I feel devour's potency relative to CF doesn't warrant the 250 rank requirement and 30 mana min casting.
Having actively play an Empath and Necro side by side I'm aware that it is designed to function like heal. However...
1) Both Consume Flesh and Devour heals 4 locations. In the case of Consume Flesh, the only restriction is that all 4 of those locations are tied to the same body part (external wounds, internal wounds, external scars, internal scars)
2) Provided the source material is sufficient and with enough mana, Consume Flesh can fully clean out an entire body part. I think this is fantastic, makes necro enjoyable and playable. Had it truly mimicked the way HW and HS worked self healing would become too tedious and too dangerous given that its a strictly in-combat heal. If there were not sufficient power/source material, it prioritizes wounds first.
3) By contrast, I see no practical advantage to combat healing via Devour, not even heal speed.
Every heal I cast costs far greater attunemnt and heal for far less, also healing only 4 locations. The fact that targets more serious injuries first is intended to be smart, but in practice being already at a disadvantaged potency to CF, it also creates overlap unless you want to do purely devours - which further slows down devour's healing speed compared to CF.
The only advantages of Devour as I see it:
1) Stockpiled flesh for self healing when an easy to kill mob is not available - this would be a very niche use.
2) Healing a body part when the corresponding body part on the corpse is destroyed, since Devour is nondiscriminatory in that regard - this would rarely come up unless I deliberately target body parts in my attacks.
Most importantly - With the way injuries work, even the lightest hit to your right arm would result in both External and Internal wounds.
When healing via Devour, it would heal the 2 wounds as 2 locations first, then heal the resulting scars - taking up all 4 locations it could heal. CF would have been more mana efficient and the same speed as this.
With this in mind, though I only have 270 utility, I see Devour being equal speed to CF at best, slower in most cases, and in zero situation healing faster than CF; you would never have multiple wound locations that did not have both external and internal in the same area - except for rare hard-coded body destruction such as teleport/gate mishaps that destroys externals only.
Suggestion:
Currently, Elanthipeida confirms that it works like Heal and heals only 4 locations.
In order for Devour to actually heal faster in light scratch situations, it needs to be able to scale # locations healed up to 6~8. Since one corpse is only good for one devour (i think?) I also do not feel it is unreasonable for a capped Devour to restore or halfway-restore two arms (8 locations) as opposed to two CF's doing the same thing (and you can do multiple CF's per corpse as it is anyway)
BEYONDDISBELIEF
BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: Devour not giving bang for the buck
09/13/2016 02:56 AM CDT
Allowing Devour to heal up to 8 locations also stays in line with the scaling from Heal dealing with double the locations of HW/HS, which is what made Heal more situationally effective than HW/HS, whereas currently Devour is no more effective in any situation. (heals the same number of locations)
ABSOLON
Re: Devour not giving bang for the buck
09/13/2016 03:42 AM CDT
Devour was recently given the ability to use harvested material instead of a corpse as the material component specifically to set it apart from Consume Flesh and make it something you'd want to cast instead of the single location heal. Necromancers aren't supposed to be as efficient at healing as Empaths, and Devour isn't supposed to be more efficient than Consume Flesh in all situations.
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DR-MELETE
Re: Devour not giving bang for the buck
09/13/2016 08:56 AM CDT
A rewrite of Devour and heal are actually both in QC right now.
No idea how long it will to take them to clear or if they'll retain their submitted forms, but as of this writing they're turning into a precastable HoT spell that can heal up to eight spots at once and pulse up to five times. The "find worst" logic has also been revamped.
All this is just to say, heal and devour are definitely lackluster and hopefully will be improved soon.
Melete
Nature, it seems, is the popular name
for milliards and milliards and milliards
of particles playing their infinite game
of billiards and billiards and billiards.
No idea how long it will to take them to clear or if they'll retain their submitted forms, but as of this writing they're turning into a precastable HoT spell that can heal up to eight spots at once and pulse up to five times. The "find worst" logic has also been revamped.
All this is just to say, heal and devour are definitely lackluster and hopefully will be improved soon.
Melete
Nature, it seems, is the popular name
for milliards and milliards and milliards
of particles playing their infinite game
of billiards and billiards and billiards.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Devour not giving bang for the buck
09/13/2016 09:00 AM CDT
Wooo! Will each pulse require a corpse?
DR-MELETE
Re: Devour not giving bang for the buck
09/13/2016 09:04 AM CDT
One corpse per cast, subject to balancing during the QC process. Again since it's still in QC things may change, with input from the QCer, Team Necro, etc.
Mostly just wanted to head this thread off at the pass since hopefully soon it will pertain to a defunct version of the spell.
Melete
Nature, it seems, is the popular name
for milliards and milliards and milliards
of particles playing their infinite game
of billiards and billiards and billiards.
Mostly just wanted to head this thread off at the pass since hopefully soon it will pertain to a defunct version of the spell.
Melete
Nature, it seems, is the popular name
for milliards and milliards and milliards
of particles playing their infinite game
of billiards and billiards and billiards.
ABSOLON
Re: Devour not giving bang for the buck
09/13/2016 09:15 AM CDT
Will it still be able to use harvested materials?
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BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: Devour not giving bang for the buck
09/13/2016 10:58 AM CDT
I'm glad that its getting revisited and rewritten.
However, I do want to respond and clarify to this comment:
>Devour was recently given the ability to use harvested material instead of a corpse as the material component specifically to set it apart from Consume Flesh and make it something you'd want to cast instead of the single location heal. Necromancers aren't supposed to be as efficient at healing as Empaths, and Devour isn't supposed to be more efficient than Consume Flesh in all situations.
If you read through my full post - or skip to around the middle if you just wanted a description of how the spells work in practice. In zero cases would Devour be preferable to Consume Flesh. Here's the cliff's notes:
1) Every hit you take results in 4 locations that needed to be healed. CF clears it. Devour clears it with a much larger hit to your attunement.
2) "Number of locations" != Number of body parts.
3) CF is restricted to one body part, but heals 4 locations for that body part.
Devour is not restricted to a body part, but heals 4 locations nonetheless, less effectively.
4) Due to #1 and #3, In practical day-to-day use, barring hard-coded situations, CF is ALWAYS preferable to devour and healing the same number of locations.
I've played about 4 Empaths over the past 18 years or so - two 20-30th (a gamzing zone "throwaway" and one I purposefully walked - Vischelliphine if anyone remembers), a friend's Empath which I leveled 60-80th, and my current keeper 40th. I've written my own (crude) self-heal script before PERC HEALTH SELF or TAKE <person> ALL (QUICK) existed (or at least before it was usable/practical for lowbies), which had to check for specific wound levels for every single body part, back in the EWH/EWS/IWH/IWS days.
I'm pretty intimately familiar with how injuries work as far as it goes for a player and have carefully observed and know of the very few hard-coded situations would the damage not be inflict on both external and internal, even that which is seldom applicable to a Necro who heals themself.
However, I do want to respond and clarify to this comment:
>Devour was recently given the ability to use harvested material instead of a corpse as the material component specifically to set it apart from Consume Flesh and make it something you'd want to cast instead of the single location heal. Necromancers aren't supposed to be as efficient at healing as Empaths, and Devour isn't supposed to be more efficient than Consume Flesh in all situations.
If you read through my full post - or skip to around the middle if you just wanted a description of how the spells work in practice. In zero cases would Devour be preferable to Consume Flesh. Here's the cliff's notes:
1) Every hit you take results in 4 locations that needed to be healed. CF clears it. Devour clears it with a much larger hit to your attunement.
2) "Number of locations" != Number of body parts.
3) CF is restricted to one body part, but heals 4 locations for that body part.
Devour is not restricted to a body part, but heals 4 locations nonetheless, less effectively.
4) Due to #1 and #3, In practical day-to-day use, barring hard-coded situations, CF is ALWAYS preferable to devour and healing the same number of locations.
I've played about 4 Empaths over the past 18 years or so - two 20-30th (a gamzing zone "throwaway" and one I purposefully walked - Vischelliphine if anyone remembers), a friend's Empath which I leveled 60-80th, and my current keeper 40th. I've written my own (crude) self-heal script before PERC HEALTH SELF or TAKE <person> ALL (QUICK) existed (or at least before it was usable/practical for lowbies), which had to check for specific wound levels for every single body part, back in the EWH/EWS/IWH/IWS days.
I'm pretty intimately familiar with how injuries work as far as it goes for a player and have carefully observed and know of the very few hard-coded situations would the damage not be inflict on both external and internal, even that which is seldom applicable to a Necro who heals themself.
ALGOTHI
Re: Devour not giving bang for the buck
09/13/2016 11:21 AM CDT
>Will it still be able to use harvested materials?
Yes please. I love Devour and use it exclusively but would be quite disenchanted if it lost this perk.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Yes please. I love Devour and use it exclusively but would be quite disenchanted if it lost this perk.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
ABSOLON
Re: Devour not giving bang for the buck
09/13/2016 11:50 AM CDT
<<In zero cases would Devour be preferable to Consume Flesh.
If there isn't a handy corpse around.
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If there isn't a handy corpse around.
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JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Devour not giving bang for the buck
09/13/2016 12:18 PM CDT
And, also, id you just need to heal down a bleeder and don't want to worry about keeping that part of the corpse ubdaged.
DR-MELETE
Re: Devour not giving bang for the buck
09/13/2016 12:36 PM CDT
Removing the use of harvested materials has not been proposed. It may need a little tweaking to make sure the spell is balanced, but you all have strong advocates in the various persons of team Necro.
The idea is definitely to make the spell better and more usable, not the opposite. I've been GMing long enough to be leery of getting too detailed on the boards before stuff is out of QC, I just wanted you all to know that the spell's meh-ness is Known About and is Being Addressed, but I don't want too get too crazy with details on case things get changed in the course of QC.
Melete
Nature, it seems, is the popular name
for milliards and milliards and milliards
of particles playing their infinite game
of billiards and billiards and billiards.
The idea is definitely to make the spell better and more usable, not the opposite. I've been GMing long enough to be leery of getting too detailed on the boards before stuff is out of QC, I just wanted you all to know that the spell's meh-ness is Known About and is Being Addressed, but I don't want too get too crazy with details on case things get changed in the course of QC.
Melete
Nature, it seems, is the popular name
for milliards and milliards and milliards
of particles playing their infinite game
of billiards and billiards and billiards.
ALGOTHI
Re: Devour not giving bang for the buck
09/13/2016 02:33 PM CDT
Thanks Melete, you have my stamp of approval. :)
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
HUTCHENS
Re: Devour not giving bang for the buck
09/25/2016 09:24 PM CDT
Thanks for the heads up Melete. This is pretty amazing. Looking forward to seeing the finished product.
