...and I'm presenting a redesigned leading system from all of your poorly copyrighted ideas. Bwahahaha!

Anyway, it combines formations with glyphs, and a little spice of my own ideas for that almost original flavor. So, without further ado, I shall design as I type:

First of all, leading would no longer be a large bonusing ability in and of itself. It would give a small bonus initially, to make it actually do something at low levels, but it would become more of a base than an actual boost. Bread instead of meat, if you will. Why? Because this is my sneaky way around global caps to the lead ability. (Shh... Don't tell the GMs.)

Anyway, if the leads don't give noticable bonuses, what is the point of formations? Well, chosing the formation is basically chosing what kind of bread you want to use. Some leads will work better with certain add ons and certain aspects of add ons.

So, what are you going to throw on that bread? Well, you have maneuvers, inspiration, glyphs, and spells. Maneuvers are basically the meat of the lead, which are what you actually command your troops to do. Inspiration are small boosting effects used to enhance the lead. If you don't know what spells or glyphs are, go read the appropriate folders and come back.

Formations and maneuvers are based on a combination of discipline and charisma. Inspiration is purely charisma-based.

The major intent here is to make leading more than just typing LEAD and thwacking something, so it is the interaction of all those things which makes up a good lead.

Some sample formations: (consume nothing to switch, soul to begin)

Base (the 2nd circle one) - small boost to combat stats and skills, but reduced effects from add ons.

Melee - all add-ons give improved bonuses to melee and reduced penalties. Reverse is true for ranged. Maneuvers that bring followers to melee enhanced, with ones that bring followers to missile reduced.

Defense - defensive bonuses increased. Offense bonuses reduced.

Some sample maneuvers: (consume fatigue and concentration)

Optimal Range - those holding melee weapons automatically advance to melee range. Pole go to pole. Missile to missile. Change advance to retreat if the follower is closer than the optimal range. Retreat has improved chances.

Contain - all opponents automatically wind up facing the closest follower.

Rally - advance speed increased. All members of group will begin advancing on the opponent the leader is facing, even if they are within pole range of another opponent.

Some sample inspirations: (consume concentration and spirit)

Mighty blow - Single strike by the paladin. Equivalent to chop, bash, or lunge, depending on if the weapon is slice, impact, or puncture. Weapon skill reduced, but strength increased. A miss will give a penalty to offense to all followers. A hit will, depending on the level of it, give a bonus to defense. Can only be done once per opponent per hour.

Mockery - Gives a 30-second RT. Every time an opponent misses the leader during this RT, the offense of the followers increases. If the paladin is stunned or a bleeder-inflicting wound is landed on him, the defense of all followers falls.

Bravery - Can only be initiated when at melee with 2 or more critters. Offense of all followers improves based on how many critters are facing the paladin.

Some new effects of glyphs:

Ward - wards all dead followers.

Light - increases perception of all in group. For the melee formation, perception is improved against opponents at melee and reduced for opponents at missile.

Mana - room mana is improved for the mana type of all in group

Ease - eases all dead followers

Bond - bonds all weapons lying on ground

Uthmor - when it comes out, it will affect all and work with other advance/retreat boosts from maneuvers

Some new effects of spells:

Courage - duration acts as multi-person cast. Boost acts as a single-person cast

Trothfang's Rally - reduces balance of all opponents at melee range with a group member

Most spells - affects all

Player of Linras Cauldrath

Perfect.

Great post.

The whole concept of hinderin other abilities while greatla enhancin others is to kinda make each of the formations more distinct.

Ah kinda believe that also if you get a penalty to skills that you are able to better enhance the ability on a balance scale... as in, if you hada formation based on ranged weapons... the weapon would be designed to get a larger percent boost with a detriment rather than a moderate boost without detriment.

Not sure from a design point of view, butah guess that's the general gist of things.

>Which makes me think that anything powerful enough to warrant a penalty will have a small chance of making it through QC.

Global caps are only determined on a per ability basis. Stacking multiple abilities on top of each other are not affected by the caps as a group. So, for example, I can trace the Glyph of Light, cast Clarity, and have a moon mage cast Clear Vision on me and I can go above the cap on a perception bonus. (Which, ironically enough, I did just the other day when I was looking for someone who took a few plat off a paladin. Also ironic that no one decides to steal from me. ::mutters::)

Anyway, that is one major reason I design that lead system the way I did. Having a large system with many different sources for bonuses allows the bonuses to continuously increase. I anticipate, though, that each individual thing will give a rather small bonus, especially after being done multiple times, but the overall effect should at least rival Dragon Dance if the paladin really puts some effort into the lead. Not only getting the stats and skills to make each ability powerful, but also maximizing the number of abilities used in a single lead.

The biggest problem with this, though, is that it would probably be a beast to code and balance.

Finally, the main reason I put drawbacks into most of the abilities is that I don't want to see a paladin run into battle, type LEAD, then just haphazardly spam bonusing commands as fast as possible. Each one needs to be thought through thoroughly and deliberately, which is something a paladin should always be doing. We aren't barbarians that just go berserk and swing at stuff and let our bonuses take care of everything for us.

Player of Linras Cauldrath

I'm all for the concept of turning paladins into master tacticians...

Some thoughts on recent Lead suggestions.

If, from what I understand, I lead melee and half my troops are ranged I just buggered them in their attempts to fight. Lead is an indication to all troops to raise their abilities. Imagine a Quarterback who instead of sliding and missing the 1st down throws his body into the massive linebacker and barrels forward to make it. His actions his leadership inspires not only the offensive players but defensive as well. That's kinda how I see Lead now, to have lead give penalties I think is a bad idea and should be avoided. A paladin leads all troops, ranged and melee, inspiring them to be better.

<<Defense - defensive bonuses increased. Offense bonuses reduced.>>

Do we not have spells that do exactly this already? Sentinel's Resolve, RW for ourselves? The point of lead was giving a bonus to both defense and offense, I dont see why we would want to give that away to now have it penalize aspects, we got spells that do that enough already.

I feel lead is adequate as it is already, though I do like your ideas of rally and formations, but would rather see them as stand alone combat abilities we paladins could have rather than things alterring the solid foundation Lead provides. One thing with optimal range, if you are leading various people like mages they may want to be melee or ranged but retain a melee weapon in hand, how would this differentiate where their range was? Might be better allowing followers to determine how they are going to fight so long as we guide them in the battle. Not always is a general able to adjust troops in the heat of battle.

I agree somewhat with your suggestions to Glyphs, though I dont think Lead should be the catalyst to their changes. In my thesis glyphs get changed so that a paladin can study how to take a glyph from single affect, to group, and even to room. I think that is a feature that needs to be added to the glyph system, but again one that requires more work on our part to learn and use rather than an automatic feature of Lead.

Overall I like some of your thoughts but disagree slightly on their implementation. I think combat formations/maneuvers should be a separate paladin ability, have always felt that and mentioned it to Damissak and Maelona a few times at various cons. I also agree with your glyphs and changes needed to that system, again just not with the implementation. Lastly, I strongly disagree with the thoughts of making Lead become selected skill/stat bonusing abilities. If the fear of how the global caps are going to change our current lead are fueling suggestions to limit which skills get a bonus in hopes of getting a higher raise than what we may get for all defense and all offense then I dont agree with those suggested changes. I would rather be able to maximize Lead through circle, use, skills/stats and keep it in its fundamental state as an all things bonus because it provides the greatest aid to the most people than to see us accept a slice n diced version to salvage stronger single bonuses.

Shiv

PS: Some sound ideas here, not disagreeing with all things just a few parts to it, or seeing them better as stand alone abilities.

<<Do we not have spells that do exactly this already? Sentinel's Resolve, RW for ourselves? The point of lead was giving a bonus to both defense and offense, I dont see why we would want to give that away to now have it penalize aspects, we got spells that do that enough already.>>

Note how it said defensive "bonuses" reduced. Also, castin sr or rw on yer whole group is kinda difficult.

<<One thing with optimal range, if you are leading various people like mages they may want to be melee or ranged but retain a melee weapon in hand, how would this differentiate where their range was? Might be better allowing followers to determine how they are going to fight so long as we guide them in the battle. Not always is a general able to adjust troops in the heat of battle.>>

This is where different paladins come in. The whole jist behind the idea of havin formations is that people who's main is ranged will join up with x paladin while people who are generalla magic types will crack their stuff up with y paladin.

Havin people of every type join one leader who also specializes in one thing isa bad idea. This is why we have different commanders fer different types of people intha field.

Whoever saw Zaknufien intha Sorrow War leadin ranged-only fighters would have weeped at how effective it was. Ah was ableta tr and lead a couple of times with this tactic and lemme tell you... havin 20 people fire with a full aim in conjunction with a lead anda tr was a beautiful thing... too bad that lead wore off whenah didn't wanna have it on anamore and too bad we couldn't have had a larger bonus to just ranged weapons at the expense of not bonusin anathing else. Whichever... it was fun.

Never said I didnt use those, however it still primarily can get a bit cluttered.

<<Note how it said defensive "bonuses" reduced. Also, castin sr or rw on yer whole group is kinda difficult.>>

And other posts have mentioned one giving a defensive bonus/offensive negative, I did note it but commented on both ideas at once. I dont think giving up a stronger all Lead to get a weaker all lead and stronger individual skill leads is the way to go, whether or not its difficult to cast SR on groups.

How often do you find these war situations?

I agree that would be nice to see when there are larges numbers of paladins, however for everyday life creating such division for separated leaderships may not be practical.

I have no doubt it is effective, I question its use outside of special rare occasions such as the Sorrow War. Even the best commanders in the field need more than one faction of fighters, if we are more the overall general then the duties of organization are passed down through lieutenants (SP bad I know) who organize various troops. The general as a leader inspires each contingent by showing his own bravery and raising his own level of skill. The others feed off his momentum, even if he fights melee a ranged person seeing the shear power of his presence can be inspired to fight better. Just as a quarterback isnt a defensive player but his play on the field can inspire the defense to step up to a higher level. Not saying it's completely bad, just feel that I'd rather keep Lead's all skill bonus as high as possible rather than ship it down to the minor leagues in hopes of getting individual aspect Leads powered up.

Lead is one of the top 3 most powerful abilities that exists in the game. The design of the ability called for such placement on purpose. When it faces the global caps this should be kept in mind that yes it needs to meet the caps but that it is also meant to be one of the stronger abilities and thus compared to other abilities it should be kept close to the cap ceilings. Just cause caps were in place that doesnt mean Lead needs to be neutered, just brought within the caps but remaining as an ability that remains above many others and set close to the cap ceiling.

<<How often do you find these war situations?>>

Not enough, by far.

Mebbe this will come into focus better when lead is downtweaked, which ahm sure Pureblade will be behind. Har har har.

I'm on board with this one, that would be a superb bonus for us, cant tell folks how many times I just get beat trying to hunt with 3 or 4 folks in swarm spots.

Shiv

PS: Here's a thought I just had concerning those separate leads. How are we to lead a mage? Would we have a lead for magic too? Would TM spells be considered ranged? And if we did lead magic users think about that, we are telling mages who have twice as much PM as we do that we know how to use TM magic better than they do. Might make more sense that we lead overall by inspiring thus inspiring a mage to use his abilities at a higher level. That formation of melee/ranged I think would be a great paladin ability separate from Lead. I dont want folks misunderstanding my posts, I'm not saying bad idea, I am saying let's get it as a stand alone ability.