>I'd personally hope that the bottleneck for crafting them would be the way in which enchanting materials are obtained more than a notable timer where you can only make one every X days. Like how the bottleneck for kertig weapons being that kertig isn't easy to find.

I rather disagree; I'd rather it be available to everyone who has the skill, but only infrequently, instead of only available to those who have the coin to procure some rare material. Crafting is supposed to be something enjoyed by all, and while the uppermost tiers of quality may be limited by material availability, I'd prefer not to see recipes limited.

If the material is as rare as kertig, you have effectively placed it in the 'must spend enormous amounts of time/money to procure', and it again, simply becomes an out of priced item.

>>If the material is as rare as kertig, you have effectively placed it in the 'must spend enormous amounts of time/money to procure', and it again, simply becomes an out of priced item.

Eh, I disagree. I'd rather have the bottleneck being "you have to put effort into getting the stuff to make it" as opposed to "you just need to remember when 30 days passed."

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"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2

>>But like I said, all that does is mean only a select few (those who can afford it) are going to be producing it

No. It doesn't.

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TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh

>>Care to elaborate? Because that's actually exactly what it means; if the bottleneck is an expensive material,

Here is the understanding problem. You are substituting "expensive" when people are talking about "rare" materials.

They two, while they share some of the same properties are not equal. Notably, a just expensive material is unattainable to those without wealth. A material that is rare, will certainly be available as an expensive material (easier for those with coin to get access to), it does not preclude access to those without coin. You just have to spend time (instead of coin) to get it.

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TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh

There are some materials you can mine for. These are rare/expensive, but obtainable on your own, so the theoretical limiting factor is time compounded with cash, as opposed to just cash.

Some materials will be available only through quests, auctions, or rarely straight purchase at festival. These are going to be the restricted to wealth only category, unless you want to pay the RL cash to go on the quest and get the material yourself (though that's simply another type of cash gating).

Cash is equitable to experience. Either can garner the item you want in most cases, and either can be purchased with enough RL cash or earned on your own the hard honest way.

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Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.

>>No. Stop trying to make things tedious just so a few of you can feel special.

By this logic, kertig should be available at all NPC shops.

I don't like that logic.

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"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2

>>No. Stop trying to make things tedious just so a few of you can feel special. They're a one time use item. They should not require significant resources and/or time to obtain if they are craftable.

It's not so people can feel special. Being one/limited x uses has nothing to do with it. These are not designed to be something you use on a daily basis. I guarantee you if these become common, they are going to be MASSIVELY downtweaked so no one will want them.

>>If you want to limit it, put a CD on it, or make the penalty a DO thing where if you try to start mass producing you bite the bullet.

Which is what is being discussed. A good way to limit production. Welcome to the thread.

FYI, a cooldown timer vs DO for creating them is functionally the same, only in the latter, it's like if you don't wait for the cooldown to expire you die, instead of just failing (see: gwethsmasher).

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TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh

>>Armor and weapons you can bond and one use mob summons are apples and oranges.

Not all craftables are going to have infinite uses.

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"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2

>>Did you miss where they were sold for 15 plat a copy? They are common.

They were sold for 15 plat a pop at a shop that exists only a limited time of the year. This is a FAR cry from people being able to create them ad infinitum.

Go ahead. Pull the other one. Unless you really think infinite supply year round from players is the same as available limited time only.

>>Furthermore, a DO hit vs CD is not functionally the same. DO increase means production capacity is something you can manage in conjunction with the Necro's use of other DO-increasing abilitiess. The flexibility of binding it to a DO increase is offset by the fact that you might die, which is in line with the rest of the Necro guild. A cool down is just a cool down.

Nothing you say here shows a functional difference.

>>the fact that you might die, which is in line with the rest of the Necro guild.

Will die. Once DO is above a certain value you will die. No question. You don't wait too long between cooldowns (DO), you die.

>>Either way, limiting production by rare material resources is a stupid idea.

So you think. You have yet to present any actual arguments why.

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TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh

>>Once DO is above a certain value you will die. No question.

It's a percentage chance of death. It's not an on/off switch. Not sure if it ever reaches 100%.

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"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2

It hasn't been put into place so of course nobody knows for certain if people are going to jump through those hoops, but one can guess that if the gathering of the materials needed is comparable to the gathering of materials needed to create a weapon or armor that can be used for an infinite or much, much longer period of time, a lot of folks aren't going to bother with the one-shot use item. The reward is rarely going to cost justify it.

And I'm not really sure what about having to go out and locate specific hard-to-find materials before you even begin piecing them together to finish your end product wouldn't be cumbersome, but I suppose there is a better word for it. Substitute another term that means needlessly awkward and inefficient.

>>I'm not sure why you seem to be lobbying for instant always on access to orbs; as others have said, if they get to be a common/daily thing, the glass constructs are going to be mega-nerfed or some other action will be taken (such as a high percentile of duds cropping up, or explosive backfires).

New suggestion: glass constructs become daily-use items, but they are nerfed to be goblin level with one exception: they are stronger than intercessors for Ucu and only Ucu, and they auto-track him from anywhere in the game. They'd basically be the DR equivalent of a blue shell from Mario Kart, and Ucu would always be in first place.

>>The problem seems to be that you're still opperating as though these orbs are both daily use items, and somehow beneficial to the Necromancer. They're neither. They aren't like armor, so stop comparing them.

I like how you say they aren't beneficial to a Necromancer, and then go list a few ways they could be used later in the same post. Bravo on your consistency. As for the frequency of their use, who made you the decision maker? Why are you the arbiter? For what it's worth, I don't plan on firing them off routinely either, but it's not for you or me to decide how often another Necromancer plays with their toys.

In regards to the orbs not being like armor, that was sort of my point. They aren't armor. You don't use them -constantly-. It's not a basic part of your gear. That's why it's sort of strange and in my opinion unreasonable to expect the possible crafting of the glass orbs by PCs to have the same burden of creation as those things that do have that much more utility.

>> Also, 'needing the base material' to start making an item is rather reasonable. You can't make a kertig blade till you have the kertig. The production mechanics for the current creation systems are fairly quick and tolerable. You could knock out an item in fairly short order if you knew what you were doing, and if these people are making things with rare or high end materials, it's a good assumption they do.

I'm sure the tedious and problematic portion of creating an orb would not be in the actual process to make them. It's in the gathering of the materials, and while it may very well be worth it to go out and harvest enough kertig or some other rare material for a frequent use item like weaponry or armor, it's going to seem silly to try to use that same valuable material for something that is just a toy- Unless you don't want anyone but the respective Have's with enough disposable resources at their beck and call to be the only ones likely to create them. If you tell someone they can get this great new sword they can use every few seconds or this fun toy they can use just once, they're probably going to pick the sword unless they've already got one. A lot of people won't have one.

There are other, better ways to keep people from making them by the dozen than making the materials extremely difficult or expensive to obtain, while not limiting the number of PCs that actually can get one if they want one.

>>All of that said, since these things are supposed to be rare and special, they're probably going to be deliberately cumbersome to make, in some fashion. Substitute the word 'gating' for cumbersome and it makes more sense; they don't want players producing thousands of the things so they have a constant glass construct running somewhere. So the orb access is gated; if it becomes producable at all, they will remain gated in some fashion, be it time, a unique limited use pattern, or material. It's not 'cumbersome' or 'needlessly awkward and innefficient'. It's deliberate gating.

While I don't really agree that they are rare and special, I understand Raesh's desire to limit them so there isn't the possibility of a constant onslaught of hostile player made mobs. And again, there are better ways to do it than restricting via resources. Using your 'gated' term, let's imagine a posh gated community on a golf course. I'm sure it's great in there. But what about the Necromancers who don't have the means to get inside? They're left out in the cold? Tough luck? All you're doing is creating a Necro "upper class", which is asinine.

And what's funny about it is that it still might not stop someone from mass producing the orbs if they do have the resources. The people with tens and tens of thousands of plats or the people who don't mind paying USD for text inventory would have no actual check on their ability to make them provided their was enough of a supply for them to buy up. It's a poorly thought out, stupid way of doing it when there are significantly more inclusive and effective ways to limit production.

>>I'm not sure why you seem to be lobbying for instant always on access to orbs; as others have said, if they get to be a common/daily thing, the glass constructs are going to be mega-nerfed or some other action will be taken (such as a high percentile of duds cropping up, or explosive backfires).

I'm not. I'm lobbying against making them a pain in the butt to make, which is what making the creation of an orb dependent on rare input would accomplish.

The last thing this half-finished guild needs are more parts of it that can't be used.

>>For weeks anyone with plats could stockpile. I have around 100. I know of others with more. They are common. There are literally thousands of them out there.

You seem to be confused by sense of scale. That's OK, it's pretty common.
Player made (with no restrictions) - effectively infinite
Sold at a shop, that is only available for a limited time, and may not be around next fest - limited availability

limited availability < effectively infinite

FYI: Any number < infinity

>>One is a fluid management of a metered penalty system.

No it's not.

>>You will? Says who? Unless something has changed, once you cap DO you have a very small chance of each DO giving activity god smacking you. Those include rituals. There's no certainty in it.

Who said there was a cap for DO? I've double checked, and only found a reference on the Elanthipedia page. But no post to back it up.

>>Why would you want them to make creation of the orbs and exclusive system?

Already discussed in the thread. See:
https://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Necromancers/Abilities%20-%20Necromancers/view/776
>>However, if they are [enchantments] expect there to be limitations on how often you can make them.

>>https://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Necromancers/Abilities%20-%20Necromancers/view/795
>>It's not so people can feel special. Being one/limited x uses has nothing to do with it. These are not designed to be something you use on a daily basis. I guarantee you if these become common, they are going to be MASSIVELY downtweaked so no one will want them.
(in fact this was in direct response to you. Try to actually read the thread)


https://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Necromancers/Abilities%20-%20Necromancers/view/805
>>I'm not sure why you seem to be lobbying for instant always on access to orbs; as others have said, if they get to be a common/daily thing, the glass constructs are going to be mega-nerfed or some other action will be taken (such as a high percentile of duds cropping up, or explosive backfires).

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TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh

Don't make the orbs readily accessible or easy to make, but leave mining out of it. Mining sucks.

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>>I completely disagree. Astral Guides are player made, as are gweths, and neither are available in infinite supply. Gweths are easily attainable, but due to the time and material requirement, they are quite affordable.

You are wrong about astral guides. Astral guides do have a restriction, they can only be created every X days (30 IIRC). Thus aren't player made with no restrictions. In addition, they share a cooldown with a much simplyer, and more in demand product, Gwethsmashers. Given the desire for travel, these would be incredibly common without these restrictions.

Gweths are a better item to compare than Astral Guides, however have other differing factors that limit their use as a basis for comparison to the orbs:

The items needed for them are semi-rare. They're available skill limited from a single class (thieves) or as a rare-drop. Still a (minor) limited item.
More importantly they are not one time use (orbs), but are not single item needed(armor/weapons).

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TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh

>You are wrong about astral guides. Astral guides do have a restriction
As a maker of guides, believe me, I'm aware of the restriction. It is this kind of restriction I have been saying Glass Constructs have this whole time. Astral Guides can be manufactured for virtually zero materials cost, but as I've mentioned already, have a timer on their construction, limiting their supply.

My argument is not that Glass Constructs should be available to everyone all the time in great numbers, but that they should be a combination of 'available to everyone' crafting like Astral Guides, and 'affected by quality of materials' like forging. You and Teveshzhat have been arguing that 'acquiring difficult to obtain materials' is how they should be produced to limit their supply in the general population; I find financial limitation to be a poor one in this game because of how easy metagaming is. Anyone can hand off coin or rare supplies to another character/mule, but when creation of an item is on a cool down (especially one shared with other creations), production of the good is limited.

I'm not arguing against having a material component, I'm arguing against the recipe REQUIRING a kertig equivalent to be made. Anyone can make steel swords; most people will never work with kertig.

I personally think a timer bottlneck is what DR needs for items like this; there's an extremely small player base and an extremely unequal wealth distribution. Throwing a component requirement on some rare material means crafting isn't available to everyone, which soundly defeats the purpose of crafting.