I've more or less just recently started playing again, and would just like to express my distaste with the current accuse.death mechanics. There should be a check of some kind in place, or a relative timeframe where you could flee from them. Now, I know that the GM's are all about making it "hard" to play a necromancer, but really its not hard its just annoying. Necromancers being released is one of the biggest releases, if not the biggest release in DR to affect the ropeplay aspect, but its kind of hard to roleplay when there's always that one guy that wants to run to the guards. If the player base was larger then it is nowdays, the hound mechanics might be pretty solid, but with a active player number of like 200-300 people at the time I play, the only people that aren't scripting are in a few places in town. I haven't been able to use a shop in the last few months maybe, and I could care less about that, its reasonable. I know alot of people that have quit playing Necromancers that were pretty hyped about them being released just because of the fact that your never going to have any interaction, unless of course your one of the high level necromancers that people actually care about and would come out of town to RP with. I actually quit playing my MM to play the necro, and regret that now. I never wanted to be a social butterfly or anything, the last thing I'd want to do pretty much, but it'd be nice to be able to initiate some RP and fun once in a while. Looks like i'm just scripting up till i'm a necrolord and then taking my frustrations out on folks though.

Sounds like you got caught by someone, that was the first mishap. Once that happens, its harder to maintain a social life with your necro, unless its with other people who are supporters or fellow nec's. Remember the early days of thieves? It's like that, but with more persecution. The one thing you don't do is flaunt your guild until you're big enough to protect yourself, unless you're the sadistic type and like the persecution. Keeping a low profile doesn't mean you can't RP with people, it just means that you can't hang out in normal places. besides, those hangouts don't normally have much RP anyways. Most of the time, thats where people will just go to sit in on a class and script. Not much action in those places anyways. If you want to be in town to socialize, I would suggest doing it within crafting societies. Mine has met a few within them already that will prove to be useful RP ties for him.

But don't burn yourself out on the guild because of one or two bad encounters. This guild is meant to have those encounters, hence why they can never be PvP Closed. If you feel like going without conflict for a bit, swap over and play with the MM for a bit.

I'm not worried about protecting myself from other PC's, most people i'd be worried about killing me will most likely leave me alone after the first time, if not then I can flee and not be found for a while if need be. I've purposely outed myself, while some people might think thats stupid, I for one do not want to wait till i'm HLC to get involved in a little RP'd PvP. High level PvP is broken and not really any fun, unless you like to 1-shot a few people then get 1-shot yourself. I've actually had some good encounters, but they were pretty much all ruined mid fight by that one guy that wants to just run off to the guards, both sides usually seemed to be bummed out about it but it always happens. I started the post pretty much just to say that it would be cool if maybe you could get some kind of pre-warning and have time for a hasty retreat, then next time your around town you could still get ganked or what not, like a regular warrant type thing. This way, the mob you were fighting in the first place might just decide to chase you down while your on the run, and take the fight out of town. Thats all i'm really going to say about the topic, not really wanting to rant. I just feel that alot of the potential necro RP is gimped by this mechanic.

I just wanna say that while it does really suck that you can get purged and insta-killed, there are checks, and it is entirely avoidable while still having interaction, even in town. Some of that interaction is going to involve skulking around, but .. I don't believe you can be purged if you are hiding or invisible. I don't have any numbers on Rite of Contrition, but I believe it provides some protection against being purged, or at least somewhat mitigates SO and the timer that's ticking while you're in town. I haven't been purged since I got it and I've made quite a few cautious, relatively brief incursions into town. If you've already been purged a few times I imagine your social outrage is probably shot though so I don't know how much that'll help either, or if you're even interested bothering with ROC since you've intentionally outed yourself.

Truthfully, I've been fairly impressed with most of the interactions I've had with my Necromancer and people. The one time I was outed, I, in retrospect, think the Cleric who spotted me handled the situation incredibly fairly, favoring my enjoyment over his own. Even though I griped about it at the time...

Just remember what we are and what we're doing.

Not sure where me not wanting to die came into play here, I pretty much go into any RP situation planning on dying by the end of it, its actually more of more of a necessity. I don't particularly like being hounded, but even then Its not like it gets my panties in a bundle. Hell if It did i'd be raging last night.

Note: Do not Necro while intoxicated, EOTB running out in the middle of town and standing there textual balls in hand seems to happen.

I think you have to consider your audience... It sounds like you're talking about the Guard, and the Guard is only ever going to remove bad guy from Therengia (there was a huge thread about this in the ooc conflicts folder iirc). That is their arpee of choice, and not everyone will go about it by hand. Purging is like a little game to some of them, but don't let that discourage you. Maybe just try another angle.

As for the mechanic changing, don't hold your breath.

---

Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."

>>This is actually the response that the majority of players have been groomed toward since the release of the guild. It's the "safe" answer that represents the best balance between an IC response and not getting a PvP warning, especially for weaker characters and those who don't normally deal with Necromancers. The only real answer for you is to avoid justice zones.

Accuse is one among many options that a player could take in such a situation, and I haven't seen any indication from GMs that one is preferred over another, so long as the conflict is handled with a modicum of grace. While I fully support punitive consequences for necromancers that find themselves in the open in civilization, I've never been entirely comfortable with the instant death aspect of the mechanic. While I certainly am cautious about revealing Tote for more than an instant here or there when the situation demands it, I know that many of my partners in conflict choose not to have someone spam the guards with accuse attempts. I have the sense--and I imagine that this is shared by some of the "good guys"--that such a maneuver would cheapen the conflict.

---

"I kept my workshop of filthy creation: my eye-balls were starting from their sockets in attending to the details of my employment...and often did my human nature turn with loathing from my occupation..." - Mary Shelly, Frankenstein

>>Accuse is one among many options that a player could take in such a situation, and I haven't seen any indication from GMs that one is preferred over another, so long as the conflict is handled with a modicum of grace.

"While that's a perfectly fine and valid scheme to work with if "hunting a Necromancer" refers to active RP and direct PvP, in practice the balance of power is not nor intended to be remotely fair. Enter ACCUSE.

I'll say this flat out: anyone is free to ACCUSE a Necromancer at any depth of roleplaying that they desire. And if your character is successful in the accusation, he gets money for it. It is our intended tool for creating a power imbalance between Necromancers and everyone else, and nothing pleases me more than to see it used."

- Armifer

I was thinking of an even better example but there's no need to dig it up - I largely agree with everything you said. However,

>I know that many of my partners in conflict choose not to have someone spam the guards with accuse attempts. I have the sense--and I imagine that this is shared by some of the "good guys"--that such a maneuver would cheapen the conflict.

Not everyone wants to participate in the War on Necromancy on the Necromancers' terms, though. I'm happy for the people who do, really. But Bob the Necromancer simply can't expect that from Joe Public.

~ Pansophist Kougen

"Tell me thy company, and I'll tell thee what thou art." - Miguel de Cervantes

I would think there would be a penalty for false accusations. Sort of going on the "boy who called wolf" theory.



War is Peace, Truth is Lies. -george orwell

>>There is.

But it's a penalty that can be managed and avoided, if people were determined enough.

A person couldn't just accuse everyone at the NE gate every hour on the hour, but if a group wanted to accuse one person once a day (or whatever the timer for a failed accuse is), they could most likely avoid any kind of "you're wasting my time" charges from the town guard.

>>There is a penalty for false accusations, but no penalty/timer for repeated "valid" ones. There are numerous occasions in which I likely could have been purged had someone seen fit to post a character at a guard and spammed >accuse Totenus in the hope that I'd be out of hiding for an instant.

I thought if you ACCUSE someone and they're not around OR you fail the check, you can't accuse for awhile without risking being accused of wasting guard time yourself.

Players can just spam-ACCUSE and do so without any problems if the person just isn't in town? Ugh. That should give the same kind of penalty/punishment as someone trying to accuse everyone in town and failing over and over.

>>I imagine there's no negative because there's also no chance of success. If the person isn't in town, then the Hounds aren't going after them. They just tell you the person hasn't been seen in the city.

ICly, the guards are still being sent out to investigate things and having their time wasted. I would imagine a false lead is a false lead, even if the person isn't in town.

Since my point was that accusing people not in town over and over should have the same kind of penalty as accusing (and failing) to accuse people in town over and over, I think that telling the town guards that Totenus is in town, causing them to all mobilize and start running through town in a frantic attempt to chase him away would definitely result in a number of guards rather annoyed that you alerted them of something not taking place. Which is why I would think it makes perfect sense that repetitive accusing of people who aren't detectable in town (for whatever reason) should have the same kind of punishments as repetitive accusing of people in town and having those accusations fail over and over.

That said...

>>ICly, there would never be a chance to have a failed accusation against someone like Totenus.

Except for the fact that many people are fallible, especially the unwashed and uneducated masses that make up Elanthia.

Sure, someone just accused Totenus of being Totenus the Necromancer, but look at the guy. He's just standing there looking innocent and inconsequential. That couldn't be him. Not the droids you're looking for, etc etc etc.

>>Since my point was that accusing people not in town over and over should have the same kind of penalty as accusing (and failing) to accuse people in town over and over, I think that telling the town guards that Totenus is in town, causing them to all mobilize and start running through town in a frantic attempt to chase him away would definitely result in a number of guards rather annoyed that you alerted them of something not taking place.

So what happens when someone sees a Necromancer in town, that someone goes to find a guard. When they find one and accuse, the Necromancer has already left town. So they be penalized for that?

If it was all perfect, it'd be a lot different.

>>Not the droids you're looking for, etc etc etc.

No one's using a Jedi Mind Trick here. Using Totenus as an example was because he is a character that styles himself as a Necrolord in public.

>>We're not really looking to make it significantly harder to accuse somebody.

I don't want to make it harder, I just want to discourage someone from blindly typing out the names of Necromancers online and hoping for the best.

From the sound of it (and if I'm wrong please correct me so I better understand what's going on!), someone could just type WHO FULL, see which Necromancers are online, and just spam-accuse all of them. If those people are in a justice area in the province at the time, they get accused and possibly Hounded. If they're not in town, no risk no foul. To me, that seems a bit too easy for the person doing the accusing.

I don't think it should be hard to accuse someone of Necromancy, especially legitimate Necromancers. But, at the same time, the person doing the accusing should be required to at least have some kind of cursory knowledge of a Necromancer actually being in town, or else risk being penalized/fined/jailed/something for wasting the time of the town guards to chase after people who aren't even around over and over again.

>>I'm not really sure of a great solution since it seems that in general people don't actually want to hunt Necromancers out of town and the conflicts (which we do want) are basically occurring in cities.

I think part of it is that many players are more attracted toward being able to god-mode it without any kind of repercussion as opposed to risking a legitimate fight. I mean, let's face it: if I'm a circle 10 Paladin and I see Totenus in town, am I as a player more likely to go to try to go toe to toe with him, which will result in me losing, or will I accuse him to the town guards, which results in me him dying, me getting cash prizes, and not having to worry about him coming back later to eat my face unless I have my PvP set to Open?

IMO, Hounds 2.0 should involve:
1) More steps to the final auto-kill, if not 100% removing it
2) A bigger "space" for Necros to run away from

Hounds 2.0 should work like that [old?] Cleric quest where they would randomly be attacked by bony fylgja as they would progress through the quest, only more awesome. First, when a Necro reaches "Hound level" SO, random farmers/locals attack the Necro. Then, town guards. Then, provincial guards. Then, elite guards. Then, inquisitors. Then, high inquisitors. Etc etc etc. These attacks would happen even after the Necro leaves the "justice" areas.

The necro would have to leave the province completely in order to avoid being chased after. What can I say: the locals are fanatical but also territorial. Once it becomes someone else's problem they calm down.

Now, what does this do?

1) Most Necromancers will still eventually "die" if they stick around. Sure, they might be able to fight off the first few waves, but eventually they'll reach Intercessor/Dillo-like mob levels, and at that point they're just as screwed and destined for death if they try to hold their ground.
2) It'll "hurt" Necromancers more since they can't just decide "hey I'll just go hunt now as my SO calms down"

So Necros will be trading insta-death for having to just run away further when they're caught in a town. To me, this would solve the anti-necro complaints involving the fact that a Necro currently in trouble can just chill in the room right past the justice area without any issues while also solving the pro-necro complaints involving the fact that even someone on the same level as Totenus can just as easily be taken down by an angry automated mob.

>>I think part of it is that many players are more attracted toward being able to god-mode it without any kind of repercussion as opposed to risking a legitimate fight. I mean, let's face it: >>if I'm a circle 10 Paladin and I see Totenus in town, am I as a player more likely to go to try to go toe to toe with him, which will result in me losing, or will I accuse him to the town >>guards, which results in me him dying, me getting cash prizes, and not having to worry about him coming back later to eat my face unless I have my PvP set to Open?

I'm not a necro, nor do I play one on TV, so my opinion might not matter, but I think it goes farther than this. I don't like PvP conflict, but can't get involved at all in the necro-drama because the moment I do, I've opened myself up for PvP conflict. I'm PvP closed for a reason and any involvement on my part has been implied, based on discussions I've seen in the conflict folder, that I want to be engaging in PvP. Plus, involvement of PvP closed folks has been characterized as frustrating. I have no desire to frustrate players, just like I'd hope that they aren't going to do something they are certain will frustrate me. It's a game, and that's no fun. Yet, it is part of my RP to be repulsed by necromancers. What am I to do?

However, accusing to the town guards ALSO doesn't work for me. I don't want insta-death (most of the time. I admit, I don't mind when certain snert necromancers end up dead, but that honestly has nothing to do with their guild). I want something within the RP of my "orders." Basically, I've never heard anyone charge anyone else with killing necromancers, it's always been "not in my back yard." Has it ever been discussed (I fully admit I don't know) having the guards default to deportation rather than murder (from the province if there is a province-wide ban, or just from the city if that particular province hasn't banned necromancers)? Then, repeat infractions in a short period of time might escalate to murder, perhaps even on the same scale of escalation proposed for "Hounds 2.0."

~ChelmorAes

>>IMO, Hounds 2.0 should involve:
1) More steps to the final auto-kill, if not 100% removing it
2) A bigger "space" for Necros to run away from


A successful accuse doesn't automatically result in an auto-kill to begin with. If their Social Outrage is low/just beginning, they get a Forbidden practices warrant and that person can't be accused for a while, giving the Accused quite some time to escape if they realize they're in danger.

>>RoC

RoC only affects those who percieve the Necromancer. Once you're a known Necrolord(the example I am using), RoC is really failing to protect you from being outed.

>>And, at the same time, people are fallible. I can see a celebrity on tv each day but I might pass him in the city and not recognize who he is. Someone could then say "hey look it's X!" and I still might not spot the person.

Yes, this may be true for you. But that's not what is occurring when you accuse someone. You're going to a guard and saying "Hey that guy over there is a Necromancer, go get him." and they are either saying Thanks we'll take care of it, or No, lying to us is bad. There is no "Thanks we'll go after him" and then they fail to spot him. Unless of course the accuse results solely in a forbidden practices crime, in which case the Hounds aren't even called in and the Necromancer is free to flee.

>>Hounds 2.0 should work like that [old?] Cleric quest where they would randomly be attacked by bony fylgja as they would progress through the quest, only more awesome. First, when a Necro reaches "Hound level" SO, random farmers/locals attack the Necro. Then, town guards. Then, provincial guards. Then, elite guards. Then, inquisitors. Then, high inquisitors. Etc etc etc. These attacks would happen even after the Necro leaves the "justice" areas.

This could be cool, but I question whether it would get to a point where the mob would simply not be a challenge to the Necromancer after a certain point. Maybe that's fine too.

>>A successful accuse doesn't automatically result in an auto-kill to begin with. If their Social Outrage is low/just beginning, they get a Forbidden practices warrant and that person can't be accused for a while, giving the Accused quite some time to escape if they realize they're in danger.

I'm talking explicitly about what happens in a "hounds" situation, not being accused in general.

>>RoC only affects those who percieve the Necromancer. Once you're a known Necrolord(the example I am using), RoC is really failing to protect you from being outed.

Doesn't RoC stop passive SO gain, even with Necrolords? It's not just for masking a Necro from supernatural detection methods.

>>Yes, this may be true for you. But that's not what is occurring when you accuse someone. You're going to a guard and saying "Hey that guy over there is a Necromancer, go get him." and they are either saying Thanks we'll take care of it, or No, lying to us is bad. There is no "Thanks we'll go after him" and then they fail to spot him.

I don't think it was ever explicitly stated that a Necromancer passing a charisma-based accuse necromancy check wouldn't mean "Nope, I'm not the person you thought I was" as opposed to just meaning "No that person gave a convincing argument that they're not a Necromancer." I don't even believe the Necromancer is alerted about a failed accuse check, so the guard just going "no that can't possibly be the Necromancer that I was told about" doesn't seem like that far of a leap to me.

>>This could be cool, but I question whether it would get to a point where the mob would simply not be a challenge to the Necromancer after a certain point. Maybe that's fine too.

It could always eventually flex to above their skill range. I have nothing against Necromancers meeting an inevitable death/loss if they don't leave Dodge, but
making it less automatic and predestined is always better in my eyes.

>>Is there some sort of in game messaging that lets them know it just happened?

When successfully accused, you're pretty blatantly told what happened and that you should get out of Dodge ASAP.

FWIW: I have never successfully accused anyone. I have tried on occasion as that seemed the best way to teach the person not to just run around town with the necro-cape on. After failing every accuse, I pretty much gave up on the system from that aspect. An interesting aside, Madigan has been successfully accused...which I found rather interesting, heh.

Madigan