Earlier this evening, Sir Sebestyen Giraud lead a discussion on Paladins and The Code, hosted by House Giraud and held in the Temple of Light in Ilithi.

Here is a record of the evening's discussion.

Thank you!


Soldier and Scribe of Ilithi
Mistanna Redivas

---

Sebestyen says, "Thank you all so much for coming. I had a fear this would not appeal to such a diverse crowd, but I am pleased all of you took the time to attend."
Gemrardi says, "I got here, late... sorry."
Sebestyen says, "First off, I would like to thank Sir Hebion for planting the seed for this get together.."
Ohiyesa says, "You all smell bad."
Gemrardi says, "Gondola."
Sebestyen says to Gemrardi, "Right on time.. I delayed it a bit."
Gemrardi says, "Ahhh well, I like complaining about the Gondola, so let's just say I'm late."
Gemrardi says, "Gondola."
Sebestyen says, "First off, this will not be me preaching this or that, I intend to spark some thought and discussion on the matters of ethics and personal codes of conduct."
Sebestyen says, "I will pause from time to time for questions or comment, and ask that you raise your hand so that we may take some turns."
Sebestyen says, "I would appreciate if everyone tried to stay on point and to avoid redefining words that have commonly accepted meanings, so that we are not here for days debating good and evil or whatever."
Hebion says, "I'd just like to give credit where it is due, I might have been the one that got your attention on the matter but there was another that got me onto the topic and I feel he should be noted for it."
Sebestyen says, "Well, that comes as little surprise actually."
Sebestyen says, "And to tell the truth, he is one that comes to mind when I think of people that have certain codes of conduct and a sense of honor that are not Paladins.."
Sebestyen says, "Hence what I called this gathering.."
Sebestyen says, "So all that done with, we are speaking of codes which are simply rules that govern an individual's conduct, how he or she behaves or tries to behave."
Sebestyen says, "These can be devised by a group, or better as a personal and individual code. Most have probably heard of the Paladin Code, but there are many of other guilds that adhere to codes of conduct."
Sebestyen says, "For instance, some empaths will heal any who is in need.. and others refuse to heal those that go against their own principles or ideals."
Sebestyen says, "I have met mages and barbarians that hold to various principles as well, and would submit that most have their own code of conduct, even if it is not written out.. they keep it to themselves."
Sebestyen says, "Oh bother."
Sesi says to herself, "Oh for the love of tiny holy cows."
Sebestyen says, "Well.. we shall carry on then.."
Gemrardi says, "Excellent zombies."
Sebestyen says, "One notable code of conduct is sometimes found on the battlefield and has always been subject to debate by some. By that I am speaking of fighters who see fit to skulk about and attack non-combatants, or other innocents."
Sebestyen says, "Such as the Orcs in Therengia taking civilians.. or the undead during the Lyras war, killing innocents to raise them and attack some more.."
Sebestyen says, "These behaviors would be considered cowardly.. evil even."
Elfverhan says, "Hmmm."
Sebestyen says, "The Elpalzi, recently destroying the Keep and killing non-combatants.. they apply violence wantonly and from the shadows because they are cowards, and do not wish to be subject to violence themselves."
Sebestyen says, "They did not seek a fair fight."
Sebestyen says, "And yes."
Redeth says, "That assertion is wrong. While they did attack in the manner you said, they also walked a few of their own assassins. It would be accurate to state that their tactics are effective, if brutal."
Redeth says, "I do not think they fear combat...so much as want to win."
Ohiyesa says, "Our dog died in that Keep explosion, you know."
Starlear says, "I was going to say just that basically. I don't think they are cowardly in their actions. I think they are striking at morale as well as at strategic targets. It's unpleasant, yes, and you could say despicable. But I don't think cowardly is the right term."
Tankata says, "It matters not whether they are cowardly or brave.. We may label them cowardly to feel good about our own bravery.. what matters is that we understand their tactics, and that we can defeat them, should they strive against us again."
Sebestyen says, "All good points."
Ohiyesa says, "We think everyone should stop waiting for them to maul the towns and take the offensive."
Sebestyen says, "And by my personal warrior code, yes I will label them. But reject that it is to make me feel better about myself. I also recognize that others think differently and will not agree with my standards and moral code."
Tankata says, "My words were no slight upon you, only a comment upon psychology in general, and what it might benefit us most to focus on."
Sebestyen says, "Of course they will take risks, but their use of violence in that manner is not only to an impermissible end, but deployed via impermissible tactics."
Sebestyen says to Tankata, "No offense taken.."
Walcar says, "I see the attacking of innocents and non-combatives as just a strategy in war... destroy the suppy and support units. You will eventually win."
Sebestyen says to Walcar, "That would be your code.. or rules of engagement.."
Walcar says, "Such as empaths and clerics... without being healed the fighters will lose."
Sebestyen asks Walcar, "A bit different there.. technically combatants in a sense.. see the room for debate?"
Starlear says, "It is important to fight back against tactics one sees as dirty or underhanded as effectively as possible. Because history ends up being written by the victors, and I am sure that if killing civilians turned it around for someone and caused them to win, they would not regret it. Myself, I don't believe in the phrase "any means necessary", though...so I don't condone it or anything. I just can understand why they do it."
Sebestyen says, "Understanding reality is different than accepting it."
Saragos says, "It often coincides that willingness to engage in 'irregular' tactics, such as attacking civilians, is most often seen in those who are outnumbered, or not in power. They might say that such codes of ethics or chivalry are there to force them to fight a battle of brute force that they will not be able to win."
Sebestyen says to Erieck, "Or practicing it because it is the norm.."
Saragos says, "Though my own views differ on the subject, it's worth bringing up."
Tankata says, "Look."
Tankata says, "Hm."
Tankata says, "Nevermind, I had a thought. A pointed one. Onto someone else."
You hear a voice say, "Well said Saragos."
Hebion says, "Not always."
Sebestyen says, "All that said, some would call such tactics simple murder. Those that choose to practice 'honorable' rules of warfare or applications of violence do not always fare so well against those who do not."
Sebestyen says, "Honor has a cost. Honorable people pay that cost in their own blood. Murderers are not willing to pay that cost, willing to kill but not willing to expose themselves to the full danger that honor sometimes requires."
Redeth says, "That is the age old question of effort vs effect. Is 'honor' a construct of a civilized society or is it a tool for building one? Personally...I believe the former. War is bereft of honor for a reason. Civilization is antithesis to it. You weigh cost versus gain and you live with the consequences. My only addendum to that is children. There is argument to be made that any citizen of a province is, at least in part, responsible for the actions of the province as a whole and thus is an appropriate target during wartime. Children are not. Those who break that particular...rule should be staked down and burned alive."
Ohiyesa says, "It costs about 300 platinum dokoras."
Redeth asks, "A man can die for his honor...but if it leaves the task undone...what has he accomplished other than protecting himself?"
Tankata says, "I am prepared to act with honor at the cost of my own life.. but not at the cost of innocent civilians."
Ohiyesa asks, "...what?"
Tankata says, "Aye, better to die without honor so that innocents might be saved, then die with honor and fail, and have the town burn."
You hear a voice ask, "How did the man protect himself, if he died?"
Sebestyen says, "And Redeth here makes an important point. Many rules and codes of conduct are an attempt to maintain some civility. Some choose to hold themselves to higher standards. The means do matter as much as the ends. To do something I view as wrong in order to achieve some good.. well it taints that good."
Ohiyesa says, "He bought the 250 platinum protection plan."
Redeth says, "In any instance of being willing to die for something....a loved one, an ideal."
Redeth says, "You are effectively saying that you cannot deal with the consequences and you'd rather die. You're protecting yourself from that outcome by opting out."
Redeth says, "If you live with your shame and win...you've sacrificed."
Evro says, "I've always thought of honor as doing the right thing. Does destroying a village to defeat a province sound honorable? No...could it save lives...yes. Its sort of an ends justify the means for the greater good."
Tankata says, "Sacrificing a village by not defending it, in order to defend a different pass, that will save the Kingdom, might be moral. Destroying the village actively, in order to save the Kingdom, might not."
Evro says, "So would wiping out a caravan of traders supplying the enemy seem honorable?? perhaps not. But a hungry enemy will surrender before a well fed one."
Ohiyesa says, "If you're Evro, being drunk usually helps."
Tankata says, "You don't need to wipe out the traders, you can detain them."
Sebestyen says, "Difficult conundrums, and we all must choose our own paths in these matters to be sure. Redeth hit upon another point, as to why some have a code... A sense of purpose greater than oneself, an attempt to better oneself. He or she who has a why to live can bear almost any how."
Sebestyen says, "And.. yes.. we could go into small things and argue tactics.."
Evro says to Ohiyesa, "Seems everyone here is able to maintain a civil respectable tone except you...and yet you accuse me of being a drunkard and baffoon."
Redeth asks, "There are no heroes that can look at themselves in the mirror. If you never break your own moral code...you've never done anything untowards in your own eyes. Perhaps you've done good in your life but you've sacrificed nothing for it. Honor comes at self-expense. Can you be spit on in the streets when word of the atrocities at your hands spreads to the people you protected by being a monster?"
Sebestyen says, "But it is for each to decide for ourselves, what we find permissible in our own behavior."
Ohiyesa says, "Baffoon was your idea, not ours."
Ohiyesa asks, "Perhaps you ARE drunk?"
Starlear says, "This is more in response to what Redeth just said. But I would argue that there is never just one option. Someone who has to commit atrocities to save others may have done all they could and ended up there - but too often people simply just jump to the easy conclusion that will give the most immediate results. There is often a less obvious, more difficult, just as successful option with less collateral damage. But people are often not willing to look for it."
Korvanna says, "Every society, every government, has their own rules of engagement. While we can only judge them against ourselves, it is truly hard to condone or condemn their actions."
Redeth says, "Agreed. Generally all codes involve doing your best in the moment. Abdicating responsible deduction in the name of an easier answer is bereft of merit as well."
Sebestyen says, "Good input. So let us say that such high ideals and rules.. are.. ideals. One may or may not be able to live up to them."
Mandalynn asks, "Isn't that the point though? I mean ta have ideals to strive for and better yerself as ya go along?"
Sebestyen says, "For some.. yes. Others do not give as much thought to their actions or lives."
Elfverhan says, "Somtimes the hardest path is the one lest traveled."
Korvanna asks, "Not everyone has ideals...sometimes the point is just to win, isn't it?"
Tankata says, "For some, of course."
Elfverhan says, "Its easy to kill hard to let live."
Ezly says, "That is an ideal though."
Ezly says, "Glitter, where is Sesi..."
Korvanna says, "I would call it more of a goal, than an ideal."
Sebestyen says, "For some.."
Ezly says, "Ohh and Starlear is here."
Sesi says, "Oh! Oh I..."
Sesi quietly says, "I am so sorry."
Sesi quietly says to Sebestyen, "Thank you for having this, but I need to... I hear the siren call of my people, that is to say, glitter."
Tankata says, "I've seen most of you on the streets, unabashedly doling out death when a city is under attack.."
Sebestyen asks, "So, we have touched on.. and discussed this 'honor' thing, but what is it exactly?"
Erieck says, "This'll work..."
Sebestyen says to Sesi, "Enjoy the glitter.. you will miss the best part."
Sesi quietly says, "Bye everyone! Enjoy the rest of the conversation."
Starlear says, "My definition of honor is sticking to your principles, whatever they may be, whether I agree with them or not, rather than changing them to what is most convenient for the situation."
Starlear says, "I can find someone despicable honorable."
Sebestyen says, "That is a good summation.."
Tankata says, "I would call that behavior steadfast, rather than honorable.. If your code involves killing the defenseless, and you do not waver from that.. then yes.. steadfast.. seems more appropriate.. and probably too generous too, by half."
Evro asks, "Viggu sticks to his principles...you find him honorable as he kidnaps children for his experiments?"
Sebestyen says, "I am always suspicious though, of those that go about talking of how honorable they themselves are.. how superior and whatnot.."
Dianelle says, "Point in case. The Outcasts. We in the south consider them despicable at best, and yet they consider themselves honorable."
Sebestyen says, "And I would not judge their acts in the march to Shard honorable.."
Sebestyen says, "Even if they think they were."
Sebestyen says, "But.. that is a whole other discussion."
Redeth quietly says, "Honor is cultural. You will find as many definitions for it as you have people that claim to possess it."
Starlear says, "That breaks my definition of honorable behavior. Because they bent the rules and justified it after the fact as honorable. Which makes it not so at all."
Sebestyen says, "I tend to see ones honor as how he or she is seen by others.. not for them to decide. It is determined by what principles and code they do choose to live by, their integrity. When I was speaking of this to my squire, I came up with a pretty good analogy.."
Ohiyesa asks, "Why are we searching?"
Marssi says, "Because everyone else is."
Sebestyen says, "Note.. she is no longer a squire, having been elevated.. but she says it better than I did."
Ohiyesa asks, "Are we finding anything?"
Mandalynn asks, "The barn, sir?"
Tankata says, "I'll trust those with better eyes to search."
Ohiyesa exclaims, "Found something!"
Mandalynn says, "Integrity is the frame of your barn, the wood you use to build it with, the workmanship of constructing it. Character is what goes inside, clean hay and healthy livestock. Honor is the outside of the barn, how well maintained it is and painted, whatnot."
Ohiyesa says, "Now thats just rude."
Sebestyen says, "We tend to what is inside.. our own principles.."
Zamn grumpily says, "Awkward."
Sebestyen says, "Try to have a good barn. Others will judge it as they see fit. When I am asked if I am honorable.. well, I simply cannot that answer that. I try to live up to my ethics and principles."
Ohiyesa says, "We sense a disturbance in the shadows."
Sebestyen says, "So.. now we are at the point.."
Sebestyen says, "Let us all head through the Rutilor arch here."
Ohiyesa exclaims, "Thanks!"
Sebestyen asks, "We get everyone? Can someone check for me?"
Ohiyesa says, "Not to worry, we are here."
Sebestyen says, "I bring you all in here for the Paladin portion. No doubt the non-paladins here have heard of our Code. It is written here on the wall, please take a moment to read it through."
Zamn grumpily says, "Can someone tell me what that says, i cant read."
Ezly says, "I never knew this was here."
Sebestyen says, "It was set forth to us.. oh.. some forty years ago.. I was but a lad."
Ohiyesa says to Zamn, "Get your glasses you old baffoon."
Zamn grumpily says, "Oh, i was wearing them."
Ezly says, "Thanks for the nice discussion..."
Ezly says, "I've got to get going."
Sebestyen says, "First off.. I will say that not all Paladins follow this Code, some may have not heard of it unless an elder told them of it."
Sebestyen says, "As you will note, it charges us to work for good, and not evil."
Sebestyen asks, "Are there any questions in particular about our Code before I go on?"
Sebestyen says, "Right then.."
Redeth quietly asks, "The Loyalty decree...that is in order of importance?"
Sebestyen says, "As I tell young squires or..."
Navesi asks, "I take it there are no set definitions for some of these words, but it is up to the individual Paladin to discuss and interpret them with his or her squire?"
Sebestyen says to Redeth, "Perhaps, perhaps not. It may be subject to individual interpretation."
Sebestyen says to Navesi, "Words are words, many precisely defined and have meaning."
Sebestyen asks Navesi, "Any in particular that you note?"
Navesi says, "As you mentioned before -- good, evil. Just."
Sebestyen says to Navesi, "Alright.. some words are defined within the social framework. So, for someone that does not believe in that, they could do whatever they wanted with those definitions."
Sebestyen says, "What I think is justice, may not be someone elses sense of justice."
Redeth quietly says, "Generally speaking, these particular definitions come from accepted behavior from their patron. Rutilor in this case."
Hebion says, "Somewhat."
Hebion says, "There is a lot of leeway with how you come to the words."
Sebestyen says, "There can be.. with some of them."
Hebion says, "But my comment was on the order of loyalty.."
Sebestyen says, "Go on."
Hebion says, "That is a concurrent thing for most paladins that follow the code, you do your best to keep oaths only to those things that will not conflict."
Warbrolus says, "I need to be going. Thank you very much for this edifying meeting."
Sebestyen says, "One must be careful with oaths.. and loyalties.."
Hebion says, "Also figuring out which side is good or evil is a matter of training and perception."
Redeth quietly says, "Agreed."
Sebestyen says, "For when they cross.. tough decisions need be made."
Sebestyen says, "Good points."
Hebion says, "I had a good teacher."
Gemrardi says, "Sorry for not talking much more then about that freaking Gondola..."
Gemrardi says, "But got to leave..."
Zamn grumpily asks, "Did someone mention snacks?"
Sebestyen says to Gemrardi, "I hope you got something out of it at least."
Sebestyen says to Zamn, "No."
Zamn grumpily says, "Ugh."
Sebestyen says to Zamn, "On the bridge, there is a Faire."
Sebestyen says, "That was easy."
Sebestyen says to Evro, "Your turn.."
Evro says, "In regards to just and justice..."
Evro says, "I've always thought of justice being the result of laws while being just was agreeing with what is considered morally right or good...I don't see them as really attached."
Sebestyen says, "Laws are of people.."
Sebestyen says, "And people being imperfect, could create unjust laws."
Evro asks, "So being just could place you above the law so to speak?"
Sebestyen says, "Or.. subject to a law."
Sebestyen says, "I can justly defend myself and still be arrested for murder."
Evro says, "Sometimes doing the right thing, isn't the right thing if you want to stay out of jail."
Hebion says, "Jail doesn't stop the righteous."
Sebestyen says, "No.. it is a pain in the arse actually."
Sebestyen says, "But.. does not stop me."
Korvanna asks, "But...the code says that a paladin should not ignore the wishes of the God of Justice, so is it really the laws of mortals a paladin needs to adhere to, or the wishes of the God of Justice?"
Walcar asks, "Is each part of the code weighted equally? Or are some more important than others?"
Redeth quietly asks, "Justice exists as a wholly unattainable ideal. It is something strive for, I'd argue, but you'll never find perfect justice. Only our flawed attempts to get as close to possible. A society's laws are a perfect example of that. Is it just to kill a murderer or would it be more just to have prevented the murder through responsible, state-sponsored education?"
Sebestyen says to Walcar, "Depends on the interpreter.."
Sebestyen says, "As I tell my squires.. it is a strong suggestion.. for a personal code.."
Sebestyen says to Korvanna, "There may be conflicts between laws of mortals versus the Immortals.."
Sebestyen says, "Choices must be made."
Walcar asks, "Is the code a pass or fail? Or can you get half credit?"
Korvanna asks, "But does one trump the other?"
Sebestyen says to Redeth, "And.. yes. Possibly an unattainable ideal."
Arandrowse says, "Sorry, just been a long day."
Sebestyen says to Korvanna, "We are given free will, to determine our paths as we see fit."
Sebestyen says, "The 'law' of a dark aspect may conflict with what I feel is right and just.."
Korvanna says, "Heh...gods don't have laws, they have will."
Sebestyen says, "Just as mortal laws may conflict with my personal judgement.. we must choose as best we can based on what we are taught and believe is the proper path."
Sebestyen says to Korvanna, "Yes.. that is a better word for it."
Sebestyen says, "So.. all that being said.. I did mention that this Code is a recent construct by our guild."
Redeth quietly says, "Thus subject to revisions as problems crop up."
Hebion says, "Not only by our guild."
Sebestyen says, "There was research by Oane that suggests an older 'Code'."
Hebion says, "It was sanctioned by the Barony."
Hebion says, "And the influence of that is obvious."
Walcar asks, "Was the Code 'grandfathered' into paladins? Or just those who came after it?"
Sebestyen says, "We have no details, but it was suggested that.. as Paladins.. we are tied to the Immortals...in a more.."
Sebestyen says, "Intimate manner.."
Sebestyen says, "Light and dark."
Sebestyen says to Walcar, "And again.. many of our guild see it as a suggestion.. a strong one perhaps.."
Sebestyen says to Walcar, "There is room for other codes of conduct and such.. so long as they do not become heretical to the Immortals we serve."
Sebestyen says, "If some were to embrace dark Immortals and go about doing bad things to people.. it would no doubt be opposed by Paladins of the Light.. and perhaps others seeking some sort of balance.."
Ohiyesa says, "We find this all very confusing."
Sebestyen says, "The implications can be quite complex."
Sebestyen says, "I would imagine so.. we have drifted into theology somewhat."
Sebestyen says, "But I wish to leave it all at that."
Walcar says to Sebestyen, "Yes, very complex and painful too."
Sebestyen says, "With some final words."
Ohiyesa says, "We agree. We thank you all for coming tonight."
Sebestyen says, "As I said earlier, we each find our paths.. our own way. Some of us devise codes to keep us on the path we wish to follow.."
Sebestyen says, "Being imperfect mortals, we can stray. But we should still strive to do what we think is right."
Sebestyen says, "Thank you all.."
Sebestyen says, "For coming and listening patiently.."
Sebestyen says, "And thank you for all of the good conversation and input."
Karissa says to Sebestyen, "Thank you, it was very informative."
Mandalynn says, "Thank ya fer doin this sir."
Ohiyesa says, "I think we already said that."
You say to Sebestyen, "Thank you for leading this gathering."
Navesi says, "Yes, very interesting."

---

Thanks for the response! I thought it went well and did not feel overly interrupted or that folks were too rude. I planned for and wanted discussion instead of some lecture to people to enforce a certain viewpoint.

Anyway.. perhaps I will get another one going again.

~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.