>Sebestyen: Probably belongs in some other folder, but I am going to rant here since it is on my mind and I have to go soon. As long as I have played my Paladin I have run the range of disappointed to enraged by Paladin development/adjustments/whatever it is the GM's are doing. There have been a few bright spots, but all in all, I am having less and less fun playing him with each change that comes out. At first I was excited about 3.0, but I really have a hard time getting myself to log on anymore to push numbers or find something fun to do. It might just be me. But I find frustration and lack of development for the guild for years rather discouraging. I have no real alts.. might try that, I don't know.
>>Lennon: It's not just you. I came back after nearly a decade gone and notice no real development for the guild at all. I know one of the GM's has mentioned that Paladins are slated for some major development, but I have no idea what that means.
>>>Samsaren: Gotta say - I disagree with you guys. 3.0 was an absolutely amazing step forward for the Paladin guild as a whole. Armor MATTERS, Shield is more then a slight damage soak and tdps. Yes, there's been a few changes that aren't gold plated awesome for us (RW nerf), but overall we're in an amazingly better place then we were say, 2-3 years ago.
I preached a lot about the benefits 3.0 had on the paladin guild, but... I do have a complaint about this in 3.1, but it's multi-faceted and mostly specific to offense and defense in PvP and invasions; PvE is all about .kill at appropriate critter(s) that train you so I don't use it to gauge fun factor.
There's no question that paladins are king of damage absorption; we can take punishment like no other. However, I'd argue damage avoidance and barriers still trump mitigation and clearly we're built for mitigation over avoidance. I anticipate a barrier nerf will help, but that's only part of the equation.
On the other hand, our offense is way down. I feel like this is where most of the complaints regarding lack of paladin dev strike a chord. Paladin combat is currently all about trying to get to melee and trying to hit/damage your opponent while he uses all his tools to keep you from fighting back, at range, on the ground and/or fully debilitated. Against a few guilds, I feel like my purpose in combat is to serve as a target dummy; to serve as little more than a boss critter that can barely fight back. In invasions, creatures that are a decent challenge rarely live long enough for me to get to melee and swing my sword once. Sadly, I've never been so bored with paladin combat as I've been since 3.1 hit.
This is all more pronounced at higher skill/circle where players who can buff all their tertiary defenses, debilitate opponents at 15-20% and buff their primary offense at 20%, and get around shield and/or armor. The premier 'combat' guilds right now are those with the best suite of debilitations and offensive skill set. Defensive skill set placement means so little when you can buff them all and debilitate your opponent to the ground, literally and figuratively. The "weakest" defensive guilds can debuff opponents' offense, buff all their defenses and keep you imbalanced for the duration of the fight, further limiting offense. My counter debilitation options are woefully limited and frequently don't work well in this era of ranged combat where more than half of my undiminished stun is wasted getting to melee if I'm lucky and even stun-shatter-throws can feel like a joke when I manage to set them up perfectly.
2DUMBARSE
ASHAMAN1
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/17/2014 11:56 AM CDT
I sympathize, not discounting fights where we're outclassed - there's a few matches that if the other player isn't a chowder head we're in trouble. Clerics and War Mages I find to be the biggest issues personally.
Samsaren
Samsaren
SEBESTYEN64
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/17/2014 01:03 PM CDT
PvP has never been my focus, and Sebestyen is not trained for it at all. I have no illusions as to the deficiencies of my character in those situations, so this has little to do with my current lack of enthusiasm. Warb made good points about the benefits of 3.0 and I too was hopeful. Samsaren is also correct that there are things for the guild that are way better now. But after only a few spars I realized that ranged attack and debilitation made them decidedly un-fun for me. What is the point of being able to take a lot of damage if I can never attack, or if I do get to melee, my balance is so tanked from stuns or other disablers, that I may as well just stand there. Meanwhile, my opponent retreats, and does his/her ranged attacks. Rinse and repeat. Hence, I do not spar anymore.
Anti-stun does not prevent the stun, just lets me shake it off quicker but I still have tanked balance. Truff's Rally helps even less than it did before. In a group fight, it takes some effort to get close enough to get lead up to help the group. Then, when I am inevitably killed, they don't even get that. All I seem to do is take hits and absorb damage which has its place, but it does not make for an exciting fight on my end.
PvE is still alright, but yeah.. takes a bit to get to melee before everyone has killed the critters off. What I find really tapping my enthusiasm is a lack of fun and interactive events (adventure if you will). The micro-events I run and attend are fun little get-togethers, but they only go so far. There is little in the way of a common cause for adventurers any more. One would have thought Necromancers might have spurred that with Paladins leading the charge, but most are apathetic or even supportive of necromancy, with those against them in the minority.
As far as Paladin development, I guess part of the problem is that I have seen so much potential (auras from way back, Dart's event that died, etc..) never come to fruition. Sure.. the icons are ok, and the protect abilities are pretty awesome, but.. 11 years and that's it? (to be fair, I am forgetting some small additions, but they are so small as to not really matter or count in my mind as 'development') I suppose if the talk had been "play as things are, you will get nothing" perhaps I would not be so discouraged. Even at the guild festival, while there are some new things for Paladins, compare that to all the thief/necro shops. Should be shadow-fest, necro-mart, or bad guy bazaar. Thank you, though, for the GM's that did add some nifty Pallie stuff. I get that GM's work on what they are interested/passionate about and it is just a sad fact that no one is jazzed about Paladins. Including me.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Anti-stun does not prevent the stun, just lets me shake it off quicker but I still have tanked balance. Truff's Rally helps even less than it did before. In a group fight, it takes some effort to get close enough to get lead up to help the group. Then, when I am inevitably killed, they don't even get that. All I seem to do is take hits and absorb damage which has its place, but it does not make for an exciting fight on my end.
PvE is still alright, but yeah.. takes a bit to get to melee before everyone has killed the critters off. What I find really tapping my enthusiasm is a lack of fun and interactive events (adventure if you will). The micro-events I run and attend are fun little get-togethers, but they only go so far. There is little in the way of a common cause for adventurers any more. One would have thought Necromancers might have spurred that with Paladins leading the charge, but most are apathetic or even supportive of necromancy, with those against them in the minority.
As far as Paladin development, I guess part of the problem is that I have seen so much potential (auras from way back, Dart's event that died, etc..) never come to fruition. Sure.. the icons are ok, and the protect abilities are pretty awesome, but.. 11 years and that's it? (to be fair, I am forgetting some small additions, but they are so small as to not really matter or count in my mind as 'development') I suppose if the talk had been "play as things are, you will get nothing" perhaps I would not be so discouraged. Even at the guild festival, while there are some new things for Paladins, compare that to all the thief/necro shops. Should be shadow-fest, necro-mart, or bad guy bazaar. Thank you, though, for the GM's that did add some nifty Pallie stuff. I get that GM's work on what they are interested/passionate about and it is just a sad fact that no one is jazzed about Paladins. Including me.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
GORTEOUS
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/17/2014 01:53 PM CDT
Melee advancement needs to happen a lot faster. Locking people down in a room after using ranged weapons has negated the benefits of the hit-and-run strategy. There's literally no reason why advancement still takes 11 seconds, and if there were - it could be scaled accordingly.
I say cut advancement time in half, maybe even a third. It would give combat more intensity and solve a lot of problems with melee users sucking so hard.
Having fought the highest circle Paladin in prime being able to do effectively nothing to each other, I would say that it is at least equally plausible that accuracy and damage in general are not scaling properly.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
I say cut advancement time in half, maybe even a third. It would give combat more intensity and solve a lot of problems with melee users sucking so hard.
Having fought the highest circle Paladin in prime being able to do effectively nothing to each other, I would say that it is at least equally plausible that accuracy and damage in general are not scaling properly.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
ASHAMAN1
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/17/2014 02:21 PM CDT
>>Having fought the highest circle Paladin in prime being able to do effectively nothing to each other, I would say that it is at least equally plausible that accuracy and damage in general are not scaling properly.
3.0 I actually felt bad for a barb at level against me. Not only was it a win for Team Awesome, I'd rarely even take a damaging hit. 3.1 has completely flipped that around to where, at level, against a Paladin or Barbarian its a 'who's buffs end first'. Between the RW change to melee only, and Auto-Stance, I can't pose a credible threat at level via ranged attacks to get a barb to stance out of parry. No shield stance makes shatter valueless. After that its secondary weapon vs prime parry/secondary evasion, Stuns vs roars, and maneuvers all around.
Warb and I fighting was a hilarious bout of "who's more patient", and the few matches I've had against barbs my weight its the same. Non-prime offense vs Prime defence is just a rough situation. If anything, THAT, and Engagement are the real handicaps to Paladins at the moment. If you really look at the fights we suffer against, it highlights that issue. Clerics (Sick, Soul Bond, Halo), War Mages (Vertigo, Tremor, IP). Half the issue is that diminishing returns on stuns doesn't effect the knockback/down.
Samsaren
3.0 I actually felt bad for a barb at level against me. Not only was it a win for Team Awesome, I'd rarely even take a damaging hit. 3.1 has completely flipped that around to where, at level, against a Paladin or Barbarian its a 'who's buffs end first'. Between the RW change to melee only, and Auto-Stance, I can't pose a credible threat at level via ranged attacks to get a barb to stance out of parry. No shield stance makes shatter valueless. After that its secondary weapon vs prime parry/secondary evasion, Stuns vs roars, and maneuvers all around.
Warb and I fighting was a hilarious bout of "who's more patient", and the few matches I've had against barbs my weight its the same. Non-prime offense vs Prime defence is just a rough situation. If anything, THAT, and Engagement are the real handicaps to Paladins at the moment. If you really look at the fights we suffer against, it highlights that issue. Clerics (Sick, Soul Bond, Halo), War Mages (Vertigo, Tremor, IP). Half the issue is that diminishing returns on stuns doesn't effect the knockback/down.
Samsaren
2DUMBARSE
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/17/2014 03:19 PM CDT
Definitely not counting fights where my opponent’s skill ranks are significantly higher or fights where I outclass my opponent. Our damage is actually really good when we outclass our opponent, but I’m guessing that’s the case for every guild.
Of the even matched fights in which I’ve participated, the cliffs notes usually go something like…
Paladin v. barb – haven’t fought an even match barb in 3.1 but I’ve watched a few barb fights with others. I’m guessing this can still go either way if I can land SF and shatter and the barb wants to melee.
Paladin v. bard – haven’t had an opportunity to try it, but I’m itching to.
Paladin v. cleric – try to prep halt/shatter out of sight (because IT) for a drive by cast, then try to charge at pole before the halo trigger and HYH+CoZ kicks in and we get SB’ed, Sicked, DR’ed, Male’ed, AE + other TM spell…ed, etc. I’ve begun to stance down midway through these fights if the initial AE takes less than 50-70% of my vitality. Even in situations where I can land throws, they do pitiful damage. Sadly I neglected XB in 2.0 because training it was so boring, but I’m guessing the outcome would be no different since most clerics don’t just stand there doing nothing while I aim at them.
Paladin v. moon mage – prep SF and wait until the MM leaves RF to MB/rend. Then hope the stun-shatter-throw lands or my opponent isn’t using WD. Otherwise, prepare for a painfully long match of cat and mouse where I try to get to melee and spend a lot of time waiting for the next rend/MB so RF breaks. Fortunately, this one isn’t usually too bad since MM’s best defense is secondary and they can only buff evasion. This can turn into a paladin target dummy match, though.
Paladin v. paladin – game of chicken; first one to get bored and stance down to 0 loses.
Paladin v. ranger – wait for the web with SF prepped, protect self on the web, advance and prep shatter. Hope you have an opportunity to cast and attack before EM kicks in and you rarely see him again except as he debilitates and takes pointless dual-loaded shots at you from hiding. This can easily turn into one of those paladin target dummy situations. Fortunately, we’re pretty good at defending against arrows so we can suffer through it for a good LONG time before anyone wins. Fun.
Paladin v. thief – I’m having a hard time gauging this one because thieves are still getting their feet wet and/or they don’t tell me how close a match they actually are. Fortunately, they have to get to melee to use most of their ambushes and backstab so it might be a fun and exciting match once everyone gets used to new khri/ambushes/magic.
Paladin v. warrior mage – great buffs and tremor and vertigo pretty much guaranty you’ll never land an attack even if you get to melee and manage to survive the offensive barrage of cyclic + TM + BG long enough to attack.
Yeah… fights are twitchy and don’t always work out like that, but they don’t vary too much.
We have two debilitation spells. One can only be used once every two minutes or so and the other, SF or halt, is on a diminishing returns timer. Since getting to melee, assuming that’s even an option, takes ~12 seconds, it’s stupid to use even a half-diminished SF unless you’re already at melee and want to extend your stun a little, or you’re looking for the coup de grace charge. Since we can’t buff our secondary skill set ranged weapons, ranged is usually an ineffective option. These are glaring holes I’m hoping will get filled at some point through ranged buffs, more debilitations and/or engagement-reducing abilities.
Of the even matched fights in which I’ve participated, the cliffs notes usually go something like…
Paladin v. barb – haven’t fought an even match barb in 3.1 but I’ve watched a few barb fights with others. I’m guessing this can still go either way if I can land SF and shatter and the barb wants to melee.
Paladin v. bard – haven’t had an opportunity to try it, but I’m itching to.
Paladin v. cleric – try to prep halt/shatter out of sight (because IT) for a drive by cast, then try to charge at pole before the halo trigger and HYH+CoZ kicks in and we get SB’ed, Sicked, DR’ed, Male’ed, AE + other TM spell…ed, etc. I’ve begun to stance down midway through these fights if the initial AE takes less than 50-70% of my vitality. Even in situations where I can land throws, they do pitiful damage. Sadly I neglected XB in 2.0 because training it was so boring, but I’m guessing the outcome would be no different since most clerics don’t just stand there doing nothing while I aim at them.
Paladin v. moon mage – prep SF and wait until the MM leaves RF to MB/rend. Then hope the stun-shatter-throw lands or my opponent isn’t using WD. Otherwise, prepare for a painfully long match of cat and mouse where I try to get to melee and spend a lot of time waiting for the next rend/MB so RF breaks. Fortunately, this one isn’t usually too bad since MM’s best defense is secondary and they can only buff evasion. This can turn into a paladin target dummy match, though.
Paladin v. paladin – game of chicken; first one to get bored and stance down to 0 loses.
Paladin v. ranger – wait for the web with SF prepped, protect self on the web, advance and prep shatter. Hope you have an opportunity to cast and attack before EM kicks in and you rarely see him again except as he debilitates and takes pointless dual-loaded shots at you from hiding. This can easily turn into one of those paladin target dummy situations. Fortunately, we’re pretty good at defending against arrows so we can suffer through it for a good LONG time before anyone wins. Fun.
Paladin v. thief – I’m having a hard time gauging this one because thieves are still getting their feet wet and/or they don’t tell me how close a match they actually are. Fortunately, they have to get to melee to use most of their ambushes and backstab so it might be a fun and exciting match once everyone gets used to new khri/ambushes/magic.
Paladin v. warrior mage – great buffs and tremor and vertigo pretty much guaranty you’ll never land an attack even if you get to melee and manage to survive the offensive barrage of cyclic + TM + BG long enough to attack.
Yeah… fights are twitchy and don’t always work out like that, but they don’t vary too much.
We have two debilitation spells. One can only be used once every two minutes or so and the other, SF or halt, is on a diminishing returns timer. Since getting to melee, assuming that’s even an option, takes ~12 seconds, it’s stupid to use even a half-diminished SF unless you’re already at melee and want to extend your stun a little, or you’re looking for the coup de grace charge. Since we can’t buff our secondary skill set ranged weapons, ranged is usually an ineffective option. These are glaring holes I’m hoping will get filled at some point through ranged buffs, more debilitations and/or engagement-reducing abilities.
ISHARON
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 06:30 PM CDT
>>Sebestyen64: As far as Paladin development, I guess part of the problem is that I have seen so much potential (auras from way back, Dart's event that died, etc..) never come to fruition. Sure.. the icons are ok, and the protect abilities are pretty awesome, but.. 11 years and that's it? (to be fair, I am forgetting some small additions, but they are so small as to not really matter or count in my mind as 'development') I suppose if the talk had been "play as things are, you will get nothing" perhaps I would not be so discouraged. . . . I get that GM's work on what they are interested/passionate about and it is just a sad fact that no one is jazzed about Paladins. Including me.
I can't comment on how Paladins fare in Combat 3.1, because I have not done much hunting since 3.1 went live. However, what Sebestyen said about guild development resonates with me.
I rolled my Paladin at the end of 2004, and it feels like not much has changed with the guild since then. I'm not referring to game-wide changes that affect everyone -- many of those are great -- but Paladin-specific development.
The only major Paladin-specific release that I can think of is Sacred Insight. That is a neat system, but it is so limited in application that I've only used it a few times. For the most part, it feels like our guild is simply being patched up to comply with current standards (for example, our spellbook), rather than actively developed by anyone who is passionate about Paladins and has a vision for them.
The Paladins' Guild is an orphan grown past the age where anyone is interested in adoption. I've seen guild advocates come and go, with interesting ideas that go nowhere and story lines in perpetual limbo. I know it's often said that not having a guild advocate doesn't mean that your guild won't be developed, but I can't help but think that if there were any GMs who had more than a passing interest in our guild, Paladins wouldn't always be on the back burner. (Maybe I've just been spoiled by all the good things that have happened to Empaths since Melete became advocate.)
I must confess that it was pretty disheartening to learn that Traders will get magic before anyone will even take a hard look at our outdated systems.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
I can't comment on how Paladins fare in Combat 3.1, because I have not done much hunting since 3.1 went live. However, what Sebestyen said about guild development resonates with me.
I rolled my Paladin at the end of 2004, and it feels like not much has changed with the guild since then. I'm not referring to game-wide changes that affect everyone -- many of those are great -- but Paladin-specific development.
The only major Paladin-specific release that I can think of is Sacred Insight. That is a neat system, but it is so limited in application that I've only used it a few times. For the most part, it feels like our guild is simply being patched up to comply with current standards (for example, our spellbook), rather than actively developed by anyone who is passionate about Paladins and has a vision for them.
The Paladins' Guild is an orphan grown past the age where anyone is interested in adoption. I've seen guild advocates come and go, with interesting ideas that go nowhere and story lines in perpetual limbo. I know it's often said that not having a guild advocate doesn't mean that your guild won't be developed, but I can't help but think that if there were any GMs who had more than a passing interest in our guild, Paladins wouldn't always be on the back burner. (Maybe I've just been spoiled by all the good things that have happened to Empaths since Melete became advocate.)
I must confess that it was pretty disheartening to learn that Traders will get magic before anyone will even take a hard look at our outdated systems.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
LENNONJON
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 07:14 PM CDT
<<I rolled my Paladin at the end of 2004, and it feels like not much has changed with the guild since then. I'm not referring to game-wide changes that affect everyone -- many of those are great -- but Paladin-specific development.>>
Yeah that was what I was getting at. I left the game right about when you were joining it. When I left there were a lot of plans for development, e.g., auras. After a 10-year absence I've seen some small changes, but nothing to the extent I see in other guild (Bards aren't jokes anymore!). Guess all we can really do is hope that we truly are slated for some major development.
--Just a Squire
Yeah that was what I was getting at. I left the game right about when you were joining it. When I left there were a lot of plans for development, e.g., auras. After a 10-year absence I've seen some small changes, but nothing to the extent I see in other guild (Bards aren't jokes anymore!). Guess all we can really do is hope that we truly are slated for some major development.
--Just a Squire
ASHAMAN1
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 08:09 PM CDT
>>I must confess that it was pretty disheartening to learn that Traders will get magic before anyone will even take a hard look at our outdated systems.
As a long time Paladin I'm actually pretty okay with this statement. Traders, as currently served in the era of all guilds being full, viable beings, NEED magic. We don't NEED a revamp on the same level. We've got gaps, and some old mechanics holding us back, but its more or less a workable guild. Could we use some love - yes, are we at the level of Traders and Magic, no.
Samsaren
As a long time Paladin I'm actually pretty okay with this statement. Traders, as currently served in the era of all guilds being full, viable beings, NEED magic. We don't NEED a revamp on the same level. We've got gaps, and some old mechanics holding us back, but its more or less a workable guild. Could we use some love - yes, are we at the level of Traders and Magic, no.
Samsaren
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 08:30 PM CDT
<Traders, as currently served in the era of all guilds being full, viable beings, NEED magic.
While I'm sure everyone, myself included, agrees that all guilds should be full, viable beings ... I'm not sure we're all in agreement as to what that means. Personally, I don't think that Traders should be just as viable at combat as Barbarians, or Paladins, or Warrior Mages. Consequently, I don't really see a need for traders to have TM or Debil spells (or magic in general, really.) I'd rather see trade-specific and economical aspects of the game become fuller and more robust, giving Traders (and possible other Lore primaries) their own special areas in which to excel. These would be areas in which more combat-oriented guilds would struggle. Building that sort of interdependence is part of what makes a game engaging. Should every guild be viable? Yes. Should every guild be viable at the same activities? No. Choosing a guild should be more than just choosing a primary method of engaging in combat.
That said, I completely agree that Traders need development more than Paladins do. Although really what I mean by that is that Lore activities need development more than Weapon/Armor/TM/Debil activities do. The Armor skillgroup is in a terrible spot, yes, but it's nowhere near as bad as the current state of the game's economy. And that economy is the primary reason why the Traders' guild needs so much work (fix one, fix the other.)
While I'm sure everyone, myself included, agrees that all guilds should be full, viable beings ... I'm not sure we're all in agreement as to what that means. Personally, I don't think that Traders should be just as viable at combat as Barbarians, or Paladins, or Warrior Mages. Consequently, I don't really see a need for traders to have TM or Debil spells (or magic in general, really.) I'd rather see trade-specific and economical aspects of the game become fuller and more robust, giving Traders (and possible other Lore primaries) their own special areas in which to excel. These would be areas in which more combat-oriented guilds would struggle. Building that sort of interdependence is part of what makes a game engaging. Should every guild be viable? Yes. Should every guild be viable at the same activities? No. Choosing a guild should be more than just choosing a primary method of engaging in combat.
That said, I completely agree that Traders need development more than Paladins do. Although really what I mean by that is that Lore activities need development more than Weapon/Armor/TM/Debil activities do. The Armor skillgroup is in a terrible spot, yes, but it's nowhere near as bad as the current state of the game's economy. And that economy is the primary reason why the Traders' guild needs so much work (fix one, fix the other.)
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 08:35 PM CDT
Crafting has been an excellent start, by the way, and it's my primary activity on my Trader.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 08:36 PM CDT
Its been decided, thankfully, that the era of Combat vs Non-Combat guilds is over. Beyond that, its been decided that all guilds shall have equal footing on skillsets, ergo, Traders need magic. I'm all for the above.
Taken from that point of view - Traders NEED a whole buncha work before our Dated Yet Functional stuff gets a needed overhaul.
Samsaren
Taken from that point of view - Traders NEED a whole buncha work before our Dated Yet Functional stuff gets a needed overhaul.
Samsaren
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 09:05 PM CDT
<Combat vs Non-Combat guilds
I don't think I'd have narrowed it down to quite such an extreme, personally. I see it more in the light of skillsets. Primary skillset should say a lot about a guild. Lore primaries, and weapon/armor tertiaries (only one guild is both) should probably not have to worry about combat so much, if at all. Needing to bash in skulls in order to become a better trader just doesn't make much sense. Granted, I can see where the appeal is given that combat is the game's prime and most well-developed area. That and plenty of guilds should always leave the option to train those optional skills in combat areas, but for some guilds it just doesn't need to be necessary.
We've got this giant square hole called combat that's been grown and developed and cared for quite well over the years, relatively speaking, and all of the square peg guilds have been able to fit into this square hole very well. It's tempting to try and make other types of pegs fit into that hole, too, rather than developing the appropriately shaped holes for them.
Even the relative difficulty of circling is noticeable in guilds that don't revolve around combat. Trading is easily the most difficult skill in the game to train. I've been bouncing around guilds a lot. Astrology and Empathy are tough, too. But circling as a Paladin, War Mage, or Barbarian? Easy-peasy, life in the fast lane. Lore and surival skills are an afterthought at best, and so all that's really required is to stand around and swat at mobs for hours until you're ready to circle again (maybe once in a while I had to touch up those afterthought skills.) Not everyone wants to do that. Not everyone should have to do that. That's why some guilds are Lore or Survival primary, or in the case of Moonies or Clerics Magic primary can be used in more interesting ways than discovering new ways to melt faces.
What's wrong with developing skills that don't revolve around crushing hundreds of skulls? What's wrong with developing guilds around activities other than combat?
At least it doesn't seem like traders will be required to learn TM/Debil. For that much I am grateful. There's still the weirdness that the guild is armor secondary, though ... which brings us back to developing the armor skillgroup! It does really need an overhaul.
I don't think I'd have narrowed it down to quite such an extreme, personally. I see it more in the light of skillsets. Primary skillset should say a lot about a guild. Lore primaries, and weapon/armor tertiaries (only one guild is both) should probably not have to worry about combat so much, if at all. Needing to bash in skulls in order to become a better trader just doesn't make much sense. Granted, I can see where the appeal is given that combat is the game's prime and most well-developed area. That and plenty of guilds should always leave the option to train those optional skills in combat areas, but for some guilds it just doesn't need to be necessary.
We've got this giant square hole called combat that's been grown and developed and cared for quite well over the years, relatively speaking, and all of the square peg guilds have been able to fit into this square hole very well. It's tempting to try and make other types of pegs fit into that hole, too, rather than developing the appropriately shaped holes for them.
Even the relative difficulty of circling is noticeable in guilds that don't revolve around combat. Trading is easily the most difficult skill in the game to train. I've been bouncing around guilds a lot. Astrology and Empathy are tough, too. But circling as a Paladin, War Mage, or Barbarian? Easy-peasy, life in the fast lane. Lore and surival skills are an afterthought at best, and so all that's really required is to stand around and swat at mobs for hours until you're ready to circle again (maybe once in a while I had to touch up those afterthought skills.) Not everyone wants to do that. Not everyone should have to do that. That's why some guilds are Lore or Survival primary, or in the case of Moonies or Clerics Magic primary can be used in more interesting ways than discovering new ways to melt faces.
What's wrong with developing skills that don't revolve around crushing hundreds of skulls? What's wrong with developing guilds around activities other than combat?
At least it doesn't seem like traders will be required to learn TM/Debil. For that much I am grateful. There's still the weirdness that the guild is armor secondary, though ... which brings us back to developing the armor skillgroup! It does really need an overhaul.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 09:13 PM CDT
>What's wrong with developing skills that don't revolve around crushing hundreds of skulls? What's wrong with developing guilds around activities other than combat?
Return on investment. Players (most of them) spend their time in combat. They want every skill to be combat trainable because it trains the most skills. It's how you generate power, wealth, and prestige. It's also what most players want, and when there are only 2-4 hundred online at a time, you can't really waste GM time with super-niche stuff only 50 people would use.
Paraphrased from Raesh' explanation on why Paladin Sects weren't built.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
Return on investment. Players (most of them) spend their time in combat. They want every skill to be combat trainable because it trains the most skills. It's how you generate power, wealth, and prestige. It's also what most players want, and when there are only 2-4 hundred online at a time, you can't really waste GM time with super-niche stuff only 50 people would use.
Paraphrased from Raesh' explanation on why Paladin Sects weren't built.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 09:30 PM CDT
>>What's wrong with developing skills that don't revolve around crushing hundreds of skulls? What's wrong with developing guilds around activities other than combat?
...crafting 3.0?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
...crafting 3.0?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 09:37 PM CDT
<...crafting 3.0?
That's what I mentioned earlier. Crafting has been excellent! My trader's primary activity. It's still not really a viable way to train trading, even though it's probably the most viable way to train trading. XD The guild is probably in the single roughest spot in the game, despite the addition of crafting.
That's what I mentioned earlier. Crafting has been excellent! My trader's primary activity. It's still not really a viable way to train trading, even though it's probably the most viable way to train trading. XD The guild is probably in the single roughest spot in the game, despite the addition of crafting.
DR-MELETE
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 09:42 PM CDT
>>What's wrong with developing skills that don't revolve around crushing hundreds of skulls? What's wrong with developing guilds around activities other than combat?
It's less about forcing everyone into a combat role, and more about not pigeonholing entire classes.
Further, I think a quick look at the various guilds' abilities will reveal that a guild's strengths and weaknesses are still taken into account when developing that guild's spells and abilities. There are probably some exceptions that got grandfathered in, but in general (at least recently), we've been committed to ensuring that spells and abilities are thematically appropriate.
>>Return on investment.
This is also something to take into account.
Combat and combat-related systems have probably had the most GM time chucked at them over the years. Even if the entire current dev staff turned over tomorrow, that would almost certainly continue to be true. There have been cool non-combat related abilities created, but typically they have much fewer hours invested in them, and their maintenance has been inconsistent. See: Pearl diving, archaeology, the task system, and I'm sure there are more. Even if I spent the next year developing a cool new non-combat system, there's unfortunately no way to guarantee that it would be maintained after I am gone. See: the horse and boat systems.
Crafting is an awesome notable exception to this rule, but in general I think it's a good thing that we're past the days of barring certain guilds from meaningful participation in combat, since I think combat and its related systems are really among the crowning jewels of DragonRealms. Or the rambling medieval palace that each new King keeps adding to, until it's a drafty labyrinth that no one has an accurate floor plan for, but, you know, we love it anyway.
Melete
Nature, it seems, is the popular name
for milliards and milliards and milliards
of particles playing their infinite game
of billiards and billiards and billiards.
It's less about forcing everyone into a combat role, and more about not pigeonholing entire classes.
Further, I think a quick look at the various guilds' abilities will reveal that a guild's strengths and weaknesses are still taken into account when developing that guild's spells and abilities. There are probably some exceptions that got grandfathered in, but in general (at least recently), we've been committed to ensuring that spells and abilities are thematically appropriate.
>>Return on investment.
This is also something to take into account.
Combat and combat-related systems have probably had the most GM time chucked at them over the years. Even if the entire current dev staff turned over tomorrow, that would almost certainly continue to be true. There have been cool non-combat related abilities created, but typically they have much fewer hours invested in them, and their maintenance has been inconsistent. See: Pearl diving, archaeology, the task system, and I'm sure there are more. Even if I spent the next year developing a cool new non-combat system, there's unfortunately no way to guarantee that it would be maintained after I am gone. See: the horse and boat systems.
Crafting is an awesome notable exception to this rule, but in general I think it's a good thing that we're past the days of barring certain guilds from meaningful participation in combat, since I think combat and its related systems are really among the crowning jewels of DragonRealms. Or the rambling medieval palace that each new King keeps adding to, until it's a drafty labyrinth that no one has an accurate floor plan for, but, you know, we love it anyway.
Melete
Nature, it seems, is the popular name
for milliards and milliards and milliards
of particles playing their infinite game
of billiards and billiards and billiards.
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 09:51 PM CDT
The vast majority of people are playing a game that has weapons, armor, shields, and magics of destruction to use said weapons, armors, shields, and magics. Now I'm not saying all, but MOST all go into combat at least a little. It makes sense that what is developed is what most all spend their time utilizing.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 09:53 PM CDT
<It's less about forcing everyone into a combat role, and more about not pigeonholing entire classes.
I absolutely agree with this. That's sort of what I've been saying: don't force things on people. If someone joins the Traders' or Empaths' guild (as two of many examples) they probably did so because they're not terribly interested in melting faces. Some might be, sure, but I do think it's important to have some guilds that don't have this as a requirement. Just like it's important to keep some guilds knee-deep in combat, like Barbarians.
<in general I think it's a good thing that we're past the days of barring certain guilds from meaningful participation in combat
I agree with this, too, with the exception of the Empaths! ( :P Melete. Grumble grumble grumble, couldn't resist, sorry.)
<Pearl diving, archaeology,
I've never even heard of these two ...
I absolutely agree with this. That's sort of what I've been saying: don't force things on people. If someone joins the Traders' or Empaths' guild (as two of many examples) they probably did so because they're not terribly interested in melting faces. Some might be, sure, but I do think it's important to have some guilds that don't have this as a requirement. Just like it's important to keep some guilds knee-deep in combat, like Barbarians.
<in general I think it's a good thing that we're past the days of barring certain guilds from meaningful participation in combat
I agree with this, too, with the exception of the Empaths! ( :P Melete. Grumble grumble grumble, couldn't resist, sorry.)
<Pearl diving, archaeology,
I've never even heard of these two ...
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 10:02 PM CDT
>>Some might be, sure, but I do think it's important to have some guilds that don't have this as a requirement. Just like it's important to keep some guilds knee-deep in combat, like Barbarians.
Except Traders are armor secondary, so there's some expectation for them to be in combat.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Except Traders are armor secondary, so there's some expectation for them to be in combat.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 10:16 PM CDT
<Except Traders are armor secondary, so there's some expectation for them to be in combat.
Yeah, I've never understood why they're armor secondary. In this respect, I suppose that's where giving traders magic would make some significant sense, especially considering how the guild as a whole would no doubt be very interested in the creation and sale of magical devices (which would of course necessitate some skill at identifying said devices.) It'd make much more sense as a secondary than armor. Unless some sort of utility skills are added to the armor skillgroup that might actually make sense for a guild built around the concept of bartering? I have no idea what those might be, though ...
Yeah, I've never understood why they're armor secondary. In this respect, I suppose that's where giving traders magic would make some significant sense, especially considering how the guild as a whole would no doubt be very interested in the creation and sale of magical devices (which would of course necessitate some skill at identifying said devices.) It'd make much more sense as a secondary than armor. Unless some sort of utility skills are added to the armor skillgroup that might actually make sense for a guild built around the concept of bartering? I have no idea what those might be, though ...
2DUMBARSE
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 10:36 PM CDT
Traders had magic teased about 8 months prior to 3.0 release and are the only ones still not in the system. Paladins have had a couple of little things teased for years, but nothing of that scale. We function fine under the 3.x umbrella even if 3.1 was a bit of a [indirect] kick in the teeth. Plus, devs have a pretty good idea of where they want traders. Paladins... not so much. I hate to say it because Paladin is my favorite guild and one of the few I've enjoyed playing for more than a few months but Traders were the logical choice for the next big overhaul/update. Bright side: GM posts would suggest our turn is on the horizon.
SEBESTYEN64
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 11:08 PM CDT
<<Traders, as currently served in the era of all guilds being full, viable beings, NEED magic.
I have heard trader players talking about this new "viability." Combat skills being required was not well received, and magic requirements are not that highly anticipated. Some, I imagine are not even played anymore because of this. Traders trade, fighters fight, magic users magic. I have no idea what their boards talk about, I don't read them. I have no idea if this is general consensus, but it is a small sample that I have heard.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
I have heard trader players talking about this new "viability." Combat skills being required was not well received, and magic requirements are not that highly anticipated. Some, I imagine are not even played anymore because of this. Traders trade, fighters fight, magic users magic. I have no idea what their boards talk about, I don't read them. I have no idea if this is general consensus, but it is a small sample that I have heard.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
APATHETICSMILE
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 11:16 PM CDT
>> Combat skills being required was not well received
Was there a time when they weren't armor secondary?
Was there a time when they weren't armor secondary?
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/18/2014 11:26 PM CDT
<Was there a time when they weren't armor secondary?
Unless they switched and then switched back while I was out, no.
Unless they switched and then switched back while I was out, no.
ISHARON
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/19/2014 01:06 AM CDT
>>Ashaman1: Traders NEED a whole buncha work before our Dated Yet Functional stuff gets a needed overhaul.
Maybe it's because I don't actually play a Trader, but I don't see them as being in urgent need of "a whole buncha work." Sure, their combat abilities could use some work, but when it comes to the primary identity of that guild, they're on pretty solid footing. (They've gotten some pretty cool releases, such as player-owned shops, not to mention greatly expanded potential in the crafting system.)
No one even seems to know what the primary identity of our guild is. ("There's no room for Paladins" to do a lot of the things that have traditionally defined the class, because those roles have been given to Clerics.) That feels like a more pressing issue to me, but then again, that's probably because I play a Paladin and not a Trader.
I guess I'll just keep waiting for "eventually" to happen. In the meantime, there's always my Empath.
>>Stellarmagus: Yeah, I've never understood why they're armor secondary.
Because every guild gets two secondary skillsets, and there weren't many choices that made thematic sense. (They're lore primary. Being NMUs, magic had to be one of their tertiary skillsets. That leaves survival, armor, and weapons.)
I guess Traders' skillsets could be switched around, but I think the GMs would rather avoid that after so many years.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Maybe it's because I don't actually play a Trader, but I don't see them as being in urgent need of "a whole buncha work." Sure, their combat abilities could use some work, but when it comes to the primary identity of that guild, they're on pretty solid footing. (They've gotten some pretty cool releases, such as player-owned shops, not to mention greatly expanded potential in the crafting system.)
No one even seems to know what the primary identity of our guild is. ("There's no room for Paladins" to do a lot of the things that have traditionally defined the class, because those roles have been given to Clerics.) That feels like a more pressing issue to me, but then again, that's probably because I play a Paladin and not a Trader.
I guess I'll just keep waiting for "eventually" to happen. In the meantime, there's always my Empath.
>>Stellarmagus: Yeah, I've never understood why they're armor secondary.
Because every guild gets two secondary skillsets, and there weren't many choices that made thematic sense. (They're lore primary. Being NMUs, magic had to be one of their tertiary skillsets. That leaves survival, armor, and weapons.)
I guess Traders' skillsets could be switched around, but I think the GMs would rather avoid that after so many years.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
2DUMBARSE
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/19/2014 09:12 AM CDT
>No one even seems to know what the primary identity of our guild is.
I think that's the crux of it, Isharon. They changed traders' identity two years ago, which is probably why it's the next big project now. Should that question have been answered for paladins before traders? Idunno.
Another part of it is lack of even a part time advocate IMO. I think that's a big part of the reason paladins have received less attention than others over the years and have become less relevant thematically as clerics have received more consistent dev. I know there's a move away from advocates, but it certainly seems like guilds that still have at least a part time advocate tend to get attention sooner. The simplest explanation is there's someone who knows the code and can step up when there's guild-specific work to do.
I think that's the crux of it, Isharon. They changed traders' identity two years ago, which is probably why it's the next big project now. Should that question have been answered for paladins before traders? Idunno.
Another part of it is lack of even a part time advocate IMO. I think that's a big part of the reason paladins have received less attention than others over the years and have become less relevant thematically as clerics have received more consistent dev. I know there's a move away from advocates, but it certainly seems like guilds that still have at least a part time advocate tend to get attention sooner. The simplest explanation is there's someone who knows the code and can step up when there's guild-specific work to do.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/19/2014 10:04 AM CDT
I'd say it's less that we don't know what the primary identity of the Paladins are, and more that there's near unanimous agreement on both GM and Player side that the primary identity no longer works.
While I take liberties with the fiction of the game sometimes, when we go toward issues like "Should Traders have magic?" or "What should the new Paladin identity be?" that requires a much longer process and the input of a lot of people. It was two or three years from when I first thought "Maybe we can give Traders Lunar magic," before it actually became something we announced to players.
Of course that time line isn't inviolate, so please don't say I'm telling you to wait two or three years, but it's there to emphasize that we take drastic changes in guild direction seriously.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
While I take liberties with the fiction of the game sometimes, when we go toward issues like "Should Traders have magic?" or "What should the new Paladin identity be?" that requires a much longer process and the input of a lot of people. It was two or three years from when I first thought "Maybe we can give Traders Lunar magic," before it actually became something we announced to players.
Of course that time line isn't inviolate, so please don't say I'm telling you to wait two or three years, but it's there to emphasize that we take drastic changes in guild direction seriously.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
2DUMBARSE
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/19/2014 11:47 AM CDT
I honestly feel paladins don't need a change in direction as drastic as traders. I really like our systems and those that were teased by past GMs (e.g. auras, to borrow Seb's example) but never came to fruition. As much as I've loved training my new paladin this time around more than when I first tried it forever ago when lying in rats under encumbrance in full plate was the norm, every paladin system I've earned access to has felt incomplete.
Sacred Insight, a way to perceive people in unique ways, was awesome until I realized... well, graverobbing is less of a thing these days. Why can't I perceive other stuff like necromancers' taint (I came back to DR from hiatus when the necro guild was released) or the number of charges on my holy weapon or the purity of another paladin's soul? SI could have some great RP value.
Holy weapon is still among my favorite things about the guild. The idea of having one weapon that grows with you... So much potential, but the story starts and ends at circle 50 when you get it. I'd love so much to be able to customize it to make it a spell battery or do other things that've been suggested. Holy shield as a 100th circle quest? <3
Glyphs... I use all of them and all are different than communes with the exception of glyph of mana. I love glyphs but they also stop at 50. If I closed my eyes and threw a rock at the screen in the suggestions folder, I'd probably hit a glyph suggestion.
Protect is one of the coolest unique abilities in the game, but there are only three of them and they're spread really far apart. It has the potential for solo uses as well (e.g. protect self). Protect (person) TM? Protect self damage? Protect along with lead are two abilities that will always give me purpose at the head of invasion defense and other group combat.
Lead is still probably the most amazing group ability in the game with tons of potential but the story starts and ends at circle 2. I mean, it grows with you in strength but that's about it. And it does nothing if there's another paladin leading your group.
Smite, although a shell of its former self, is still a great ability and has development potential.
Part of me is irrationally afraid that a paladin review will move us away from some of those abilities because they're deemed a bad fit or require an extensive rewrite even though they are all abilities that, for the most part, nobody else has. They are what makes this guild unique for me. They're underdeveloped and in some cases buggy (esp. protect) but have tons of potential to get us away from this semi-functional god-warrior paradigm. Add active armor stuff and endurance in their somewhere, and fill in a few spellbook and storyline gaps and we have something truly fun/unique/interesting.
Sacred Insight, a way to perceive people in unique ways, was awesome until I realized... well, graverobbing is less of a thing these days. Why can't I perceive other stuff like necromancers' taint (I came back to DR from hiatus when the necro guild was released) or the number of charges on my holy weapon or the purity of another paladin's soul? SI could have some great RP value.
Holy weapon is still among my favorite things about the guild. The idea of having one weapon that grows with you... So much potential, but the story starts and ends at circle 50 when you get it. I'd love so much to be able to customize it to make it a spell battery or do other things that've been suggested. Holy shield as a 100th circle quest? <3
Glyphs... I use all of them and all are different than communes with the exception of glyph of mana. I love glyphs but they also stop at 50. If I closed my eyes and threw a rock at the screen in the suggestions folder, I'd probably hit a glyph suggestion.
Protect is one of the coolest unique abilities in the game, but there are only three of them and they're spread really far apart. It has the potential for solo uses as well (e.g. protect self). Protect (person) TM? Protect self damage? Protect along with lead are two abilities that will always give me purpose at the head of invasion defense and other group combat.
Lead is still probably the most amazing group ability in the game with tons of potential but the story starts and ends at circle 2. I mean, it grows with you in strength but that's about it. And it does nothing if there's another paladin leading your group.
Smite, although a shell of its former self, is still a great ability and has development potential.
Part of me is irrationally afraid that a paladin review will move us away from some of those abilities because they're deemed a bad fit or require an extensive rewrite even though they are all abilities that, for the most part, nobody else has. They are what makes this guild unique for me. They're underdeveloped and in some cases buggy (esp. protect) but have tons of potential to get us away from this semi-functional god-warrior paradigm. Add active armor stuff and endurance in their somewhere, and fill in a few spellbook and storyline gaps and we have something truly fun/unique/interesting.
CARAAMON
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/19/2014 12:40 PM CDT
>Holy weapon is still among my favorite things about the guild. The idea of having one weapon that grows with you... So much potential, but the story starts and ends at circle 50 when you get it. I'd love so much to be able to customize it to make it a spell battery or do other things that've been suggested. Holy shield as a 100th circle quest? <3
>Smite, although a shell of its former self, is still a great ability and has development potential.
I know the grass is greener and all that, but I'd love to steal these two for the Barbarian guild.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
>Smite, although a shell of its former self, is still a great ability and has development potential.
I know the grass is greener and all that, but I'd love to steal these two for the Barbarian guild.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
2DUMBARSE
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/19/2014 01:56 PM CDT
>I know the grass is greener and all that, but I'd love to steal these two for the Barbarian guild.
Not to derail, but I've posted about weapon and armor specializations that grow with mastery skill in another thread. In other words, something like slotted perks that do stuff like giving small accuracy or damage bonuses or reduced crit miss chance when using certain weapons. I think those would be more appropriate for barbs than holy weapons and armor per se. I like the idea of other types of weapon customizations for barbs, too, but I don't think it should be limited to one weapon, like holy weapon.
Not to derail, but I've posted about weapon and armor specializations that grow with mastery skill in another thread. In other words, something like slotted perks that do stuff like giving small accuracy or damage bonuses or reduced crit miss chance when using certain weapons. I think those would be more appropriate for barbs than holy weapons and armor per se. I like the idea of other types of weapon customizations for barbs, too, but I don't think it should be limited to one weapon, like holy weapon.
SEBESTYEN64
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/20/2014 11:44 AM CDT
I would agree with Warb's post. No need for a change in direction, just..filling out what we have. All of our current abilities seem to just stop. Excellent points all around.
I dunno.. I have been pondering some suggestions and might put together a post as I hate to just complain without possible solutions. It would be broad based (more of a potential vision of the guild) and encompass many other suggestions on these boards so may not be useful without some digging. Hopefully there is a GM out there that has saved some of the best ideas from the boards in little folders for future use.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
I dunno.. I have been pondering some suggestions and might put together a post as I hate to just complain without possible solutions. It would be broad based (more of a potential vision of the guild) and encompass many other suggestions on these boards so may not be useful without some digging. Hopefully there is a GM out there that has saved some of the best ideas from the boards in little folders for future use.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
PONCHI
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/26/2014 04:54 PM CDT
I don't like being frustrated so I chose to completely give up on the Paladin Guild years ago. I still love playing a Paladin but it's entirely an RP thing.
Leucius
Never argue with an idiot, they bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Leucius
Never argue with an idiot, they bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
ELFVERHAN
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/26/2014 05:59 PM CDT
>>I don't like being frustrated so I chose to completely give up on the Paladin Guild years ago. I still love playing a Paladin but it's entirely an RP thing.<<
QFT.
M@c ~]X!j % %AN_rrWB5z4%p rBa =jZb*h[mp,0;pv` knIM%aJ|
******************************************
WARNING: You are carrying an extremely large number of items on your person.
Having a very high number of items can cause character corruption or
QFT.
M@c ~]X!j % %AN_rrWB5z4%p rBa =jZb*h[mp,0;pv` knIM%aJ|
******************************************
WARNING: You are carrying an extremely large number of items on your person.
Having a very high number of items can cause character corruption or
ASHAMAN1
Re: Crosspost from Thrown Weapons Re: Paladin
06/26/2014 10:00 PM CDT
>>I don't like being frustrated so I chose to completely give up on the Paladin Guild years ago. I still love playing a Paladin but it's entirely an RP thing.
We appreciate you, though retiring with that axe makes some of us wee lil paladins weep.
Samsaren
We appreciate you, though retiring with that axe makes some of us wee lil paladins weep.
Samsaren
