I'd like to open discussion on the first order of business: Glyphs & Guildskill.
It would save a little time to start with soul state and work from there with the revised soul in place, but honestly I think both you guys and I are better served with getting the guildskill out the door and some relatively short (still looking at potentially a few months down the pike, but short in DR terms) development goals.
With that said, here are my current thoughts about the glyphs. Feel free to offer suggestions.
WARDING:
I want to remove its current function entirely and transform the slot into an anti-DFA ability.
BONDING:
I want to remove its current function, but I have no idea what to replace it with yet.
LIGHT:
I'm OK with its basic function, but it needs its numbers severely tweaked. Strikes me almost as more spell-ish than Glyph-ish, but I'm not willing to cut a Glyph just for that reason.
MANA:
OK with its basic function, could stand revision.
EASE:
I'm nominally OK with its function, but wouldn't mind finding something to replace it with.
AUTO:
I'm imagining a chance to auto-ward on DFA hit, based on guildskill. Never a sure thing, but scaling up to a decent chance to reactively anti-DFA a surprise attack.
RENEWAL:
Not touching Holy Weapons yet, so this will remain as it is with perhaps just the introduction of guildskill.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
DR-ARMIFER
SHIFT3
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/14/2017 11:47 AM CST
> WARDING:
> I want to remove its current function entirely and transform the slot into an anti-DFA ability.
Can you keep the anti-aiming component? If not, maybe use bonding for the anti-DFA. Something about bonding the shield to you in a supernatural way that allows you to block blows you can't see. Maybe that's sacred insight now? Not being caught flat footed.
> BONDING
> I want to remove its current function, but I have no idea what to replace it with yet.
Use on target, they can't move rooms until one of you dies or the glyph expires.
> EASE
> I'm nominally OK with its function, but wouldn't mind finding something to replace it with
What about adding in an athletics component?
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/14/2017 12:06 PM CST
>>Can you keep the anti-aiming component? If not, maybe use bonding for the anti-DFA.
Hrm, possible. Honestly I don't like how it interacts with TM, but at the same time I can live with it. I do think the anti-aim/target feature is worth its own ability if it stays, and wouldn't feel too bad about just axing the deader part entirely. Conceptually it hurts my unsanctified soul to have "aid the dead" and "distract archer" and "dispel TM patterns" all packaged together.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
Hrm, possible. Honestly I don't like how it interacts with TM, but at the same time I can live with it. I do think the anti-aim/target feature is worth its own ability if it stays, and wouldn't feel too bad about just axing the deader part entirely. Conceptually it hurts my unsanctified soul to have "aid the dead" and "distract archer" and "dispel TM patterns" all packaged together.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
ASHAMAN1
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/14/2017 01:12 PM CST
WARDING: While I know you've some issues with the mechanics behind 'no aim at me', I'd miss it. Even with all the nerfs it's suffered we don't have some many combat tools I want to see them wander off on us. The Aid Dead stuff however, in modern DR with the Depart changes and ease of Raise are awful moot.
BONDING: Death's grasp has pretty much wrecked this guy. If I get a choice, I'd rather keep Ward's combat abilty, turn this guy into anti DFA, and keep on rolling.
LIGHT: For a Magic Tert guild we're already too spell focused. While I (sadly) am aware this one too is going to get smashed with a 2ton nerfbat, I would prefer it hang around.
MANA: Would prefer it didn't fade the instant I step out of a room. Duration's okay (maybe a little low @200th circle), potency could use a bump.
EASE: Would love to see this either: A, see a healthy bump in the fatigue bonus and cooldown for younger paladins, B change into an engagement ability to allow us to engage in the melee combat we're largely pigeon holed into.
If A, I think it should be moved around to an earlier ability. If B, should stay as one of the later earned Glyphs.
AUTO: "I'm imagining a chance to auto-ward on DFA hit, based on guildskill. Never a sure thing, but scaling up to a decent chance to reactively anti-DFA a surprise attack." I'd be totally okay with such.
RENEWAL: "Not touching Holy Weapons yet, so this will remain as it is with perhaps just the introduction of guildskill." I always think of this one being part and parcel of Holy Weapon, so it being untouched till HWeaps get poked at only makes the utmost sense.
New thoughts:
Sanctify: I would love to see a glyph that adds some potential burst to our combat. Either something along the lines of ramping HWeap's holy up a few factors, or adding a (brief) high pep flare to our attacks of holy damage.
Rebuttal: Similar to above, but a flare, or kick back through Armor or Shield. We currently have a handy reactive tool in Holy Warrior for the debilitation side, and I think something with a Thorn Damage style would mesh nicely with the paladin toolbox.
Samsaren
BONDING: Death's grasp has pretty much wrecked this guy. If I get a choice, I'd rather keep Ward's combat abilty, turn this guy into anti DFA, and keep on rolling.
LIGHT: For a Magic Tert guild we're already too spell focused. While I (sadly) am aware this one too is going to get smashed with a 2ton nerfbat, I would prefer it hang around.
MANA: Would prefer it didn't fade the instant I step out of a room. Duration's okay (maybe a little low @200th circle), potency could use a bump.
EASE: Would love to see this either: A, see a healthy bump in the fatigue bonus and cooldown for younger paladins, B change into an engagement ability to allow us to engage in the melee combat we're largely pigeon holed into.
If A, I think it should be moved around to an earlier ability. If B, should stay as one of the later earned Glyphs.
AUTO: "I'm imagining a chance to auto-ward on DFA hit, based on guildskill. Never a sure thing, but scaling up to a decent chance to reactively anti-DFA a surprise attack." I'd be totally okay with such.
RENEWAL: "Not touching Holy Weapons yet, so this will remain as it is with perhaps just the introduction of guildskill." I always think of this one being part and parcel of Holy Weapon, so it being untouched till HWeaps get poked at only makes the utmost sense.
New thoughts:
Sanctify: I would love to see a glyph that adds some potential burst to our combat. Either something along the lines of ramping HWeap's holy up a few factors, or adding a (brief) high pep flare to our attacks of holy damage.
Rebuttal: Similar to above, but a flare, or kick back through Armor or Shield. We currently have a handy reactive tool in Holy Warrior for the debilitation side, and I think something with a Thorn Damage style would mesh nicely with the paladin toolbox.
Samsaren
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/14/2017 01:31 PM CST
>>Sanctify: I would love to see a glyph that adds some potential burst to our combat. Either something along the lines of ramping HWeap's holy up a few factors, or adding a (brief) high pep flare to our attacks of holy damage.
Later down the line I want to touch Smite and make it more... more. So probably not a glyph at this point.
>>Rebuttal: Similar to above, but a flare, or kick back through Armor or Shield. We currently have a handy reactive tool in Holy Warrior for the debilitation side, and I think something with a Thorn Damage style would mesh nicely with the paladin toolbox.
Currently thinking I'd like to place a damage shield as one of the active armor skills when we get there.
So both solid ideas, I just have different places in the Paladin toolset I want to place them in.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
Later down the line I want to touch Smite and make it more... more. So probably not a glyph at this point.
>>Rebuttal: Similar to above, but a flare, or kick back through Armor or Shield. We currently have a handy reactive tool in Holy Warrior for the debilitation side, and I think something with a Thorn Damage style would mesh nicely with the paladin toolbox.
Currently thinking I'd like to place a damage shield as one of the active armor skills when we get there.
So both solid ideas, I just have different places in the Paladin toolset I want to place them in.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
BADGOPHER
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/14/2017 02:11 PM CST
I think it's coming with your armor suggestions later (I'm making an assumption you're doing a whole slew of these posts), but what about a thorns effect from one of the glyphs/guildskills? Block, parry, or hit deal varying types and severity of damage.
WMs can summon weapons or pathways as a long term sustained ability which they recharge through use of spells. It would be nice if Paladins could activate a ward (whether thorns or other) and train guildskill then have other utilities to recharge their pool.
As I see it, Paladins should be in combat, etc.
WMs can summon weapons or pathways as a long term sustained ability which they recharge through use of spells. It would be nice if Paladins could activate a ward (whether thorns or other) and train guildskill then have other utilities to recharge their pool.
As I see it, Paladins should be in combat, etc.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/14/2017 02:19 PM CST
My current thought is to do the Paladin work fairly piecemeal, so we're not locked into a multi-year massive overhaul before you see tangible benefits. Glyphs are the first piece I want to work on and release, though I need to do so with my future development plans in mind.
In particular, I want to take Raesh's original idea for active armor abilities and pursue it. But I'm not ready to fully flesh that out until I'm some ways into Glyph work.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
In particular, I want to take Raesh's original idea for active armor abilities and pursue it. But I'm not ready to fully flesh that out until I'm some ways into Glyph work.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
SHIFT3
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/14/2017 03:14 PM CST
I like the name sanctify. Maybe make it an uncurse glyph, self only? Maybe add elemental (fire or holy) damage to brawling?
SHIFT3
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/14/2017 03:16 PM CST
> In particular, I want to take Raesh's original idea for active armor abilities and pursue it. But I'm not ready to fully flesh that out until I'm some ways into Glyph work.
One thing I've always wanted for paladins is a block to damage formula. I would like to see them going into a defensive stance, and using their shield to hurt anything that tried to attack them while in this stance. Maybe make it so they can't attack in this stance for balance. Maybe make it a captain america style cyclic spell where they hit 3-5 creatures in the room with their shield.
BADGOPHER
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/14/2017 03:24 PM CST
Would it be possible to give Paladins a glyph of abatement or postpone..ment...? I've seen other MMO's (I think FF14 in particular, with the Paladin class amusingly enough) use a system where incoming damage over a certain severity is put into a queue, and the queue continues to trickle the damage out slowly. In an MMO it serves to combat huge damage spikes from bosses, but in DR it could be an interesting rework of a warding ability that doesn't just give us ++damage resistance.
So I guess:
Ward: See above.
Bond: Combat applications of forcing things to melee (as a pulsing ability?). I'd be amused to see a non-combat ability to create civil unions, since the guild is about social constructs. Same function as a cleric bonding, just different. Still an ability from a trans-dimensional being to cause the bond.
Light: Having a light source is...ok, but really there are easier ways to do it. Perception is also easy to come by right now. I'd actually make it into a medium cost combat ability, where people targeting the Paladin take stuns from holy-flashbangs. Give it an internal cooldown as appropriate to PvE or PvP applications. Could steal a page from cleric books and make things that hit you while the ability is active (regardless of stun) take the effect of a divine radiance cast (-Balance, Knock-down. Holy damage amplification)
Mana: It's a fairly unique and strange ability. At the core, raising room mana by depleting associated rooms is kinda cool. Might be able to make it more user friendly by allowing a self-cast version that only helps the Paladin, similar to POM, possibly in conjunction with spells/feats/etc.? Would be cool to have a spell and ability intertwine.
Ease: Short of making it a replica of bard spells or EASE the spell, I don't know what could even be done here. It never made sense to give an ostensibly low level ability (drag corpses better) to level 25 characters
Auto-ward: I think this ability has enough utility in and of itself to stay in the current form. It's a nice bonus. If you wanted to scale it up, adding in memory restoration would be cool, and it would be nice to see Paladins crib from Clerics every now and then.
So I guess:
Ward: See above.
Bond: Combat applications of forcing things to melee (as a pulsing ability?). I'd be amused to see a non-combat ability to create civil unions, since the guild is about social constructs. Same function as a cleric bonding, just different. Still an ability from a trans-dimensional being to cause the bond.
Light: Having a light source is...ok, but really there are easier ways to do it. Perception is also easy to come by right now. I'd actually make it into a medium cost combat ability, where people targeting the Paladin take stuns from holy-flashbangs. Give it an internal cooldown as appropriate to PvE or PvP applications. Could steal a page from cleric books and make things that hit you while the ability is active (regardless of stun) take the effect of a divine radiance cast (-Balance, Knock-down. Holy damage amplification)
Mana: It's a fairly unique and strange ability. At the core, raising room mana by depleting associated rooms is kinda cool. Might be able to make it more user friendly by allowing a self-cast version that only helps the Paladin, similar to POM, possibly in conjunction with spells/feats/etc.? Would be cool to have a spell and ability intertwine.
Ease: Short of making it a replica of bard spells or EASE the spell, I don't know what could even be done here. It never made sense to give an ostensibly low level ability (drag corpses better) to level 25 characters
Auto-ward: I think this ability has enough utility in and of itself to stay in the current form. It's a nice bonus. If you wanted to scale it up, adding in memory restoration would be cool, and it would be nice to see Paladins crib from Clerics every now and then.
SHIFT3
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/14/2017 03:51 PM CST
> I've seen other MMO's (I think FF14 in particular, with the Paladin class amusingly enough) use a system where incoming damage over a certain severity is put into a queue, and the queue continues to trickle the damage out slowly.
You're thinking of Monks in World of Warcraft. The Stagger mechanic. Paladins in FF14 are kings of mitigation and AOE threat, but TMK there's no delay mechanic. It's an interesting idea. It also gives a unique take on the cheat-death mechanic where paladins become immune to vitliaty loss for a certain amount of time. It makes more sense in DR where vitality isn't the only way to die.
> Having a light source is...ok, but really there are easier ways to do it.
100% this. It's a free ability, which is cool, but it's niche and redundant.
CHIMERIAN
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/14/2017 04:03 PM CST
A high level glyph that allows you to protect 2 adventurers with your shield
A glyph that allows a deader to use 2 favors to depart with all his items, money and coin.
- Felicini
A glyph that allows a deader to use 2 favors to depart with all his items, money and coin.
- Felicini
ISHARON
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/14/2017 11:00 PM CST
>>DR-Armifer: With that said, here are my current thoughts about the glyphs. Feel free to offer suggestions.
Will our glyphs use our new guild skill and scale in power with rank (in addition to soul purity)?
Below are my thoughts on the current glyphs and suggestions for improvement.
WARDING
Given its name, warding should be a combat tool. I don't PvP very much, so I'll defer to others' opinion on that. However, some anti-DFA options are very much needed for us.
BONDING
This glyph is now obsolete due to the updated death mechanics. I would like to transfer and upgrade the death functionality of Warding to Bonding.
Currently, Glyph of Warding is not very useful to the dead, because most people either depart immediately or wait for a Cleric to raise them.
Would it be possible to update this functionality so that it simply reduces the favor cost of departing by one? For example, it normally costs two favors to DEPART ITEMS. If a corpse is warded (or if you auto-ward on death), it would cost one favor to DEPART ITEMS.
Alternatively, this could be used to protect earned ranks (not field experience) when dying and departing.
As an aside, I would really love a DEPART MEMORIES option for everyone that did this at the cost of an additional favor. The bigger you get, the more painful it is to lose even a fraction of earned ranks, and not all of us have Cleric mules or die at a time and place that is convenient for Clerics. (Death should be a purely forward-looking penalty.)
LIGHT
I occasionally use this as an emergency light source, and it's nice when it's needed. If it remains as just an emergency light source, its soul cost should be reduced. (I have encountered more than one Paladin who, upon questing for the glyph at 15th circle, had too small of a soul pool to use it.)
I have two different proposals for new versions of this glyph:
One common complain among Paladins is that we have so few anti-stealth options. I would like to see this reveal those who are hiding/invisible at a hefty soul cost. (The idea is to have an option for emergencies, not to be used as a routine replacement for perception ranks.)
A second weakness of Paladins is our lack of ranged damage output. (While we can use ranged weapons, we don't have any special abilities in that area, as we are traditionally melee fighters. And targeted magic is a tertiary skill for us, so it tends not to be on par with secondary weapon ranks.) I could see tracing the Glyph of Light on your weapon (maybe limit it to holy weapons) to convert it into a ranged attack, where each hit depletes the soul pool in an amount proportionate to the amount of damage done. (Soul state would moderate the amount of damage done.)
Effectively, this would allow you to use melee weapon ranks to inflict a ranged attack for a limited period of time. (What made me think of this is the Master Sword from The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, allowed Link to attack with a beam of light from his sword when his health was at 100%.)
Again, this would not be a replacement for ranged weapons but something to use in a pinch when you either can't hold the opponent at melee range, or you find yourself fighting a flying creature that flexes to your top weapon.
MANA
It's OK as it is.
EASE
I never use this glyph, as my strength and stamina are adequate, especially when buffed. The functionality strikes me as something that would be more useful to a novice, yet it can't be learned before 25th circle. If you aren't going to change this functionality, I would make it available to novices.
One feature that might be useful is to temporarily negate encumbrance/burden (regardless of the weight you are carrying).
Alternatively, it would be cool if this glyph negated the hindrance imposed by armor when swimming or climbing. (I currently have to stop and remove my armor before swimming anything challenging.)
One other option might be to temporarily reduce (or negate) maneuvering hindrance of armor in combat, with the effect wearing off either on a timer or when your soul pool runs out.
AUTO
I would find this useful if it used (my updated) Glyph of Bonding to reduce favor cost for departing and/or protect earned ranks.
While living, an automatic chance to block DFA attacks would rock.
OTHER
We get our last glyph at 50th circle. It would be nice to have some higher-circle glyphs, maybe at 75th, 100th, and 150th circles. I could definitely see a "holy shield" and "holy armor" abilities, where (similar to the holy weapon quest) you could sanctify a shield and single suit of armor (must all be of the same type, so no clown suits).
High-level glyphs could then be used to interact with your holy weapon, holy shield, and holy armor. (I've been reading the Stormlight Archives, and I really like the concept of Shardplate, which adapts to the form of the wearer, providing superhuman strength and speed with mobility that is better than what one would expect in plate.)
Something like that might be OP to have as a passive, unlimited property of holy armor, but I could see spending soul in an application of our guild skill.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
Will our glyphs use our new guild skill and scale in power with rank (in addition to soul purity)?
Below are my thoughts on the current glyphs and suggestions for improvement.
WARDING
Given its name, warding should be a combat tool. I don't PvP very much, so I'll defer to others' opinion on that. However, some anti-DFA options are very much needed for us.
BONDING
This glyph is now obsolete due to the updated death mechanics. I would like to transfer and upgrade the death functionality of Warding to Bonding.
Currently, Glyph of Warding is not very useful to the dead, because most people either depart immediately or wait for a Cleric to raise them.
Would it be possible to update this functionality so that it simply reduces the favor cost of departing by one? For example, it normally costs two favors to DEPART ITEMS. If a corpse is warded (or if you auto-ward on death), it would cost one favor to DEPART ITEMS.
Alternatively, this could be used to protect earned ranks (not field experience) when dying and departing.
As an aside, I would really love a DEPART MEMORIES option for everyone that did this at the cost of an additional favor. The bigger you get, the more painful it is to lose even a fraction of earned ranks, and not all of us have Cleric mules or die at a time and place that is convenient for Clerics. (Death should be a purely forward-looking penalty.)
LIGHT
I occasionally use this as an emergency light source, and it's nice when it's needed. If it remains as just an emergency light source, its soul cost should be reduced. (I have encountered more than one Paladin who, upon questing for the glyph at 15th circle, had too small of a soul pool to use it.)
I have two different proposals for new versions of this glyph:
One common complain among Paladins is that we have so few anti-stealth options. I would like to see this reveal those who are hiding/invisible at a hefty soul cost. (The idea is to have an option for emergencies, not to be used as a routine replacement for perception ranks.)
A second weakness of Paladins is our lack of ranged damage output. (While we can use ranged weapons, we don't have any special abilities in that area, as we are traditionally melee fighters. And targeted magic is a tertiary skill for us, so it tends not to be on par with secondary weapon ranks.) I could see tracing the Glyph of Light on your weapon (maybe limit it to holy weapons) to convert it into a ranged attack, where each hit depletes the soul pool in an amount proportionate to the amount of damage done. (Soul state would moderate the amount of damage done.)
Effectively, this would allow you to use melee weapon ranks to inflict a ranged attack for a limited period of time. (What made me think of this is the Master Sword from The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, allowed Link to attack with a beam of light from his sword when his health was at 100%.)
Again, this would not be a replacement for ranged weapons but something to use in a pinch when you either can't hold the opponent at melee range, or you find yourself fighting a flying creature that flexes to your top weapon.
MANA
It's OK as it is.
EASE
I never use this glyph, as my strength and stamina are adequate, especially when buffed. The functionality strikes me as something that would be more useful to a novice, yet it can't be learned before 25th circle. If you aren't going to change this functionality, I would make it available to novices.
One feature that might be useful is to temporarily negate encumbrance/burden (regardless of the weight you are carrying).
Alternatively, it would be cool if this glyph negated the hindrance imposed by armor when swimming or climbing. (I currently have to stop and remove my armor before swimming anything challenging.)
One other option might be to temporarily reduce (or negate) maneuvering hindrance of armor in combat, with the effect wearing off either on a timer or when your soul pool runs out.
AUTO
I would find this useful if it used (my updated) Glyph of Bonding to reduce favor cost for departing and/or protect earned ranks.
While living, an automatic chance to block DFA attacks would rock.
OTHER
We get our last glyph at 50th circle. It would be nice to have some higher-circle glyphs, maybe at 75th, 100th, and 150th circles. I could definitely see a "holy shield" and "holy armor" abilities, where (similar to the holy weapon quest) you could sanctify a shield and single suit of armor (must all be of the same type, so no clown suits).
High-level glyphs could then be used to interact with your holy weapon, holy shield, and holy armor. (I've been reading the Stormlight Archives, and I really like the concept of Shardplate, which adapts to the form of the wearer, providing superhuman strength and speed with mobility that is better than what one would expect in plate.)
Something like that might be OP to have as a passive, unlimited property of holy armor, but I could see spending soul in an application of our guild skill.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
SHIFT3
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/15/2017 12:12 AM CST
> Currently, Glyph of Warding is not very useful to the dead, because most people either depart immediately or wait for a Cleric to raise them.
The more I think about it, the more I feel like paladins should either accept a role with helping the dead or separate themselves from it entirely. Frankly, I'm leaning towards the latter. Let tending the dead and spiritual needs of the playerbase be the cleric's domain. This opens up the paladin to tending the living and physical needs (protect).
What if bonding was changed entirely.
- It could let people move with things at their feet, maybe with an RT. They walk off, their things go with them.
- It could have a taunt effect.
- It could let paladins insure that thrown or shot ammo never lodges. It always returns to hand after thrown, which opens up hurl options other guilds don't have.
- It could let paladins wear tower and wall shields on their arm, literally sticking it to themselves.
- It could go the scholarly route, and bond scrolls to the paladin. They're less likely to lose them during sorcerous backlash.
- It could be a reverse contingency. If someone is stunned or mortally wounded (assuming they accept the bond) then they're taken to the paladin's location (same province).
- It could bond your armor to you (becoming the anti-DFA, or an anti-anti-armor spell, defending against spells like CoZ or Shatter).
There are so many options that don't really have to do with death, and may provide more day-to-day usage. If death was required, then maybe something unique to paladins.
- It cound bond your own soul to your body. Maybe letting you drag your body to help costing a little spirit energy with each move.
- Maybe the soul-bond could prevent you from dying no matter how bad your body was injured (so long as it lasted)
- It could bond your own memories, as Isharon suggested.
Lots of options, but I keep hearing how we need to differentiate paladins from clerics. This could be a good way to do it.
> As an aside, I would really love a DEPART MEMORIES option for everyone that did this at the cost of an additional favor. The bigger you get, the more painful it is to lose even a fraction of earned ranks, and not all of us have Cleric mules or die at a time and place that is convenient for Clerics. (Death should be a purely forward-looking penalty.)
+1, but this is coming from someone without a cleric. I can see how clerics would see this as taking away their utility.
ISHARON
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill (Depart Memories)
12/15/2017 02:47 AM CST
>>As an aside, I would really love a DEPART MEMORIES option for everyone that did this at the cost of an additional favor. The bigger you get, the more painful it is to lose even a fraction of earned ranks, and not all of us have Cleric mules or die at a time and place that is convenient for Clerics. (Death should be a purely forward-looking penalty.)
>>Shift3: +1, but this is coming from someone without a cleric. I can see how clerics would see this as taking away their utility.
It would not be the first time the game has taken away (or mitigated) a guild's niche utility in the name of playability. (I'm looking at you, updated death mechanics.) Besides, it's not as though Clerics are lacking in the utility department.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
>>Shift3: +1, but this is coming from someone without a cleric. I can see how clerics would see this as taking away their utility.
It would not be the first time the game has taken away (or mitigated) a guild's niche utility in the name of playability. (I'm looking at you, updated death mechanics.) Besides, it's not as though Clerics are lacking in the utility department.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
2DUMBARSE
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill (Depart Memories)
12/15/2017 08:21 AM CST
+1 with Sam on the warding glyph. The death function is not useful but the aim functionality is a staple for me.
We’ve had some discussions about paladins possibly being more tool-oriented than the other holy guild (think: holy weapon is an augmented permanent weapon rather than a spelled or conjures one). How about some glyphs that depend on armor. For instance:
Glyph warding - maybe instead we could keep the aim penalty and add a buff to shields’ offensive stats. Shields are terrible weapons otherwise which I don’t think should be the case for paladins.
Glyph Bonding - imbues armor with soul energy, making it almost feel like an extra appendage. Mods depend on armor covering largest area. For instance:
* Light armor - 20% chance to completely avoid incoming physical attacks (arbitrary figure - has to be significant to make paladins switch from plate to leather) removes all stealth hindrance from leather armor - may synergize well with the Batman ethic
* Chain armor - change of significantly reducing the potency of magic attacks cast at the paladin. Chance decreases based on armor coverage area. Does not stack with other mods. (Eg all chain = 20, half chain coverage = 10%)
* Brig - same as chain, but for ranged physical attacks.
* Plate - chance to reflect a portion of damage back at attacker based on coverage
A similar glyph could exist for shields, encouraging paladins to actually try other shield and armor combos.
We’ve had some discussions about paladins possibly being more tool-oriented than the other holy guild (think: holy weapon is an augmented permanent weapon rather than a spelled or conjures one). How about some glyphs that depend on armor. For instance:
Glyph warding - maybe instead we could keep the aim penalty and add a buff to shields’ offensive stats. Shields are terrible weapons otherwise which I don’t think should be the case for paladins.
Glyph Bonding - imbues armor with soul energy, making it almost feel like an extra appendage. Mods depend on armor covering largest area. For instance:
* Light armor - 20% chance to completely avoid incoming physical attacks (arbitrary figure - has to be significant to make paladins switch from plate to leather) removes all stealth hindrance from leather armor - may synergize well with the Batman ethic
* Chain armor - change of significantly reducing the potency of magic attacks cast at the paladin. Chance decreases based on armor coverage area. Does not stack with other mods. (Eg all chain = 20, half chain coverage = 10%)
* Brig - same as chain, but for ranged physical attacks.
* Plate - chance to reflect a portion of damage back at attacker based on coverage
A similar glyph could exist for shields, encouraging paladins to actually try other shield and armor combos.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill (Depart Memories)
12/15/2017 09:06 AM CST
Sorry, I forgot to second another post... any engagement ability would be seriously welcomed. It’s sorely needed. Other guilds can kill things before I get to melee in pve. In pvp, an opponent can easily punish a paladin by sticking to missile range since retaliation requires melee in an even match and retreat is instant.
I know debilitation aren’t really our thing and that’s cool if we will get other ways of compensating through thorn abilities and stuff, but another non-spell debilitation would be a nice addition too. HoW, halt, and SF share diminishing returns and shatter is non-replaceable so there can be a lot of idle time in pvp and not a lot of flavor In pve
I know debilitation aren’t really our thing and that’s cool if we will get other ways of compensating through thorn abilities and stuff, but another non-spell debilitation would be a nice addition too. HoW, halt, and SF share diminishing returns and shatter is non-replaceable so there can be a lot of idle time in pvp and not a lot of flavor In pve
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill (Depart Memories)
12/15/2017 09:12 AM CST
>>Sorry, I forgot to second another post... any engagement ability would be seriously welcomed. It’s sorely needed. Other guilds can kill things before I get to melee in pve. In pvp, an opponent can easily punish a paladin by sticking to missile range since retaliation requires melee in an even match and retreat is instant.
I agree Paladins need engagement management, but I think that fits better as a spell than a innate ability. Both in terms of lore concept (spells are better fit for conceptually complex abilities), development time (spells have many of the hooks I need already present), and gameplay balance (engagement modification is A Big Thing and needs to go through a standardized check and balance).
That said, yes, I reiterate that Paladins need to have access to it.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
I agree Paladins need engagement management, but I think that fits better as a spell than a innate ability. Both in terms of lore concept (spells are better fit for conceptually complex abilities), development time (spells have many of the hooks I need already present), and gameplay balance (engagement modification is A Big Thing and needs to go through a standardized check and balance).
That said, yes, I reiterate that Paladins need to have access to it.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
ASHAMAN1
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill (Depart Memories)
12/15/2017 09:24 AM CST
>>Armifer's stuff
From both a PVP and PVE perspective, I couldn't care less WHERE it comes in, I just want an engagement ability. While I'm quick to trumpet the less spellz moar abilities thang, I'd be 100% happy with it in spell form.
Samsaren
From both a PVP and PVE perspective, I couldn't care less WHERE it comes in, I just want an engagement ability. While I'm quick to trumpet the less spellz moar abilities thang, I'd be 100% happy with it in spell form.
Samsaren
SHIFT3
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill (Depart Memories)
12/15/2017 09:53 AM CST
> I agree Paladins need engagement management, but I think that fits better as a spell than a innate ability. Both in terms of lore concept (spells are better fit for conceptually complex abilities), development time (spells have many of the hooks I need already present), and gameplay balance (engagement modification is A Big Thing and needs to go through a standardized check and balance).
What about an AOE cyclic that pulls everything to melee with them (and away from others) up to the engagement cap? Kind of like an AOE charge and taunt merged into one?
Bringing this back on-topic, but they should also get glyphs that boost the power of these spells in exchange for secondary resource.
This feeds into a larger with magic terts as a whole (and defensive terts, but that's a completely differen't conversation). Magic is the core "I'm using my cool, iconic stuff" skillset, and terts just can't use that as effectively as magic primes. That's fine on paper, but in practice, it means these abilities are less cool and iconic, and more for funsies.
I think it would be really amazing if terts had ways to bridge this gap using their secondary resource to reduce the difficulty/increase effectiveness of the spell. This would help bridge the gap in the same way magic primes can bridge the gaps for their secondary/tertiary skillsets with magic (stronger buffs = smaller gaps)
Here's a few suggestions:
- Glyph of the Lion: TM spell accuracty buff, bonus applied to power contests.
- Glyph of the King: Augmentation spells are easier to cast, bonus applied to fear and charm contests.
- Glyph of the Scholar: All spells use less mana, bonus applied to magic and mind contests.
- Glyph of the Shieldbearer: Warding spells are easier to cast, bonus applied to reflexes and fortitude contests.
- Glyph of the Warden: Debilitation spells are easier to cast, bonus applied to willpower contests
- Glyph of the Healer: Utility spells are easier to cast, bonus applied to finese and spirit contests.
- Glyph of the Paladin: Passive ability with enough skill (100th?). Glyph Paladin applies all of the glyphs above, high application cost.
Gameplay:
- You'd likely put up king, Healer, and shieldbearer when buffing yourself before heading off to combat. Then you'd use a mix of Lion or Warden.
- You could have 1-2 up without much difficulty. They "flare" each time they do their thing, and that drains a little bit of you soul.
- Having 3-4 would be very difficult to maintain. All (or Paladin for convenience) would be a short-burst.
- There's a moderate RT to put up each glyph (reduced by guild skill). You dedicate a portion of your soul pool to fuel the glyph while it's up (reduced by guild skill). The cost is paid on activation (except paladin). If you don't have enough soul pool, the glyph doesn't activate. You can stop a glyph to refund a pro-rated portion of the soul you spent (with some loss in the transaction, reduced by guild skill).
- Paladin is the emergency button. It has no startup cost, but it is a continuous drain on the soul. You get no refund from stopping it.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill (Depart Memories)
12/15/2017 10:36 AM CST
Glyph Of ease - same functionality as current glyph when self cast. Increases armor hindrance when cast at others
Some sort of curse barrier spell or glyph, I believe, also makes loads of sense for a paladin.
Glyph of judgement- forces kneeling for all engaged. Could also be a spell I suppose but I’d rather have it as a glyph. Do we have a concept of how spells should be different from glyphs? Is it that a glyph is a more direct manifestation of soul stuff than magic? In other words, is the difference mostly semantic? Practically speaking, I think a number of spells and glyphs can go either way, but we have way more of the former.
Some sort of curse barrier spell or glyph, I believe, also makes loads of sense for a paladin.
Glyph of judgement- forces kneeling for all engaged. Could also be a spell I suppose but I’d rather have it as a glyph. Do we have a concept of how spells should be different from glyphs? Is it that a glyph is a more direct manifestation of soul stuff than magic? In other words, is the difference mostly semantic? Practically speaking, I think a number of spells and glyphs can go either way, but we have way more of the former.
FLINT-TIPPED
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/16/2017 12:30 AM CST
Not a paladin player but I want to weigh in on Glyph of Light. Yeah it's spellish but it seems Paladinly to light the way and actual dark mechanics are so freaking rare I don't mind them having the spell-like ability to light a room. Hope it stays.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Main_Page
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Main_Page
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/16/2017 06:09 AM CST
I still think 'make a light source' should be an AP spell. Maybe one that costs 0 slots and only trains magic to 50 ranks. Apprentice lvl difficulty.
CHIMERIAN
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/16/2017 07:46 AM CST
I agree, this does come in useful at random times, I would like to keep some type of light source, thank you.
- Felicini
- Felicini
2DUMBARSE
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/19/2017 11:14 AM CST
> Glyph of the Lion: TM spell accuracty buff, bonus applied to power contests.
> Glyph of the King: Augmentation spells are easier to cast, bonus applied to fear and charm contests.
> Glyph of the Scholar: All spells use less mana, bonus applied to magic and mind contests.
> Glyph of the Shieldbearer: Warding spells are easier to cast, bonus applied to reflexes and fortitude contests.
> Glyph of the Warden: Debilitation spells are easier to cast, bonus applied to willpower contests
> Glyph of the Healer: Utility spells are easier to cast, bonus applied to finese and spirit contests.
> Glyph of the Paladin: Passive ability with enough skill (100th?). Glyph Paladin applies all of the glyphs above, high application cost.
FWIW, as a paladin with TM relatively close to main weapons (i.e. I like TM/magic), I don't think magic skill buffs fit the theme too well. I'd like to see more non-magic combat utility and less focus on death than keeping the living from dying in combat and out (until they can find an empath). I think VoS, for instance, would function great as a glyph. I like VoS, but I feel like I have to remind people every 5 seconds to touch the sphere when they're dying. Tracing a glyph could solve that.
I'd also like to see stuff like to see more shield focus for offense. Shield slam should be in paladins' repertoire, but it's currently a terrible, last resort attack because shield offensive stats don't follow the same power:weight ratio as weapons and SLAM is a slow, unbalancing and fatiguing attack. How about a glyph that enhances shield stats (probably makes more sense to add this to DA) or a glyph that lowers the RT of slam by 1 and eliminates the -balance and -fatigue for 5 strikes or whatever number makes sense to prevent people from slamming exclusively? Maybe a glyph that adds status effects to shield slams?
> Glyph of the King: Augmentation spells are easier to cast, bonus applied to fear and charm contests.
> Glyph of the Scholar: All spells use less mana, bonus applied to magic and mind contests.
> Glyph of the Shieldbearer: Warding spells are easier to cast, bonus applied to reflexes and fortitude contests.
> Glyph of the Warden: Debilitation spells are easier to cast, bonus applied to willpower contests
> Glyph of the Healer: Utility spells are easier to cast, bonus applied to finese and spirit contests.
> Glyph of the Paladin: Passive ability with enough skill (100th?). Glyph Paladin applies all of the glyphs above, high application cost.
FWIW, as a paladin with TM relatively close to main weapons (i.e. I like TM/magic), I don't think magic skill buffs fit the theme too well. I'd like to see more non-magic combat utility and less focus on death than keeping the living from dying in combat and out (until they can find an empath). I think VoS, for instance, would function great as a glyph. I like VoS, but I feel like I have to remind people every 5 seconds to touch the sphere when they're dying. Tracing a glyph could solve that.
I'd also like to see stuff like to see more shield focus for offense. Shield slam should be in paladins' repertoire, but it's currently a terrible, last resort attack because shield offensive stats don't follow the same power:weight ratio as weapons and SLAM is a slow, unbalancing and fatiguing attack. How about a glyph that enhances shield stats (probably makes more sense to add this to DA) or a glyph that lowers the RT of slam by 1 and eliminates the -balance and -fatigue for 5 strikes or whatever number makes sense to prevent people from slamming exclusively? Maybe a glyph that adds status effects to shield slams?
SHIFT3
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/19/2017 03:54 PM CST
> 2DUMBARSE
I think that all sounds great. Honestly, all of those changes might be enough to shift my main to a paladin.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/20/2017 09:16 AM CST
Why wait? Come to the gray side. Paladins are awesome except for that one guy, Warbrolus.
SHIFT3
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/20/2017 10:21 AM CST
Because I'm currently enamored with traders and empaths :P I can only play so many at once before it feels like I lose a connection with any one character.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/26/2017 01:22 PM CST
More glyph ideas:
>WARDING:
>I want to remove its current function entirely and transform the slot into an anti-DFA ability.
Can this be expanded to all DFA-like (guild) spells/abilities and not just spells? In other words, anything that removes shield/parry from the calcs and bonuses evasion to compensate?
Glyph of FOCUS (NEW suggestion):
When traced on a target, it makes it more difficult for him to target the paladin with mundane ranged weapons similar to how GoW functions now (except can be traced before aim). ALSO, makes the target easier to hit with mundane ranged weapons. -- This would take GoW from barely used to staple in my repertoire since we have no ranged buff.
Glyph of TARGETING (NEW suggestion):
I really like this idea for group play. It's a variation of focus, but for targeted spells. It makes the paladin harder to target and makes the... tracee easier to target. The Glyph of Focus and Targeting are mutually exclusive. Maybe 100% effect for the paladin and 50% effect for everyone else.
>BONDING:
I want to remove its current function, but I have no idea what to replace it with yet.
How about making it the foundation for a person tracking system? Enables the paladin to locate a person on whom it's traced. It can report back important info, like health and whether the person is in danger/dead. Perhaps it could even facilitate an auto-matic dragging feature with the assistance of the guild or something. It would be even awesomer if we could use this ability to also bypass the touch requirement of VoS for the target (i.e. force the sphere to push it's built-up vitality to the target), and even have the sphere follow the traced individual. This would make bond an amazing triage tool.
>EASE:
>I'm nominally OK with its function, but wouldn't mind finding something to replace it with.
Like mentioned earlier in the thread, the regen is meh. I would use this more if it were a pulsing effect over some duration than a mediocre one-shot fatigue hit with long cooldown. Recommend adding concentration to aid spell casters.
>AUTO:
>I'm imagining a chance to auto-ward on DFA hit, based on guildskill. Never a sure thing, but scaling up to a decent chance to reactively anti-DFA a >surprise attack.
Love this.
>RENEWAL:
>Not touching Holy Weapons yet, so this will remain as it is with perhaps just the introduction of guildskill.
Glyph of REINFORCEMENT (NEW suggestion): Reduces the effects of acid and naphtha on worn armor and immunizes worn armor and held weapons to magical debilitation. This would be niche, but I don't think too niche. Plus, it seems appropriate.
Glyph of FORTITUDE (NEW suggestion): Self-traced. Below a certain vitality threshold, greatly diminishes the effects of incoming attacks at the expense of soul pool. An oh crap button.
>WARDING:
>I want to remove its current function entirely and transform the slot into an anti-DFA ability.
Can this be expanded to all DFA-like (guild) spells/abilities and not just spells? In other words, anything that removes shield/parry from the calcs and bonuses evasion to compensate?
Glyph of FOCUS (NEW suggestion):
When traced on a target, it makes it more difficult for him to target the paladin with mundane ranged weapons similar to how GoW functions now (except can be traced before aim). ALSO, makes the target easier to hit with mundane ranged weapons. -- This would take GoW from barely used to staple in my repertoire since we have no ranged buff.
Glyph of TARGETING (NEW suggestion):
I really like this idea for group play. It's a variation of focus, but for targeted spells. It makes the paladin harder to target and makes the... tracee easier to target. The Glyph of Focus and Targeting are mutually exclusive. Maybe 100% effect for the paladin and 50% effect for everyone else.
>BONDING:
I want to remove its current function, but I have no idea what to replace it with yet.
How about making it the foundation for a person tracking system? Enables the paladin to locate a person on whom it's traced. It can report back important info, like health and whether the person is in danger/dead. Perhaps it could even facilitate an auto-matic dragging feature with the assistance of the guild or something. It would be even awesomer if we could use this ability to also bypass the touch requirement of VoS for the target (i.e. force the sphere to push it's built-up vitality to the target), and even have the sphere follow the traced individual. This would make bond an amazing triage tool.
>EASE:
>I'm nominally OK with its function, but wouldn't mind finding something to replace it with.
Like mentioned earlier in the thread, the regen is meh. I would use this more if it were a pulsing effect over some duration than a mediocre one-shot fatigue hit with long cooldown. Recommend adding concentration to aid spell casters.
>AUTO:
>I'm imagining a chance to auto-ward on DFA hit, based on guildskill. Never a sure thing, but scaling up to a decent chance to reactively anti-DFA a >surprise attack.
Love this.
>RENEWAL:
>Not touching Holy Weapons yet, so this will remain as it is with perhaps just the introduction of guildskill.
Glyph of REINFORCEMENT (NEW suggestion): Reduces the effects of acid and naphtha on worn armor and immunizes worn armor and held weapons to magical debilitation. This would be niche, but I don't think too niche. Plus, it seems appropriate.
Glyph of FORTITUDE (NEW suggestion): Self-traced. Below a certain vitality threshold, greatly diminishes the effects of incoming attacks at the expense of soul pool. An oh crap button.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/26/2017 02:55 PM CST
Glyph of Sunder: Chance to apply stacking durability penalty (permanent or temporary) with successful smite.
Glyph of Exposure (Mutually exclusive wrt GoSunder): Chance to apply stacking stealth hindrance penalty with successful smite.
Possible replacement functionality for Glyph of Ease (not sure if OP) - removes the arm-wearing protection penalty for shields.
Glyph of Freedom: Replaces Protect Self, which is wonky and works only a fraction of the time. Kills movement impairing effects for 10 seconds and causes standing.
Glyph of Exposure (Mutually exclusive wrt GoSunder): Chance to apply stacking stealth hindrance penalty with successful smite.
Possible replacement functionality for Glyph of Ease (not sure if OP) - removes the arm-wearing protection penalty for shields.
Glyph of Freedom: Replaces Protect Self, which is wonky and works only a fraction of the time. Kills movement impairing effects for 10 seconds and causes standing.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
12/29/2017 07:45 AM CST
Glyph of Pacifism: Reactive calm. Anyone who attacks the paladin suddenly feels a large pang of remorse, effectively calming them. Any attack by the paladin will prematurely end the glyph.
I think reactive abilities are very appropriate, whether they're reactive debilitations such as HOW, or reactive abilities that buff the paladin in some way (e.g. successful attacks against the paladin trigger a minor balance boost).
I think reactive abilities are very appropriate, whether they're reactive debilitations such as HOW, or reactive abilities that buff the paladin in some way (e.g. successful attacks against the paladin trigger a minor balance boost).
2DUMBARSE
Re: Glyphs & Guildskill
01/02/2018 09:05 AM CST
Glyph of Punishment - This is a suggestion that fits the dark paladin theme. Guessing it would be taught by an individual NPC rather than the guild. Anyone on whom this glyph is traced is wracked by the guilt of his misdeeds to the point of literal pain (think: something like a panic attack). Being a sort of psychosomatic ailment, it doesn't cause vitality damage. However, it does cause kneeling and a substantial fatigue hit (20%?). Use of GoPunishment uses soul pool, like other abilities, but also causes a soul-hit. Not sure if it would fit, but perhaps it could also raise soul level if self-cast.
Glyph of Bonding (another useful alternative) - Creates a symbiotic link between a held weapon (with weight limit based on shield size) and worn shield. It transforms the shield, imbuing it with some of the weapon's properties. The weapon can't be used for the duration. Practically speaking, the shield takes the highest single damage stat of the weapon and bonuses either suitedness or agility, depending on the weapon. This would alleviate the problem with very bad shield damage stats and make for fun trying to figure out what's a good weapon/shield combo for GoBonding.
Glyph of Bonding (another useful alternative) - Creates a symbiotic link between a held weapon (with weight limit based on shield size) and worn shield. It transforms the shield, imbuing it with some of the weapon's properties. The weapon can't be used for the duration. Practically speaking, the shield takes the highest single damage stat of the weapon and bonuses either suitedness or agility, depending on the weapon. This would alleviate the problem with very bad shield damage stats and make for fun trying to figure out what's a good weapon/shield combo for GoBonding.
