There have been numerous arguments back and forth lately about Risen. I wanted to have a bit of an open discussion about them.

I think many misunderstandings are going on that are causing major issues with how to handle risen. I'm going to break them into 3 categories Mechanical, Roleplay, and OOC/IC.

ROLEPLAY:

Risen if built correctly should look like everyday citizens that run around town. These citizens are invisible to the naked eye, but so many exist. They are everywhere in the city. They announce murders, send messages, do many many things we cannot see. Risen are built to be exactly like these invisible citizens. The only thing different is that Risen's get a nameplate that allows you to interact with them. Nameplates are OOC. We use them as a way to interact. When you go into a room in the city and see a risen, you should take into consideration they are one of a bunch of people there. If you detect and undead it would be searching through a lot of people trying to figure out what one is a risen. A needle in a haystack if you will. Now that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to tell at any time. If something comes searching out in the wilds while you are hunting away from the town, its going to stand out and be abnormal. The issue is right now is that mechanically it exists the ability to tell if a risen is undead, and because of a nameplate people automatically jump to that's a risen kill it. This is the major issue going on RP wise with risen, is there is no RP involved, mechanics mechanics and finally kill.



MECHANICAL:

Risen are designed to be weak, and allow interaction. Their mechanics are setup to allow it to be sent in place of a Necromancer who would stand out like a sore thumb. Yes mechanically there are ways to detect that a risen or undead in a room. Mechanically there are ways to tell if a player is a Necromancer by just casting a spell, but mechanics are not always the right thing. In a role play situation the role play should come first and a use of mechanics to support it, not overtake and depend only on the mechanics.

Now I do want to note that we should remember that Risen are strikingly weaker than the Necromancer, and just as we aren't going around using them to consent bait, it would be nice if people RPed with them instead of killed them on sight. Similarly, most Necromancers are treating most interactions as an RP opportunity, not a chance to rank stomp.


OOC/IC:

IC knowledge of risen and how they work should be very vague. Risen are meant to function and look exactly like a person, a normal citizen. Rumors of Risen being leaders of certain guilds do hold ground and they were not found out. The concept should be the same, but its not treated the same because OOC information makes for a hard thing to get past. For one nameplates exist with the risen making people automatically think it is "strange" when in reality the nameplate only allows for an interaction with it, not that its "strange" or "abnormal"


POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS:
1) Necromancers should have a means to mask a Risen from Empaths/Clerics, similarly to RoC. A great example of this was a gm event where the father of a boy came in and no one was allowed to touch the father nor could they sense if he was a undead. He started falling apart and only then was the issue deemed he was some sort of undead.

2) Killing a Risen with a high humanity (appearing as 'S'kra Commoner' say) in a JUSTICE zone should incur a murder charge.

3) Add npc citizens that walk around all over the place with nameplates.

4) Roleplay with a risen correctly. Understand that it is a tool for rp, and allow leeway in your mechanical use to allow for a flow of rp to come.


CONCLUSION:

Risens are supposed to be a powerful RP tool. They are supposed to fit in within cities, and be abnormal outside of them. The issues that surround this is a not clear understanding that they are supposed to fit in among the invisible citizens of the city. Because people do not understand nameplates are OOC they continue to see it as an unique person coming to a meeting therefore have the right to do as they will. Its a mechanical versus Roleplay issues. Not one Necromancer I know has ever used a Risen to bait pvp, we use them them to roleplay. They are our indication we are there to roleplay not murder, death, kill.

>> 2) Killing a Risen with a high humanity (appearing as 'S'kra Commoner' say) in a JUSTICE zone should incur a murder charge.
I would be fine with this as well. Seems like a good change.<<

I think my only problem with this kind of measure is that it could end up being pretty obnoxious for people who are not the necromancer controlling the Risen. Imagine a Risen sitting with a group in town cackling about its master and its origins and taunting the crowd, and that no one can deal with it without generating a murder fine. And the Risen itself is anonymous, where at least with a Familiar you can find out who owns it and there is some accountability.


Mazrian

>>> 4) Roleplay with a risen correctly. Understand that it is a tool for rp, and allow leeway in your mechanical use to allow for a flow of rp to come.
This is the big one that catches me. Fundamentally, what's being asked for is for me to play with you. Regardless of your message, the way it's been communicated over the last few days by certain people has made me extremely reluctant to do so. I've got other things to do in my life besides DR, and if playing with some people carries a high chance of next-day namecalling and pronouncements that my roleplay s incorrect, I'm going to think twice about it.<<


I'm honestly not trying to sit here and say the way this was brought up and argued was correct. People on both sides are very emotional about this situation because it is a pretty big issue. Trying to find a way to interact in positive ways while staying IC is a big goal for everyone right now. For this to happen we have to stop pulling the "I fell this way" card and look past it to solution. A major solution is to follow IC rules already in place. If we did that all of these issues wouldnt be issues because there would be rp where there should be. That hard thing is its not clear to people that IC and RP wise this is how it should be, so they, not meaning to, break that knowledge and act in a way they shouldnt. Its not a blame game its just a lack of information and understanding. I'm hoping people including yourself see this as not me calling anyone out, but a way to try to open dialog on why Necromancers are upset when trying to rp with risen, and how we can maybe have some better ideas that we can open up to make it possible to use it to build a bridge for future events. Risens are very cool, and have the potential to be used for great RP if we just give them a chance.


>> 2) Killing a Risen with a high humanity (appearing as 'S'kra Commoner' say) in a JUSTICE zone should incur a murder charge.
I would be fine with this as well. Seems like a good change.<<

>>I think my only problem with this kind of measure is that it could end up being pretty obnoxious for people who are not the necromancer controlling the Risen. Imagine a Risen sitting with a group in town cackling about its master and its origins and taunting the crowd, and that no one can deal with it without generating a murder fine. And the Risen itself is anonymous, where at least with a Familiar you can find out who owns it and there is some accountability.<<

Yeah I can completely understand that and there would be some issues. I think the right perception would be if this were the way chosen to flesh it out correctly. It would take a bit of work and maybe not the best choice to go through with, but it was a thought being passed around.

> I think my only problem with this kind of measure is that it could end up being pretty obnoxious for people who are not the necromancer controlling the Risen. Imagine a Risen sitting with a group in town cackling about its master and its origins and taunting the crowd, and that no one can deal with it without generating a murder fine. And the Risen itself is anonymous, where at least with a Familiar you can find out who owns it and there is some accountability.

Yeah, I'm still ok with that. There's still a murder charge for killing the Necro themselves if they show up ranting, so a Risen would be fine too. It's not like the fines for murder are that big of a deterrent. And I find the whole "exacting vigilante justice isn't always pretty angle" to be interesting anyway. With a familiar, you can't just kill it if you're done listening.

> It's perfectly reasonable for a mechanic to exist to identify the master. I'd argue that it (a) it shouldn't be automatic, (b) should take some time/effort, and (c) involve some sort of contested check.

So, for identifying a master, I would suggest keeping it Necro-only. For one, that's generally how such things work in the game - WM's can identify familiars, MM's identify locates. But it also plays into the theme of paranoia in the Necromancer guild. Even your fellow guildmates aren't necessarily your friend. In fact, given the theme of "information only comes at the cost of transgression", I think it would be neat if the method for discovering the creator of the Risen could only be done via a ritual performed on a killed Risen. I think this would also throw a bone to those who want to play Necromancers as cooperative with others for various reasons.

In addition, we should probably address whether a Necromancer "just knows" if someone is a Risen. I think it would be appropriate to have some sort of detection ability. Furthermore, I think it would be neat if Necromancers had the ability to expose Risen as undead if they so chose. Perhaps a ritual to swipe your ritual knife at a vital organ where black ichor will come out or something. Again, to create the moral complexity. I think the more reasons that Team Good and/or Holy have to ask friendly (or simply enemy of an enemy) Necromancers for assistance, the more complex interactions we might have. The more we NEED a Philosopher or Redeemed to help deal with a cackling demon-summoning Perverse, the more that characters who identify as opposed to them will have to swallow their misgivings and make some deals. There was obviously the big event where this happened with GM intervention, but something more commonplace and player-driven would be neat.

After all, who has the most experience avoiding Demonic influence?

- Saragos

>>In addition, we should probably address whether a Necromancer "just knows" if someone is a Risen. I think it would be appropriate to have some sort of detection ability.

A necromancer can easily spot a Risen using the 'describe' command. I'm not sure if there's a skill contest involved but it's never failed to work for me, even on Risen made by much higher circle necromancers. I agree that including a Necro-only skill contest to tell who the Risen's master is would be appropriate.

>desc com
>The commoner is draped with a cloak, concealing its features.
>Your thanatological senses allow you to see...
>Risen stuff goes here.