Effectively the idea is toning down the actual effect of holy weapon, increasing its viability and making it behave more as a meta effect in combination with our other powers. There would be no more choosing of a holy weapon or having to replace it.
Glyph of the Crusader (Received at 50th, following the Holy Weapon Quest).
Use: When used the Paladin draws the rune of the Crusader. His held right hand weapon is bathed in a glow (messaging based off soul state, from a dark haze to a blinding glow). Duration is based off maximum Soul Pool (not current). Most paladins at 50th should expect about ten minutes of effect.
Cost: The soul pool cost of this Glyph is rather significant, about three times a Holy Mana glyph and can tap a Paladins Soul Pool rather quickly. The use of a Shrine or Icon will reduce the soul pool cost for the next hour (shrines reducing the cost by about half, with icons reducing the cost by about 30%. These effects are cumulative but not additive (both effects will reduce cost by about 60%).
RP: The soul of the Paladins righteousness manifests within their blade, causing it to tremble with terrible fever and zeal. The holy weapon effect functions with thrown weapons normally despite being applied to the weapon.
Terminology: I use words like mild and moderate. Here is my scale of loose terms
Minor<Mild<Moderate<Good<Great
Effects: On its own, the Glyph of the Crusader causes the paladins attacks to receive a small bonus to attack and damage rolls, scaling with charisma and soul state. In addition targets killed by the weapon cause a small replenishment of the Paladins soul pool. This is minor for most targets and mild for evil targets.
Goal: The idea here is that you cannot walk around with your holy weapon in use at all times. This is effective a short duration buff that effects magical attacks of the paladin. Given the paladins magic tert this seems a good place to balance the effect, upping the potency of a resource that paladins cannot 'sling' around freely. It also gives us an established system to govern the potency of this power, and counter effects to it (i.e this isnt a unique system we live within that ignores other systems and there for leads to power creep).
Meta Effects:
Banner of Truce: This spells normal effect is disabled while the glyph is in effect. Instead it becomes the Banner of Battle. This power increases the offense of ALL targets in the room, including creatures, but causes a penalty to offense for any evil targets (resistance. Debilitation effect).
Footman's Strike: Increased accuracy(moderate), added secondary fire damage(moderate).
Smite Horde*: Target struck by Smite Horde receive a penalty to their non shield armor skills for a period of time. Each bolt applies a mild effect but stack with each other to a cap. The duration of this secondary effect is relatively small (less than a minute) and does not stack in duration (new duration replaces old).
Truffenyi's Rally: Pulses also unbalance foes at melee range with the Paladin(but not party members). Good effectiveness. .This is a debilitation effect/contest.
Holy Warrior: Applies effect to the party. Increases strength of stun based off remaining health (from mild to great depending on remaining health if its the paladin or party member (paladins receive a smaller benefit)). Adversely effects partied necromancers.
Rutilor's Edge: Adds a mild amount of electrical and fire damage to the weapon(inferior to ignite). This is increased substantially against creatures of darkness (comparable to ignite).
Aspirant's Aegis: Increased effectiveness vs elemental damage (moderate)
Shatter: Targets without shields instead receive a wracking pain across their body (evasion penalty)(good).
Hands of Justice: Causes the target to be wrapped in chains of ethereal energy, causing a penalty to retreat and flee commands for a period of time. With great success this will pull a target closer to the Paladin.
*Add the ability for Smite Horde to be focused on a single target.
REWYN
VOLCANUS
Re: Holy Weapons: A suggestion (not a rant!)
02/04/2013 11:58 AM CST
I really like your ideas, but I think they make more sense as actual glyphs that are tied into the endurance skill.
Personally, I'd rather keep the holy weapon as a sword of importance. Turn it into a secondary enchant that you can add to a weapon. Invoke soul to light your weapon ablaze. There's an activation cost and a small passive drain to your soul while it's up. It now deals spirit damage in addition to normal hits and counts as blessed. Killing undead/cursed/socially corrupt with your weapon ablaze will give you a small soul boost to counteract this drain. Critical hits apply a brief curse to strength, Stamina, and charisma with a divine message from Chadatru.
There would be a few fluff verbs such as wield, grip, wave. And it would have a constant glow when not in use.
And, just for fun, if an actual cleric blesses it (or somehow the bless spell was used on it) then the spirit damage would transfer to you as minor vitality, fatigue, or spirit healing. Not enough to make it overpowered, but enough to add flavor.
The weapon is fueled directly by your soul, so no more charges or refilling required beyond general soul maintenance.
Smite with a holy weapon always activates it's abilities.
If all of this is too powerful, as I suspect it may be, then just tie the holy weapons abilities directly into smite as a massive boost in power or a curse/additional vitality hit/DFA attack in addition to the normal damage.
Personally, I'd rather keep the holy weapon as a sword of importance. Turn it into a secondary enchant that you can add to a weapon. Invoke soul to light your weapon ablaze. There's an activation cost and a small passive drain to your soul while it's up. It now deals spirit damage in addition to normal hits and counts as blessed. Killing undead/cursed/socially corrupt with your weapon ablaze will give you a small soul boost to counteract this drain. Critical hits apply a brief curse to strength, Stamina, and charisma with a divine message from Chadatru.
There would be a few fluff verbs such as wield, grip, wave. And it would have a constant glow when not in use.
And, just for fun, if an actual cleric blesses it (or somehow the bless spell was used on it) then the spirit damage would transfer to you as minor vitality, fatigue, or spirit healing. Not enough to make it overpowered, but enough to add flavor.
The weapon is fueled directly by your soul, so no more charges or refilling required beyond general soul maintenance.
Smite with a holy weapon always activates it's abilities.
If all of this is too powerful, as I suspect it may be, then just tie the holy weapons abilities directly into smite as a massive boost in power or a curse/additional vitality hit/DFA attack in addition to the normal damage.
REWYN
Re: Holy Weapons: A suggestion (not a rant!)
02/04/2013 12:10 PM CST
That would be pretty neat. As a quick clarification though, Paladins can bless their own weapons now (Holy Warrior). I would be fine if we could self activate the passive you are talking about for vitality damage, and going the route of making it a more self contained 'awesome' power would be just fine with me. Basically I figure it can be balanced one of two ways, with yours underlying the alternative (and current) method which is to make it awesome in and off itself. The alternative is for it to effect our other options.
Your method would be far easier to code (no doubt).
It would also be very nice if maybe (and this might be going far) if the weapon in question could be dedicated to the positive aspect of any of the gods (by visiting a shrine) to exchange one added aspect of the blade to another. I really would like the idea of Paladins being the warriors of the gods pushed a bit more with our supporting systems since by and large they tend to focus single mindedly on a very small sect of gods).
This adds quite a bit of complexity to the system however, and I guess I would prefer the best option for making the system viable without adding to much to the plate since the GM's have a ton to do. I feel your solution better addresses that than mine did.
Kudos:)
Your method would be far easier to code (no doubt).
It would also be very nice if maybe (and this might be going far) if the weapon in question could be dedicated to the positive aspect of any of the gods (by visiting a shrine) to exchange one added aspect of the blade to another. I really would like the idea of Paladins being the warriors of the gods pushed a bit more with our supporting systems since by and large they tend to focus single mindedly on a very small sect of gods).
This adds quite a bit of complexity to the system however, and I guess I would prefer the best option for making the system viable without adding to much to the plate since the GM's have a ton to do. I feel your solution better addresses that than mine did.
Kudos:)
NEELD
Re: Holy Weapons: A suggestion (not a rant!)
02/04/2013 12:33 PM CST
Unless something changed with 3.0, holy weapons are fine as is except for the recharge PITA IMO. Make ICONS more available and that goes away.
What is the perceived problem from others point of view?
Madigan
What is the perceived problem from others point of view?
Madigan
REWYN
Re: Holy Weapons: A suggestion (not a rant!)
02/04/2013 01:47 PM CST
To list my issues with it
1) Can only change a weapon once a year. If its lost for whatever reason, you are SOL and can never have a holy weapon again, since establishing a new one requires the destruction of the old one.
2) A main benefit of Holy Weapons were they had Bless charges. Paladins can now bless at will with HoW, making this by and large not as useful of an ability and was a main reason the ability likely had 'charges' to coincide with how bless functions.
3) If a holy weapon goes out of charges for whatever reason, you need two hours of NOT using the weapon before it functions again (requires 2 charges at shrines (icons dont wrk for this it seems) at an hour cooldown each, any use during this time causes it to reset).
So presuming you could fix options 1 through 3, you are left with a weapon that has some type of passive to hit/damage bonus, although I dont know what the power level on this is (could be very minor, given the big 'wow' of the weapon was originally it was blessed and had special messaging).
If Icons were made dime a dozen or otherwise easier to access that would be a bandaid but I feel the system underneath it is still a gash. Remember this was for Paladins was our defining power, our original cap stone and the culmination of our quest system. I guess something cooler than a passive to hit/damage bonus would be more interesting (like Volcanus post) would be swell.
As to 3.0, the effect of accuracy is generally reduced for damage. This was a huge issue initially with SMITE which in 2.0 was mostly an accuracy bonus, and because of the changes in 3.0 initially did very little. Kodius was super awesome and made changes to make the ability actually feel tactically useful. Since I THINK the current bonus to holy weapons is mostly in their accuracy (i have no way to verify this) that might be some consideration. If true, then even if you fix items 1-3 , we basically are left with a weapon with a tiny to hit bonus that requires maintenance and provides a secondary effect we can otherwise replicate at will with a common cyclical for any 50th circle paladin.
1) Can only change a weapon once a year. If its lost for whatever reason, you are SOL and can never have a holy weapon again, since establishing a new one requires the destruction of the old one.
2) A main benefit of Holy Weapons were they had Bless charges. Paladins can now bless at will with HoW, making this by and large not as useful of an ability and was a main reason the ability likely had 'charges' to coincide with how bless functions.
3) If a holy weapon goes out of charges for whatever reason, you need two hours of NOT using the weapon before it functions again (requires 2 charges at shrines (icons dont wrk for this it seems) at an hour cooldown each, any use during this time causes it to reset).
So presuming you could fix options 1 through 3, you are left with a weapon that has some type of passive to hit/damage bonus, although I dont know what the power level on this is (could be very minor, given the big 'wow' of the weapon was originally it was blessed and had special messaging).
If Icons were made dime a dozen or otherwise easier to access that would be a bandaid but I feel the system underneath it is still a gash. Remember this was for Paladins was our defining power, our original cap stone and the culmination of our quest system. I guess something cooler than a passive to hit/damage bonus would be more interesting (like Volcanus post) would be swell.
As to 3.0, the effect of accuracy is generally reduced for damage. This was a huge issue initially with SMITE which in 2.0 was mostly an accuracy bonus, and because of the changes in 3.0 initially did very little. Kodius was super awesome and made changes to make the ability actually feel tactically useful. Since I THINK the current bonus to holy weapons is mostly in their accuracy (i have no way to verify this) that might be some consideration. If true, then even if you fix items 1-3 , we basically are left with a weapon with a tiny to hit bonus that requires maintenance and provides a secondary effect we can otherwise replicate at will with a common cyclical for any 50th circle paladin.
ISHARON
Re: Holy Weapons: A suggestion (not a rant!)
02/04/2013 01:51 PM CST
>>Neeld: Unless something changed with 3.0, holy weapons are fine as is except for the recharge PITA IMO. Make ICONS more available and that goes away. What is the perceived problem from others point of view?
I would also remove the penalty for letting your holy weapon run out of charges. Currently, if you allow the weapon to run out of charges, it has to be recharged twice before you can use it again. It takes five minutes to recharge the weapon, and there is a one-hour timer between rechargings. If you make the mistake of using the weapon between those two rechargings, you have to start over. I think that holy weapons should only require one recharging before being fully functional. Holy weapons that have run out of charges would continue to function as standard weapons until they are recharged.
I also think that the holy weapon changing quest (which can be done once every 365 days) should not destroy the previous weapon. This would allow Paladins to use special weapons without worrying about losing them if they decide to change their holy weapons later.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
I would also remove the penalty for letting your holy weapon run out of charges. Currently, if you allow the weapon to run out of charges, it has to be recharged twice before you can use it again. It takes five minutes to recharge the weapon, and there is a one-hour timer between rechargings. If you make the mistake of using the weapon between those two rechargings, you have to start over. I think that holy weapons should only require one recharging before being fully functional. Holy weapons that have run out of charges would continue to function as standard weapons until they are recharged.
I also think that the holy weapon changing quest (which can be done once every 365 days) should not destroy the previous weapon. This would allow Paladins to use special weapons without worrying about losing them if they decide to change their holy weapons later.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
NEELD
Re: Holy Weapons: A suggestion (not a rant!)
02/04/2013 04:13 PM CST
To list my issues with it
1) Can only change a weapon once a year. If its lost for whatever reason, you are SOL and can never have a holy weapon again, since establishing a new one requires the destruction of the old one.
2) A main benefit of Holy Weapons were they had Bless charges. Paladins can now bless at will with HoW, making this by and large not as useful of an ability and was a main reason the ability likely had 'charges' to coincide with how bless functions.
3) If a holy weapon goes out of charges for whatever reason, you need two hours of NOT using the weapon before it functions again (requires 2 charges at shrines (icons dont wrk for this it seems) at an hour cooldown each, any use during this time causes it to reset).
About the only thing that bugs me on that list is #3, just my opinion. Holy weapons are very powerful and great in a PvP situation and downright devastating vs. undead. I didn't get one until I was 150th circle because of the re-charging PITA FYI, so I am no HW fanboy in that area (i.e. recharging). If you want something powerful, you need some serious downside. I view #1 as the biggest downside.
I would also add that it is almost impossible to get an alteration on a HW.
Madigan
1) Can only change a weapon once a year. If its lost for whatever reason, you are SOL and can never have a holy weapon again, since establishing a new one requires the destruction of the old one.
2) A main benefit of Holy Weapons were they had Bless charges. Paladins can now bless at will with HoW, making this by and large not as useful of an ability and was a main reason the ability likely had 'charges' to coincide with how bless functions.
3) If a holy weapon goes out of charges for whatever reason, you need two hours of NOT using the weapon before it functions again (requires 2 charges at shrines (icons dont wrk for this it seems) at an hour cooldown each, any use during this time causes it to reset).
About the only thing that bugs me on that list is #3, just my opinion. Holy weapons are very powerful and great in a PvP situation and downright devastating vs. undead. I didn't get one until I was 150th circle because of the re-charging PITA FYI, so I am no HW fanboy in that area (i.e. recharging). If you want something powerful, you need some serious downside. I view #1 as the biggest downside.
I would also add that it is almost impossible to get an alteration on a HW.
Madigan
SULLIVANS3
Re: Holy Weapons: A suggestion (not a rant!)
02/04/2013 04:25 PM CST
I had mine altered prior to making it my holy weapon, but that still sort of goes back to #1. That's really my biggest issue with the current system, the destruction of the original weapon if you decided to change your HW to something new. I'll never take advantage of that change because of that.
I don't find the charging locations to be too incredibly hindering with one on the islands, one in Crossing and one in Shard. I do hate the need to charge it twice when it gets too low, only because of the longish timer in between.
Basically I agree with Madigan and Isharon.
~Katt
A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Holy Weapons: A suggestion (not a rant!)
02/04/2013 04:52 PM CST
>>If you want something powerful, you need some serious downside.
For what it's worth, I believe the "it has to have serious downsides in order to be powerful" mindset went out the window at the same time as "it has to be seriously powerful to have downsides" mindset.
Something can have serious downsides without being notably powerful (see: spells that cause Divine Outrage, Teleological spells, etc) while other things can be powerful without having serious downsides (see: rare crafting materials).
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
For what it's worth, I believe the "it has to have serious downsides in order to be powerful" mindset went out the window at the same time as "it has to be seriously powerful to have downsides" mindset.
Something can have serious downsides without being notably powerful (see: spells that cause Divine Outrage, Teleological spells, etc) while other things can be powerful without having serious downsides (see: rare crafting materials).
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
NEELD
Re: Holy Weapons: A suggestion (not a rant!)
02/04/2013 06:23 PM CST
PB - Good point. Hey, I am cool with any requested change that helps.
Madigan
Madigan
2DUMBARSE
Re: Holy Weapons: A suggestion (not a rant!)
02/05/2013 12:29 AM CST
>If its lost for whatever reason, you are SOL and can never have a holy weapon again, since establishing a new one requires the destruction of the old one.
I agree with this point, particularly the part about destruction of the old weapon. I'd love to make a quest, rare metal or altered weapon a holy weapon but fear doing so because I wouldn't want to lose it. I don't mind the lengthy timer on swapping holy weapons, though. It needs some significant draw back to add value to the decision.
>A main benefit of Holy Weapons were they had Bless charges. Paladins can now bless at will with HoW, making this by and large not as useful of an ability and was a main reason the ability likely had 'charges' to coincide with how bless functions.
I disagree with this one. Holy weapons are more than just blessed weapons and I feel they're sufficiently potent. That said, I'd love it if there were perks to using them more often even if the perks were merely fluff.
>If a holy weapon goes out of charges for whatever reason, you need two hours of NOT using the weapon before it functions again (requires 2 charges at shrines (icons dont wrk for this it seems) at an hour cooldown each, any use during this time causes it to reset).
Like others have said, I think this is really only an issue for people who spend a lot of time far from recharge altars. The proposed solutions -- more recharge altars, more accessible icons, etc. -- would solve it.
I agree with this point, particularly the part about destruction of the old weapon. I'd love to make a quest, rare metal or altered weapon a holy weapon but fear doing so because I wouldn't want to lose it. I don't mind the lengthy timer on swapping holy weapons, though. It needs some significant draw back to add value to the decision.
>A main benefit of Holy Weapons were they had Bless charges. Paladins can now bless at will with HoW, making this by and large not as useful of an ability and was a main reason the ability likely had 'charges' to coincide with how bless functions.
I disagree with this one. Holy weapons are more than just blessed weapons and I feel they're sufficiently potent. That said, I'd love it if there were perks to using them more often even if the perks were merely fluff.
>If a holy weapon goes out of charges for whatever reason, you need two hours of NOT using the weapon before it functions again (requires 2 charges at shrines (icons dont wrk for this it seems) at an hour cooldown each, any use during this time causes it to reset).
Like others have said, I think this is really only an issue for people who spend a lot of time far from recharge altars. The proposed solutions -- more recharge altars, more accessible icons, etc. -- would solve it.
