I've had a really hard time noticing any difference attacking a target with the shatter shield skill debuff on it. Against the creatures I fight (inters and wyverns), I definitely feel the no-shield effect for the first few seconds, but when that drops off so does the effect I feel. Against players, it's the same thing. I dismissed the player combat part as people just going with a parry stance as a strategy when fighting paladins, but I've had a hard time noticing any significant difference even against other paladins.
I also thought maybe it's hard to see the effects of defensive debuffs in 3.x combat, but I tend to feel other guilds' defensive debuffs more (e.g. male). Has anyone else had this experience?
2DUMBARSE
DR-RAESH
Re: Shatter ancillary effect
04/08/2015 03:18 PM CDT
>>I definitely feel the no-shield effect for the first few seconds, but when that drops off so does the effect I feel.
What's the bug here? Why would the debuff last longer than the spell (Which causes the debuff)?
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
What's the bug here? Why would the debuff last longer than the spell (Which causes the debuff)?
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Shatter ancillary effect
04/08/2015 03:25 PM CDT
>>What's the bug here? Why would the debuff last longer than the spell (Which causes the debuff)?
Shatter has two effects, right? The first one that lasts the duration of the spell is a direct shield usage debuff. The second (much much shorter) effect is the inability to use shield at all. I think the problem being highlighted is that once the second (short term) effect wears off, the effect of the primary skill debuff isn't doing much.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Shatter has two effects, right? The first one that lasts the duration of the spell is a direct shield usage debuff. The second (much much shorter) effect is the inability to use shield at all. I think the problem being highlighted is that once the second (short term) effect wears off, the effect of the primary skill debuff isn't doing much.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DR-RAESH
Re: Shatter ancillary effect
04/08/2015 03:33 PM CDT
Oh, I see what you're saying. Some sort of weird maths going on there but, no, the shield skill debuff isn't ending early.
I can't promise it's being overly effective (Depending on mana investment, level of success, etc etc) but that's kind of the nature of skill debuffs - particularly skill debuffs in systems with a large number of other factors being fed into them.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
I can't promise it's being overly effective (Depending on mana investment, level of success, etc etc) but that's kind of the nature of skill debuffs - particularly skill debuffs in systems with a large number of other factors being fed into them.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
2DUMBARSE
Re: Shatter ancillary effect
04/08/2015 04:03 PM CDT
>I can't promise it's being overly effective (Depending on mana investment, level of success, etc etc) but that's kind of the nature of skill debuffs - particularly skill debuffs in systems with a large number of other factors being fed into them.
That's what I'm trying to touch on (badly). I just don't really feel the shield skill debuff effect, the second spell effect. The spell isn't replaceable and lasts... I believe over a minute at cap, so the shield skill debuff aspect is an important part of the spell but isn't very impressive (to me?). The difference is small enough that if I happen to land any more attacks than usual, I can't tell if the spell is making me more accurate with my attacks or it's RNG doing its thing.
I rarely cast shatter under 100 mana because I cast it for the first effect (no shield for ~8-2 second cast = ~6 seconds max), which has a significant mana cost to land. Makes sense considering it's a very desirable effect. The unfortunate side effect is a longer duration of the second, -shield effect, which I don't usually notice and can't replace with another cast.
That's what I'm trying to touch on (badly). I just don't really feel the shield skill debuff effect, the second spell effect. The spell isn't replaceable and lasts... I believe over a minute at cap, so the shield skill debuff aspect is an important part of the spell but isn't very impressive (to me?). The difference is small enough that if I happen to land any more attacks than usual, I can't tell if the spell is making me more accurate with my attacks or it's RNG doing its thing.
I rarely cast shatter under 100 mana because I cast it for the first effect (no shield for ~8-2 second cast = ~6 seconds max), which has a significant mana cost to land. Makes sense considering it's a very desirable effect. The unfortunate side effect is a longer duration of the second, -shield effect, which I don't usually notice and can't replace with another cast.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Shatter ancillary effect
04/16/2015 02:53 PM CDT
What if shatter instead increased the target's armor hindrance as the secondary effect? It'd be cool to see more ways of affecting opponents through their armor.
I know I'm the only one posting in this thread, which may devalue it. At least, I'd wonder why nobody else is raising the issue if I were on the outside... I have talked to other paladins who have told me they also don't feel the shield rank debuff, though, so I don't think I'm crazy anymore. Definitely welcome other thoughts, including disagreements.
To phrase my issue differently, I feel far more positive effects, from my perspective, casting halt or stun foe on my target than casting shatter (after the initial 1 or 2 hits from shatter's first effect).
I know I'm the only one posting in this thread, which may devalue it. At least, I'd wonder why nobody else is raising the issue if I were on the outside... I have talked to other paladins who have told me they also don't feel the shield rank debuff, though, so I don't think I'm crazy anymore. Definitely welcome other thoughts, including disagreements.
To phrase my issue differently, I feel far more positive effects, from my perspective, casting halt or stun foe on my target than casting shatter (after the initial 1 or 2 hits from shatter's first effect).
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Shatter ancillary effect
04/16/2015 03:24 PM CDT
>>What if shatter instead increased the target's armor hindrance as the secondary effect? It'd be cool to see more ways of affecting opponents through their armor.
Maybe also make the armor temporarily fragile, aka debuff to protection/absorption.
Can also hit natural armor, too!
Kinda like CoZ, but AFAIK CoZ doesn't hit natural armor but hits weapons, too, so they're still kinda different.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Maybe also make the armor temporarily fragile, aka debuff to protection/absorption.
Can also hit natural armor, too!
Kinda like CoZ, but AFAIK CoZ doesn't hit natural armor but hits weapons, too, so they're still kinda different.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Shatter ancillary effect
04/16/2015 07:17 PM CDT
If we're spitballing down that road, I think I'd rather something akin to HP/DR/MoA honestly.
Samsaren
Samsaren
IAMTHEWALRUS
Re: Shatter ancillary effect
08/31/2015 03:27 PM CDT
>>Against the creatures I fight (inters and wyverns), I definitely feel the no-shield effect for the first few seconds, but when that drops off so does the effect I feel.
Completely a novice question I grant you, however, does shatter has an effect on creatures that don't carry a shield? I eschewed the spell based on the fact I don't PvP and have no interest in it, and I simply don't hunt the vast majority of creatures that carry a shield. But if the spell works on wyverns, and therefore other unarmed creatures, it may be worth having a look at.
- Anuind Lyndon
When naming your holy weapon consider the following: Everyone has a Holy Avenger or a Divine Vengeance. Why not go with something your foes will never accept the shame of being smote by, "The Fuzzy Kitten".
Completely a novice question I grant you, however, does shatter has an effect on creatures that don't carry a shield? I eschewed the spell based on the fact I don't PvP and have no interest in it, and I simply don't hunt the vast majority of creatures that carry a shield. But if the spell works on wyverns, and therefore other unarmed creatures, it may be worth having a look at.
- Anuind Lyndon
When naming your holy weapon consider the following: Everyone has a Holy Avenger or a Divine Vengeance. Why not go with something your foes will never accept the shame of being smote by, "The Fuzzy Kitten".
ABSOLON
Re: Shatter ancillary effect
08/31/2015 03:43 PM CDT
All creatures above a certain level all have natural 'shields' even if they're not actually wielding one so it has more value once you reach that tier. I don't recall exactly when that happens... I think creature level 100+ or skill level 500 or something. Someone with better memory than me can probably say more accurately.
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GORTEOUS
Re: Shatter ancillary effect
09/08/2015 04:45 PM CDT
>> All creatures above a certain level all have natural 'shields' even if they're not actually wielding one so it has more value once you reach that tier. I don't recall exactly when that happens... I think creature level 100+ or skill level 500 or something. Someone with better memory than me can probably say more accurately.
I have never seen or heard this before. By my understanding, there is no universal metric for what has a 'natural' shield. Critter stats and skills are completely dependent on the whims of their maker.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
I have never seen or heard this before. By my understanding, there is no universal metric for what has a 'natural' shield. Critter stats and skills are completely dependent on the whims of their maker.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
ABSOLON
Re: Shatter ancillary effect
09/08/2015 05:41 PM CDT
GORTEOUS
Re: Shatter ancillary effect
09/08/2015 05:53 PM CDT
'rule of thumb' is not universal - there are several top tier critters designed in the past few years that do not have natural shields.
I get the impression that 'rule of thumb' here is even less meaningful than it sounds, though.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
I get the impression that 'rule of thumb' here is even less meaningful than it sounds, though.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
BRYCOLE83
Re: Shatter ancillary effect
09/08/2015 06:05 PM CDT
>> 'rule of thumb' is not universal - there are several top tier critters designed in the past few years that do not have natural shields.
>> I get the impression that 'rule of thumb' here is even less meaningful than it sounds, though.
Raesh was posting about this very recently that creatures should have natural armor + natural shield the higher the circle. Can you post an example of a higher creature not having a natural shield?
>> I get the impression that 'rule of thumb' here is even less meaningful than it sounds, though.
Raesh was posting about this very recently that creatures should have natural armor + natural shield the higher the circle. Can you post an example of a higher creature not having a natural shield?
GORTEOUS
Re: Shatter ancillary effect
09/08/2015 07:15 PM CDT
Ice Archons, Telga Oreks, Xala'shar Magus, Conjurer, Archimage, Archer. There's more but those are off the top of my head.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
