This is an argument I am putting forth for the sake of discussion. It is not necessarily my only view on the subject, and is somewhat overly simplistic, but I thought I would advance it because of the arguments going on elsewhere on the forums. Basically, the hypothesis guiding this is the notion that Necromancers are an "advanced" Guild not because it is harder to win with them, or because they are supposed to have weak abilities, or harsh mechanics, but because they are intended to lose. Repeatedly.
"Necromancer Roleplay (which every member of the Necromancer Guild will experience when they RP) is difficult to do within towns for various reasons dating from the implementation of this Guild. This is an intended effect of the Necromancer Guild, as it follows directly from GM-led RP scenarios dating from the implementation of the Guild, including the creation of the Inquisition, a player organization hostile to Necromancy, and from the game mechanics implemented directly into this Guild, such as the creation of the Hounds of Rutilor mechanic and their interaction with Social Outrage mechanics. These effects put the Necromancer character at high risk of reprisal."
"Many of these effects can be discerned without the need for the Necromancer to take actions to reveal themselves. For instance, a Moon Mage can perceive and interrogate a Necromancer about their Guild allegiance, which can, due to game mechanics, be reduced to them being a member of a given Guild. Therefore, the Necromancer character is not intended to experience reprisal as a consequence of actions other than simply joining the Guild and Roleplaying."
"Dragonrealms is a Roleplaying Game, and the primary intent of the game is that all members of the game enjoy it as a Roleplaying Experience. This shall simply be assumed as fact, because the alternative is an off-topic discussion for the Necromancer Forums."
"Roleplaying Events, both player and GM-organized, have always been centered around and primarily occurring within towns due to them being strong population centers with many other players to interact with for Roleplaying. This makes Roleplaying convenient."
"Therefore, because RP is centered in towns, Dragonrealms is still an RPG, the intended RP Experience for Necromancers is in fact for them to have difficulties RPing in the form of risking (and experiencing) reprisal. Any and all forms of punishment (e.g. GM-directed, player-directed, or mechanics-directed) are intended parts of the Necromancer RP Experience."
tl;dr joining the Necromancer Guild didn't mean you signed up for being burned at the stake if you screwed up, it meant you signed up for being burned at the stake, period. The Hounds only triggering at high SO is not because you are not supposed to get Hounded, it's so that you can take a break from losing, for the same reason that other players take a break from winning.
---
"Tapeabarala asu chakapar oseane Gerenshuge sinuar sedea."
ALMAZ
ROBERTDH
Re: Necromancer RP is Difficult
11/02/2013 05:38 PM CDT
I think a lot of players are looking for anti-hero tropes in Necromancers, to be the bad good guy. Less Call of Cthulhu, more... wild west? I don't know where I'm going with this.
THELOST1
Re: Necromancer RP is Difficult
11/02/2013 06:26 PM CDT
<<it meant you signed up for being burned at the stake, period>>
This is the sense I got from reading up on the guild, and playing one to a relatively low circle.
Consequentially I have huge respect for those necromancers who stick to it and help to engineer a good RP experience for themselves and others. The guild and its players offer something very unique to the game.
This is the sense I got from reading up on the guild, and playing one to a relatively low circle.
Consequentially I have huge respect for those necromancers who stick to it and help to engineer a good RP experience for themselves and others. The guild and its players offer something very unique to the game.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Necromancer RP is Difficult
11/02/2013 08:48 PM CDT
FWIW, and I hope I'm not incorrectly paraphrasing this, but Necromancers are inherently 'wrong'. Our path, the Great Work is the wrong way to reach Transcendence. I think it's fun playing someone who is inherently incorrect about their approach.
DR-RAESH
Re: Necromancer RP is Difficult
11/02/2013 08:56 PM CDT
Yup. I wouldn't go so far as to say Necromancers are designed to always lose, but in the end - they're not designed to win nor to be fair.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Necromancer RP is Difficult
11/02/2013 09:55 PM CDT
The Necromancer Guild is designed to be a dark and twisted take on the journey to self-actualization, as told through a partial use of the symbolism of the Magnum Opus / spiritual alchemy. In my world, that includes a wide latitude and vast incentives to failing.
I guess that's the focus in my mind: a Necromancer can fail, and most do fail, making the stories of the few who make it more special for the moral and practical risks. There's some (a lot?) of developmental bias toward this, but that's more a result of lack of dev time than intentional malice.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
I guess that's the focus in my mind: a Necromancer can fail, and most do fail, making the stories of the few who make it more special for the moral and practical risks. There's some (a lot?) of developmental bias toward this, but that's more a result of lack of dev time than intentional malice.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Necromancer RP is Difficult
11/02/2013 10:09 PM CDT
>I guess that's the focus in my mind: a Necromancer can fail, and most do fail, making the stories of the few who make it more special for the moral and practical risks. There's some (a lot?) of developmental bias toward this, but that's more a result of lack of dev time than intentional malice.
I've been meaning to post this question for some time, so now's good as any, but do you have any suggested literature that you drew inspiration from with the creation of the guild or influences in how you perceive it? I have no idea what 'spiritual alchemy' means to you, find a lot of my thinking on my character is influenced heavily by my own interests and readings. E.g., as a biologist, Transcendental magic is particularly interesting.
I've been meaning to post this question for some time, so now's good as any, but do you have any suggested literature that you drew inspiration from with the creation of the guild or influences in how you perceive it? I have no idea what 'spiritual alchemy' means to you, find a lot of my thinking on my character is influenced heavily by my own interests and readings. E.g., as a biologist, Transcendental magic is particularly interesting.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Necromancer RP is Difficult
11/02/2013 11:31 PM CDT
Suggested literature? There really isn't a single book that I intentionally drew the Necromancers from with that being that. I can trace the thoughts to a variety of books and interests, but I'm not sure I suggest them just for the sake of understanding the Necro guild, since they're diverse and sometimes dense.
Broadly, the interests that got applied to the Necromancer guild are existential philosophy and Western mysticism (particularly Christian mysticism and Hermeticism). When I was writing the initial lore I was reading a lot of Sartre (particularly "Being and Nothingness," "Nausea," Sartre's essay on the emotions), and had just gotten into a translation of the Corpus Hermeticum called "The Way of Hermes." I was also pursuing my Master's in Psychology at that time, with an existential-humanistic bias, so there was countless articles and books along that vein. The World of Darkness games (particularly Mage) was a favorite not-DR passtime.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Broadly, the interests that got applied to the Necromancer guild are existential philosophy and Western mysticism (particularly Christian mysticism and Hermeticism). When I was writing the initial lore I was reading a lot of Sartre (particularly "Being and Nothingness," "Nausea," Sartre's essay on the emotions), and had just gotten into a translation of the Corpus Hermeticum called "The Way of Hermes." I was also pursuing my Master's in Psychology at that time, with an existential-humanistic bias, so there was countless articles and books along that vein. The World of Darkness games (particularly Mage) was a favorite not-DR passtime.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Necromancer RP is Difficult
11/03/2013 08:01 AM CST
Wow, Corpus Hermeticum looks like one of the most unapproachable texts possible. I remember a bit from Lovecraft, where he says that science has allowed humanity to light a small candle of knowledge, illuminating our surroundings, but more importantly, revealing how vast the cave is. We huddle in our little circle of light, hearing the skittering of horrors around us, feeling their eyes upon us, and we have the audacity to try and make the candle brighter. The Great Work feels a bit like that, in some respects.
Surely Moon Mages or maybe even Clerics have dabbled a bit in theory of mind?
For what it's worth, CCP, the company that makes EVE Online has purportedly been working on a World of Darkness MMO set in the Vampire the Masquerade universe. Say what you will about EVE, but I'd give any game CCP made a chance.
Surely Moon Mages or maybe even Clerics have dabbled a bit in theory of mind?
For what it's worth, CCP, the company that makes EVE Online has purportedly been working on a World of Darkness MMO set in the Vampire the Masquerade universe. Say what you will about EVE, but I'd give any game CCP made a chance.
ALMAZ
Re: Necromancer RP is Difficult
11/03/2013 02:45 PM CST
That one will be Vampire oriented for the foreseeable future, I believe.
The attunement ritual in the game and various tests as we have seen them, for Necromancers, personally remind me a little of Crowley's long discourse on the purpose of initiatory rites. But that might be because he just so happened to deal with existential Hermeticism and I have read way too much Crowley.
As for the purpose of posting this it wasn't to say that Necromancers _have to fail_ but that unlike other guilds, Necromancers have had failure designed in to them from the word go. And I don't think this is supposed to be a design defect nor is it unintentional. For those who are wondering why this might be considered a "good thing," I refer back to my long discourse on the classical four (sometimes 3, sometimes 14) phases of the Magnum Opus.
Sometimes you have to lose before you can win.
More to the point, someone raised the idea that people play Necromancers to be the anti-hero. the experience of the fantasy anti-hero is quite explicitly, especially in its original source fantasy texts (Elric, etc.) an icon who is defined by failure. Not necessary failure to complete the quest, but sometimes that as well. They will destroy things they love out of the personal flaw of spite, or be shunned and turned away from love, saving the princess but not having any "happily ever after," or they are simply not a Good, Upstanding Person in some way, failing to live up to the heroic ideal. For the anti-hero experience to be complete, you cannot have an unchallenged victory. You must lose in some way, at some point, or you're just a hero who dresses in black.
So, as a roleplaying experience, installing "you done screwed up" into the chassis of the guild is kind of necessary.
---
"Tapeabarala asu chakapar oseane Gerenshuge sinuar sedea."
The attunement ritual in the game and various tests as we have seen them, for Necromancers, personally remind me a little of Crowley's long discourse on the purpose of initiatory rites. But that might be because he just so happened to deal with existential Hermeticism and I have read way too much Crowley.
As for the purpose of posting this it wasn't to say that Necromancers _have to fail_ but that unlike other guilds, Necromancers have had failure designed in to them from the word go. And I don't think this is supposed to be a design defect nor is it unintentional. For those who are wondering why this might be considered a "good thing," I refer back to my long discourse on the classical four (sometimes 3, sometimes 14) phases of the Magnum Opus.
Sometimes you have to lose before you can win.
More to the point, someone raised the idea that people play Necromancers to be the anti-hero. the experience of the fantasy anti-hero is quite explicitly, especially in its original source fantasy texts (Elric, etc.) an icon who is defined by failure. Not necessary failure to complete the quest, but sometimes that as well. They will destroy things they love out of the personal flaw of spite, or be shunned and turned away from love, saving the princess but not having any "happily ever after," or they are simply not a Good, Upstanding Person in some way, failing to live up to the heroic ideal. For the anti-hero experience to be complete, you cannot have an unchallenged victory. You must lose in some way, at some point, or you're just a hero who dresses in black.
So, as a roleplaying experience, installing "you done screwed up" into the chassis of the guild is kind of necessary.
---
"Tapeabarala asu chakapar oseane Gerenshuge sinuar sedea."
KHIOL
Re: Necromancer RP is Difficult
11/05/2013 10:22 PM CST
I went for a more Friedrich Nietzsche gone Dr. Frankenstein with an aggression complex with Khiol I think when I look back on how he's progressed.
I would like to say that for all my complaints about this and that I actually love this guild and the different directions you can take it because lets face it human philosophy is perspective and never factual; even if it has some factual basis.
My frustrations with the necromancer DO NOT stem from any lore, RP, or even losing standpoint(ask most anyone who plays with Khiol he loses alot and either slips away half dead or bites the dust.) Its with lack of dev on us and implementation of tools that we were told we'd have way back when...
Armifer, I reiterate that my frustrations at times are often stemmed from the day I had in the real world here taken out in text as this game is my release. For better or for worse it has been for all the years I have played.
You feel a brief sense of unease, as if somehow, somewhere, you'd run afoul of the law.
I would like to say that for all my complaints about this and that I actually love this guild and the different directions you can take it because lets face it human philosophy is perspective and never factual; even if it has some factual basis.
My frustrations with the necromancer DO NOT stem from any lore, RP, or even losing standpoint(ask most anyone who plays with Khiol he loses alot and either slips away half dead or bites the dust.) Its with lack of dev on us and implementation of tools that we were told we'd have way back when...
Armifer, I reiterate that my frustrations at times are often stemmed from the day I had in the real world here taken out in text as this game is my release. For better or for worse it has been for all the years I have played.
You feel a brief sense of unease, as if somehow, somewhere, you'd run afoul of the law.
