For the Paladin titles, is it assumed that when there is a specific shield requirement, that shield is not eligible for the highest/second highest/etc slot in the requirement?
I ask because it seems like I should be eligible for the Master of Defense title if my shield ranks could could for both the primary armor and shield reqs
-Landros
CHRISTIANSONK3
CASTLEB
Re: Title reqs
01/25/2009 10:27 AM CST
Hey Maece,
Speaking of titles, is there anyway we could know what the specific title requirements are or are they top secret like the X-Files? The suspension is killing me. :) Thanks!
~Silus
Smite first, ask questions later.
Speaking of titles, is there anyway we could know what the specific title requirements are or are they top secret like the X-Files? The suspension is killing me. :) Thanks!
~Silus
Smite first, ask questions later.
JMF90
Re: Title reqs
01/26/2009 07:37 PM CST
>I ask because it seems like I should be eligible for the Master of Defense title if my shield ranks could could for both the primary armor and shield reqs
No, highest armor requirements don't count the shield skill. Similarly, they don't count the parry skill either.
No, highest armor requirements don't count the shield skill. Similarly, they don't count the parry skill either.
CHRISTIANSONK3
Re: Title reqs
01/26/2009 07:52 PM CST
>>No, highest armor requirements don't count the shield skill. Similarly, they don't count the parry skill either.
Well, parry isn't really an armor. Also, this isn't correct because if shield wasn't counted towards the 'highest armor' then I wouldn't have the vindicator title, as the only armor that I have above 525 ranks is shield.
-Landros
Well, parry isn't really an armor. Also, this isn't correct because if shield wasn't counted towards the 'highest armor' then I wouldn't have the vindicator title, as the only armor that I have above 525 ranks is shield.
-Landros
JMF90
Re: Title reqs
01/26/2009 08:56 PM CST
Some titles have a highest worn armor requirement, some don't.
CHRISTIANSONK3
Re: Title reqs
01/26/2009 09:31 PM CST
Like which ones? I dont see the word 'worn' anywhere on the Paladin title page, also you can(and I do) wear my shield.
-Landros
-Landros
JMF90
Re: Title reqs
01/26/2009 09:37 PM CST
>Like which ones? I dont see the word 'worn' anywhere on the Paladin title page
I haven't looked closely at the paladin titles, but check out the shield category for some examples.
>also you can(and I do) wear my shield.
That isn't the same thing and I think you realize why. Shields don't reduce damage...
I haven't looked closely at the paladin titles, but check out the shield category for some examples.
>also you can(and I do) wear my shield.
That isn't the same thing and I think you realize why. Shields don't reduce damage...
CHRISTIANSONK3
Re: Title reqs
01/26/2009 10:25 PM CST
>>I haven't looked closely at the paladin titles, but check out the shield category for some examples.
I see no 'worn' description there either.
>>That isn't the same thing and I think you realize why. Shields don't reduce damage...
Sure they do, in the same way evasion, parry, and heavy plate ranks do. But that isn't what makes it an armor (obviously, otherwise evasion and parry would be armor too).
I think i'm being reasonable here. You started off by saying that Shield ranks don't count for highest armor, which was wrong because otherwise I wouldn't have the Vindicator title, then you went on to say that some titles have the highest 'worn' armor requirement, which firstly I dont see listed anywhere on either the Paladin title page or anywhere on the combat title page, and secondly like I said you still WEAR shields(if you choose), and now you are talking about how shields dont reduce damage. Without getting into the debate about where shield skill gets calculated to reduce incomimg damage(because I think you realize that shields DO reduce damage in the same way evasion, parry, and 'armor' does), the question that I come to is, how do you classify what is 'armor' in the 'am I eligible for this title' sense of the word?
Well, going off what titles I have, and thier reqs, the only reasonable conclusion that I can come to is that anything that is listed under EXP ARMOR would be considered an 'armor' (I dont think that is too tough of a pill to swallow). Also it seems reasonable to expect that a single armor skill can satisfy multiple title requirements, if the requirements are something like 'over 450 ranks in shield' and 'over 500 ranks in highest armor'.
On the other hand, if the intent of the title requirements are such that any time there is a specific shield requirement then all additional armor requirements cannot be satisfied by shield ranks, I really have no problem with that, I just haven't seen anything that explicitly says that.
-Landros
I see no 'worn' description there either.
>>That isn't the same thing and I think you realize why. Shields don't reduce damage...
Sure they do, in the same way evasion, parry, and heavy plate ranks do. But that isn't what makes it an armor (obviously, otherwise evasion and parry would be armor too).
I think i'm being reasonable here. You started off by saying that Shield ranks don't count for highest armor, which was wrong because otherwise I wouldn't have the Vindicator title, then you went on to say that some titles have the highest 'worn' armor requirement, which firstly I dont see listed anywhere on either the Paladin title page or anywhere on the combat title page, and secondly like I said you still WEAR shields(if you choose), and now you are talking about how shields dont reduce damage. Without getting into the debate about where shield skill gets calculated to reduce incomimg damage(because I think you realize that shields DO reduce damage in the same way evasion, parry, and 'armor' does), the question that I come to is, how do you classify what is 'armor' in the 'am I eligible for this title' sense of the word?
Well, going off what titles I have, and thier reqs, the only reasonable conclusion that I can come to is that anything that is listed under EXP ARMOR would be considered an 'armor' (I dont think that is too tough of a pill to swallow). Also it seems reasonable to expect that a single armor skill can satisfy multiple title requirements, if the requirements are something like 'over 450 ranks in shield' and 'over 500 ranks in highest armor'.
On the other hand, if the intent of the title requirements are such that any time there is a specific shield requirement then all additional armor requirements cannot be satisfied by shield ranks, I really have no problem with that, I just haven't seen anything that explicitly says that.
-Landros
LUCKYSEVENS
Re: Title reqs
01/26/2009 11:59 PM CST
>>the question that I come to is, how do you classify what is 'armor' in the 'am I eligible for this title' sense of the word?
Unfortunately, it just 'depends'. The requirements are not stated consistently across all title groups/releases.
>>On the other hand, if the intent of the title requirements are such that any time there is a specific shield requirement then all additional armor requirements cannot be satisfied by shield ranks, I really have no problem with that, I just haven't seen anything that explicitly says that.
Here is an example of a Worn Armor-specific requirement from the Weapons category:
Show Fighter
At least 260 in Total Weapon (not incl. Parry/MO)
At least 140 in Total Worn-Armor
At least 20 in Stamina
At least 75 in Evasion
At least 75 in Parry Ability
Here is an example of a Shield and worn-armor requirement from the Shield category:
Shield Warden
At least 500 ranks in Shield Usage
At least 450 ranks in Parry Ability
At least 550 ranks in Highest Armor skill
At least 350 ranks in Multiple Engaged Opponent
It does not specifically state that 'Highest Armor skill' must be worn-armor, but it carries the requirement regardless (and I can verify this in game currently).
Just because shields can be WORN does not mean they should satisfy "Worn-Armor" skill requirements.
GENT
Unfortunately, it just 'depends'. The requirements are not stated consistently across all title groups/releases.
>>On the other hand, if the intent of the title requirements are such that any time there is a specific shield requirement then all additional armor requirements cannot be satisfied by shield ranks, I really have no problem with that, I just haven't seen anything that explicitly says that.
Here is an example of a Worn Armor-specific requirement from the Weapons category:
Show Fighter
At least 260 in Total Weapon (not incl. Parry/MO)
At least 140 in Total Worn-Armor
At least 20 in Stamina
At least 75 in Evasion
At least 75 in Parry Ability
Here is an example of a Shield and worn-armor requirement from the Shield category:
Shield Warden
At least 500 ranks in Shield Usage
At least 450 ranks in Parry Ability
At least 550 ranks in Highest Armor skill
At least 350 ranks in Multiple Engaged Opponent
It does not specifically state that 'Highest Armor skill' must be worn-armor, but it carries the requirement regardless (and I can verify this in game currently).
Just because shields can be WORN does not mean they should satisfy "Worn-Armor" skill requirements.
GENT
JMF90
Re: Title reqs
01/27/2009 12:42 AM CST
>Without getting into the debate about where shield skill gets calculated to reduce incomimg damage(because I think you realize that shields DO reduce damage in the same way evasion, parry, and 'armor' does), the question that I come to is, how do you classify what is 'armor' in the 'am I eligible for this title' sense of the word?
Actually, you're wrong. Shield and parry skill does absolutely zero to reduce damage if you don't completely block the attack. I know the messaging indicates otherwise.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure that I'm right about the shield vs armor for title requirements, as they held me back from getting titles in the shield category before, but I submit that it could be different for paladin specific titles. I just doubt it.
Actually, you're wrong. Shield and parry skill does absolutely zero to reduce damage if you don't completely block the attack. I know the messaging indicates otherwise.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure that I'm right about the shield vs armor for title requirements, as they held me back from getting titles in the shield category before, but I submit that it could be different for paladin specific titles. I just doubt it.
DR-WYTHOR
Re: Title reqs
01/27/2009 01:09 AM CST
>>Actually, you're wrong. Shield and parry skill does absolutely zero to reduce damage if you don't completely block the attack. I know the messaging indicates otherwise.
I don't know much about the normal combat system, but in the TM system shields don't work the way you describe. The method of damage reduction is somewhat different from Evasion calcs (to keep things interesting) but in the end you can deflect part of the spell with your shield and you do take less damage.
- GM Wythor
What goes up
is futile --
unless it goes out
I don't know much about the normal combat system, but in the TM system shields don't work the way you describe. The method of damage reduction is somewhat different from Evasion calcs (to keep things interesting) but in the end you can deflect part of the spell with your shield and you do take less damage.
- GM Wythor
What goes up
is futile --
unless it goes out
JMF90
Re: Title reqs
01/27/2009 04:58 AM CST
>I don't know much about the normal combat system, but in the TM system shields don't work the way you describe. The method of damage reduction is somewhat different from Evasion calcs (to keep things interesting) but in the end you can deflect part of the spell with your shield and you do take less damage.
Well, that was my impression based on GM posts as well as tests we did in TF using ranged weapons. Never tested magic though.
Well, that was my impression based on GM posts as well as tests we did in TF using ranged weapons. Never tested magic though.
NEELD
Re: Title reqs
01/27/2009 10:56 AM CST
<<The method of damage reduction is somewhat different from Evasion calcs (to keep things interesting) but in the end you can deflect part of the spell with your shield and you do take less damage.
Interesting. We tested shields vs. ranged, and not only does it not reduce damage, damage actually increased if you received the "partial block" message. Of course, we could be all wet on the testing as the offensive numbers (as we know) are so big we may not have accurate conclusions.
I think I will grab a warrior mage and give it a few runs.
Madigan
When soldiers have been baptized in the fire of a battle-field, they have all one rank in my eyes.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Interesting. We tested shields vs. ranged, and not only does it not reduce damage, damage actually increased if you received the "partial block" message. Of course, we could be all wet on the testing as the offensive numbers (as we know) are so big we may not have accurate conclusions.
I think I will grab a warrior mage and give it a few runs.
Madigan
When soldiers have been baptized in the fire of a battle-field, they have all one rank in my eyes.
Napoleon Bonaparte
CHRISTIANSONK3
Re: Title reqs
01/27/2009 04:44 PM CST
>>Actually, you're wrong. Shield and parry skill does absolutely zero to reduce damage if you don't completely block the attack. I know the messaging indicates otherwise.
Really? I had no idea it was like this. All of the discussion I've read was something like...
First, evasion gets contested, and overall incoming damage is reduced based off evasion ranks
Second, Shield and/or Parry get contested, and remaining incoming damage is reduced based off of the corresponding ranks
Third, overall armor stuff(I say stuff because its more complicated than I really understand) is calculated and the remaining incoming damage is reduced by your armor.... stuff.
So instead of that second line, what it really is, is just a simple pass/fail check, where if you fail you basically have 0 ranks of shield/parry(for that specific attack)?
I'm not saying your wrong, it's just a pretty big departure from the assumption I was operating off of.
Anyone else care to agree/disagree with what me or JMF90 have said?
-Landros
Really? I had no idea it was like this. All of the discussion I've read was something like...
First, evasion gets contested, and overall incoming damage is reduced based off evasion ranks
Second, Shield and/or Parry get contested, and remaining incoming damage is reduced based off of the corresponding ranks
Third, overall armor stuff(I say stuff because its more complicated than I really understand) is calculated and the remaining incoming damage is reduced by your armor.... stuff.
So instead of that second line, what it really is, is just a simple pass/fail check, where if you fail you basically have 0 ranks of shield/parry(for that specific attack)?
I'm not saying your wrong, it's just a pretty big departure from the assumption I was operating off of.
Anyone else care to agree/disagree with what me or JMF90 have said?
-Landros
JMF90
Re: Title reqs
01/28/2009 01:58 PM CST
>Interesting. We tested shields vs. ranged, and not only does it not reduce damage, damage actually increased if you received the "partial block" message. Of course, we could be all wet on the testing as the offensive numbers (as we know) are so big we may not have accurate conclusions.
It isn't so much that the partial block increased damage. Just that effective evasion is lower when you have a shield out, so evasion absorbs less of the damage. I guess the net effect is the same though.
I just did a quick test of melee weapon vs shield. I eliminated all variables such as balance/injuries/last maneuver.
Using evasion + shield, the average power of hit that landed was 6.4. Stancing shield to 0 gave an average hit power of 7.0. Stancing shield back up and putting evasion to 0, the average hit was well over 11 because every limb shot was a capped limb shot. So while the damage reduction of evasion is quite noticeable, it is hard to say if shield reduced damage at all beyond the random factor.
I could run the test for longer, but I'm quite bored, and I really need my own empath, which I current have inactive.
It isn't so much that the partial block increased damage. Just that effective evasion is lower when you have a shield out, so evasion absorbs less of the damage. I guess the net effect is the same though.
I just did a quick test of melee weapon vs shield. I eliminated all variables such as balance/injuries/last maneuver.
Using evasion + shield, the average power of hit that landed was 6.4. Stancing shield to 0 gave an average hit power of 7.0. Stancing shield back up and putting evasion to 0, the average hit was well over 11 because every limb shot was a capped limb shot. So while the damage reduction of evasion is quite noticeable, it is hard to say if shield reduced damage at all beyond the random factor.
I could run the test for longer, but I'm quite bored, and I really need my own empath, which I current have inactive.
NEELD
Re: Title reqs
01/28/2009 05:15 PM CST
JMF: I know it seems weird (and there was a lengthy thread in weapons folder concerning this issue) but the tests showed harder hits with a partial block of a ranged weapon.
Would love to see any results you may have concerning the above situation.
Madigan
When soldiers have been baptized in the fire of a battle-field, they have all one rank in my eyes.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Would love to see any results you may have concerning the above situation.
Madigan
When soldiers have been baptized in the fire of a battle-field, they have all one rank in my eyes.
Napoleon Bonaparte
JMF90
Re: Title reqs
01/28/2009 05:54 PM CST
I'm pretty sure that was the reason, Madigan. I did some testing with George awhile back and reached the same conclusion.
CHRISTIANSONK3
Re: Title reqs
02/03/2009 03:05 PM CST
>>Actually, you're wrong
Not according to the most recent Oolan posts in the combat folders. I noticed you were posting there too so I just figured i'd take the opportunity to pat myself on the back.
-Landros
Not according to the most recent Oolan posts in the combat folders. I noticed you were posting there too so I just figured i'd take the opportunity to pat myself on the back.
-Landros
JMF90
Re: Title reqs
02/03/2009 03:26 PM CST
>Not according to the most recent Oolan posts in the combat folders. I noticed you were posting there too so I just figured i'd take the opportunity to pat myself on the back.
I remain skeptical, since the effect isn't actually noticeable in my testing.
I remain skeptical, since the effect isn't actually noticeable in my testing.
MOD-IKRIA
Re: Title reqs
02/05/2009 12:31 PM CST
Okay guys,
This is the TITLE SUGGESTION folder, not a debate folder. Posts your comments in the correct folder else you are going to make me move them.
Thanks
Ikria
Please feel free to contact me (Mod-Ikria@play.net), Senior Board Monitor Annwyl (DR-Annwyl@play.net), or GM Cecco (DR-Cecco@play.net).
"Either write things worth reading,
Or do things worth the writing."
--Benjamin Franklin
This is the TITLE SUGGESTION folder, not a debate folder. Posts your comments in the correct folder else you are going to make me move them.
Thanks
Ikria
Please feel free to contact me (Mod-Ikria@play.net), Senior Board Monitor Annwyl (DR-Annwyl@play.net), or GM Cecco (DR-Cecco@play.net).
"Either write things worth reading,
Or do things worth the writing."
--Benjamin Franklin
TINCAN
Re: Title reqs
05/04/2009 10:00 AM CDT
I've been working towards the Fist of the Heavens title for awhile now but it remains out of my reach. Anyone happen to know atleast a ballpark for the reqs?
ENOTS
Re: Title reqs
05/04/2009 10:31 AM CDT
Hmm- Worril, it seems to me you would be the most likely to know!
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
CHRISTIANSONK3
Re: Title reqs
05/04/2009 04:29 PM CDT
I have the title, but I'm not sure what the relevant skills are, nor where I was when I got the title, so I'll just toss out some numbers.
Fist of the Heavens reqs:
< 550 ranks primary armor(probably < 500)
< 400 evasion(probably < 400)
< 300 brawling(probably <= 250)
<= 350 PM
-Landros
Fist of the Heavens reqs:
< 550 ranks primary armor(probably < 500)
< 400 evasion(probably < 400)
< 300 brawling(probably <= 250)
<= 350 PM
-Landros
TFPALADIN
Re: Title reqs
05/04/2009 10:50 PM CDT
I have the title, but no clue what it takes to get, sorry.
CHRISTIANSONK3
Re: Title reqs
05/06/2009 10:45 AM CDT
lol, I can imagine it...
"Less than 1300 ranks in shield... less than 1000 ranks in harness, uhhhh yea somewhere between where you are and that."
-Landros
"Less than 1300 ranks in shield... less than 1000 ranks in harness, uhhhh yea somewhere between where you are and that."
-Landros
