some mobs are immune to knockdowns from chastise, but can be shoved and knocked over perfectly fine via other combat mechanics. Seems strange if its all supposed to be referencing the same systems.
I also want to correct something; multi strike spells dont do small amounts of damage. My Warmie adores his/her multi strike spells, and its my preferred method to train them/kill. Its just that those spells deal elemental damage, which monsters seem generally very poorly equipped to mitigated compared to physical damage.
In general single hit spells do a chunk of damage
Multi strike spells do more total damage but over multiple attacks, which each get mitigated.
When mitigation is low, multi strike spells seem to win (Handily in some cases). When mitigation goes up, multi strike spells do more poorly. The issue is that creatures on a whole as you go up the creature combat ladder seem to get more physical mitigation/armor in physical stats as compared to elemental (this is just my belief of course. I have no hard data, although the 100 mana chastise cast on an assassin doing 4 glancers seems to back this up).
Anyhow, hope if there is an issue that its fixed. If there is no issue, then I hope the spell gets a revamp. Like others, I was very excited to see this spell, and very disappointed when I saw how it performed.
P.S I'm curious why some mobs are immune to knockdowns from chastise, but can be shoved and knocked over perfectly fine via other combat mechanics. Seems strange if its all supposed to be referencing the same systems.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Playing with Rebuke
02/15/2013 04:29 PM CST
>>None of us know, but we generally think something is wrong when 60 mana thrown at a baby gryphon when your at/beyond cap for them teaching is only resulting in 4 glancing blows...
I could have been reading the logs wrong, but it looks like the glancing/light/good/etc magic damage levels don't perfectly match combat damage levels. I'm pretty sure that when I used to use BOLT, a glancing hit would result in scuffs. I'm also pretty sure that wouldn't happen with a glancing hit from a sword or whatever.
That's not to say that the damage is working perfectly, or other things aren't possibly going on, but glancing might actually mean "doing damage" when it comes to certain magic spells, versus how it means "you hit but didn't do any damage" with physical/normal weapons.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
I could have been reading the logs wrong, but it looks like the glancing/light/good/etc magic damage levels don't perfectly match combat damage levels. I'm pretty sure that when I used to use BOLT, a glancing hit would result in scuffs. I'm also pretty sure that wouldn't happen with a glancing hit from a sword or whatever.
That's not to say that the damage is working perfectly, or other things aren't possibly going on, but glancing might actually mean "doing damage" when it comes to certain magic spells, versus how it means "you hit but didn't do any damage" with physical/normal weapons.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
2DUMBARSE
Re: Playing with Rebuke
02/15/2013 04:34 PM CST
I love the knockdown. Rebuke provides lots of smitey goodness between attacks…
> cast
You rebuke a zombie mauler with your pavise shield.
Waves of shimmering silver light shine from the shield which crash over the zombie mauler.
The first wave inflicts a massive (12/23) strike to a zombie mauler's left leg.
The staggering force drives it to its knees!
The second wave inflicts an overwhelming (19/23) strike to a zombie mauler's left leg.
The overwhelming force crushes it to ground!
The final wave inflicts a very heavy (9/23) hit to a zombie mauler's chest.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
> smite
You chant a brief litany and draw back with a divinely inspired strike!
< Moving in with powerful grace, you slice a kertig bastard sword at a zombie mauler. A zombie mauler fails to dodge, only slightly avoiding the blow.
The sword flashes with a brilliant silver light and lands an awesome (13/23) strike that spills black bile on the ground as the mauler's left arm is ripped free.
A zombie mauler falls belly-up and grunts its last grunt.
[You're solidly balanced]
[Roundtime 4 sec.]
I like the force messaging better now. Thanks, Raesh. I don’t think you said anything about whether you can lower the spell difficulty (ergo min prep?) to basic. I’m guessing that means no but I’m a persistent bastard.
> Now I really need to go pass out, I'm already up like three hours past when I should be.
Thanks for the paladin love! <3
> cast
You rebuke a zombie mauler with your pavise shield.
Waves of shimmering silver light shine from the shield which crash over the zombie mauler.
The first wave inflicts a massive (12/23) strike to a zombie mauler's left leg.
The staggering force drives it to its knees!
The second wave inflicts an overwhelming (19/23) strike to a zombie mauler's left leg.
The overwhelming force crushes it to ground!
The final wave inflicts a very heavy (9/23) hit to a zombie mauler's chest.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
> smite
You chant a brief litany and draw back with a divinely inspired strike!
< Moving in with powerful grace, you slice a kertig bastard sword at a zombie mauler. A zombie mauler fails to dodge, only slightly avoiding the blow.
The sword flashes with a brilliant silver light and lands an awesome (13/23) strike that spills black bile on the ground as the mauler's left arm is ripped free.
A zombie mauler falls belly-up and grunts its last grunt.
[You're solidly balanced]
[Roundtime 4 sec.]
I like the force messaging better now. Thanks, Raesh. I don’t think you said anything about whether you can lower the spell difficulty (ergo min prep?) to basic. I’m guessing that means no but I’m a persistent bastard.
> Now I really need to go pass out, I'm already up like three hours past when I should be.
Thanks for the paladin love! <3
