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>If you ever need tempting ideas, you can wander through the Crusader class in D3 and DR-ify pretty much any of that, just sayin'<
This. I think this archetype came up a couple years ago when we were discussing potential directions of the guild. This as always been my vision of Paladins, hence why I used to push for the 'Crusader' title 15+ years ago.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
LENNONJON
THAYET
Re: True Dark Paladins
02/22/2016 07:59 PM CST
Smite Horde really should have been a cloud of hammers all along.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
2DUMBARSE
Re: True Dark Paladins
02/23/2016 09:53 AM CST
I like that ability where the Crusader swells up and has significantly increased damage and defense, too. Seems like paladins and paladin-like classes in games usually have some cooldown ability that makes them more powerful for a short duration. Maybe it's a D&D thing.
There's also that neat ability that pulls in everything around you and explodes. DR Soulsplosion. I'd settle for pulling everything around me with no explosion.
There's also that neat ability that pulls in everything around you and explodes. DR Soulsplosion. I'd settle for pulling everything around me with no explosion.
LENNONJON
Re: True Dark Paladins
02/23/2016 10:33 AM CST
>There's also that neat ability that pulls in everything around you and explodes. DR Soulsplosion. I'd settle for pulling everything around me with no explosion.<
I'd like to see a Paladin holy armor glyph like this. Rather than merely deflecting damage, the armor absorbs all damage for a certain period of time and then releases the built-up force of the attacks in as you say, a Soulsplosion.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
I'd like to see a Paladin holy armor glyph like this. Rather than merely deflecting damage, the armor absorbs all damage for a certain period of time and then releases the built-up force of the attacks in as you say, a Soulsplosion.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
SEBESTYEN64
Re: True Dark Paladins
03/01/2016 07:16 PM CST
Late to this. I like the feedback and discussion on this.
What I really like is the D3 Crusader stuff (looked it up as I am not familiar). Awesome stuff.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
What I really like is the D3 Crusader stuff (looked it up as I am not familiar). Awesome stuff.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
SARAGOS
Re: True Dark Paladins
03/05/2016 08:24 PM CST
I've always really liked the idea that the reason the Code is important is because of the strength of the Oath of the Paladin. Making a vow and committing to it, no mater what the hardships, grants its own sort of strength, particularly if it is magically bonded to the soul. I think of fasting, braving thousands of injuries, seeing a barely living person trudging up the hill because he SWORE to bring the message.
This provides a wealth of other sources to draw from for the Paladin. I think of the Oathsworn from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved for this http://arcanaevolved.wikia.com/wiki/Oathsworn as well as schools of thought such as Stoicism or the idealized vision of Bushido that evolved in the Edo period. Death before dereliction of duty. Maybe even an adaptation of the idea that "the soul of a samurai is his sword" into the shield or the armor. The Shield is what allows me to fulfill my vows and protect this mortal flesh while I carry out my duties.
"Bushido is realised in the presence of death. In the case of having to choose between life and death you should choose death. There is no other reasoning. Move on with determination. To say dying without attaining ones aim is a foolish sacrifice of life is the flippant attitude of the sophisticates in the Kamigata area. In such a case it is difficult to make the right judgement. No one longs for death. We can speculate on whatever we like. But if we live without having attaining that aim, we are cowards. This is an important point and the correct path of the Samurai. When we calmly think of death morning and evening and are in despair, We are able to gain freedom in the way of the Samurai. Only then can we fulfill our duty without making mistakes in life." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure
"Let it make no difference to thee whether thou art cold or warm, if thou art doing thy duty; and whether thou art drowsy or satisfied with sleep; and whether ill-spoken of or praised; and whether dying or doing something else. For it is one of the acts of this life, this act by which we die; it is sufficient then in this act also to do well what we have in hand." - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
- Saragos
This provides a wealth of other sources to draw from for the Paladin. I think of the Oathsworn from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved for this http://arcanaevolved.wikia.com/wiki/Oathsworn as well as schools of thought such as Stoicism or the idealized vision of Bushido that evolved in the Edo period. Death before dereliction of duty. Maybe even an adaptation of the idea that "the soul of a samurai is his sword" into the shield or the armor. The Shield is what allows me to fulfill my vows and protect this mortal flesh while I carry out my duties.
"Bushido is realised in the presence of death. In the case of having to choose between life and death you should choose death. There is no other reasoning. Move on with determination. To say dying without attaining ones aim is a foolish sacrifice of life is the flippant attitude of the sophisticates in the Kamigata area. In such a case it is difficult to make the right judgement. No one longs for death. We can speculate on whatever we like. But if we live without having attaining that aim, we are cowards. This is an important point and the correct path of the Samurai. When we calmly think of death morning and evening and are in despair, We are able to gain freedom in the way of the Samurai. Only then can we fulfill our duty without making mistakes in life." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure
"Let it make no difference to thee whether thou art cold or warm, if thou art doing thy duty; and whether thou art drowsy or satisfied with sleep; and whether ill-spoken of or praised; and whether dying or doing something else. For it is one of the acts of this life, this act by which we die; it is sufficient then in this act also to do well what we have in hand." - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
- Saragos
DBABIASH
Re: True Dark Paladins
03/08/2016 04:28 PM CST
>> Everything Saragos said.
I like this stuff a lot. There have been a number of suggestions with positive backing regarding the D3 Crusader, but I feel those are more abilities/mechanics suggestions (which I don't really have an opinion on, I haven't played much D3). I think Saragos has some good guild concept/identity suggestions here. Kind of reminds me of the direction D&D took the Paladin in 5th Edition, being sort of oath focused. Maybe this could be a good direction to take the guild, in order to break away from the Cleric Guild a little bit more. Let them be the very holy/immortal focused guild. Have us be Oath/Soul focused. It probably won't happen, since it would be such a large undertaking, but I'd even support going so far as to taking away our magic and turning it into a supernatural skillset instead, just to make that break from the Clerics even greater.
I like this stuff a lot. There have been a number of suggestions with positive backing regarding the D3 Crusader, but I feel those are more abilities/mechanics suggestions (which I don't really have an opinion on, I haven't played much D3). I think Saragos has some good guild concept/identity suggestions here. Kind of reminds me of the direction D&D took the Paladin in 5th Edition, being sort of oath focused. Maybe this could be a good direction to take the guild, in order to break away from the Cleric Guild a little bit more. Let them be the very holy/immortal focused guild. Have us be Oath/Soul focused. It probably won't happen, since it would be such a large undertaking, but I'd even support going so far as to taking away our magic and turning it into a supernatural skillset instead, just to make that break from the Clerics even greater.
ASHAMAN1
Re: True Dark Paladins
03/09/2016 08:24 AM CST
>>I'd even support going so far as to taking away our magic and turning it into a supernatural skillset instead,
I would be 100% against such. While I'm not over the moon excited about being Tert in MagiRealms, losing access TO the magic system? No sale.
Samsaren
I would be 100% against such. While I'm not over the moon excited about being Tert in MagiRealms, losing access TO the magic system? No sale.
Samsaren
2DUMBARSE
Re: True Dark Paladins
03/09/2016 11:23 AM CST
Same here. I really love shield and like having limited access to the magic system. Those are practical reasons why Paladin stuck with me and Barbarian didn't. It's also why while I love my old thief, I didn't play him much after rolling my current paladin. That said, I wouldn't mind less Paladin magic in favor of more Paladin soul-bilities.
It might be interesting to have an ability or few that can only be used with a gray or black soul taught by players or a non-guild leader NPC, but not sure if/how that fits the current or prospective theme of the guild. I can think of a couple atypically violent, emotionally charged abilities.
It might be interesting to have an ability or few that can only be used with a gray or black soul taught by players or a non-guild leader NPC, but not sure if/how that fits the current or prospective theme of the guild. I can think of a couple atypically violent, emotionally charged abilities.
SARAGOS
Re: True Dark Paladins
03/11/2016 11:59 PM CST
>>I'd even support going so far as to taking away our magic and turning it into a supernatural skillset instead,
Yeah, I agree with the others that this probably isn't the way to go. On the other hand, magic terts need abilities - you can't just give them more spell to fill the gaps they have. IIRC it as stated in the past that magic terts ought to be 70% abilities, 30% spells. Paladins definitely aren't in that category at this point.
One of the ways that I've thought of to solve this problem is to remove one aspect from spells for Rangers and Paladins entirely, and focus on that in a set of abilities. For Rangers, I suggested removing buffs from the realm of spells and folding all buffs into a set of wild-shape / animal affinity abilities. Basically pick a thing that the guild should be particularly good at, and make that a set of abilities so that they don't put a drain on the significantly decreased mana pool.
Obviously I'm not a dev, and I'm not sure exactly what I'd do for Paladins in that regard - I'd have to think about it. But I think there's definitely room for a set of thematically linked supernatural abilities for Paladins while STILL keeping their existing attachments to the magic system.
- Saragos
Yeah, I agree with the others that this probably isn't the way to go. On the other hand, magic terts need abilities - you can't just give them more spell to fill the gaps they have. IIRC it as stated in the past that magic terts ought to be 70% abilities, 30% spells. Paladins definitely aren't in that category at this point.
One of the ways that I've thought of to solve this problem is to remove one aspect from spells for Rangers and Paladins entirely, and focus on that in a set of abilities. For Rangers, I suggested removing buffs from the realm of spells and folding all buffs into a set of wild-shape / animal affinity abilities. Basically pick a thing that the guild should be particularly good at, and make that a set of abilities so that they don't put a drain on the significantly decreased mana pool.
Obviously I'm not a dev, and I'm not sure exactly what I'd do for Paladins in that regard - I'd have to think about it. But I think there's definitely room for a set of thematically linked supernatural abilities for Paladins while STILL keeping their existing attachments to the magic system.
- Saragos
BADGOPHER
Re: True Dark Paladins
03/12/2016 07:53 PM CST
>I'd even support going so far as to taking away our magic and turning it into a supernatural skillset instead,
My conceptual problem with 'use magic like abilities instead of magic' is that the benefits of being on core magic are many, while the benefits of being on custom-magic are...1? That is, you can't dispel them.
Being on core magic offers the use of scrolls, various non-self-activating magic devices, sorcery, an amazing variety of debilitation options, the ability to use non-native magic to boost weaknesses in your spellbook, and so on.
Both barbarians and thieves have to cope with strange resource management systems when you compare IF or concentration to the normal mana balance.
Plus, in theory, spells should be more easily created and maintained than spell-like abilities.
My conceptual problem with 'use magic like abilities instead of magic' is that the benefits of being on core magic are many, while the benefits of being on custom-magic are...1? That is, you can't dispel them.
Being on core magic offers the use of scrolls, various non-self-activating magic devices, sorcery, an amazing variety of debilitation options, the ability to use non-native magic to boost weaknesses in your spellbook, and so on.
Both barbarians and thieves have to cope with strange resource management systems when you compare IF or concentration to the normal mana balance.
Plus, in theory, spells should be more easily created and maintained than spell-like abilities.
GABRIEL4
Re: True Dark Paladins
03/12/2016 08:20 PM CST
<<while the benefits of being on custom-magic are...1? That is, you can't dispel them.
Another is that your buffs are always at your personal cap so resource management only comes down to which buffs you can use. Magic users have to balance which buffs they can use along with whether or not they can use them at personal cap. This is more noticeable for MUs at low to mid circle, and most especially for terts and secondaries even into the mid to high range.
Another is that your buffs are always at your personal cap so resource management only comes down to which buffs you can use. Magic users have to balance which buffs they can use along with whether or not they can use them at personal cap. This is more noticeable for MUs at low to mid circle, and most especially for terts and secondaries even into the mid to high range.
ASHAMAN1
Re: True Dark Paladins
03/13/2016 08:23 AM CDT
>>Magic users have to balance which buffs they can use along with whether or not they can use them at personal cap.
With utilization of cambrinth and forethought I've never found this to actually be a big drawback. ESPECIALLY in 3.x where terts saw a huge increase in available mana via the attunement recovery change.
Samsaren
With utilization of cambrinth and forethought I've never found this to actually be a big drawback. ESPECIALLY in 3.x where terts saw a huge increase in available mana via the attunement recovery change.
Samsaren
BADGOPHER
Re: True Dark Paladins
03/13/2016 08:55 AM CDT
>Magic users have to balance which buffs they can use along with whether or not they can use them at personal cap.
Ha, with Raesh's updates in test, it looks like this might be easing a bit too!
Ha, with Raesh's updates in test, it looks like this might be easing a bit too!
