Is there a reason that HOW now gives an increase to damage resistence instead of granting us additional stance points? Also, I was under the impression paladin's were getting a spell that forces an opponent to melee and prevents either side from retreating. Is that still on the table?

Some comments/questions. I removed any spell I wasn't commenting on:

==Inspiration==

>Trothfang's Rally:
>Esoteric Utility. Cyclic. Boosts the balance of all members of the Paladin's group. Also has a chance to >remove stuns or immobilization effects from group members.

- I like the sound of the secondary effects here.



==Justice==

Stun Foe:
>Intro Debilitation. Stuns the target. Shocker, right?

- Does this affect the targets balance as well?

Shatter:
Basic Debilitation. Damage amplifier.

- I'm not sure I understand what this will do. Is it different than what it currently does?

Tipping the Scales:
>Basic Augmentation. Evasion booster.

- I'm pleased that this spell will not just be a parlor trick. Is the balance swapping effect gone completely?

Clarity:
>Advanced Augmentation. Wisdom buff. Also increases a paladin's sixth sense for stealthy stuff. Can also >put a point effect on the target if it is successful enough. (self cast only)

-Like the wisdom buff. The point effect is nice as well. So if I'm understanding correctly, if you see someone mark/stalk/steal with sixth sense, successful up to getting a name at least, you could potentially not have to search them out after?

Holy Warrior:
>Esoteric Warding. Cyclic. Blesses armaments and provides excellent damage resistance.

- I'm torn here. I'm glad we have a way to replace the loss of our inate blessed brawling. I think I need to understand the damage resistance part more before I freak out about the 'loss' of 60 extra stance points.


==Sacrifice==

Alamhif's Gift:
Esoteric Utility. Eliminates Death's Sting on the target at a cost of 1 favor from Paladin. If self-cast, it will replenish the soul pool of the paladin.

- So this is no longer cast on a favorless to just hand over a favor?

---

I'll reiterate Zoz's question about the 'no hide/no retreat' spell we thought was coming. I'll add to that a request to get Smite Foe back as a TM spell, if having a third TM spell isn't over the top for a magic tert guild?

Overall the list looks a lot like what we currently have. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think aside from my own hope for a new spell or two, I'm not terribly upset with what's here.

Thank you for putting this for us to see and comment on.

~Katt

---

A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!

just a couple questions.

1. noticed under courage it said buff for paladin's group. Will it continue to have the higher effect if self-cast <only on oneself> as well? This has been a major buff, would hate to see it lose this function.

2. I didn't see any spells listed for either intro or basic warding. Will a starting paladin be able to learn these skills? Additionally, the only one listed for basic utility is HOJ, which is to "prevent" something that just doesn't happen very often anymore in the day-to-day training of a paladin <unlike courage, which is normal to have on while hunting, etc, etc. I just don't see paladins as standing around waiting for people to steal from 'em like the old "crossing-bank" days. If something is going to be "utility", I'd rather see something more "useful", in other words, I would like to see additional options for basic utility.

3.I didn't see any advanced or esoteric Debilitation spells. Also, no esoteric Augmentation. Intended?

4.I didn't see any new spells, at all.

5.Holy Warrior. Stance bonus going away? ReasoningZ

Explore the Final Frontier - the unknown calls

It would be cool of Hands of Justice also gave a bonus to searching for graverobbed items off of someone.

Ok, Going to try and answer all questions asked up to this point :P


Regarding new spells:
There will likely be one new spell, and possibly two. I haven't ironed them out with the magic team yet, so give me some time on those. I wanted to get this out to you guys sooner rather than later, so I opted to post the list without these spells. And one of them on the block is the "yank to melee with no hide/retreat" spell that has no name as of yet. :)

HOW and stance points:
There is a reason for the 'loss' of the extra stance points that this spell gives. In the new combat system, the addition of 60 stance points would be a very large buff, and while it is an esoteric spell, neither myself or any other GM would allow it to be that powerful. Discussions were had about lowering the stance points granted, but in the end it was decided that this would likely be more beneficial than a very low boost to stance points.

Stun Foe:
It will not affect the balance of the target. What happens with combat while the person is stunned may affect their balance, but the spell itself won't touch balance.

Shatter:
This spell basically amplifies the damage you output until the spell fades. So it is different than what it does now, but probably effective in more situations.

Tipping the Scales:
The balance swapping portion of the spell is gone, yes.

Clarity
>>Like the wisdom buff. The point effect is nice as well. So if I'm understanding correctly, if you see someone mark/stalk/steal with sixth sense, successful up to getting a name at least, you could potentially not have to search them out after?
Correct

AG:
Correct, this is no longer to transfer a favor to a deader. In this age of DR, it is very easy to get favors, and death isn't the awful thing that it used to be, so this seemed to be a more useful action for the spell.

>>I didn't see any advanced or esoteric Debilitation spells. Also, no esoteric Augmentation. Intended?
For now, yes.

>>I would like to see additional options for basic utility.
Such as? :)

>>Will the intelligence and wisdom buffs have any effect on the learning mechanics?
I believe so, but I'll need to double check this to be sure.

>>Just to be clear: will Divine Armor continue to improve shield protection?
Yep!

--Absinal

Sweet list, congrats guys :)

P.S. I could totally see someone making an awesome monk-like character with those spells XD

---

~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

>>Will the intelligence and wisdom buffs have any effect on the learning mechanics?
>>I believe so, but I'll need to double check this to be sure.

I would be very curious to find out the answer to this since Invocation of Energy was specifically posted not to benefit learning despite the fact that it boosts mentals.

Damian, a voice from the distant and long-forgotten past.
AIM:DamianDR

<<I would be very curious to find out the answer to this since Invocation of Energy was specifically posted not to benefit learning despite the fact that it boosts mentals.

All other mental stat boosters/drainers have no effect on learning rates, so I would be shocked if these do.

All stat boosts will have uses in 3.0 with the new spell versus defense calculations.

I had a particular interest in two spells that were discussed:

1. A spell that allowed for shield to be used against DFA offensive spells.

2. A spell that pulled someone to melee and kept them there.

Madigan

"Free the Paladin Guild." - Madigan, 2008

<<I had a particular interest in two spells that were discussed:
<<1. A spell that allowed for shield to be used against DFA offensive spells.
<<2. A spell that pulled someone to melee and kept them there.

<<Regarding new spells:
<<There will likely be one new spell, and possibly two. I haven't ironed them out with the magic team yet, so give me some time on those. I wanted to get this out to you guys sooner rather than later, so I opted to post the list without these spells. And one of them on the block is the "yank to melee with no hide/retreat" spell that has no name as of yet. :)

Patience, grasshopper.

And yes, I mostly posted this so I could refer to Madigan as 'grasshopper.' Easily amused and such.

-Evran

Moongate, Ressurection, and Fire Rain, Oh my!

To have a discussion you have to raise the points you want to discuss. Those two spells in particular interest me personally and this is good time to discuss them. I know I would have enjoyed a lively debate about why HOW should be removed prior to the release of Combat 3.0 and contrast that decision against other signature PvP skills and how they are handled prior to the release of Combat 3.0.

Hopefully, we can get the two remaining spell ideas in the open and actually discuss them so that there is some form of paladin input before the Ivory Tower submits the decision. At the minimum, regardless of the outcome, I feel the guild as a whole has the opportunity to have input and (ideally) that input was received, considered and applied (or disregarded).

I took this as an opportunity to extol the virtues of discussion and debate. Not a personal attack on you Evran, just a convenient way to put forth my desire for discussion.

Madigan

I will absolutely present comments and discussion on the various matters. I thought it may be better to see what the current plan is with regard to those spells. I can draw upon (if it makes sense) the seminal discussion of the original concepts for those two spells, as they were discussed about 1 year ago if need be, but that seems a bit premature...as frankly, the ideas being kicked around may be better...or just plain different.

I encourage you to look introspectively at to your posting habits. Do you bring anything to this table by posting in this thread? My opinion is that you do not and have not, nor do you have an interest except to troll and cause disruption in the discussion. Or, maybe you want to pick a fight with me. If that is your desire, go to conflicts. If you are worth my time, I will join you. If not, well...scream into the wind and hope someone hears you.

Madigan

<<The second was merely suggesting a way to better get your desired discussion started. Your current method of simply asking for one didn't work for you a week or so ago when you asked for a discussion about the upcoming list as a whole either. Kickstarting a discussion with your own ideas has proven to be a better way to get a discussion started, as evidenced by other discussions you've started in the past. Some of them very recently. E.g. the items thread. You're welcome to take or not take the advice at your discretion of course.

Good post Evran. I am still absorbing the list and will pop some feedback after I reflect on it a bit. Overall, the list looks just fine.

Madigan

Oh hi..


This is where I step in and remind you all to address the points of a post, and not the posters. You're derailing discussions by telling someone else how to post.

Let's just stick the topic the Spell List.

Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor

If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.

>>A spell that allowed for shield to be used against DFA offensive spells.

Honestly, I'd rather this be an Endurance skill feat, sorta like how Barbarians will have feats based on Expertise.

>>the ones i see in place are Basic <footman's strike> and esoteric <smite horde>, with nothing really in-between. Unless the intention is to be able to use the analogous spells to learn TM, like we do now with bolt.Hopefully this can be filled in a bit.

Ok, so the deal is that I just stepped into this position. You will notice that the spell list is very similar to what you all already have. There is a reason for that, and it is because I'm jumping in the deep end and charging forward getting Paladins ready for M3.0. At some point in the future, I would like to talk about fleshing out the spell list to include more levels of each type of spell. That said, it most likely won't be done for the M3.0 release.

Once I'm done with getting everything ready for M3.0, we can talk more about new spells (besides the ones that I've already mentioned).

--Absinal

>>Will FTS be compatible with targeting foci? I seem to recall Armifer stating that the idea was that one could not wield a weapon and a targeting focus at the same time, yet this spell requires a weapon, so.... ? I would be totally fine with that spell NOT being compatible with regular targeting foci, and then add something to the Holy Weapon mechanics that cause your holy weapon to break the "weapons can't be targeting foci" rule (even if just for paladin TM spells). That's just my thought, though.

Let me dig into this bit and I'll get back to you.

>>I wouldn't mind seeing one or two "spells" that use the physical stat contests (like barb stuff) as well, just for the sake of flavor.

Start a thread with spell ideas. I can't say they will make it for the M3 release, but I'll have them saved for later.

>>Is hands of justice just going to be an attack on a thief or will it continue to have its current effects such as the anti stealing bonus for the paladin's group?
>>Is Banner of Truce still going to be rechargeable by people other than the caster?

Both of these will work roughly the way they do right now.

<<Banner of Truce:
<<Advanced Utility. Temporarily stops all damage in an area.
>>This sounds different than the current effect, correct? Right now it is a guaranteed and instant AoE Calm effect for the duration if the spell can overcome MR and various contests at the spell onset. I.e offensive actions can't even be attempted.

Ok, so this is just a matter of my shorthand not explaining correctly. BoT will be pretty much the same as it is now.

>>soul

For M3, soul will remain roughly the same as it is now. I do have some ideas for the future, but I'm not going to discuss them now :P

>>I'm really curious about the endurance skill as well. Looking forward to more information on that.

More on endurance and glyphs later :P

--Absinal

>>the ones i see in place are Basic <footman's strike> and esoteric <smite horde>, with nothing really in-between. Unless the intention is to be able to use the analogous spells to learn TM, like we do now with bolt.Hopefully this can be filled in a bit.

>Ok, so the deal is that I just stepped into this position. You will notice that the spell list is very similar to what you all already have. There is a reason for that, and it is because I'm jumping in the deep end and charging forward getting Paladins ready for M3.0. At some point in the future, I would like to talk about fleshing out the spell list to include more levels of each type of spell. That said, it most likely won't be done for the M3.0 release.

Thank you very very much for your response. I am very happy knowing sometime in the future we will be getting a more advanced TM spell.


- Felicini

My thoughts, comments and discussion on the spell list. I did not include spells to which I have no comment.

==Inspiration==

Sentinel's Resolve:
Basic Augmentation. Boosts the parry and shield skills.

Question: Can you confirm there will be no offensive penalty?

Courage:
Advanced Augmentation. Stamina buff for all members of the Paladin's group.

Comment: One of our last standing "signature spells". It would appear this spell should be a candidate for maximum duration.

Soldier's Prayer:
Advanced Warding. Magical damage barrier.

Comment: The spell (as it exists now) is aptly named...for it to work it takes prayer. Since it is "advanced", maybe we can improve the barrier aspect of this spell significantly? I will take something similar to the necro barrier spell.

Banner of Truce:
Advanced Utility. Temporarily stops all damage in an area.

Question: You have similar questions on this spell already out there from other posters. Will this do anything different than the current form of BoT? I am fine with the old version, but the explanation is worded in a way that leads me to believe that it may function differently.

Trothfang's Rally:
Esoteric Utility. Cyclic. Boosts the balance of all members of the Paladin's group. Also has a chance to remove stuns or immobilization effects from group members.

Comment: Really cool enhancement of this spell and (I think) ties in nicely for group combat. By cyclic, do you mean this bad boy will pulse?


==Justice==

Shatter:
Basic Debilitation. Damage amplifier.

Comment: Really nice change to this red-headed step-child. Outstanding improvement.
Question: Self cast...cast on foe...how does this bad boy work?

Hands of Justice:
Basic Utility. Crushes hand of anyone Paladin catches stealing from them.

Comment: Thanks Z.

Tipping the Scales:
Basic Augmentation. Evasion booster.

Comment: Outstanding.

Clarity:
Advanced Augmentation. Wisdom buff. Also increases a paladin's sixth sense for stealthy stuff. Can also put a point effect on the target if it is successful enough. (self cast only)

Comment: Outstanding.

Holy Warrior:
Esoteric Warding. Cyclic. Blesses armaments and provides excellent damage resistance.

Question: Is that damage resistance to equipment? If so, not very excited and surely rates well below other esoteric spells I have seen for other guilds. If it is damage resistance to the person, will it stack on DA?

Smite Horde:
Esoteric Targeted. AoE damage spell.

Comment: I would rather keep the old version with the distance limitation based on the melee weapon.


==Sacrifice==

Crusader's Challenge:
Esoteric Utility. Area effect pulsing taunt.

Comment: CrC did buff MO.
Question: Can we get a buff to "Defense" (I think that is the name of the new armor skill) with this up?

---

Overall:

1. You may consider a "Battery Spell" that was proposed by Redarch after...ohh, SimuCon 2008 or so. In short, the problem is that paladins take a really, really long time to power up. The idea of a Battery Spell would allow (provided sufficient skill) to cast one spell that would quickly put up a few defined spells (i.e. courage, HoW, AS and RW) in return for shorter durations on the suite of spells cast with the one shot.

2. Paladins have a tough time with mana. So, I preferred the approach of fewer buffs spells but more power.

3. I am uncertain whether the Evasion boost and the potential stacking of DA and HoWv3.0 will offset the loss of 60 stance points. It may very well be better, and I think some testing in the Test Instance would help fully understand the impact of this significant change if you have access and are willing to try it out.

Madigan

Damage amplification of Shatter will presumably work like this, if it's the same as Heighten Pain for Necros (which is a sweet spell).

Let's say your total attack power is 10. The Thief you're beating up has an evasion of 5, and a shield of 2, and his armor absorbs 1. 10 - 5 - 2 - 1 = 2 damage total.

Shatter would be the inverse of the new Rutilor's Edge. Whereas RE would make your attack power 11 instead of 10, and then you'd go through the standard defense calcs, Shatter will instead take the final damage of 2 and make it 3 instead. Or something to that effect.

The nice thing about this is that both of them would effectively increase your attack score, but the effects can be stacked because they work differently.
*******
Malkien