Given that armifer has posted that a lich is only a "piece of meat" - that they don't retain their personality or soul or anything --
are there any advantages to this state other than not being subject to divine strike-down?
1.its seems an awful lot to give up just for the above.
2. it also seems the epidome of perverseness - a "giving-up" altogether on the idea of transcendence which is the goal of the Great Work.
would a necro that goes lich even continue to circle in the philosophers guildhall?
Out of curiosity, did you make everyone stop trying to kill Lyras so you could go try to kill Book?
GERSTEINJ2
BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: Lichdom
04/17/2010 01:29 PM CDT
>1.its seems an awful lot to give up just for the above.
As far as I can tell personality and soul being given up only affects IG/lore and should i no way interfere with the player's ability to play their character.
Also I don't think he said you'd give up your personality. Even if he did, it'd be impossible to enforce on the PC side.
RIP Tachid. Thank you for all the laughs.
(17 Akr., 394 ~ 5 Uth., 397)
As far as I can tell personality and soul being given up only affects IG/lore and should i no way interfere with the player's ability to play their character.
Also I don't think he said you'd give up your personality. Even if he did, it'd be impossible to enforce on the PC side.
RIP Tachid. Thank you for all the laughs.
(17 Akr., 394 ~ 5 Uth., 397)
RAIST
Re: Lichdom
04/17/2010 02:38 PM CDT
Based on previous posts, liches will basically be an undead body empty of soul. Considering both Lyras and her bevy of Risen both had rather defined personalities, I doubt it.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi, Gor'Tog Barbarian
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi, Gor'Tog Barbarian
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
ALLISONC10
Re: Lichdom
04/17/2010 02:41 PM CDT
After cutting it out, will I get to keep my soul in a jar as a trophy?
ALGOTHI
Re: Lichdom
04/17/2010 02:50 PM CDT
I am pretty sure that something will be keeping it as a trophy.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Lichdom
04/17/2010 07:25 PM CDT
most likely the multi-clawed thing you see when you depart without favors but without depart death.
"come crawling faster. Obey your master...
leading on your death's construction...
pain monopoly, ritual misery...
master, master, where's the dreams that i've been after..
master, master, you promised only lies..
laughter, laugher, all i hear or see is laughter
laughter, laughter , laughing at my cries.. <metallica,MasterofPuppets>
..a cacophonic dissonance spreads through your being, a crack in the edge of your mundane sight widening. Oozing darkness pours through it and floods your senses as you sense wrongness, something calling to you. With a detached sense of dread, you realize that you're feeling a terrible Hunger. Something that was always lurking at the edge of your sight but now making its presence actively known. Though the Hunger dims somewhat, it remains present, as if constantly watching and waiting for you to slip up....
..The blackness is pervasive, and you feel malicious sensations of hunger and longing. Final obvlivion seems imminent as your spirit and self threaten to merge with the starving entity beyond...
Kssarh laughs manically. "It's too late for you. You've already advanced too far in your own bloody guild." He cackles, pointing a finger at you. "You will be a Necromancer forever!"
"come crawling faster. Obey your master...
leading on your death's construction...
pain monopoly, ritual misery...
master, master, where's the dreams that i've been after..
master, master, you promised only lies..
laughter, laugher, all i hear or see is laughter
laughter, laughter , laughing at my cries.. <metallica,MasterofPuppets>
..a cacophonic dissonance spreads through your being, a crack in the edge of your mundane sight widening. Oozing darkness pours through it and floods your senses as you sense wrongness, something calling to you. With a detached sense of dread, you realize that you're feeling a terrible Hunger. Something that was always lurking at the edge of your sight but now making its presence actively known. Though the Hunger dims somewhat, it remains present, as if constantly watching and waiting for you to slip up....
..The blackness is pervasive, and you feel malicious sensations of hunger and longing. Final obvlivion seems imminent as your spirit and self threaten to merge with the starving entity beyond...
Kssarh laughs manically. "It's too late for you. You've already advanced too far in your own bloody guild." He cackles, pointing a finger at you. "You will be a Necromancer forever!"
SIRSHADOWDRAGON
Re: Lichdom
04/28/2010 12:31 AM CDT
I am hoping that you will also not get a death sting as a lich, but I have not heard this anywhere.
COOPERG8
Re: Lichdom
05/27/2010 09:00 PM CDT
So, question for the necro GM's.
When Lichdom becomes available, are there any plans to have it change how the character looks? Example:
You see XXXX, an Elf.
He is dead looking.
He looks like an undead dude ala Tachid
Just figured I'd ask for curiosities sake.
"By Idon's hairy hangnails!"
~Tsinlee
You praise a dead puppy.
When Lichdom becomes available, are there any plans to have it change how the character looks? Example:
You see XXXX, an Elf.
He is dead looking.
He looks like an undead dude ala Tachid
Just figured I'd ask for curiosities sake.
"By Idon's hairy hangnails!"
~Tsinlee
You praise a dead puppy.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Lichdom
05/27/2010 09:27 PM CDT
Our current conception of Lichdom would lock you at the levels of DO where you are (supposed to be -- it isn't in yet) visibly a Necromancer when someone LOOKs at you. With that in mind, I'd expect so.
However, lichdom is a long ways away. There's three or four other major Necromancer systems we want to clear out of the way first.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
However, lichdom is a long ways away. There's three or four other major Necromancer systems we want to clear out of the way first.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
ALGOTHI
Re: Lichdom
05/27/2010 10:20 PM CDT
>However, lichdom is a long ways away. There's three or four other major Necromancer systems we want to clear out of the way first.
Redemption and Risen come to mind as possibles for major systems, curious as to what the others are.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Redemption and Risen come to mind as possibles for major systems, curious as to what the others are.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
SHADOW7988
Re: Lichdom
05/27/2010 11:45 PM CDT
I am guessing the making of a guildhall is a 'system'.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
COOPERG8
Re: Lichdom
05/28/2010 12:04 AM CDT
Cool, thanks for the info.
"By Idon's hairy hangnails!"
~Tsinlee
You praise a dead puppy.
"By Idon's hairy hangnails!"
~Tsinlee
You praise a dead puppy.
JACOBSJ27
Re: Lichdom
05/28/2010 09:59 AM CDT
What benefits would a Necromancer gain from becoming a Lich? I'm asking more from a lore or a theoretical perspective not a mechanical perspective. I know from a mechanics side its stated that they aren't able to be swatted down by the Immortals anymore, what is the reasoning behind that?
I think I'm just trying to figure out from a roleplay perspective why a Necromancer would decide to become a Lich. I'm not sure if it has been discussed before so if someone could point me to some material that would work too.
I think I'm just trying to figure out from a roleplay perspective why a Necromancer would decide to become a Lich. I'm not sure if it has been discussed before so if someone could point me to some material that would work too.
FBC
Re: Lichdom
05/28/2010 10:48 AM CDT
>>What benefits would a Necromancer gain from becoming a Lich? I'm asking more from a lore or a theoretical perspective not a mechanical perspective. I know from a mechanics side its stated that they aren't able to be swatted down by the Immortals anymore, what is the reasoning behind that?
Not getting swatted isn't reason enough? Mechanically and RP wise?
Not getting swatted isn't reason enough? Mechanically and RP wise?
HERALD42
Re: Lichdom
05/28/2010 10:49 AM CDT
> I think I'm just trying to figure out from a roleplay perspective why a Necromancer would decide to become a Lich.
Divine Outrage no longer matters.
You are becoming more human than human.
>
You're not used to life as a fish, are you?
Divine Outrage no longer matters.
You are becoming more human than human.
>
You're not used to life as a fish, are you?
MICHAELP2002
Re: Lichdom
05/28/2010 11:21 AM CDT
While there currently doesnt seem to be much in the way of what liches are in DR, my thoughts would be the benefits of that state would be a sense of immortality. Sure, in a sense PCs are all immortal in that the game will not old age death you away, but lorewise I think its something similiar to replacing your soul with extremely powerful magics that would keep you from subcomming to old age death if that were a real risk.
What wasn't talked about though is when you become a lich what happens to SO. If you can look at someone and visibly see they are a lich, would that completely negate your ability to bank, sell, and vault even if you avoided town for months on end. Would it be the permanent bottom of the spiral? Would it be same as always, your brief town encounter allows you to use systems before the hounds can catch wind of your arrive, if only due to the shopkeepers fear of denying you?
What wasn't talked about though is when you become a lich what happens to SO. If you can look at someone and visibly see they are a lich, would that completely negate your ability to bank, sell, and vault even if you avoided town for months on end. Would it be the permanent bottom of the spiral? Would it be same as always, your brief town encounter allows you to use systems before the hounds can catch wind of your arrive, if only due to the shopkeepers fear of denying you?
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Lichdom
05/28/2010 12:27 PM CDT
From the lore perspective, the chief benefit of lichdom is immortality. It's the only reliable way on the planet to cheat death on the long term. Life magic's longevity effects are relatively minor, the gods are fickle, and even necromantic age modification has clear limits. The implicit core of necromancy is that Necromancers are terrified of death, and lichdom provides a way out.
The lich body is also incredibly resiliant. You can "kill" a lich without too much additional effort, but... then the lich stands right back up. If you cut a lich into a thousand pieces, the pieces will eventually find each other. Throw a lich into a volcano and it'll reconstitute itself from the smoke. Physical destruction of the lich body is practically impossible, since it is anchored to the world by a self-sustaining undead life-force beholden to no one but the lich itself.
The disadvantage is pretty stark, though: you lose your soul. Since DR takes a quasi-Cartesian outlook on life, this is a pretty big deal. Your Necromancer's center of awareness is anchored to the soul and if the spiritual ship sinks, so does it. When a Necromancer embraces lichdom, in a very real way he "dies" and never comes back, what's left walking Elanthia is the reminant psyche imprinted on the undead flesh.
For that reason alone, most Necromancers regard lichdom as a last resort, done only if they're doomed anyway, so that something of themselves will remain. Some people do it for naked power, but this is considered Perverse onto self-destruction.
The Philosophers also believe that if you lose your soul, you lose access to the sublime and your shot at Transcendence. That the alloyed man becomes debased into pure corpus and thus incapable of the Work of transcending the gods. As such, there is no such thing as a Philosopher lich. On the other hand, most liches have been around way the hell longer than the Philosophers and have no trouble teaching an upstart why mortal man should not presume to tell his betters how to do necromancy.
>>Divine Outrage no longer matters.
Keep in mind that almost every Divine Outrage penalty mimics being cursed or undead. While lichdom gets you relief from the semi-important final penalty, everything else still applies under the rubric of "undead monster."
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
The lich body is also incredibly resiliant. You can "kill" a lich without too much additional effort, but... then the lich stands right back up. If you cut a lich into a thousand pieces, the pieces will eventually find each other. Throw a lich into a volcano and it'll reconstitute itself from the smoke. Physical destruction of the lich body is practically impossible, since it is anchored to the world by a self-sustaining undead life-force beholden to no one but the lich itself.
The disadvantage is pretty stark, though: you lose your soul. Since DR takes a quasi-Cartesian outlook on life, this is a pretty big deal. Your Necromancer's center of awareness is anchored to the soul and if the spiritual ship sinks, so does it. When a Necromancer embraces lichdom, in a very real way he "dies" and never comes back, what's left walking Elanthia is the reminant psyche imprinted on the undead flesh.
For that reason alone, most Necromancers regard lichdom as a last resort, done only if they're doomed anyway, so that something of themselves will remain. Some people do it for naked power, but this is considered Perverse onto self-destruction.
The Philosophers also believe that if you lose your soul, you lose access to the sublime and your shot at Transcendence. That the alloyed man becomes debased into pure corpus and thus incapable of the Work of transcending the gods. As such, there is no such thing as a Philosopher lich. On the other hand, most liches have been around way the hell longer than the Philosophers and have no trouble teaching an upstart why mortal man should not presume to tell his betters how to do necromancy.
>>Divine Outrage no longer matters.
Keep in mind that almost every Divine Outrage penalty mimics being cursed or undead. While lichdom gets you relief from the semi-important final penalty, everything else still applies under the rubric of "undead monster."
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
JACOBSJ27
Re: Lichdom
05/28/2010 01:58 PM CDT
Interesting, Thanks Armifer. This is exactly what I was looking for, in particular the general Philosopher stance on lichdom which is probably what my question should have been. Whenever it is down the road that you guys get to this it'll be interesting to see IG especially how well or how poorly everyone handles it.
