Well if you get to 150th that's going to be one heck of a fall.

But it's not the fall that gets you. It's that sudden stop at the end.


-=Dirge. You gotta lava it.=-

>>I'm still waiting for an actual argument for this. So far, it's just been people mumbling to themselves.

The Paladin guild's "focus" not only includes restrictive mechanics similar to Barbarian magic and Empath damage, but justifies these mechanics on assumed morality, which Barbarians and Empaths do not. I don't think anyone has made a very firm argument for it because it's rather self-explanatory.

Part of the "problem" with Dark Paladins is that, to a large extent, it's a self-renewing problem because guilds accrue new members in two ways:

1) Players ignorant of the guild read up on the guild information or guild lore, become interested in some aspect of it, and try it out.

2) Players have a pre-existing character concept in mind and choose the one most closely matching said concept.

As I said, part of the reason there isn't this huge vocal demand for "Dark Paladins" is because both of these methods have been cut off. Reinforcing the idea that Dark Paladins don't exist makes it impossible for new players to become interested in the idea. Additionally, everyone who has - in the past - been interested in the idea never carried the banner long, as it is rather futile.

At least Necromancers have been promised for a long time. They will pay off... someday. Hoping to play a Dark Paladin could very well be a meaningless pursuit, so it's rather pointless to become extremely invested in the idea emotionally.
*******
A surge of intense heat lands a glancing strike to a gypsy marauder's verse!
A surge of intense heat lands a good hit to a morah vine's neck!

Behold the power of Bards: your verse shall be smitten.

<<The idea of a "Dark", "Fallen", or "Anti" -Paladin is so thoroughly indecisive that it's not a character concept so much as an excuse to do unPaladiny things as a Paladin.>>

Yeah, the concept of everyone being a follower of a god like Damaris just so they can being Non-Paladin Paladins worries me.

As to what a Paladin is, the moral police or warriors of the gods is not very clear cut in my eyes. I don't know what DR's definition of Holy is. If we are Holy warriors in the concept that Holy is only the "good" gods then I guess we would be more like the moral police then. If Holy is just to mean devotion to a god then the mechanics that penalize a Paladin for stealing/killing are inappropriate as one could choose a God that supports these activities.


Just as a note, not that it relates to DR at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin
Wiki seems to show Paladins as imperial palace guards, doesn't seem to have much to do with religion/gods.

Ackfer - Halfling in a Can, No Fillers Here!

>The idea of a "Dark... Paladin" is so thoroughly indecisive that it's not a character concept so much as an excuse to do unPaladiny things as a Paladin.

>The paladin is a holy knight, crusading in the name of good and order

>By definition and game restriction, paladins are always of the Lawful Good alignment

It barely takes two brain cells to bump together to realize this is the vision for Paladins that the original game designers intended to be "The Way" for Paladins in DR.

>I don't see why anyone looking to do an evil warlord type couldn't accomplish that by playing a Barbarian.

~ Sage Kougen Aensworth, Star Shaper of the Compact

Ruea says, "I swear, I'm forsaking Damaris and building an altar to you."

"I am Captain America (and so can you!)" - http://i25.tinypic.com/157m7a1.jpg

P.S. Just because you picked the wrong Guild doesn't make me a troll, Kolaisa. =( And yes, I also play a Paladin, so kindly take your personal problems to the conflict folder.

<<However, I would prefer our GMs use their limited resources to develop things that would benefit the majority of the current Paladin population instead of creating a Blackfire-like subculture just so we can claim a greater percentage of the player surveys.>>

Thilan:
I am not asking for GM resource time whatsoever. Merely having a discussion in the discussion folder.

<<Just like how a RL Cleric has little to do with battling the undead.>>

Please note that I prefaced with this does not correlate with DR.

<<I don't see why anyone looking to do an evil warlord type couldn't accomplish that by playing a Barbarian.>>

Maybe they like the abilities, skillset, and maybe they follow the theory that Paladins are devoted to gods and therefore not exclusive to the "good" gods.

Not sure why this discussion is being met with such resistance. I hardly believe that GMs would drop anything on their plate for this anyhoo.

Kougen:
<<By definition and game restriction, paladins are always of the Lawful Good alignment>>

Where is this from?




Ackfer - Halfling in a Can, No Fillers Here!

>>I am not asking for GM resource time whatsoever. Merely having a discussion in the discussion folder.

That was directed at DA, not you.

>>Please note that I prefaced with this does not correlate with DR.

Then what was the point of bringing it up?

>>Maybe they like the abilities, skillset, and maybe they follow the theory that Paladins are devoted to gods and therefore not exclusive to the "good" gods.

Which is why I suggested you read up on the planned faith system. It's designed to do exactly that. Beyond that, as I said I'd prefer to see development focused on things that a majority of the guild would be able to take advantage of.

>>Not sure why this discussion is being met with such resistance. I hardly believe that GMs would drop anything on their plate for this anyhoo.

It's being met with resistance because this comes up twice a year and all we do is go in circles.


~Thilan

>>[Ackfer] Wiki seems to show Paladins as imperial palace guards, doesn't seem to have much to do with religion/gods.

This description, to me, seems more in line with the Warrior Mage concept of the Path of Duty than anything especially Paladin anyways. Not that any Warrior Mage would agree... I ramble.

>> >>Please note that I prefaced with this does not correlate with DR.

>>[Thilan] Then what was the point of bringing it up?

We should not hesitate at using RL as an inspiration for material, as long as it does not directly clash with precedent set in IG lore. For instance, we might introduce a Paladin sect with a history of having been Emperors' personal bodyguards during Imperial era, and specializing today as personal bodyguards, rather than as magistrates, shields of the poor, crusaders, or the like.

Imagine what Empaths could do if they actually took some RL inspiration in their guild development. I mean, really: Moon Mages? Step aside!

>>[Thilan] However, I would prefer our GMs use their limited resources to develop things that would benefit the majority of the current Paladin population

That is precisely why I am asking questions.

I'm not asking these questions out of the hope that I can divine a path for Dark Paladins from them. I want material to work with to improve the guild as a whole, period. If that improvement means adding Dark Paladins, that will be as apparent to you as it is to me, once that material comes to light.

So once again, Thilan and others, I ask: what is a Paladin? What should he be? You've pointed out the medieval Christian legends of France and Britain; how about a more general one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Worthies

Or some different questions, though it sounds annoyingly GvG (so don't be, when you answer): what differentiates the Paladin from the Barbarian? From the Cleric? From the Empath? Not only mechanically, which is obvious, but ideologically. Tell me why a Paladin is not a Barbarian, other than a preference for heavy armor and a willingness to sling spells.

>>[Thilan] It's being met with resistance because this comes up twice a year and all we do is go in circles.

I would love to get some links to these circular discussions. Because I haven't seen them, and I was looking.

>>[J'Lo] A Dark Paladin will still bring down justice upon your head, it just might come a little more quickly and harshly than what the Light Paladin will do.

In which case, there is no reason for a Light Paladin to exist at all.

===

Here are some RL inspirations you may find useful. Or not.

Augustine:

"I became evil for no reason. I had no motive for my wickedness except wickedness itself. It was foul, and I loved it. I loved the self-destruction, I loved my fall, not the object for which I had fallen but my fall itself. My depraved soul leaped down from your firmament to ruin. I was seeking not to gain anything by shameful means, but shame for its own sake."

Aquinas:

"For if the intention of the lawgiver is fixed on true good, which is the common good regulated according to Divine justice, it follows that the effect of the law is to make men good simply. If, however, the intention of the lawgiver is fixed on that which is not simply good, but useful or pleasurable to himself, or in opposition to Divine justice; then the law does not make men good simply, but in respect to that particular government. In this way good is found even in things that are bad of themselves: thus a man is called a good robber, because he works in a way that is adapted to his end."

Abelard:

"In fact we say that an intention is good, that is, right in itself, but that an action does not bear any good in itself but proceeds from a good intention. Whence when the same thing is done by the same man at different times, by the diversity of his intention, however, his action is now said to be good, now bad."


---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin

Been awhile since I posted something like this but let me see if I can remember it correctly. Most of my notes are on my old pc at home, but let me impart some past DR history concerning dark paladins. Initially with Beren there was RP going on that revolved around this concept when the initial indication of a paladin council existed. This was during the time of Leth, Crossing, and Haven only....Lagen and Theren were not yet open.

Upon the opening of Theren a mini plot began to develope with a GMNPC callled Tamerlane (note the single 'm'). This at first was strictly a paladin who was having arguements with the council in the way they treated both the guild and punishment of people who do crimes. A lapse in time occured and we jump to the opening of Shard when the next sighting happened. This time the GMNPC was named Tammerlane (note the two 'm's) and bore the title of Dark Paladin.

During the opening of Shard a mini-plot with Tammerlane was progressing in that he was searching for ancient paladin relics that the council was hidding. Fully disregarding the guild entirely he stated himself as a Dark Paladin - one who still follows the gods but not the council/guild. He was the FIRST paladin to be able to use ALL paladin magic on pc's (aka smite foe) when we as pc's couldn't.

I at the time Rp'ed that I too did not like the council and expressed interest in what they were hidding from us. Tammerlane took my vow that I would not harm him or his minions and assist him if he would not harm me. Don't ask me how, but I never once got attacked by his invasions or him after that.


Things disappeared and years lapsed again. The islands open up and one day Tammerlane appears again on Aesry. This time he indicates he has located a relic's whereabouts and is in the process of getting it. The relic is in the caves and Tammerlane was working with the dhvargers to retrieve it. He remembered the pact with me and still honored it. Note he still wore the Dark Paladin title and was still of the paladin guild when examined. Since then I personally havn't seen him again so I have no idea what happened to the storyline.


History aside. Now the idea of Dark and Light paladins has always existed in DR and has been done with multiple events. It was the players decisions to break it down into the four categories, but from a history perspecitive Dark Paladin means you are against the guild but still follow the gods where as a Paladin was that you still followed the guild.

That was essentially how I played Ellsdragon. Over the years due to GM changes and concept changes I had to change my RP as well. At this point prior to my sabatical from the game I RPed as a knight for higher that does not believe in the guild, but will not outrightly oppose it to be considered a heretic/dark paladin. I worshipped Botolof but in the sense of a sleeper. This means that I would be normal and helpful to not give myself away until I was called into duty of my god and lead his armies.

>>So when is your sabatical over?

>>You have been gone way to long...

I've actually be in the game this past week. Mornings before work and some odd hours on the weekend. Nothing major though, mostly been working on my settings and files since I got a new comp.

Just I've been waiting for new stuff since I was getting kinda bored with the inconsistant RP and slow developement. So I've been playing two other games while waiting essentially. Just kinda happened out that its been a year...

>>If I don't disagree with the council but follow botolf (I don't but for the sake of this), I would be a regular Paladin. So the definition through history as you perceive it is the agreeance with the council.


Correct. At that time and based upon in-game lore/events you would still be considered a normal paladin, since you are following the council of the guild regardless of your god of worship choice. You would only have been considered Dark if you outright disavowed the council.

It was the players on the forums that came up with the more D&D version of Dark, Fallen, Light, and Gray paladins based upon gods more specifically in hopes of expanding the paladin RP and guild when moonies first got the idea of sects. This is when arguements for doing evil deeds, but still using paladin abilities first started.

Why was Beren ever ousted again?

So, mostly, a Dark Paladin would be a non-necromantic version of a Philosopher of the Knife?


J'Lo, I'm a ranger.. I'd believe anything.....
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