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Top and Bottom Spells? 03/25/2016 12:47 PM CDT
Just out of curiosity... what are your top 5 and bottom 5 Paladin spells? Bonus points if you include why.

-Raesh

"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/25/2016 01:07 PM CDT
Please note I barely Paladin anymore, and these aren't in any particular order, but...

Top
DA: If any spell is a Paladin spell, it's this one.
HOW: Blesses held weapon, neat! The stun aspect seems too vestigial, because if I'm in an area with mobs that can hit me, one stun for four critters landing light/good won't do much, and if I'm in an area with mobs that can't hit me (but might land the occasional light), it's not really going to save me. I could see it maybe being useful in a PvP situation, though.
FST: I like that Paladins have some control over the damage type.
REB: I think knockdown + stun is awesome
RUE: I like the damage boost.

Bottom
AG: It just feels so niche on top of having too big a cost (poor favors!). Would be neat if it was just on a timer like RTR so it can't be spammed. Maybe more favors/soul would actually reduce the timer amount.
SF: With REB, or Halt + REB, it feels a bit toothless. I'm not sure when I'd really want to use SF.
Shatter: I'm just not feeling it these days. Maybe if it disabled shield and parry for a bit, but with just shield it feels so limited.
VOS: Just couldn't get into it. It's great in concept and it's thematically appropriate, but the trade-off is too weak. I'd never use it when solo'ing and it feels too weak to really invest in when helping others. Not being a ritual also hurts it a bit, I think, since 40 minutes can go by pretty fast.







Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/25/2016 01:21 PM CDT
This is from a midish level Paladin perspective (~80 circle)

Top:
1) Righteous Wrath: It helps make up for the skillset differences as they increase between your defenses and being able to actually kill things.
2) Truffenyi's Rally: Pretty solid Paladin-feeling spell. Defensive, semi-unique, pulses to the group.
3) Divine Armor: I mean armor is supposed to be out thing and so I guess this is nice since it makes it slightly better without adding EVEN MORE hindrance. Also I just like seeing numbers go up...
4) Holy Warrior: Another paladin feeling spell. Not necesarily because of the bless, but because of the stun on attack. Plus who doesn't love to laugh at the idea of hearing a voice say "Retribution" whenever it procs? I like to hear it in the Mortal Kombat voice personally.
5) Rutilor's Edge: Another help in making weapons be better and keep up with your defenses. Plus again it makes numbers go up and is rather unique in ability.

Bottom:
1) Alamhif's Gift: I wonder if a single paladin has picked this up. It is a ritual spell so requires reusable reagent or feats to an ability that I don't think anyone really cares about. This used to be such an iconic Paladin ability when people would gweth for Paladins to give a favor to a favorless body, but now just remains as a reminder of an identity lost. The two abilities are just lackluster. Removing death's sting for a favor? So rarely do people seem to die and need to get back in quick enough. Also doesn't uncurse still do this if cast high enough (that shows how often it is needed to be removed since I don't even know if my 100+ circle cleric can do it)? Filling soul pool for a favor? Maybe I just don't use it enough but I've never really been in the situation where I thought a favor for a soul pool would be worth it once you start to realize how much exp goes into an orb at a point.
2) Vessel of Salvation: I really can't find most reasons to pick this up. I love the idea of it but how often do I need to drop a vitality battery where empaths won't be around to just instantly pop vitality up? I wanted to get it to test it out and see if the orb at least sticks around after you leave the room but even then I would have to run back to triage and keep charging it.
3) Hands of Justice: PC stealing just so rarely seems to be an issue now that this spell is mostly just for training or to keep the "Paladin" feel. It does less than Focus Moonbeam and even Caress of the Sun but costs a slot why?
4) Clarity/Divine Guidance/Heroic Strength/Courage: All these together just constitute boring single stat buffs. If they were (at least a few of them) metaspells that added to each other a bit so we didn't have to maintain a million buffs at once. At least Rangers (the only other magic tertiary MU) have some of them bundled together. Stats and pure combat abilities are all we can buff which makes it a bit bland.
5) Halt/Stun Foe: Feels a bit redundant for the most part. I can choose to immobilize or stun and it feels like the Moon Mage calm or sleep option. Once you can stun why immobilize, unless I'm missing something important there? Perhaps if we had more debilitation options instead of this/these and shatter.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/25/2016 01:27 PM CDT
Since 3.+ I haven't played a Paladin past the mid-teens, so I'll just do a couple intro-basics:

Tops:

Righteous Wrath - It's nice to have a melee weapon skill buff to help the weapons keep pace with the defenses for moving into new hunting grounds. 2 slots is kind of rough for a magic tert early on though, and it has another augmentation spell as a prereq, so that either puts it a bit too far down the tree for my liking, or makes me put picking up my first spell for others skills later.

Courage - Stamina is a very useful buff to have when you're young. See last RW comment too, and HE comment below.


Bottoms:

Heroic Strength - It's not that the spell is bad, I just wish it were swapped in the tree for Courage.

Divine Guidance - Not sure if other Paladins find this useful later on, but I have never seen a use for it early. I don't have much use for a wisdom buff, and it is competing with a bunch of other augmentation spells when trying to diversify early on, as well as competing for limited slots for a magic tert.

Stun Foe - I don't know, I have never really been a fan of the stun debilitation spells. Kinda sucks that our first debil, and the beginning of one of our tree branches, can't target undead.

Hands of Justice - One of the two utility spells we can use prior to 80 ranks in the skill. It is thematic, but it doesn't really have a PvE application. Again, with limited slots, I've never even taken this spell.

Vessel of Salvation - Again, thematic, but not very useful for everyday use. Also 2 slots hurts for a spell that I only use to train the utility skill.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/25/2016 01:41 PM CDT
My Paladin topped out around 30.

Top 5:
1) AA: I can't turn down a damage barrier in current DR
2) SR+VI: It's not the best spell, but I like the boosts
3) Rebuke: Paladin multi-strike + I have always wanted to play Captain America
4) Anti-Stun: I don't get a lot of stuns as a Paladin, but it's a fairly nice ability if/when you need it
5) STRA: This is because I never liked FST. I haven't Paladin-ed since the changes, so I always considered it mandatory

I know 5 is off base, but I'm framing this on what I did when I was playing one regularly.

Bottom 5:
1) Vessel of Salvation: I never got anyone to actually use it, and it's two slots. If it were an ad-hoc or passive type sure.
2) RUE: It's not a bad spell. I simply dislike cast on weapon spells because it's 'meh' for me to script
3) HOJ: this is probably one of my most cast spells, but I've never once used the effects. It's an entry level 1 slot utility trainer, and that's it
4) Crusader's Challenge: I never really found a use for it. I understand the niche, but it didn't do anything for me.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/25/2016 02:04 PM CDT
>>HOW: Blesses held weapon, neat! The stun aspect seems too vestigial, because if I'm in an area with mobs that can hit me, one stun for four critters landing light/good won't do much, and if I'm in an area with mobs that can't hit me (but might land the occasional light), it's not really going to save me.

To clarify, it should stun each of those four critters, just not the same one repeatedly.

GM Grejuva
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/25/2016 02:16 PM CDT
>>To clarify, it should stun each of those four critters, just not the same one repeatedly.

Shows how little I've used it in those situations!

Thank you for clarifying. I still kinda see it as a secondary thing (who wants to ever get hit?), but a neater secondary thing.



Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/25/2016 02:41 PM CDT
The only time I have ever seen anyone use VOS for something besides training utility it was to abuse a bug for Empathy gain.

Neat in theory, not a lot of situations where it seems like it'd be practical or useful.



Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com

"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/25/2016 02:59 PM CDT
Top 5 (in terms of usefulness):
1) HOW - I keep this up pretty much 24/7. To me this is really what a Paladin represents. It provides a bonus against cursed/undead so that we dont' need to rely on clerics for a bless. It retaliates/stuns when you're hit. I'd like to see it work with ranged weapons, but what can ya do?

2) SR - Not as good as prior to 3.0 (I never change my stance points with it because they never seem to reset correctly when the spell drops), but still extremely useful. Especially when paired with a clerical MAPP scroll.

3) RW - I always use this spell when hunting. It gives a noticeable boost to being able to hit an opponent. This is especially important at higher levels where what we can hunt offensively does not really pair with what we can hunt defensively. Again, the removal of the ranged bonus hurt this spell, but overall it's still a good one.

4) Halt - Contrary to what a couple others stated I like this spell. I have yet to find something (mob-wise) I cannot halt. It's a nice way to stop an opponent when you hit pole ranged so you get the first strike. Certainly the days of keeping someone halted for 20-minutes while lecturing them on the antisocial nature of thievery is no longer possible, but I still find it to be a useful spell.

5) DA - This is a great spell although honestly, I don't use it all the time.


Bottom 5 (in terms of usefulness):
1) AG - I don't even have it. I like the concept behind it, but with the way departing and such works these days I see no real use for it.

2) HOJ - Another useless spell in this current player climate. Paladins should have more of an innate ability as such, tied to our Spidey sense.

3) BA - Just don't really see the need for this spell. If we die our items automatically bond to our hands. With bonding potions in existence the usefulness of it is even more attenuated. I really think the glyph of bonding should do what this spell does with a self-trace.

4) SMH - Too weak to really be useful. This is probably because it relies on TM. If it were purely debilitation like SF (and renamed to Stun horde), then I could see it being useful.

5) TR - I want to like this spell. I really do. However, I put it on the useless scale (it barely beats VOS). I just can't get behind how much mana this sucks up. If you have this spell up at a useful level (where you actually notice an effect) you really can't cast anything else. At least that's been my experience.

--Just a Squire

Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/25/2016 03:23 PM CDT
Lennon, can you explain more about why Horde stinks? I always thought it was okay, but didn't mess with it much.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/25/2016 03:37 PM CDT
>Lennon, can you explain more about why Horde stinks? I always thought it was okay, but didn't mess with it much.<

I just don't think it does much real damage (if it hits at all). Certainly I can go and cast on a group of goblins and smite them all with a single cast. However, at level (or slightly below) I just see no real teeth behind the spell. It might just be a legacy of having had no TM to train for most of Lennon's existence and now having TM (840 ranks) below the skills of what I primarily hunt (drakes, cabalists, moths). Perhaps for people who don't have such a disparity between TM and their primary weapons (which dictates what they hunt) they don't see as noticeable difference. But with my debilitation skill only 40-ranks higher than TM, I can snap cast SF and stun four at level mobs faster than I can get off a single cast of SMH and be guaranteed a stun on each of them. Just doesn't seem worth the mana cost and prep time to me.

--Just a Squire

Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/25/2016 06:56 PM CDT
>>DR-Raesh: Just out of curiosity... what are your top 5 and bottom 5 Paladin spells? Bonus points if you include why.

TOP FIVE SPELLS: The Paladin spells I rank as the best are the ones that are both thematically appropriate and mechanically useful.
Holy Warrior: I frequently hunt the undead, so being able to bless my own weapon indefinitely is incredibly useful. The occasional stun is a nice touch, though it's not frequent or long enough to have a noticeable effect on the fight.
Divine Armor: I really like being able to make high-end armor even better. It also helps with making less protective armor viable (such as when wearing a clown-suit for TDPs).
Righteous Wrath: This is especially helpful when you are moving into a new hunting area, as weapon experience is tied to damage inflicted.
Courage: It may just be a stamina buff, but it's one of my bread-and-butter combat spells. My Paladin is an Elf, so strength and stamina were often an issue in the beginning. Even now, Courage is sometimes the only thing that keeps my fatigue in check when using heavy weapons. And as one of the few buffs we can cast on other people, it makes me feel more useful.
Rutilor's Edge: I use this in conjunction with Righteous Wrath and for the same reason.

BOTTOM FIVE SPELLS
Alamhif's Gift: I have never liked any version of this spell; it's one of the spells I don't learn. Spells that cost me favors to use have to be really impressive for me to even consider them. (Given the number of favors I keep on hand, it is expensive to replace them.) Refilling my soul pool (which only does a few things) or mitigating death's sting just aren't worth the cost of a favor.
Vessel of Salvation: I did not learn this spell, because it is too niche. If people really need vitality (such as being killed in combat), I'm not likely to be able to sustain them for long. It's more commonly billed as a triage spell, but triage is not the best use of a Paladin's skills. Moreover, if Empaths are short on vitality, they are better off with a stamina buff and either casting Vitality Healing or having another Empath help with vitality.
Hands of Justice: I have this spell, but I couldn't tell you the last time I used it. It's too niche and too short.
Crusader's Challenge: If the taunt worked in PvP, I could see this being useful. As it stands, I never need it in PvE. It also suffers from such a short duration (2-10) minutes that if I tried to use it as hunting buff, I would spend a lot of my time (and mana) just recasting the spell for a marginal benefit.
Soldier's Prayer and Anti-Stun: These are tied for fifth place. The effects are useful, but the duration (2-10 minutes) is too short to use as hunting spells, as the frequent re-casting eats up a lot of time and mana.



Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/25/2016 08:07 PM CDT
My top 5 are: SR, RW, AA, halt and shatter

My top 5 are primarily based on what I cast most often.

Bottom 5:

• Hand of Justice (easily) for reasons mentioned
• Alamhif's Gift (easily) because nobody seems to care about the favor aspect and I only need the soul pool restoration occasionally when I group spar. Even then, sometimes I don't bother.
• Soldier's Prayer (easily) because it only eats one big mana spell and hinders my own casting. LW is way better.
• Smite Horde (easily) because it was only situationally useful before the limits to strikes

And...

• Vessel of Salvation: This was a toughy because I've saved countless people with a snapped VOS. VOS made it on the list because it's one of the more niche spells we have. If it were portable and had some solo uses, it'd be off my bottom 5 list.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/25/2016 09:16 PM CDT
Top 5:
RW - Offense gud
DA/Rue - Gear enhancement, especially on high end gear is always a win. WTB Mirror axe.
HoW - Cyclic stun, yes please.
Stat buffs - Can't go wrong there

Bottom 5:
VoS - Its been said by others a few times, but while I LOVE the idea, the use..frustrates. The niche it really shines in, isn't really a spot for a big ol paladin, but by the time you're capping this spell to really get the umph out of it, Triage isn't really the spot for you. For hunting/pvp/group pvp, with no way to prevent the wrong people from using it, and the MASSIVE reduction in power for self healing I ended up personally passing on this spell.

HoJ - Far more useful in yesteryear. Modern days is just isn't a need that really shows up much anymore (Sacred Insight has a similar issue). Great on paper, hard to justify the spell slots

Shatter - I have a love/hate relationship with this one. I love the idea, HOWEVER, in the era of auto-stancing, and not having a Ranged buff, combined with a re-use timer means I rarely, if ever, reach for this tool in the toolbox. POTENTIALLY amazing, in practice I'd rather pour the mana into another spell.

AS - This is one of those spells that I get frustrated with because of its duration. As has been been said in the past, Battle Augmentation spells miss the mark because of cost. Investing the 100 mana as a tert into an 8 minute buff is..less then optimal.

TR - Another spell I want to love. On paper the idea is great, dispel/group dispel, balance bonus, awesome. However, because of its rapid pulse speed (Yes, it needs to be fast to be useful in the era of things like Hydra Hex) and need to stuff mana into it to actually get a decently powered dispel, AND then costing spirit? Its just far and away too expensive, especially on a tert mana pool, to really use. I honestly only keep it for magical practice while forging.

*
Honorable Mention:
CRC - This guy would be #6 on both my Top and Bottom spells. A Tactics buff in PVP is Great, and has earned its place in my pvp buff list. The paper idea of the no retreat taunt effect is great, but here's where the spell goes sideways for me. Duration, Cooldown, and a Contest we can't pad well, especially as it slams into Discipline as its resisted stat. It suffers from the problem of "The guy you wanna use it on, you can't use it on", to the point where I do NOT even try to use the challenge effect.
*
Others have mentioned issues with our Debilitation spells, like SF and Halt overlapping, and I would like to mention I disagree. By these being different effects, as well as different contests they HAVE a place.

Samsaren
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/25/2016 10:34 PM CDT
>Honorable Mention:
>CRC - This guy would be #6 on both my Top and Bottom spells. A Tactics buff in PVP is Great, and has earned its place in my pvp buff list. The paper idea of the no retreat taunt effect is great, but here's where the spell goes sideways for me. Duration, Cooldown, and a Contest we can't pad well, especially as it slams into Discipline as its resisted stat. It suffers from the problem of "The guy you wanna use it on, you can't use it on", to the point where I do NOT even try to use the challenge effect.

Strongly agree here. Not to mention nearly every one of our contested spells (5 spells) uses a different contest (4 contests). Every other MU has no more than 3 different offensive contests. Charm v. Will makes sense for the CRC contest but this is one of those situations where, man, CRC would be so much more useful if it just had a different contest for taunt.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/26/2016 01:48 AM CDT
Top:
DA- buffs all worn armors up a notch, whats not to love
RW- this provides a huge weapon boost to all melee weapon, again whats not to love
SR- huge defending/reflex boost and lots of extra stance points
HOW- does a good job at training warding and hitting undead plus the random stun to enemies is good
AS- good for what it does, do wish it had better duration for paladins

Honorable mention:
BA- love this spell in invasions and mostly anything else in which i need to kill quick. I can cast it on my fav thrown weapon and go to town. (bonding potion on the cheap essentially)

Bottom:
HOJ- worthless spell which should be a ability. meh i never even got it after playing with it on spell preview
AG- lol favors are so hard to get and no perma death no more
CRC- i would like it more if the taunt worked correctly
SP- lol makes it so you cant do anything magical while running it
TR- man besides the fact it trains utility I honestly hate this spell. It uses a ton of mana due to the high pulse rate and on top of that it trains like garbage for the amount of mana it uses.

Honorable mention:
SMH: this would be in my bottom list but it has 1 saving grace. It trains TM like a bawse.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/26/2016 08:54 AM CDT
>>AG- lol favors are so hard to get and no perma death no more

AG's function has changed from ye olde give people favors, you might wanna check its new effect.

Samsaren
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/26/2016 10:01 AM CDT
>AG's function has changed from ye olde give people favors, you might wanna check its new effect.

I'll admit I didn't know that either, and just looked it up.

Who thought that the current version was a great spell? Ritual, costs a favor, and only does something you'd spend 10 minutes waiting out?
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/26/2016 12:35 PM CDT
>>Who thought that the current version was a great spell? Ritual, costs a favor, and only does something you'd spend 10 minutes waiting out?

I took it for the secondary effect of refilling Soul Pool for a long time, proved handy.

Samsaren
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/26/2016 12:54 PM CDT
AG's major flaw, functionality aside, is that it's a spell that gets harder and more expensive to cast the more favors you have, which feels really, really backwards to me.



Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com

"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/26/2016 01:22 PM CDT
>which feels really, really backwards to me<

I believe that, historically, this is part of the Paladin Guild motto. Our legacy has always to been to tack-on some sort of negative to anything positive we got. It's not as bad as it once was. Hopefully any remnant of this mindset changes with whatever rewrite the guild gets.

--Just a Squire

Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/27/2016 12:55 AM CDT
>>I took it for the secondary effect of refilling Soul Pool for a long time, proved handy

Meh whatever, soul is something easily kept pristine. Pilgrim Badge can be prayed every what? 30 mins or so I thought. My script does a quick prayer on it every buff cycle.

Death's sting recovery is cool but something im not gonna waste time casting a spell to get it back a little quicker. Usually need to wait regardless after a depart for health and spirit anyways.

~ AG is still a worthless spell
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/27/2016 12:59 AM CDT
>>Stevoson: Meh whatever, soul is something easily kept pristine. Pilgrim Badge can be prayed every what? 30 mins or so I thought. My script does a quick prayer on it every buff cycle.

Soul state and soul pool are two different things.

Soul state is a measure of how pure your soul is, and it affects the potency of some abilities.

Some abilities, such as glyphs, draw from the soul pool, which is finite in capacity. (The size of your soul pool depends on circle, charisma, and your current soul state.) When your soul pool is empty, you can no longer use those abilities. Alamhif's Gift can refill this soul pool at the cost of one favor.



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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/27/2016 03:47 AM CDT
This has been insightful.

Let's focus the discussion a bit - one of the major things that jump out at me for the Paladin spellbook is the fact that you have a LOT of augmentation spells that are only 1 slot, sometimes 2 (particularly stat boosters). This means you're investing a lot more mana to get the same bang for your buck as most other guilds.

Further, Paladins actually have a lot of stat boosters they can use at the same time compared to most guilds.

As I see it there's two major ways we could go to improve the situation. One option would be to expand some of the spells to beef them up and likely make a few of them mutually exclusive (similar to what we've done with the Bard rituals, Warrior Mage elemental transformations, or the Moon Mage spell Invocation of the Spheres). The other would be to combine some of the spells.

Thoughts?

-Raesh

"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/27/2016 07:12 AM CDT
>>The other would be to combine some of the spells.

I personally vote for combine. Paladins don't have a ton going for them, and taking away or limiting the amount of our current spells we can cast on ourselves is only going to increase frustrations at best.

>>Further, Paladins actually have a lot of stat boosters they can use at the same time compared to most guilds.

If you look broader, that's pretty much what we do. We can buff our stats, and the stats of our gear very well. Skill bonuses we're pretty lacking (1 of 3 defences, no ranged buff, no other skills), so we lean pretty hard on the stat buffs instead.

Samsaren
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/27/2016 11:01 AM CDT
> As I see it there's two major ways we could go to improve the situation. One option would be to expand some of the spells to beef them up and likely make a few of them mutually exclusive (similar to what we've done with the Bard rituals, Warrior Mage elemental transformations, or the Moon Mage spell Invocation of the Spheres). The other would be to combine some of the spells.

While I like choices, I have to agree with Samsaren, right now augmentation buffs are pretty much ALL paladins have so the only way I can see this being acceptable is if more spells showed up to take their place or the choices included deeper things than just the stat buffs. Combining the spells would help a lot with Paladins having to keep up a large amount of spells as a magic tertiary class.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/27/2016 11:06 AM CDT
>>While I like choices, I have to agree with Samsaren, right now augmentation buffs are pretty much ALL paladins have so the only way I can see this being acceptable is if more spells showed up to take their place or the choices included deeper things than just the stat buffs.

That's what I meant by beef them up.

-Raesh

"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/27/2016 11:12 AM CDT
>As I see it there's two major ways we could go to improve the situation. One option would be to expand some of the spells to beef them up and likely make a few of them mutually exclusive (similar to what we've done with the Bard rituals, Warrior Mage elemental transformations, or the Moon Mage spell Invocation of the Spheres). The other would be to combine some of the spells.

Either option is great. I think my preference would be a little of both. In other words, combining in some places (e.g. HES + courage and DIG + Clarity?) and expanding others. I like how ranger augmentation spells are set up in that their stat buffs typically buff a useful skill.

With a combine only, our spellbook might become a little anemic unless other spells are added.

Unrelated... happy Easter to those who celebrate it.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/27/2016 11:21 AM CDT
I like both ideas. I'm sure either one would help a lot.

What about turning some of the simpler buffs into glyphs?

--Just a Squire

Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/28/2016 01:47 AM CDT
>>DR-Raesh: As I see it there's two major ways we could go to improve the situation. One option would be to expand some of the spells to beef them up and likely make a few of them mutually exclusive (similar to what we've done with the Bard rituals, Warrior Mage elemental transformations, or the Moon Mage spell Invocation of the Spheres). The other would be to combine some of the spells.

>>Ashaman1: I personally vote for combine. Paladins don't have a ton going for them, and taking away or limiting the amount of our current spells we can cast on ourselves is only going to increase frustrations at best.

I could be persuaded with specific examples of "beefing up," but my general instinct is along the lines of what Samsaren posted.

Consider also that making spells mutually exclusive is not the default rule for augmentation spells. There are some special cases (more esoteric signature abilities that just logically can't coexist, like Gift of Life, an empathy buff, and Absolution, an empathy debuff), but we generally don't lock people out of using two buffs if they want to spend the time and mana to cast them.



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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/28/2016 04:57 AM CDT
Bard and Warrior Mage elemental rituals are mutually exclusive. Aegis of Granite/Mantle of Flame (WM), and Will of Winter/Words of the Wind/Soul Ablaze/Echoes of Aether (Bard). Not sure if anyone else has something like this.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/28/2016 08:02 AM CDT
Invocation of the Spheres is a similar concept for Moon Mages (You get one of three stat buffs) though it's executed as a single spell. It's something I think you'll see us playing with more in the future.

-Raesh

"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/28/2016 08:52 AM CDT
The thing is those guilds also have a far more significant debilitation suite to (more than) make up for the mutual exclusivity of some of their spells. Moon mages, for instance, have SOD (stat debuff) and rend (dispel x2 can remove stat buffs), which serves as a strategic counter to the mutual exclusivity of IOTS stat buffs. Bards have various weapon buffs and opponent debuffs, which support more debilitation + weapon heavy combat if they choose to use ECHO over WILL. Warrior mages have a bunch of debilitations that make it very difficult to hit them even if they opt for MOF (unusual unless it's an overmatch and the WM really wants to brawl). I'm not picking on guilds, just continuing with the examples above.

That's my concern with mutual exclusivity for this guild. I have no problem with some of our spells becoming mutually exclusive if that means beefing up our debilitation. However, as things stand, we have a lot more to lose with mutually exclusive buffs than other guilds. We basically have 2 debilitations, one of which is not extraordinary (immobilize or stun) and another whose most desired effect is available once every minute and a half. We can't debuff stats or skills and/or unbalance opponents or make their armor less effective, etc.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/28/2016 09:34 AM CDT


I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most moon mages don't do teleologic sorcery and wont have access to SOD besides and any moon mages using the spell heavily is losing a bit on buffs and debuffs gained through predictions.

Really, outside of predictions and sorcery moon mages are lacking stat and skill debuffs and predictions and sorcery come with limitations.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/28/2016 09:56 AM CDT
I need to make a better effort at understanding moon mage spells and abilities. By their nature, I guess, there are caveats and exceptions to seemingly everything moon mage. That sounds cool but it makes it hard to understand the guild as an outsider. That's probably why I used to enjoy sparring with moon mages. I felt like it was a different tactic each fight.

So... Notwithstanding my bad example, moon mages have other unique tools than simply augmentation which help them deal with the fact that IOTS stat buffs are mutually exclusive.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/28/2016 12:33 PM CDT


IOTS buffs intelligence/discipline(the svs and tm suite), agility/reflexes(weapon accuracy and defense suite) OR wisdom/charisma(prediction suite generally not used in pvp)


What most moon mages do in pvp is go with intelligence and discipline and focus on their strengths. It's a strategic choice which by the way might be limited due to which planets are visible. We don't get weapon buffs(not even tm) or defense debuffs to make up for the loss of an agility buff. Our warding spell is limited to moons in the sky. Our cyclic tm spell needs to cast at night. Our only defense buff is +evasion and would love to have a reflex buff to go with it but usually we go without.

Dispel(removes 1 spell per cast) is available to paladins and has very similar effects as rend(removes 2 spells per cast)

So, what a moon mage gets is predictions. We can buff and debuff any skill in the game provided we prepare for it. These buffs and debuffs can also backfire cause the opposite effect than intended or affect a skill that is inconsequential(aiming to buff TM buff augmentation instead or looking to debuff perception and debuff outdoorsmanship instead).

Then, we can control engagement through invisibility spells/stealth and whole displacement/teleports(needs a moon in the sky).

Really we're looking at apples and oranges. I sincerely doubt you want what moon mages have because it is decidedly unpaladin. Raesh is looking to make the situation better I'm sure. I'm understand not wanting to lose out on being able to cast all the stat buffs at once but what would help a Paladin feel more like a Paladin because doing what a moon mage does means hiding and escaping.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 03/28/2016 01:44 PM CDT
>Really we're looking at apples and oranges. I sincerely doubt you want what moon mages have because it is decidedly unpaladin. Raesh is looking to make the situation better I'm sure. I'm understand not wanting to lose out on being able to cast all the stat buffs at once but what would help a Paladin feel more like a Paladin because doing what a moon mage does means hiding and escaping

No, not at all. Don't want what moon mages or clerics or warrior mages or bards have. They're mostly set in their themes.

I was only trying to point out that those other guilds have various (key word) other tools outside augmentation to help them in combat. MMs are decidedly less combat oriented than the other MU guilds, including paladins, but they still have tools like those you mentioned, which fit the MM theme. To be clear, I'm not against making some or many of our buffs of the mutually exclusive type if that means our toolbox is expanded within the paladin theme, whatever that may be.

>Dispel(removes 1 spell per cast) is available to paladins and has very similar effects as rend(removes 2 spells per cast)

Don't discount that extra -spell. I've faced both Dispel and Rend and Rend is SO much worse. Comparing Dispel and Rend is almost like comparing Minor Physical Protection with MAF. Rend is that much more effective. It's one of the best offensive and defensive spells in the game.
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 04/02/2016 11:37 AM CDT
Is it too late to respond to this? I'm still getting the hang of this forum thing.

My last memories of Paladin magic (prior to returning about a month ago) are from early to mid-2000's and I've been largely surprised and pleased with the changes to the magic system. Here's my take after spending a significant time hunting and playing with the new (to me) spells:

Top

1Holy Warrior I always keep this up. The bless effect, and to a lesser extent the stun effect, are invaluable. Bonus points for the cool-looking holy golden aura.
2Rutilor's Edge Another always-cast. As a paladin, my offensive skills lag behind my defensive skills (rightly so). When I returned, I found that I could barely hit the creatures who taught me armor skills. Any boost to damage/offense is welcome.
3Righteous Wrath An almost-always cast. See above -- the offensive boost is a great help.
4Aspirant's Aegis An extra layer of protection when hunting creatures near my skill cap, during invasions, when questing. Usually have this up.
5Divine ArmorBoosting my already excellent armor protection makes me feel good. Extra tin-canny.


Bottom

1Hands of Justice I like the idea of this spell but in practice, it just isn't useful. I've never caught someone with it. The duration is too short to keep up all the time. Sense someone stealing, cast HOJ, and hang around with full pockets hoping they try again? That feels a clunky (and un-paladinly). I feel like people who steal from player-characters are typically going to choose the easiest, most defenseless marks. I'd rather have a glyph or ability to protect others from theft.
2Vessel of Salvation Almost never use this. Very niche. Sometimes I'll cast it in the Empath guild when I'm sitting and teaching or listening for awhile, but I wouldn't sacrifice a significant portion of my health pool in a hunting or invasion situation.
3Anti Stun Duration, duration, duration. Impossible to keep up for any length of time in combat. Must anticipate that you will be stunned and cast at the right time in order to be useful. I find PROTECT SELF more useful for rescuing myself from surprise stuns.



I see the discussion about Alamhif's Gift. I can't comment since I've never been in a situation that required me to use the spell (but maybe that speaks for itself).

Also, I didn't consider targeted magic (Footman's Strike, Rebuke, Smite Horde) at all in my lists. When I left, Paladins didn't have targeted magic spells and, while these spells may be lovely, I don't have the skill to hit anything that I currently hunt. The idea of back training hundreds of ranks of TM as a magic tertiary is a bit overwhelming (and I'm quite content to hunt without TM). I'd be interested to hear from other paladins whether the value these spells add to your hunting rotation is worth the time and effort training TM?



"We have a name for your disease. We call it a hyper-aesthetic one. You have been encouraged to over-indulge yourself in literature; and have inflamed your organs of fancy."
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 04/02/2016 12:19 PM CDT
>>I'd be interested to hear from other paladins whether the value these spells add to your hunting rotation is worth the time and effort training TM?

I had ~40 ranks when 3.0 dropped, simply be starting a hunting routine with TM has lead it to being close enough to level I can hit Intercessors with it hunting. As a tert, it takes very little effort to lock, and stays at good mindstates for so long it's almost silly not to work it in.

As for value - I find in modern invasions I use TM and LT for similar effect, with TM edging out LT in value in Quests or more potent invasions due to secondary effects (Rebuke's knock down is fun when I'm trying to be more assist-y, rather then rawr-y). Having an AOE for a few reasons is handy, too.

Samsaren
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Re: Top and Bottom Spells? 04/02/2016 12:46 PM CDT
There's no good reason to forgo training TM. It's useful in PvE (not PvP late game), extremely easy to train and... TDPs.

This is in Test:

> tar rebuke 50

That will disrupt less than half your current attunement.
You begin chanting catechisms to invoke the Rebuke spell.
You begin to weave mana lines into a target pattern around an arthelun cabalist.

> draw

< You draw a massive Dwarven greataxe with a bearded silversteel blade at an arthelun cabalist. An arthelun cabalist barely blocks with a blazing shield.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced and in good position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

R> draw
>
< Moving in gracefully, you draw a massive Dwarven greataxe with a bearded silversteel blade at an arthelun cabalist. An arthelun cabalist fails to evade.
The greataxe suddenly cries out "Justice!" as it flares white hot and lands a solid hit to the cabalist's abdomen.
[You're winded, adeptly balanced and in very strong position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

R> draw

< Attacking gracefully, you draw a massive Dwarven greataxe with a bearded silversteel blade at an arthelun cabalist. An arthelun cabalist fails to evade.
The greataxe suddenly cries out "Justice!" as it flares white hot and lands a heavy strike that nicks the cabalist's left forearm.
[You're winded, nimbly balanced and in better position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
R>
> draw

< Awkwardly, you draw a massive Dwarven greataxe with a bearded silversteel blade at an arthelun cabalist. An arthelun cabalist attempts to evade.
The greataxe suddenly cries out "Justice!" as it flares white hot and lands a heavy strike that rips into the right calf, lightly stunning him.
[You're tired, adeptly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]


> draw

< Fluidly, you draw a massive Dwarven greataxe with a bearded silversteel blade at an arthelun cabalist. An arthelun cabalist attempts to evade, mainly avoiding the blow.
The greataxe suddenly cries out "Justice!" as it flares white hot and lands a heavy strike that cuts deeply into the cabalist's groin.
[You're tired, incredibly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
R>
Your formation of a targeting pattern around an arthelun cabalist has completed.

> cast

You rebuke an arthelun cabalist with your pavise shield.
Waves of dull golden light emit from the shield which crash over the arthelun cabalist.
An arthelun cabalist manages to deflect some of the first wave with his blazing shield.
The first wave inflicts a hard hit to an arthelun cabalist's left leg.
An arthelun cabalist manages to deflect some of the second wave with his blazing shield.
The second wave inflicts a massive strike to an arthelun cabalist's right leg.
An arthelun cabalist manages to deflect some of the third wave with his blazing shield.
The third wave inflicts an extremely heavy hit to an arthelun cabalist's abdomen.
An arthelun cabalist manages to deflect some of the fourth wave with his blazing shield.
The fourth wave inflicts a strong hit to an arthelun cabalist's chest.
An arthelun cabalist manages to deflect some of the final wave with his blazing shield.
The final wave inflicts a very heavy hit to an arthelun cabalist's right eye.

Roundtime: 1 sec.
R> chop

>
< Moving in gracefully, you chop a massive Dwarven greataxe with a bearded silversteel blade at an arthelun cabalist. An arthelun cabalist fails to block with a blazing shield.
The greataxe suddenly cries out "Justice!" as it flares white hot and lands a heavy strike that explodes the heart and lungs with a bone-shattering blow to the chest.
An arthelun cabalist's eyes flare one last time before snuffing out forever. The flames reluctantly withdraw from their host forming an ephemeral wisp that rapidly flees.
The shimmering ethereal shield fades from around a charred husk.
[You're nimbly balanced]
[Roundtime 5 sec.]

> prep halt 33
That will disrupt less than a quarter of your current attunement.

You begin chanting catechisms to invoke the Halt spell.

> draw

>
You turn to face an arthelun cabalist.
< Moving skillfully, you draw a massive Dwarven greataxe with a bearded silversteel blade at an arthelun cabalist. An arthelun cabalist badly fails to parry with a longsword crafted from pure flame.
The greataxe suddenly cries out "Justice!" as it flares white hot and lands a strong hit to the cabalist's right arm.
[You're tired, adeptly balanced with opponent in strong position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

> cast

You gesture at an arthelun cabalist.
You stare intently at an arthelun cabalist, stopping him in his tracks with your gaze.

Roundtime: 2 sec.

R> tar fst 33
That will disrupt less than a quarter of your current attunement.
You begin chanting catechisms to invoke the Footman's Strike spell.
You begin to weave mana lines into a target pattern around an arthelun cabalist.

> draw

< You draw a massive Dwarven greataxe with a bearded silversteel blade at an arthelun cabalist. An arthelun cabalist barely blocks with a blazing shield.
[You're tired, adeptly balanced and in superior position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

> draw

< With grace, you draw a massive Dwarven greataxe with a bearded silversteel blade at an arthelun cabalist. An arthelun cabalist fails to block with a blazing shield.
The greataxe suddenly cries out "Justice!" as it flares white hot and lands an extremely heavy hit that tears a painful cut across the knuckle of the left thumb, lightly stunning him.
[You're tired, adeptly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

R> draw

< With grace, you draw a massive Dwarven greataxe with a bearded silversteel blade at an arthelun cabalist. An arthelun cabalist badly fails to block with a blazing shield.
The greataxe suddenly cries out "Justice!" as it flares white hot and lands a strong hit to the cabalist's left arm.
[You're tired, adeptly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]

>
Your formation of a targeting pattern around an arthelun cabalist has completed.

> cast

You gesture at an arthelun cabalist with your Dwarven greataxe, letting out a war cry to Chadatru!
A powerful, bright white light flashes along the edge of the greataxe, blinking out of sight near-instantly.
The arthelun cabalist's blazing shield emits a gnashing noise as blade-like lights fly from the edges.
The arthelun cabalist stumbles momentarily as a deep cut is slashed into his back.

Roundtime: 1 sec.
R> chop
>
< Moving fluidly, you chop a massive Dwarven greataxe with a bearded silversteel blade at an arthelun cabalist. An arthelun cabalist fails to block with a blazing shield.
The greataxe suddenly cries out "Justice!" as it flares white hot and lands a heavy strike that splinters bones and nearly severs the left arm, severely stunning him.
The cabalist's blazing shield falls to the ground.
[You're tired, nimbly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 5 sec.]


R> chop

< Moving fluidly, you chop a massive Dwarven greataxe with a bearded silversteel blade at an arthelun cabalist. An arthelun cabalist attempts to evade, avoiding most of the blow.
The greataxe suddenly cries out "Justice!" as it flares white hot and lands a very heavy hit that savages the belly to expose the intestines.
An arthelun cabalist's eyes flare one last time before snuffing out forever. The flames reluctantly withdraw from their host forming an ephemeral wisp that rapidly flees.
The shimmering ethereal shield fades from around a charred husk.
[You're nimbly balanced]
[Roundtime 5 sec.]

Targeted Magic: 868

^That's low for these creatures, and I don't need to stun or immobilize to hit them with rebuke or SMH consistently.
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