i wasn't going to respond because i think its all been said, but i do wish i was more like the amish folks that reached out to that ass's family.

they truly have what can be wonderful about religion in them.

I dont.

so i say to you that i believe you are an apologist for some of the most brutal organizations in existence today.

that your fear of them is so profound that you mitigate it by siding with them.

and that i feel sorry for you because it must be a painful condition.

:oP Ragran

You guys have drifted way off topic. I also recommend you transfer it to an appropriate folder. At the very least, change the subject heading.

Nothing against either of you, or your debate. Just the wrong place.

Thanks for your time.


-=Dirge. We've been kicking ash for centuries!=-

<<The "I was merely following orders" defense not standing up refers ONLY to things that a person should know ahead of time are ILLEGAL. Such as murder.>>

I know what you're trying to say, sir, but I find it difficult to differentiate between the premeditated killing of an individual and murder. I realize that killing an enemy is not considered murder, but that is an artificial construction created to legalize violence.

<<So, in fact, "our troops" did not get us into this conflict.>>

Sir, I have to point out one thing: if every trooper refused to go to Afghanistan or Iraq, we would by necessity not be battling those countries. Orders only work so long as the majority follow them. Of course, military men are trained to follow orders, but the point remains that each individual soldier made a choice to join the military and made a choice to follow the order shipping them out to their destination. To say otherwise is, in my mind, to claim that a soldier has no free will and is merely a tool of the government. And that, my friend, is a scary thought.

<<As for the rest of it.. I repect your right to offer your opinion. In fact, that's why I served in the Army.. to stand in defense of a person's right to give their opinion without fear.>>

And that's part of the reason why I respect those with the courage to sign up for the military. I may disagree with some of the actions taken by the United States military, but that does not mean that I don't respect the people who are willing to lay their lives down to protect those who are not.

Drongol's Player


PC also stands for "Paying Customer."

<< Saddam Hussein sent an assassin after George Bush Sr. George W. Bush now has a chance to get revenge on the man who tried to kill his daddy.>>

I take you listen to a lot of Air America because I would love to see any sort of evideince that acaully supports this absurd view.

<<B: Oil. They have it, we need it.>>

Yeah because we have piliged so much of it and its had such a huge impact on US oil prices. Oh wait we are still just as tied to the world fluction of oil prices as we were before any sort of attack on Iraq took place so I belive we can chack that up to yet another fact you pulled out of thin air with no acaully basis in fact.

<<III: The United States needed to find a convenient fly to squash in order to teach those "bad guys" a lesson. After all, North Korea really isn't much of an option, since they might nuke us.>>

Where do you get this stuff? With so many acual real reasons to be against the war why keep throwing out these made up ones with no acaul basis in fact.


And then of course blaming the common solider while at the same time admiting you are a coward and hiding because the feedoms that the common solider fought and often died for just so you slander them is really the saddest thing. I can certainly see why you insist on being called Drongol's player now.

______________________________________

Events make the land live and breath over the normalcy of everyday hunting,foraging ect. It is the RP aspect that brings out people to live the game.

GM Shakahn on events in prime

Gang,

Interesting discussion aside, this is DR Conflicts, no Global.. sheesh.




Annwyl
Senior Board Monitor

If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing Senior Board Monitor DR-Annwyl@play.net, or Message Board Supervisor DR-Cecco@play.net.

A couple of last comments. Then I drop out of this discussion because as the Board monitor stated... we've gone WAAAAAAY off topic here.

>>I find it difficult to differentiate between the premeditated killing of an individual and murder.

I understand the conundrum and can even sympathize somewhat. I resolved this seeming inconsistancy for myself early on in my military career or I wouldn't have stayed to retirement. You have every right to hold this opinion and live your life according to it, ie. service in the military isn't for everyone. Having started my career at the tail-end of the draft, I can tell you from experience, I'd much rather have a volunteer who CHOSE to serve in the foxhole next to me, rather than a draftee. I support your right to choose NOT to serve and more power to you.

>>if every trooper refused to go to Afghanistan or Iraq, we would by necessity not be battling those countries.

I understand your point and agree that on a purely intellectual basis that seems true. However, what you are forgetting is that choosing to disobey legal orders (whether you agree with them or not) results in an armed MOB, not an Army. If we are going to have an effective military force, it MUST be trained to obey orders, even ones an individual disagrees with so long as it is not patently illegal. Then WE as citizens choose the civilian leadership that gives the orders to the military. Don't agree with the orders given to the Army.. change the civilian leadership. Don't advocate that the ARMY choose which orders to follow or not. That's not how it is supposed to work in our system.

In addition, I can tell you SPECIFICALLY when and where I decided to make the Army a career. I was in my dorm room in college, shooting the bull with fellow students about ROTC. One of my classmates piped up with the statement "I don't agree with serving in the Army in foreign countries. I say we should stick within our own borders and let the world do what they want. If some other country then invaded the US, I would run right down and join up." I thought to myself.. Ohh boy, guess I better stand a watch on the wall cause if everyone else decided not to get involved until we got invaded.. that would be waaaaaay too late then.

>>And then of course blaming the common solider while at the same time admiting you are a coward

I will assume this was said in the heat of the arguement, but I take exception with your misquoting of Drongo's player. I believe he said words to the effect that he was not willing to place himself in a situation to be shot at and that some could call that being a coward. Never did he say or "admit" he was a coward. Nor do I personally think he is a coward. Coming down on Drongol's player for saying he wasn't willing to serve in the military is uncalled for. Everyone has a right to choose for themselves. Not everyone is willing to place their lives on the line and submit to military discipline in order to serve. That doesn't make them wrong or bad or anything... other than realistic enough to know the military is not for them. Nothing derogatory should be construed from a statement saying a person was not willing to serve in the military. It is NOT for everyone, nor do I think a person is wrong or bad for making that choice.

I stood my tour on the "wall" specifically to give folks like Drongol's player the ability to CHOOSE not to stand on the wall with me. Please don't belittle him for exercising that choice.

Ok, I will get off my soap box now. My apologies for dragging this way off topic discussion out one post longer. I've had my say, and I respect the right of everyone here that spoke up on either side to say their piece. But I think we can let this die out now before it gets pulled.

Redarch
Dwarf with an Axe.. Watch your toes!

I want to make it clear that i'm totally against the war. And i think Bush will go down in history as one of our most incompetent presidents.

I was merely pointing out that things are more complicated than "drongol's player" was suggesting.

:oP Ragran

heh

:oP Ragran

<<WYATTB2 wins the award for most mangled spelling of a word in this thread! Congratulations!>>

I think the only thing I can really take umbringe with in that statement is that you resticted it to this thread.


As we all know, Ramadan is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Mohammad rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing to lull him back to sleep.

umbringe

:oP Ragran

LOL! I didn't see the recent version of those movies but I loved the old ones. Nooo Cato! No! (Cato leaps out of the frige towards Inspector Clouseau.)

<<Little late but... Does this remind anyone else of Inspector Jaques Clouseau* getting ambushed by Cato**?>>

*Bush and republicans
**Democrats, even ohio woke up....finally.

Robo



A dust bunny furtively tugs a label from Niteshiver's clothing that reads, "Closet Conservative".

Alright, back on track please or drop it topic.

~Maece

The great state of Vermont will not apologize for its cheese!"

~Thank You for Smoking~