Yesterday, due to an uninteresting technical issue, I got trapped in a particular room. Inside justice. It was off the beaten path and uninhabited by the common folks. But, since it was justice, I ended up getting a Forbidden Practices charge and eventually exiled.
That exact situation isn't important. I was literally broken and had to be rescued and fixed by staff. It isn't really repeatable, and it all worked out in the end thanks to some GM troubleshooting.
I bring it up mainly because it highlights something I hate about the Suspicion mechanics: the inevitability of it all. As a Forsaken necromancer, if I'm visible inside standard justice for X period of time I'm going to get dinged and suffer consequences. Period. Full stop.
There's absolutely no way around this. It doesn't matter how well someone RPs, how smart they act/react, or even any bit of luck. Visible Necromancer + Time = Automatic Trouble
While I realize that the ACCUSE mechanics were troublesome for a whole number of reasons, I really miss not having to set a (literal) stopwatch when I go into town. I'm not asking to go back to the old, but rather wishing the current system was more flexible than it is now.
- I
TK-421
ACIDICSNAIL
Re: Inevitable Suspicion
04/27/2020 10:50 PM CDT
I agree. I understand and appreciate the reasoning for why the accusation system was switched over from manual to automated, but the way suspicion works now is really, really frustrating. I don't find having to manually track how many minutes I've been visible in a standard justice zone to be particularly fun or engaging gameplay.
From my testing, I can spend just shy of 75 minutes in justice before I get a Forbidden Practice charge. That sounds like a lot, but trust me, the time flies by when you're engaged in an event of some kind. Having to duck out of RP because I know I'm about to run out of time just feels bad. And then I need to ensure that I spent 30 consecutive minutes outside of justice to reset my suspicion - a fact I only know because I drug it out of a 10 year old forum post. There's zero in game indication that the suspicion mechanic even exists; a problem that exists for numerous necromancer mechanics.
Ideally I'd like to see the inevitability of suspicion removed in favor of something that instead rewards/punishes me based on my actions. If I don't have any outstanding SO, I'm not casting obvious necromancy spells, not performing rituals, and I'm using my various hide-I'm-a-necromancer spells, I should be able to operate in justice without constraint.
I know that as a Forsaken necromancer I apparently come across as unnerving to the unseen masses of Elanthia... but I supposedly have a way to deal with that already. The messaging for obfuscation specially mentions this: You project around yourself a field that suggests *total normalcy* to any who view you, drawing some measure of attention away from you and making it easier to conceal yourself.
Going by that messaging, having OB active should counteract the passive weirdness I give off.
If changing suspicion isn't on the table, we at least need a way to check it. PRAY was updated so we'd have a way to check our DO. JUSTICE was updated to give us more accurate SO information. We need a way to tell how unnerved the peasants are getting, too.
My apologies for the whiny tone of this post, but it is something that bothers me.
From my testing, I can spend just shy of 75 minutes in justice before I get a Forbidden Practice charge. That sounds like a lot, but trust me, the time flies by when you're engaged in an event of some kind. Having to duck out of RP because I know I'm about to run out of time just feels bad. And then I need to ensure that I spent 30 consecutive minutes outside of justice to reset my suspicion - a fact I only know because I drug it out of a 10 year old forum post. There's zero in game indication that the suspicion mechanic even exists; a problem that exists for numerous necromancer mechanics.
Ideally I'd like to see the inevitability of suspicion removed in favor of something that instead rewards/punishes me based on my actions. If I don't have any outstanding SO, I'm not casting obvious necromancy spells, not performing rituals, and I'm using my various hide-I'm-a-necromancer spells, I should be able to operate in justice without constraint.
I know that as a Forsaken necromancer I apparently come across as unnerving to the unseen masses of Elanthia... but I supposedly have a way to deal with that already. The messaging for obfuscation specially mentions this: You project around yourself a field that suggests *total normalcy* to any who view you, drawing some measure of attention away from you and making it easier to conceal yourself.
Going by that messaging, having OB active should counteract the passive weirdness I give off.
If changing suspicion isn't on the table, we at least need a way to check it. PRAY was updated so we'd have a way to check our DO. JUSTICE was updated to give us more accurate SO information. We need a way to tell how unnerved the peasants are getting, too.
My apologies for the whiny tone of this post, but it is something that bothers me.
KIDDB2
Re: Inevitable Suspicion
05/01/2020 06:50 PM CDT
Agreed.
Having to set an egg timer to remind me when my RP time has concluded is not a great experience. There's no way to cram events or even general RP into a ~75 minute time frame. Since the change I've basically been just watching my character kill things, with a handful of RP experiences that were prearranged to accommodate a mechanic that limits my character's ability to both be seen in and be in a justice zone.
To be clear I am not suggesting we return to the previous system, nor do I wish to entertain discussion on that previous system and it's flaws.
I'd like to see the current system improved to a point that simply existing in town for an hour doesn't result in a charge. Forbidden practice charges should be laid upon a character who is actively engaging in such things, including but not limited specifically to a single guild. Standing in a justice zone, even with a Foresaken soul, especially when your character is seeking Redemption from that shouldn't result in the player's RP time being limited. But that's what we have now. The current system punishes people who play the wrong guild in the wrong areas of the game if they're in those areas for the wrong amount of time. It just ruins the fun of RP in certain areas or prevents it entirely.
B.
Having to set an egg timer to remind me when my RP time has concluded is not a great experience. There's no way to cram events or even general RP into a ~75 minute time frame. Since the change I've basically been just watching my character kill things, with a handful of RP experiences that were prearranged to accommodate a mechanic that limits my character's ability to both be seen in and be in a justice zone.
To be clear I am not suggesting we return to the previous system, nor do I wish to entertain discussion on that previous system and it's flaws.
I'd like to see the current system improved to a point that simply existing in town for an hour doesn't result in a charge. Forbidden practice charges should be laid upon a character who is actively engaging in such things, including but not limited specifically to a single guild. Standing in a justice zone, even with a Foresaken soul, especially when your character is seeking Redemption from that shouldn't result in the player's RP time being limited. But that's what we have now. The current system punishes people who play the wrong guild in the wrong areas of the game if they're in those areas for the wrong amount of time. It just ruins the fun of RP in certain areas or prevents it entirely.
B.
RAIKIS
Re: Inevitable Suspicion
05/01/2020 07:25 PM CDT
I know we had some of this discussion in the discord chat, but I'm going to regurgitate it here anyway.
I still believe that the necromancer class should be "hard-mode". Many of us signed up for it knowing what the repercussions of our actions would be. However, I also agree that RP should not be so difficult to engage in and I acknowledge that most random and scheduled RP happens in towns. Additionally, several necromancers have adopted RP that should lead to being accepted members of society.
So the question is: How do we balance the need for mechanics to keep the theme and ambiance of the class without marginalizing it? Any simple solution makes the mechanic itself a moot point. Complex solutions require a lot more effort to design and implement. That is why I believe we have arrived at the current state. It's a give and take for both sides. Yes you can stay in town for a limited amount of time, but not forever. There are mechanics for staying in town: staying unsullied and seeking redemption (simusoon).
I just don't see a reasonable way forward without sacrificing a key element of the guild. We are murderers, sorcerers, and heretics. We are pariahs. The current system gave concessions to reduce the potential for abuse and seems to me as a best/easiest solution. Anything more would require effort that I believe could be directed elsewhere.
I still believe that the necromancer class should be "hard-mode". Many of us signed up for it knowing what the repercussions of our actions would be. However, I also agree that RP should not be so difficult to engage in and I acknowledge that most random and scheduled RP happens in towns. Additionally, several necromancers have adopted RP that should lead to being accepted members of society.
So the question is: How do we balance the need for mechanics to keep the theme and ambiance of the class without marginalizing it? Any simple solution makes the mechanic itself a moot point. Complex solutions require a lot more effort to design and implement. That is why I believe we have arrived at the current state. It's a give and take for both sides. Yes you can stay in town for a limited amount of time, but not forever. There are mechanics for staying in town: staying unsullied and seeking redemption (simusoon).
I just don't see a reasonable way forward without sacrificing a key element of the guild. We are murderers, sorcerers, and heretics. We are pariahs. The current system gave concessions to reduce the potential for abuse and seems to me as a best/easiest solution. Anything more would require effort that I believe could be directed elsewhere.
TK-421
Re: Inevitable Suspicion
05/01/2020 08:52 PM CDT
>> I still believe that the necromancer class should be "hard-mode". Many of us signed up for it knowing what the repercussions of our actions would be. However, I also agree that RP should not be so difficult to engage in and I acknowledge that most random and scheduled RP happens in towns. Additionally, several necromancers have adopted RP that should lead to being accepted members of society.
I still want it to be hard to be a necromancer. And being outcasts and pariahs is a huge part of that. Personally, I'd like it to be harder.
I just don't think the current Suspicion mechanics work well. The current implementation is meta is my main issue. It's a simple math problem, with no nuance.
>> I just don't see a reasonable way forward without sacrificing a key element of the guild. We are murderers, sorcerers, and heretics. We are pariahs. The current system gave concessions to reduce the potential for abuse and seems to me as a best/easiest solution. Anything more would require effort that I believe could be directed elsewhere.
The old system needed to change. I just don't think the current system is good enough. I don't have a specific solution in mind -- this isn't an easy problem to solve -- but I started this thread in the hope that we could move towards something better.
Consequences shouldn't go away. Is there a better way to do this? Can this be a system that's more...enjoyable? Egg timers aren't fun.
- I
I still want it to be hard to be a necromancer. And being outcasts and pariahs is a huge part of that. Personally, I'd like it to be harder.
I just don't think the current Suspicion mechanics work well. The current implementation is meta is my main issue. It's a simple math problem, with no nuance.
>> I just don't see a reasonable way forward without sacrificing a key element of the guild. We are murderers, sorcerers, and heretics. We are pariahs. The current system gave concessions to reduce the potential for abuse and seems to me as a best/easiest solution. Anything more would require effort that I believe could be directed elsewhere.
The old system needed to change. I just don't think the current system is good enough. I don't have a specific solution in mind -- this isn't an easy problem to solve -- but I started this thread in the hope that we could move towards something better.
Consequences shouldn't go away. Is there a better way to do this? Can this be a system that's more...enjoyable? Egg timers aren't fun.
- I
TK-421
Re: Inevitable Suspicion
05/01/2020 10:29 PM CDT
The more I think about it, what I think I want is an occasional reprieve.
So, a random thought:
What if the current mechanics largely stayed as-is, but there was a ritual (or ritual spell) that allowed us to freeze Suspicion?
We have an existing ritual that allows us to help deal with Divine Outrage. Could those existing mechanics be leveraged?
- I do this thing. It's on a heavy cooldown, so I can only do it once in X period of time.
- After I've done this thing I don't have to worry about the timer at all for Y period.
- I can go do my event or whatever. Then it's back to timer-land.
Again, I don't want to normalize the guild. There's a big difference between wanting to participate in a particular thing and being able to stand around in town like anybody else.
Give me the ability to prepare for a special occasion and I'm happier about Suspicion.
- I
So, a random thought:
What if the current mechanics largely stayed as-is, but there was a ritual (or ritual spell) that allowed us to freeze Suspicion?
We have an existing ritual that allows us to help deal with Divine Outrage. Could those existing mechanics be leveraged?
- I do this thing. It's on a heavy cooldown, so I can only do it once in X period of time.
- After I've done this thing I don't have to worry about the timer at all for Y period.
- I can go do my event or whatever. Then it's back to timer-land.
Again, I don't want to normalize the guild. There's a big difference between wanting to participate in a particular thing and being able to stand around in town like anybody else.
Give me the ability to prepare for a special occasion and I'm happier about Suspicion.
- I
