I'm not sure whether this would be in the necro folder or the cleric folder, I'm trying to gain a better understanding of the "rationale" behind some of the above titled concepts within Elanthian Lore.
During the early days of DR, it used to be generally believed that the Undead were "made" by the dark gods <pretty much from the annual "asketi's ride" event, when undead would be the ones that would show up>. Now, of course, we know that the gods all hate undead - hence from the time you try to make them one too many times as a necro, you damn yourself.
What I'm curious about is how exactly is what you're doing when you raise up a creature in this manner different than when a Cleric raises a creature during the MF quest. <i am not sure whether this creature can be raised outside of the quest, I haven't really experimented around with it that much, only having 1 character currently "eligible", but as of right now, not having an open spell slot>. I do know however that if you don't follow the correct procedure <i'm not giving out any game secrets here>, you tank your devotion -- although this is nothing compared to the damnation you get as a necromancer.
Why preceisely DO the gods hate the undead?
And, we know that the redeemed cannot still use those spells and stay redeemed, in other words, no zombies and such. But, what exactly DO the redeeemed believe in regard to the undead, and does it differ in any significant manner from the "official" theology as presented by the Temple?
thanks for any clarification you can shed on this matter.
Explore the Final Frontier - the unknown calls
GERSTEINJ2
TEVESHSZAT
Re: damnation and the undead
08/08/2011 02:10 PM CDT
I've always thought it was less that the gods hate the undead and more that the gods hate that necromancers are creating undead.
So it's less about the act and more the fact that they own the patent and they're mad that you're doing it unlicensed.
So it's less about the act and more the fact that they own the patent and they're mad that you're doing it unlicensed.
SILVER-KNIGHT
Re: damnation and the undead
08/08/2011 02:40 PM CDT
I've always had the impression that it's not so much that you're raising the undead - it's how you're going about it. Something about the process that necromancers use has BAD implications for the world if it's allowed to go on unchecked. So less about patent rights, and more about some high schoolers getting a hold of Ebola and a bunch of other viruses and start playing around with them.
ALGOTHI
Re: damnation and the undead
08/08/2011 03:10 PM CDT
I could be way off base here, however...
I dont believe its the existence of undead that the Immortals hate, from my understanding the Immortals are responsible for quite a few Undead/Cursed Creatures in Elanthia, its the mortals creating them. And to take that a bit further, it appears that they really hate those of the Philosophy that do it. The Hounds seem to be entirely focused on Philosophers, not the countless Bone Elves, Maelshyvian Cultists, or other Necro groups running unchecked. This seems rather odd all things considered, if necromancy is so bad why have these ancient groups been largely left alone to practice for so long?
To me it sounds like necromancy alone isnt enough, it may be necromancy combined with something else, something The Philosophy of the Knife teaches, that has the potential to threaten the System that the immortals reign over or perhaps even the Immortals themselves.
Though that does make me curious, do other groups have fear of being struck down by the immortals or does the presence of a Demonic Entity shield them from that fate?
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
I dont believe its the existence of undead that the Immortals hate, from my understanding the Immortals are responsible for quite a few Undead/Cursed Creatures in Elanthia, its the mortals creating them. And to take that a bit further, it appears that they really hate those of the Philosophy that do it. The Hounds seem to be entirely focused on Philosophers, not the countless Bone Elves, Maelshyvian Cultists, or other Necro groups running unchecked. This seems rather odd all things considered, if necromancy is so bad why have these ancient groups been largely left alone to practice for so long?
To me it sounds like necromancy alone isnt enough, it may be necromancy combined with something else, something The Philosophy of the Knife teaches, that has the potential to threaten the System that the immortals reign over or perhaps even the Immortals themselves.
Though that does make me curious, do other groups have fear of being struck down by the immortals or does the presence of a Demonic Entity shield them from that fate?
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
TEVESHSZAT
Re: damnation and the undead
08/08/2011 03:56 PM CDT
>>Something about the process that necromancers use has BAD implications for the world if it's allowed to go on unchecked. So less about patent rights, and more about some high schoolers getting a hold of Ebola and a bunch of other viruses and start playing around with them.
I'm not entirely sure about that. While you're right that all forms of sorcery apparently do Very Bad Things (tm) to the world when used, the Immortals appear to be very specific in the types of sorcery they personally dislike.
>>The Hounds seem to be entirely focused on Philosophers, not the countless Bone Elves, Maelshyvian Cultists, or other Necro groups running unchecked. This seems rather odd all things considered, if necromancy is so bad why have these ancient groups been largely left alone to practice for so long?
I'd chalk that up to low-hanging fruit more than anything. I'm sure, given the chance, the Hounds would gladly purge someone who claims allegiance with Bone Elves or Maelshyve. But, as luck would have it, all those people tend to not hang out in town with the rest of the unwashed masses. And the strongholds that do have them are rather reinforced, discouraging the glorified pitchforked mobs running around town from really taking a chance against them.
I'm not entirely sure about that. While you're right that all forms of sorcery apparently do Very Bad Things (tm) to the world when used, the Immortals appear to be very specific in the types of sorcery they personally dislike.
>>The Hounds seem to be entirely focused on Philosophers, not the countless Bone Elves, Maelshyvian Cultists, or other Necro groups running unchecked. This seems rather odd all things considered, if necromancy is so bad why have these ancient groups been largely left alone to practice for so long?
I'd chalk that up to low-hanging fruit more than anything. I'm sure, given the chance, the Hounds would gladly purge someone who claims allegiance with Bone Elves or Maelshyve. But, as luck would have it, all those people tend to not hang out in town with the rest of the unwashed masses. And the strongholds that do have them are rather reinforced, discouraging the glorified pitchforked mobs running around town from really taking a chance against them.
TENHATSU
Re: damnation and the undead
08/08/2011 04:49 PM CDT
It's my understanding that the darker Immortals do use spiritual undead as a way of Torment. However, I think the problem they have with Necromancers specifically is the trafficking with demons and what those demons bring to Elanthia that is the crux of the issue for them. I'm going to venture that the reason the Philosophers get smote and you don't see Bone Elves getting shot down is the fact that the Philosophers try to find a way to practice without demonic influence, and the other factions do not. Those other factions are likely protected by the demonic entity they're tapping into. Hopefully Armifer or Z can clear that up though.
SHADOW7988
Re: damnation and the undead
08/08/2011 04:53 PM CDT
Its not undead that the gods dislike, and its not magic that gods dislike. Its how their involved. Let's take two separate raisings for instance.
Tote Spiteful rebirths himself (yes, I am sure he is awesome enough to do that in his sleep, right)?
Tishra does the whole pheonix reborn deal (pretty sure at 150th circle you should have that).
Their both essentially self rezzing themselves. Both creating life.
But you see Tishra is a Cleric, and thus is doing it on behalf of the gods, it is their will.
Now good ole' Tote, he is doing this without the gods, against their wishes.
You can copy this over to anything with the big LIFE Creation magic, if the gods are allowing it, or backing it up with their juice, then good and dandy, especially if say Asketi is raising an army of undead for her ride, whatever she's a darn goddess. But if Lyras were to do that, well she's just a mortal trying to play with the realm of the gods.
Hopefully that was helpful.
And I am pretty sure Armifer or another Red Name went over this roughly 9 months or so ago, maybe more. Somewhere in these folders.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
Tote Spiteful rebirths himself (yes, I am sure he is awesome enough to do that in his sleep, right)?
Tishra does the whole pheonix reborn deal (pretty sure at 150th circle you should have that).
Their both essentially self rezzing themselves. Both creating life.
But you see Tishra is a Cleric, and thus is doing it on behalf of the gods, it is their will.
Now good ole' Tote, he is doing this without the gods, against their wishes.
You can copy this over to anything with the big LIFE Creation magic, if the gods are allowing it, or backing it up with their juice, then good and dandy, especially if say Asketi is raising an army of undead for her ride, whatever she's a darn goddess. But if Lyras were to do that, well she's just a mortal trying to play with the realm of the gods.
Hopefully that was helpful.
And I am pretty sure Armifer or another Red Name went over this roughly 9 months or so ago, maybe more. Somewhere in these folders.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: damnation and the undead
08/08/2011 06:47 PM CDT
>>But you see Tishra is a Cleric, and thus is doing it on behalf of the gods, it is their will.
I'd take that a step further.
Clerical magic like MF outright requires a link to the divinity (at least under current magical lore) in order to function. In the end, it works because the Immortals want it to work and each time you cast they essentially give you permission to allow it to happen.
Necromantic magic doesn't ask permission. That makes them mad.
I'd take that a step further.
Clerical magic like MF outright requires a link to the divinity (at least under current magical lore) in order to function. In the end, it works because the Immortals want it to work and each time you cast they essentially give you permission to allow it to happen.
Necromantic magic doesn't ask permission. That makes them mad.
SCHULTZS3
Re: damnation and the undead
08/11/2011 06:02 AM CDT
I'll take that a step further.
Does it "not ask permission", or just outright take?
That is, does it diminish the Immortals in the grand scheme of the multi/universe that Necromancers are trying to literally usurp their power over life and death?
I'd be pretty pissed off too if someone was basically coming in and doing something that will eventually kill me, particularly when in search of a quick buck (in this case, immortality for theirs truly). Like speculative fracking or deforestation. Except far worse.
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
Does it "not ask permission", or just outright take?
That is, does it diminish the Immortals in the grand scheme of the multi/universe that Necromancers are trying to literally usurp their power over life and death?
I'd be pretty pissed off too if someone was basically coming in and doing something that will eventually kill me, particularly when in search of a quick buck (in this case, immortality for theirs truly). Like speculative fracking or deforestation. Except far worse.
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
GERSTEINJ2
Re: damnation and the undead
08/11/2011 07:38 AM CDT
<<That is, does it diminish the Immortals in the grand scheme of the multi/universe that Necromancers are trying to literally usurp their power over life and death?>>
Hence, it all really comes down to the question of whether Transcendence is really obtainable, whether immortality can really be achieved down this road. For my character, all she has seen so far is evidence of eternal death, not eternal life. The zombies she has created have no spark of life within. They cannot act on their own, they have no sense of self-awareness. When she looks at them, "they seem ungrateful". Is this truely all there is? The most powerful necromancers she has seen or heard of... Lyras and her ilk, Lord Sorrow, the Empress D'zree,even Lasarhhtha... etc... all they have created has been death and destruction. Not Life everlasting. And Book has yet to truely convince her that he CAN achieve the fruition of the "great work". Based on what happened to the original inhabitants of the <place>, she is a bit wary of having too much "faith" in him. :-).
Explore the Final Frontier - the unknown calls
Hence, it all really comes down to the question of whether Transcendence is really obtainable, whether immortality can really be achieved down this road. For my character, all she has seen so far is evidence of eternal death, not eternal life. The zombies she has created have no spark of life within. They cannot act on their own, they have no sense of self-awareness. When she looks at them, "they seem ungrateful". Is this truely all there is? The most powerful necromancers she has seen or heard of... Lyras and her ilk, Lord Sorrow, the Empress D'zree,even Lasarhhtha... etc... all they have created has been death and destruction. Not Life everlasting. And Book has yet to truely convince her that he CAN achieve the fruition of the "great work". Based on what happened to the original inhabitants of the <place>, she is a bit wary of having too much "faith" in him. :-).
Explore the Final Frontier - the unknown calls
TEVESHSZAT
Re: damnation and the undead
08/11/2011 09:16 AM CDT
>>That is, does it diminish the Immortals in the grand scheme of the multi/universe that Necromancers are trying to literally usurp their power over life and death?
It matters what you mean by diminish.
I couldn't say if, lore-wise, using transcendental/animation magic would literally weaken the gods, where the more power Necromancers use the less power the Immortals have due to the mojo going on being a zero-sum game. But, I think that the more Necromancers use those books (and the more effective and refined those books' contents become), the gods could theoretically become the less relevant in the greater scheme of things.
It matters what you mean by diminish.
I couldn't say if, lore-wise, using transcendental/animation magic would literally weaken the gods, where the more power Necromancers use the less power the Immortals have due to the mojo going on being a zero-sum game. But, I think that the more Necromancers use those books (and the more effective and refined those books' contents become), the gods could theoretically become the less relevant in the greater scheme of things.
GERSTEINJ2
Re: damnation and the undead
08/11/2011 12:44 PM CDT
<<I couldn't say if, lore-wise, using transcendental/animation magic would literally weaken the gods, where the more power Necromancers use the less power the Immortals have due to the mojo going on being a zero-sum game. >>
I don't think it would weaken them at all to use the magic, as there have been necromancers since time immemorial - all those bone elves and dragon priests, etc. casting their spells have done nothing to diminish the power of the gods. If, however, the Philosophers were actually able to transcend, it might have some, as yet unknown, impact.
I'm just theorizing here, but thats my guessestimate.
IF, it IS some type of demonic influence behind it - the "one of many eyes" we see in those visions -- and the philosophers are merely deluding themselves, saying its "all alchemy", squeezing their eyes and ears shut and saying "there's no place like home" along with dorothy --, it could mean destablization of the gods power from that end.
Which would also be justification for their hatred of things necromantic. And we're not in Kansas anymore.
Explore the Final Frontier - the unknown calls
I don't think it would weaken them at all to use the magic, as there have been necromancers since time immemorial - all those bone elves and dragon priests, etc. casting their spells have done nothing to diminish the power of the gods. If, however, the Philosophers were actually able to transcend, it might have some, as yet unknown, impact.
I'm just theorizing here, but thats my guessestimate.
IF, it IS some type of demonic influence behind it - the "one of many eyes" we see in those visions -- and the philosophers are merely deluding themselves, saying its "all alchemy", squeezing their eyes and ears shut and saying "there's no place like home" along with dorothy --, it could mean destablization of the gods power from that end.
Which would also be justification for their hatred of things necromantic. And we're not in Kansas anymore.
Explore the Final Frontier - the unknown calls
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: damnation and the undead
08/11/2011 08:04 PM CDT
I dunno if this is an appropriate analogy, but Promethius wasn't exactly beloved by the Gods either, and he was bringing mankind something GOOD. Fire/Creation of life/circumvention of death are the purview of the Gods/Immortals.
TEUTON
Re: damnation and the undead
08/11/2011 08:51 PM CDT
One could say it was as if a Philosopher was behaving like a modern Prometheus.
Alisander
Alisander
ENOTS
Re: damnation and the undead
09/17/2011 10:01 AM CDT
It is possible for a cleric to 'raise' a nyad or dryad outside a quest. However, if done incorrectly it will tank the cleric's devotion and quite possibly even kill the cleric in question. There is an explanation of this in the quest itself- but that's a spoiler.
Player of Ryeka and the brood
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
Player of Ryeka and the brood
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
TEVESHSZAT
Re: damnation and the undead
09/17/2011 11:05 AM CDT
>>There is an explanation of this in the quest itself- but that's a spoiler.
At least Necros aren't the only ones to face a little Divine Outrage for raising things wrong now and then.
At least Necros aren't the only ones to face a little Divine Outrage for raising things wrong now and then.
ENOTS
Re: damnation and the undead
09/17/2011 11:12 AM CDT
Not at all! ;)
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
GERSTEINJ2
Re: damnation and the undead
09/17/2011 11:27 AM CDT
plus in the lore, its sort of connected, as the person responsible for the forest of night was herself a necromancer, although her magic was used with the others from F's quest to form the "protection" of the Zaulfang stones. everything is connected in a way....
I'd connect what happens to necros as more akin to what used to happen at that cold metal altar on ratha though. being at "parched" devotion is something that with suffienent time and the proper rituals, can be "fixed".
Being damned as a forsaken, slain by a random deity, and stripped of all ones favors - forever <unless you can find one old man that seems to be hiding somewhere nobody can find... is a bit more severe. :-)
Explore the Final Frontier - the unknown calls
I'd connect what happens to necros as more akin to what used to happen at that cold metal altar on ratha though. being at "parched" devotion is something that with suffienent time and the proper rituals, can be "fixed".
Being damned as a forsaken, slain by a random deity, and stripped of all ones favors - forever <unless you can find one old man that seems to be hiding somewhere nobody can find... is a bit more severe. :-)
Explore the Final Frontier - the unknown calls
