At what point was it decided that paladins can't cast/learn utility until either A) they have 60 ranks of arcana to learn GAF off a scroll or B) that they need 80 ranks of utility to cast one of their own spells(that are offered at 8th circle!!!)...I am all for paladins being a combat oriented guild but restricting a magic using guild from a type of magic until they have managed to listen to 80 ranks worth of classes is just rather silly. Can this be looked at and revised to make a magic skill actually learnable outside of classes without having to blow 2 spell slots on a AG spell they can't even learn til 60 arcana?

* Vessel of Salvation works with 0 utility ranks. Not the world's most useful or popular spell, but it is an option and easy to get and cast.
* Bond Armaments isn't really early in the tree, but it's pretty easy to cast. It says a minimum of 50 on it but by the time I had it, Holy Magic compensated enough for my low utility that it wasn't an issue.
It does seem kind of silly that DA (advanced) is a possible requirement for BA (basic). The other optional requirement is RUE (advanced) so the requirements for BA seems odd.

GAF is extremely useful for a long time compared to most other 2 slot spells. I can't imagine not taking it on any MU, and it's possible to learn it before 60 ranks of arcana, just not easy.

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Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Also... you might be able to use Bless from the cleric tree. Better then wasting a spell slot on something you not not want.

"There are no low level utility spells" is not the same thing as "I don't like the low level utility spells available" though, which was the point.

I mean, you can make a fair argument that there could be other options added, but you do have at least one available to you right now to tide you over until you can research.

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Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!

>>If the spell is too difficult, then it shouldn't be made available.

We intentionally do not do this and set preqs low because we don't want to gate people who do train in that direction. We try and have warnings that you may not be able to cast a spell before choosing it, however.

>>I can not think of another guild that requires either A) 60 to 80 ranks to be able to cast a specific type of spell or dependence on another guilds magic.

Necromancers and Warding come to mind.

>>Vessel of salvation is a spell that in my near 20 years of playing I have never seen cast/used/talked about with obvious reasons...

That reason being that it has only existed for a fraction of those 20 years?

>>to learn bless you'd need a scroll....back to the 60 arcana there.

And that's fine. Paladins are by no means required to train ALL of their magic skills from 1st circle. In fact, they're only ever required to learn three magic skills.

-Raesh

"The trouble with atheism, is that it offers a limited range of curses.” - Two Serpents Rise

Longer term, you REALLY don't wanna start carte blanch dropping skill reqs on spells. That and if you honestly don't like VOS, don't take it. Wait a while, get Holy Magic up, and use it to cast slightly harder spells. Or, take it, and once you've got the skill for others take advantage of the free spell forget.

You have options that don't make you sound like my two year old being denied the eleventyfifth repeat of his favorite story.

Samsaren

In all honesty, I somehow missed Hands of justice being utility so my apologies there. I think my eagerness to want more productive spells comes from playing a cleric for so many years. Seems I need to adjust. Thanks to all for the input and info(except Ann who I think just lives to derail threads I post in).

That was a joke Ann...

mostly.....

>My Paladin chose Hands of Justice for his Utility training spell and never had trouble with it.

HoJ may be a good candidate for a rewrite in the future (I hope). Does anyone use it for any reason other than training? Right now I view it as one of those spells that exist only because they fit a theme, like Air Bubble, but don't serve any other real purpose. VoS is a more useful spell and trains Utility from circle 1. VoS gets a bad rep, but the numerous people I've saved in a pinch seem to like it as much as I do. I'd love to see its functionality expanded, like a self-cast feature and/or the ability to take it with you or refresh its duration, but I understand its reception wasn't great.

HoJ is a crappy spell.

No doubt about it.

-Raesh

"The trouble with atheism, is that it offers a limited range of curses.” - Two Serpents Rise

When you consider we're magic tertiary, we have a good number of spells. Some would argue, and a number of magic primaries do, that we have too many spells. Where paladins lack development, or, maybe more accurately, don't mesh well with the current iteration of the game is in guild-specific abilities: holy armaments, glyphs, smite, lead, protect and sacred insight. That is, I think, one reason we have so many spells. Rangers, too. It's been hashed out a bit in other threads in case you want to take a look back and chime in with suggestions. Your suggestions may even help shape the guild, since shaping a new direction for the paladin guild has been a hot topic for a while now.

I think empath is a good example of an ideal distribution of spells and abilities for an MU of a non-primary magic guild. The idea of what an empath is and does is well-established and unique, as is their guild skill. Empaths have a strong suite of magic, being that they are magic secondary, but their bread and butter is empathy. Necromancers are, too. Even though their rituals aren't fully developed yet, you know the direction of the guild is headed in that direction, with Risen and their rituals being a major part of what they are and do.

When it comes to the other non-primary MU's, bards, paladins and rangers, it's not as cut and dry. Although bards saw a tremendous benefit from enchantes becoming spells, they lost some of their identity and they are, in a way, more of a magic guild now than a music or lore guild. Many paladin abilities aren't very useful now or we have spells that replace their primary function, so, like bards, we're more of a caster guild now (just not that good at it). Rangers are similarly positioned in that they're more casters than... Whatever rangers are supposed to do (play with squirrels and hug trees?). Our issue is a little different than rangers' and bards', like I mentioned earlier, in that rangers and bards do have an identity even if it isn't fully fleshed out, and they have guild skills even if they're not fully developed. Paladins have a number of abilities but they don't work well to identify what a paladin is and does, and clerics' identity has evolved over the years to include a lot of what paladins were back in the day.

I've wondered what it would be like if paladins (and rangers and, in the future, traders) were more of a hybrid guild, where our abilities used a system like barbs and thieves have. I'm thinking in terms of glyphs becoming more like a sort of khri, using soul pool and teaching the appropriate magic skill, for example. Ideally, some of the spells we already possess would become glyphs (or whatever else), which would mean losing some spell slots in favor of ability slots. I’m totally fine with that. The guild teaches magic is not a crutch but, then, without magic paladins are basically glorified commoners that wear a clown suit really well. At the same time, we’re not barbs; magic is part of the guild and its lore.

Glyphs are just an example. Intuitively, Protects fit that sort of system. Smites fit, too, although maybe more like thief ambush abilities tied to the debilitation skill.

Of course, that leaves out Asceticism/Endurance, I suppose, unless perhaps the skill governed the size of the soul pool and factored into all ability contests. It also requires a good definition for paladin ability and paladin spell. I’ve suggested in the suggestion section of the Paladin forum that glyphs could work exclusively with weapons and armor (own or opponents – i.e., range limitation) to help distinguish them from paladin spells, which may be an option. I don't know if it would fit but in that scenario, all paladin utility spells become glyphs and glyph self buffs, like GoL, become spells.

>That's a major part of what I want to fix with both guilds.

I'm excited about that and the future for both guilds in light of all the changes I've seen over the years since 2.0.

For a long time now, glyphs have been no more substantial than magic primary MU guilds' abilities, like communes, align, predictions, pathways, etc. I'm hoping for more instant-on options for our buffs and debuffs, too. I do A LOT of casting and virtually no smiting, glyphing, etc. I feel like for a magic tert MU, it should be at least 50-50 in casting and ability use.

Totally off topic, but I'm particularly fascinated with the idea of abilities that might make us want to get hit given our affinity for absorbing a hit.