This spell is absolutely ridiculous when its allowed to hit another player necro or not, I don't think it should be allowed till things like states of being some into play. An undead only spell that bypasses shield and armor is pretty crazy.
SHADOWCHIEF2
DR-PERSIDA
Re: HE and necros
05/30/2015 08:18 AM CDT
Harm Evil isn't 'undead only' so much as it is 'anything considered essentially evil in some fashion by the forces underlying Holy energy'. That covers undead, cursed creatures, demonic entities, some minions of certain Dark Aspect Immortals (interestingly), and, yes, Necromancers after a certain amount of Divine Outrage.
Not all Necromancers meet the threshold for Divine Outrage that causes Holy Magic to treat them as evil, though most get there eventually.
If your complaint is that you think the damage is outsized, or with DFA mechanics in general, though, then some relevant numbers would be helpful so that the Magic Team can look into if any adjustments might need to be made. Otherwise, it's hard to see if there is a balance issue going on, or if things are working at the level intended.
-Persida
Not all Necromancers meet the threshold for Divine Outrage that causes Holy Magic to treat them as evil, though most get there eventually.
If your complaint is that you think the damage is outsized, or with DFA mechanics in general, though, then some relevant numbers would be helpful so that the Magic Team can look into if any adjustments might need to be made. Otherwise, it's hard to see if there is a balance issue going on, or if things are working at the level intended.
-Persida
ASHAMAN1
Re: HE and necros
05/31/2015 08:24 AM CDT
If HE is skipping armor (like it used to once upon a time) then I suspect this is why Necros feel like it hits like a freight train. Armor skipping mechanics post 3.x are NASTY because armor finally matters.
Samsaren
Samsaren
DR-RAESH
Re: HE and necros
05/31/2015 08:55 AM CDT
If you're a Necro who is having HE cast at you...
You're gonna get wrecked. This is intentional.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
You're gonna get wrecked. This is intentional.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: HE and necros
05/31/2015 02:46 PM CDT
Intentionality aside, it's a shame that Clerics get 'I Win!' buttons against every guild. I can understand a holy magic user being particularly bad against Necromancers, but in an ideal game world, there'd be some balance against this. For example, WORM is supposed to be our anti-magic barrier, but comes with some severe penalties that make many Necromancers leave it on the table.
I don't think anyone is saying Necromancers should be automatically 'I win!' but as someone who mains a Necromancer, I'd like to see some additional tools developed for us to smooth over some of the extremely glaring holes in our guilds toolkit.
BADGOPHER
Re: HE and necros
05/31/2015 03:11 PM CDT
>Intentionality aside, it's a shame that Clerics get 'I Win!' buttons against every guild.
What is this button?
What is this button?
GIDAEN
Re: HE and necros
05/31/2015 03:35 PM CDT
>>WORM is supposed to be our anti-magic barrier, but comes with some severe penalties that make many Necromancers leave it on the table.
If you're not using WORM, you're doing it wrong. Its the only uber barrier that gives the option to still cast spells, embrace it.
Condran Arkarm.
If you're not using WORM, you're doing it wrong. Its the only uber barrier that gives the option to still cast spells, embrace it.
Condran Arkarm.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: HE and necros
05/31/2015 08:49 PM CDT
>What is this button?
I meant SA specifically, but was really getting at the point that Clerics have a super adequate strategy against every guild, and tools around many other issues.
>If you're not using WORM, you're doing it wrong. Its the only uber barrier that gives the option to still cast spells, embrace it.
Yeah but the setting that lets you do that is like a screen door in a fortress. Using WORM this way also prevents stealth ambushing, which is one of our most potent tools.
Now, if WORM could be adjusted, say, once a minute, that would be awesome.
RAISER
Re: HE and necros
06/01/2015 01:19 AM CDT
Regarding SA...
I found out recently (within the past month), that SA really was brought into line. My charisma and the person I was fighting were pretty close and SA was totally useless. I did have Auspice up, but to start with his charisma was ~10 points higher than mine. SA is NOT the "I WIN" it once was, unless you totally neglect charisma, then the cleric is going to destroy you with it. For the record, for anyone wanting to know numbers, I was at 70 charisma (with a capped Auspice up), the other guy's charisma was in the 80's (I don't remember exactly, but it was 80-84, was the low end of 80's), and I let SA hit him for a while, our spirits just clashed with no real harm to either of us for a few minutes.
Moral of the story, train all your stats and it won't seem like everything is overpowered against you (except HE of course!).
I found out recently (within the past month), that SA really was brought into line. My charisma and the person I was fighting were pretty close and SA was totally useless. I did have Auspice up, but to start with his charisma was ~10 points higher than mine. SA is NOT the "I WIN" it once was, unless you totally neglect charisma, then the cleric is going to destroy you with it. For the record, for anyone wanting to know numbers, I was at 70 charisma (with a capped Auspice up), the other guy's charisma was in the 80's (I don't remember exactly, but it was 80-84, was the low end of 80's), and I let SA hit him for a while, our spirits just clashed with no real harm to either of us for a few minutes.
Moral of the story, train all your stats and it won't seem like everything is overpowered against you (except HE of course!).
THAYET
Re: HE and necros
06/01/2015 01:56 AM CDT
HE is really completely and utterly unfair, and that frankly seems like it's by design and not necessarily a bad thing besides.
My only niggling concern about it is that it prevents SRE. I recently found out SACRIFICE does this as well. While it feels very thematic, I'm not sure it's an appropriate thing to allow players to do to another player regardless of the dynamic there. It would be another matter if we had an option to DEPART ITEMS, but we don't, so...
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
My only niggling concern about it is that it prevents SRE. I recently found out SACRIFICE does this as well. While it feels very thematic, I'm not sure it's an appropriate thing to allow players to do to another player regardless of the dynamic there. It would be another matter if we had an option to DEPART ITEMS, but we don't, so...
Thayet
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SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: HE and necros
06/03/2015 04:21 PM CDT
Actually I never use WORM fighting clerics, that would require getting victimized by HALO. Bad enough watching minions getting tossed around by it. But I agree, WORM For any other fight. I understand the reason to give clerics a good boost against evil/undead, but I've found with testing against other clerics that its usually 2-3 casts with likewise skills in the relevant fields evasion/tm and stats.
Last time the cleric probably out ranked me a little bit in the contest but with 1100ish evasion buffed 85 reflex, the 2 HE's were overkill haha, even without SICK. I really don't like to complain to much usually but DFA/no armor seems a bit extensive. Maybe when Lich mode comes out that would be more relevant, and hopefully a needed boost to help them out.
Last time the cleric probably out ranked me a little bit in the contest but with 1100ish evasion buffed 85 reflex, the 2 HE's were overkill haha, even without SICK. I really don't like to complain to much usually but DFA/no armor seems a bit extensive. Maybe when Lich mode comes out that would be more relevant, and hopefully a needed boost to help them out.
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: HE and necros
06/03/2015 04:25 PM CDT
Sorry for the double post but I just wanted to add in that yes, despite it being crazy good HE's no self rezz effect is a nasty kick in the nuts. Nothing like getting violated just to find out you can't self raise. lol.
LIURIDR
Re: HE and necros
06/03/2015 05:05 PM CDT
>despite it being crazy good HE's no self rezz effect is a nasty kick in the nuts
Surprise!
LIURIDR
Re: HE and necros
06/03/2015 05:09 PM CDT
>Last time the cleric probably out ranked me a little bit in the contest but with 1100ish evasion buffed 85 reflex, the 2 HE's were overkill haha, even without SICK.
Also, if this is a reference to me, I have about that much in TM as well and I think I probably had Substratum up so yay extra TM.
ASHAMAN1
Re: HE and necros
06/03/2015 05:24 PM CDT
>>1100ish evasion buffed 85 reflex,
What Liuri said, if its in reference to him, you're outgunned. I'm rocking over 1200 shield and 100 reflex and he wrecks me with TM, and I don't have that whole necrojuju working against me.
Samsaren
What Liuri said, if its in reference to him, you're outgunned. I'm rocking over 1200 shield and 100 reflex and he wrecks me with TM, and I don't have that whole necrojuju working against me.
Samsaren
THAYET
Re: HE and necros
06/03/2015 05:38 PM CDT
Rank disparities aside, be honest: a spell that ignores shield and armor both would make people scream bloody murder if it was handed to any other guild for more general use.
Thayet
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Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: HE and necros
06/03/2015 07:36 PM CDT
<What Liuri said, if its in reference to him, you're outgunned. I'm rocking over 1200 shield and 100 reflex and he wrecks me with TM, and I don't have that whole necrojuju working against me.
Yeah it was in reference to him, I figured he was over 1200 TM or so, which I guess was just about right with substratum up. I expected him to wreck me more or less, its more of a pain in the ass with somebody with less TM then your skills can get a SICK off on you and wreck you almost as hard with the spell. Him kicking my ass just reminded me to complain haha.
I guess any way you look at it, its just an amusing match up, HALO wrecks face on minions, along with keeping them at bay. WORM isn't of much use because if you use it you have to be at pole range at least and then your likely to get pummeled by halo yourself. Best option EOTB and run for the hills.
Yeah it was in reference to him, I figured he was over 1200 TM or so, which I guess was just about right with substratum up. I expected him to wreck me more or less, its more of a pain in the ass with somebody with less TM then your skills can get a SICK off on you and wreck you almost as hard with the spell. Him kicking my ass just reminded me to complain haha.
I guess any way you look at it, its just an amusing match up, HALO wrecks face on minions, along with keeping them at bay. WORM isn't of much use because if you use it you have to be at pole range at least and then your likely to get pummeled by halo yourself. Best option EOTB and run for the hills.
THAYET
Re: HE and necros
06/03/2015 07:59 PM CDT
>> Best option EOTB and run for the hills.
I suspect this is by design, yeah. There's just some fights we're supposed to run from, and facing down a literal servant of the gods that despise us is one of them.
As the player of a Necromancer fairly characterized as an abject coward, I'm okay with that; my main beef is, as I said, the preventing SRE thing, and that's part of a broader issue with our lack of options for managing our deaths. I think if we had a way to depart items, even if it was painful, it would be fine.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
I suspect this is by design, yeah. There's just some fights we're supposed to run from, and facing down a literal servant of the gods that despise us is one of them.
As the player of a Necromancer fairly characterized as an abject coward, I'm okay with that; my main beef is, as I said, the preventing SRE thing, and that's part of a broader issue with our lack of options for managing our deaths. I think if we had a way to depart items, even if it was painful, it would be fine.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
