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Heyo (Yeap, I'm using Gamgweth)
Over the last week, I've been studying how blindness affects everything. I'm not doing this just for kicks, obviously, it's because I'm trying to understand the mysteries of G'nar Peth, a rare and potent Sect that signed the Lunar Accord. I won't rehatch their entire history, but they are probably one of the least known Sects. We do know their Perception, depending on how we explain "Perception", is a key factor for their practices.
And so far I've been enjoying the journey: after gouging out my eyes in honor of the Sect-wide practice, I've learned how difficult blindness can be:
1. Magic doesn't appear to be affected, at least not spell-casting.
2. Combat appears to be severely diminished. I have not tested my ability to Target Magic yet.
3. Survival Skills are heavily affected as follows:
3a. Stealth - Your ability to hide is severely diminished. If you do manage to hide, the UNHIDE command causes you to fall out of the shadows into a prone position.
3b. Outdoorsmanship - Severely diminished or negated. I can no longer find grass, rock, or dust.
3c. Perception - This is obviously the big one. HUNT is either severely diminished or negated.(I can't find anything.) The SEARCH command is negated with the message "You are not in any condition to be searching around!" The Evasion Skill is severely diminished, but not negated.
3e. I have not tested lockpicking, athletics, or thievery.
4. I have not tested any of the crafting skills, but I do not scholarship and appraisal are fine.
The discussion I'm interested in talking about is functionality:
1. Is Blindness as prevalent a practice as indicated by texts and props? - Given that Blindfolds are a mainstream of the Sect, that all references to the G'nar Pethians indicate a gouging out of the eyes and blindness, and that our Sect Shops seem to support everything blindfolded or blind, does anyone "not" feel the Sect is being led down this path?
2. Considering the devastating penalties to combat and survival skills, how is it possible to train as a blind Prophet? - We all recognize that it's possible to train a Moon Mage without combat. But in survival, I do not see us having enough additional skills to avoid Stealth, Outdoorsmanship, Perception, and Evasion. I'd appreciate a response to this by any successful blind person...
3. Let's talk about Perception, is this penalty really intended for a Blind Prophet? - With all the penalties to blindness, I can't make a viable complaint UNTIL I get to the Perception Skill. According to everything I've ever read about G'nar Pethians, our ability to "see", magical, normal, and otherwise...is heightened without our eyes. So I ask you...what's been heightened? Our creed is : "Sudu li aev sa dinta, li aevan sa ita. - When the eye be empty, the sight be full." Can we get a discussion on this?
Foremost, I'm not complaining. If so, I would have put this in the complaint folder. I'm just trying to understand if, perhaps, there's a few missing elements to complete these esoteric, occult mysteries that surround these Walkers in the Garden. They are truly fascinating.
If you see me in the game, feel free to start up the discussion, while I'm going back and forth to compare Blind-to-Normal-Vision, I'm still deep in the quandary of learning how to function. Take care everybody and I look forward to further discussion.
BRAISK
DR-ARMIFER
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 07:47 AM CDT
>>...it's because I'm trying to understand the mysteries of G'nar Peth, a rare and potent Sect that signed the Lunar Accord.
G'nar Peth was dead for centuries before the Moon Mage Guild formed. The Nameless One signed the Lunar Accord for the G'nar Pethians.
>>1. Is Blindness as prevalent a practice as indicated by texts and props?
G'nar Pethian NPCs since before my time (so for about 12+ years) have noted that the gouging-out-eyes practice is not common in the sect. It's the sign of an advanced initiate in the mysteries of G'nar Peth, or someone who aspires to be one while still bumping into furniture.
>>2. Considering the devastating penalties to combat and survival skills, how is it possible to train as a blind Prophet?
It's probably not practical to train combat while bumping into furniture.
>>3. Let's talk about Perception, is this penalty really intended for a Blind Prophet?
The advanced prophets make it work somehow, though the most you'll get out of them is that sight is an unnecessary hindrance to understanding truth. The aspirants bump into furniture.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
G'nar Peth was dead for centuries before the Moon Mage Guild formed. The Nameless One signed the Lunar Accord for the G'nar Pethians.
>>1. Is Blindness as prevalent a practice as indicated by texts and props?
G'nar Pethian NPCs since before my time (so for about 12+ years) have noted that the gouging-out-eyes practice is not common in the sect. It's the sign of an advanced initiate in the mysteries of G'nar Peth, or someone who aspires to be one while still bumping into furniture.
>>2. Considering the devastating penalties to combat and survival skills, how is it possible to train as a blind Prophet?
It's probably not practical to train combat while bumping into furniture.
>>3. Let's talk about Perception, is this penalty really intended for a Blind Prophet?
The advanced prophets make it work somehow, though the most you'll get out of them is that sight is an unnecessary hindrance to understanding truth. The aspirants bump into furniture.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
DR-ARMIFER
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 07:56 AM CDT
Since there appears to be considerable confusion, I'll give a brief sketch of the sect's history.
Some time ago, in the early imperial era, there was the Prophet G'nar Peth who gathered followers to him and journeyed to the Blasted Plains, which they referred to as G'nar Peth's Garden. There they built Su Helmas and then something something, history becomes considerably blurred at this point.
By the Moon Mage era, the G'nar Pethians had changed dramatically. Some drama had cause them to lose Su Helmas, and the focus came to understanding and piecing together the esoteric wisdom of G'nar Peth. The sect came to be split between the "common" members (there is nothing common about a G'nar Pethian) who is occultist-slash-archeologist trying to find scraps of G'nar Peth's wisdom, and the advanced initiates who claim to have discovered the truth and now find their eyes to be a hindrance to learning more.
About half a century ago the ruins of Su Helmas were discovered and a major effort is underway to excavate the ruins and discover the juicy secrets of G'nar Peth. There is considerable political tension about whether the Guild writ large or the G'nar Pethians exclusively deserve access to said secrets. This has slowed excavation to a crawl (nobody wants to breach the vaults of Su Helmas and let the Other Guy learn all the stuff).
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
Some time ago, in the early imperial era, there was the Prophet G'nar Peth who gathered followers to him and journeyed to the Blasted Plains, which they referred to as G'nar Peth's Garden. There they built Su Helmas and then something something, history becomes considerably blurred at this point.
By the Moon Mage era, the G'nar Pethians had changed dramatically. Some drama had cause them to lose Su Helmas, and the focus came to understanding and piecing together the esoteric wisdom of G'nar Peth. The sect came to be split between the "common" members (there is nothing common about a G'nar Pethian) who is occultist-slash-archeologist trying to find scraps of G'nar Peth's wisdom, and the advanced initiates who claim to have discovered the truth and now find their eyes to be a hindrance to learning more.
About half a century ago the ruins of Su Helmas were discovered and a major effort is underway to excavate the ruins and discover the juicy secrets of G'nar Peth. There is considerable political tension about whether the Guild writ large or the G'nar Pethians exclusively deserve access to said secrets. This has slowed excavation to a crawl (nobody wants to breach the vaults of Su Helmas and let the Other Guy learn all the stuff).
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
BRAISK
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 08:07 AM CDT
>G'nar Peth was dead for centuries before the Moon Mage Guild formed. The Nameless One signed the Lunar Accord for the G'nar Pethians.
I wasn't saying the actual person, G'nar Peth, signed it; I was referring to the Sect. Are you saying that The Nameless One signed without actually representing the Sect?
I wasn't saying the actual person, G'nar Peth, signed it; I was referring to the Sect. Are you saying that The Nameless One signed without actually representing the Sect?
DR-ARMIFER
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 08:13 AM CDT
>>Are you saying that The Nameless One signed without actually representing the Sect?
No. Though, granted, the moderates might have had second thoughts after he went bonkers at the congress.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
No. Though, granted, the moderates might have had second thoughts after he went bonkers at the congress.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
BRAISK
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 08:32 AM CDT
>G'nar Pethian NPCs since before my time (so for about 12+ years) have noted that the gouging-out-eyes practice is not common in the sect. It's the sign of an advanced initiate in the mysteries of G'nar Peth, or someone who aspires to be one while still bumping into furniture.
DR-Armifer, I really appreciate your information and your time.
I recognize that the Gouging-out-eyes practice is a big deal, especially now that you've confirmed it. But you've used the terms "advanced initiate" and "advanced prophet". Are you referring to NPC G'nar Pethians? Because the Player G'nar Pethians are telling me that they really can't make it work, i.e. something different, and some of them are past 100 circles.
You know, this is a hard discussion. I'm fully ready to accept the whole doctrine, but I'm trying to understand if this is a matter of Roleplaying or if there are Game Mechanics at play here when I hear a response. For example, let's talk about the Search command. When blind, I'm not even able to do a search. There's no way to find hidden people or even hidden clues. I could Roleplay my way through it, but still be unable to know what's really there. And by your response, you're saying that an Advanced Initiate doesn't need to know the Trail is there, or that the Thief is hiding in the shadows...
Example Problem: SEARCH
Description: When Blind, the ability to SEARCH is disabled.
Solutions
1. Tell everyone that there is no need to search and portray the act as unecessary (A Roleplay Solution)
2. Circumvent the need to SEARCH by casting a spell that gives the same information as a SEARCH would. (Mechanics Solution)
DR-Armifer, I really appreciate your information and your time.
I recognize that the Gouging-out-eyes practice is a big deal, especially now that you've confirmed it. But you've used the terms "advanced initiate" and "advanced prophet". Are you referring to NPC G'nar Pethians? Because the Player G'nar Pethians are telling me that they really can't make it work, i.e. something different, and some of them are past 100 circles.
You know, this is a hard discussion. I'm fully ready to accept the whole doctrine, but I'm trying to understand if this is a matter of Roleplaying or if there are Game Mechanics at play here when I hear a response. For example, let's talk about the Search command. When blind, I'm not even able to do a search. There's no way to find hidden people or even hidden clues. I could Roleplay my way through it, but still be unable to know what's really there. And by your response, you're saying that an Advanced Initiate doesn't need to know the Trail is there, or that the Thief is hiding in the shadows...
Example Problem: SEARCH
Description: When Blind, the ability to SEARCH is disabled.
Solutions
1. Tell everyone that there is no need to search and portray the act as unecessary (A Roleplay Solution)
2. Circumvent the need to SEARCH by casting a spell that gives the same information as a SEARCH would. (Mechanics Solution)
DR-ARMIFER
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 08:41 AM CDT
>>I recognize that the Gouging-out-eyes practice is a big deal, especially now that you've confirmed it. But you've used the terms "advanced initiate" and "advanced prophet". Are you referring to NPC G'nar Pethians?
Yes, I am referring specifically to a sub-set of the sect, NPCs only, that have experienced the Truth (capital 'T') of G'nar Peth's doctrine. This is the formative moment that stereotypically causes someone to don purple, gouge out their eyes with a spoon, and go wander in G'nar Peth's Garden.
It currently has not been revealed to PCs what the Truth of G'nar Peth's doctrine is. This may change in the future, but we've historically considered it integral to the nature of the sect that no PC ICly understands the ins and outs of G'nar Peth.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
Yes, I am referring specifically to a sub-set of the sect, NPCs only, that have experienced the Truth (capital 'T') of G'nar Peth's doctrine. This is the formative moment that stereotypically causes someone to don purple, gouge out their eyes with a spoon, and go wander in G'nar Peth's Garden.
It currently has not been revealed to PCs what the Truth of G'nar Peth's doctrine is. This may change in the future, but we've historically considered it integral to the nature of the sect that no PC ICly understands the ins and outs of G'nar Peth.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
DAMART
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 08:43 AM CDT
>>Solutions
1. Tell everyone that there is no need to search and portray the act as unecessary (A Roleplay Solution)
2. Circumvent the need to SEARCH by casting a spell that gives the same information as a SEARCH would. (Mechanics Solution)
3. A cosmetic change via an item/cantrip/fest alteration that makes it appear the eyes are missing while mechanically they remain.
BRAISK
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 08:48 AM CDT
>3. A cosmetic change via an item/cantrip/fest alteration that makes it appear the eyes are missing while mechanically they remain.
Damart's solution is a good one, too.
Okay, I think I came up with one reason why I think G'nar Pethians Players can't play, or even roleplay, with Blindess:
Reason 1: You can't use a telescope while blind and some Constellations require a telescope.
It makes complete sense that a blind person can't use a telescope, but that basically limits their Constellations. On the other hand, if there was a magical way to circumvent the need for a telescope, I'd go for that, even if it was a far-reaching, way-up-there ability.
Damart's solution is a good one, too.
Okay, I think I came up with one reason why I think G'nar Pethians Players can't play, or even roleplay, with Blindess:
Reason 1: You can't use a telescope while blind and some Constellations require a telescope.
It makes complete sense that a blind person can't use a telescope, but that basically limits their Constellations. On the other hand, if there was a magical way to circumvent the need for a telescope, I'd go for that, even if it was a far-reaching, way-up-there ability.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 08:49 AM CDT
The blindness thing is pretty important, both for the reason Raesh pointed out and for the thematic one.
Blindness sucks, regardless of what the mad prophets say. If this seems to put this practice of G'nar Peth at odds with functioning in the world, you're right, it does.
This is a plot point, not a design error.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
Blindness sucks, regardless of what the mad prophets say. If this seems to put this practice of G'nar Peth at odds with functioning in the world, you're right, it does.
This is a plot point, not a design error.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
BRAISK
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 08:53 AM CDT
>This is a plot point, not a design error.
Man...this plot point has been going on for almost 20 years. :)
I could swear I remember reading about the Gouging since before the emergence of the Target Magic Skill.
That's cool, though. Sounds like a mystery!
Man...this plot point has been going on for almost 20 years. :)
I could swear I remember reading about the Gouging since before the emergence of the Target Magic Skill.
That's cool, though. Sounds like a mystery!
DR-ARMIFER
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 08:58 AM CDT
>>Man...this plot point has been going on for almost 20 years. :)
We've released a lot of information about the G'nar Pethians over the years, enough that if someone cataloged it all they might be frightfully close to a clear picture of what's going on. There's only one fact we absolutely have not revealed ICly and I don't think we will in the near future.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
We've released a lot of information about the G'nar Pethians over the years, enough that if someone cataloged it all they might be frightfully close to a clear picture of what's going on. There's only one fact we absolutely have not revealed ICly and I don't think we will in the near future.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
THETECHNOCRACY
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 09:35 AM CDT
>>About half a century ago the ruins of Su Helmas were discovered and a major effort is underway to excavate the ruins and discover the juicy secrets of G'nar Peth. There is considerable political tension about whether the Guild writ large or the G'nar Pethians exclusively deserve access to said secrets. This has slowed excavation to a crawl (nobody wants to breach the vaults of Su Helmas and let the Other Guy learn all the stuff).
Will some aspect of the ruins ever be released in game?
>>We've released a lot of information about the G'nar Pethians over the years, enough that if someone cataloged it all they might be frightfully close to a clear picture of what's going on. There's only one fact we absolutely have not revealed ICly and I don't think we will in the near future.
"What's going on" meaning more than just crazy people gouging out their eyes?
Will some aspect of the ruins ever be released in game?
>>We've released a lot of information about the G'nar Pethians over the years, enough that if someone cataloged it all they might be frightfully close to a clear picture of what's going on. There's only one fact we absolutely have not revealed ICly and I don't think we will in the near future.
"What's going on" meaning more than just crazy people gouging out their eyes?
DAMART
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 09:38 AM CDT
>>Will some aspect of the ruins ever be released in game?
Rumor has it just in time for xmas 2003.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 09:38 AM CDT
>>Will some aspect of the ruins ever be released in game?
There's no plans at the moment, but it's something perpetually on my "want to do" list. It's possible that Su Helmas might eventually become the site of a quest instead of a normal addition to the game. Or it might become a normal addition to the game some year. The possibilities are endless!
I have a half-drafted proposal for a pay quest called, simply, the Vault of Su Helmas. I've never committed to it because quests are an enormous amount of work and I have more than enough guilds and magic system work to occupy me until the Trump administration.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
There's no plans at the moment, but it's something perpetually on my "want to do" list. It's possible that Su Helmas might eventually become the site of a quest instead of a normal addition to the game. Or it might become a normal addition to the game some year. The possibilities are endless!
I have a half-drafted proposal for a pay quest called, simply, the Vault of Su Helmas. I've never committed to it because quests are an enormous amount of work and I have more than enough guilds and magic system work to occupy me until the Trump administration.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
BRAISK
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 09:51 AM CDT
>until the Trump administration.
And there it is....he is insane.
And there it is....he is insane.
DR-RAESH
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 11:49 AM CDT
>>We've released a lot of information about the G'nar Pethians over the years, enough that if someone cataloged it all they might be frightfully close to a clear picture of what's going on. There's only one fact we absolutely have not revealed ICly and I don't think we will in the near future.
I'm just going to add three things to this discussion.
1) The above statement is completely true. After being NDA'ed and learning the Great Moon Mage Truths I went back and re-read a bunch of the IC lore and was like "It's so blindingly obvious!" And then I read the story Rigby(?) wrote https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Book:BafSS that is entirely unrelated.
2) There's a fellow named S'su'yvyn I'm dying for you all to meet one of these days.
3) As Armifer says we've made it a fairly major point over the years that the vast majority of Pethians do not gouge out their eyes (I don't believe this was really present in the early lore). This is both because it makes sense and as a nod to playability. If a Pethian is missing their eyes there are really only two reasons. One explanation is that they've reached the very upper levels of understanding in the sect and this makes them... rather weird. They don't seem to be interested in sharing these secrets or how they learned them. These are not secrets currently learnable by players. The other is that they're a younger member of the sect who has gouged out their eyes in the misguided belief it will bring them understanding. It doesn't and their senses really aren't any better than anyone elses and they tend to be both looked down upon and slightly pitied by the rest of the sect.
The best comparison I can think would be someone buying a Warrior's jersey and the latest Jordan's so they can get into the NBA.
-Raesh
"The trouble with atheism, is that it offers a limited range of curses.” - Two Serpents Rise
I'm just going to add three things to this discussion.
1) The above statement is completely true. After being NDA'ed and learning the Great Moon Mage Truths I went back and re-read a bunch of the IC lore and was like "It's so blindingly obvious!" And then I read the story Rigby(?) wrote https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Book:BafSS that is entirely unrelated.
2) There's a fellow named S'su'yvyn I'm dying for you all to meet one of these days.
3) As Armifer says we've made it a fairly major point over the years that the vast majority of Pethians do not gouge out their eyes (I don't believe this was really present in the early lore). This is both because it makes sense and as a nod to playability. If a Pethian is missing their eyes there are really only two reasons. One explanation is that they've reached the very upper levels of understanding in the sect and this makes them... rather weird. They don't seem to be interested in sharing these secrets or how they learned them. These are not secrets currently learnable by players. The other is that they're a younger member of the sect who has gouged out their eyes in the misguided belief it will bring them understanding. It doesn't and their senses really aren't any better than anyone elses and they tend to be both looked down upon and slightly pitied by the rest of the sect.
The best comparison I can think would be someone buying a Warrior's jersey and the latest Jordan's so they can get into the NBA.
-Raesh
"The trouble with atheism, is that it offers a limited range of curses.” - Two Serpents Rise
DAMART
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 12:45 PM CDT
>> And then I read the story Rigby
So they become warrior mages. I can see why the council would bury this.
ABSOLON
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 12:50 PM CDT
<<Rumor has it just in time for xmas 2003.
This had my coworkers wondering why I was laughing so loudly.
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This had my coworkers wondering why I was laughing so loudly.
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THAYET
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 01:11 PM CDT
It is still possible to pull off Creepy Advanced Pethian With Knowledge Beyond Men without actually knowing the Terrible Secret of G'Nar Peth as a player, but it isn't something I've seen done well or often since Vivvianne(sp?) left. Gouging your eyes out isn't even necessary or even helpful for this frankly. Your behavior, if you can pull it off, will convey this far better than a line in your features will.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
BRAISK
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 01:34 PM CDT
>3) ...If a Pethian is missing their eyes there are really only two reasons. One explanation is that they've reached the very upper levels of understanding in the sect and this makes them... rather weird...The other is that they're a younger member of the sect who has gouged out their eyes in the misguided belief it will bring them understanding. It doesn't and their senses really aren't any better than anyone elses and they tend to be both looked down upon and slightly pitied by the rest of the sect.
Okay, believe it or not, this isn't a problem. I can completely work with this.
But why did you sell those GOUGE Blindfolds in the G'nar Pethian wagon a GuildFest? It sorta seems like you GMs were pushing for G'nar Pethians to pick them up and gouge out their eyes. And now you're saying the ones who used them were the pitied ones. (I'm laughing right now because it's totally insane and...yes...sounds like a G'nar Pethian joke.)
Okay, believe it or not, this isn't a problem. I can completely work with this.
But why did you sell those GOUGE Blindfolds in the G'nar Pethian wagon a GuildFest? It sorta seems like you GMs were pushing for G'nar Pethians to pick them up and gouge out their eyes. And now you're saying the ones who used them were the pitied ones. (I'm laughing right now because it's totally insane and...yes...sounds like a G'nar Pethian joke.)
THAYET
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 01:40 PM CDT
The current crop of GMs did not make that shop, FWIW. That was many, many GM teams ago. I want to say Talian was still our guy when it first came out? Maybe even Tribanin.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
ABSOLON
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 01:55 PM CDT
Yeah, those blindfolded were documented on Dragonrealms Future Past so they were from one of the earliest fests originally.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
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DR-RAESH
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 04:05 PM CDT
Yup - that shop was written back in the early 2000s? I just brought it back because it had some cool toys in it.
-Raesh
"The trouble with atheism, is that it offers a limited range of curses.” - Two Serpents Rise
-Raesh
"The trouble with atheism, is that it offers a limited range of curses.” - Two Serpents Rise
THETECHNOCRACY
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 08:56 PM CDT
>>1) The above statement is completely true. After being NDA'ed and learning the Great Moon Mage Truths I went back and re-read a bunch of the IC lore and was like "It's so blindingly obvious!" And then I read the story Rigby(?) wrote https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Book:BafSS that is entirely unrelated.
I always assumed this was a sort of tongue in cheek poke at what must be going on with PCs when they aren't active.
I always assumed this was a sort of tongue in cheek poke at what must be going on with PCs when they aren't active.
THAYET
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/10/2015 09:33 PM CDT
Yeah, that book is basically one big joke about how most PCs are raging psychopaths.
IIRC Rigby wrote it.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
IIRC Rigby wrote it.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
TRACYJRC
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/11/2015 02:11 AM CDT
All this talk just seems to remind me how vocal I was that long ago. Sorry, and you're welcome.
Garden be Seen.
BRAISK
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/11/2015 05:08 AM CDT
>Yup - that shop was written back in the early 2000s? I just brought it back because it had some cool toys in it.
I'm not complaining, just that I thought it was kinda funny. I'm pretty sure it was a direct response to all the Sect Members looking for a way to GOUGE out their eyes. In a sense, we did it to ourselves.
That said, I will add this: The information coming out today has "opened up my eyes". In all seriousness, this is a great learning moment for me OOC and in the game. I can say this much: I really appreciate what I've learned today.
I'm not complaining, just that I thought it was kinda funny. I'm pretty sure it was a direct response to all the Sect Members looking for a way to GOUGE out their eyes. In a sense, we did it to ourselves.
That said, I will add this: The information coming out today has "opened up my eyes". In all seriousness, this is a great learning moment for me OOC and in the game. I can say this much: I really appreciate what I've learned today.
KASHIK
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/11/2015 07:28 AM CDT
So judging by the completely unrelated story Rigby wrote (wrought?), the Truth of G'nar Peth is that all of us are being controlled by otherworldly, oh, let's call them "players", and gouging out the eyes is a painful tinfoil hat?
I can dig it.
~Kashik
I can dig it.
~Kashik
ABSOLON
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/11/2015 11:20 AM CDT
No. What part of unrelated was unclear?
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
BRAISK
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/11/2015 11:31 AM CDT
>So judging by the completely unrelated story Rigby wrote (wrought?), the Truth of G'nar Peth is that all of us are being controlled by otherworldly, oh, let's call them "players", and gouging out the eyes is a painful tinfoil hat?
I'll just say this...because I've spent the entire night/day(?) pouring through texts and logs over the last (OOC) 20 years of Dragonrealms history. I'm tired and probably sound ridiculous, but here goes:
The reference to Salvatine Ockham is a distraction (my opinion only). It's the girl and her hysterical blindness. I've found other information too, but I'm still trying to figure out what's real and what's a trick. Also not sure if this discussion is allowed to occur here.
In the game I'd talk about it, though.
I'll just say this...because I've spent the entire night/day(?) pouring through texts and logs over the last (OOC) 20 years of Dragonrealms history. I'm tired and probably sound ridiculous, but here goes:
The reference to Salvatine Ockham is a distraction (my opinion only). It's the girl and her hysterical blindness. I've found other information too, but I'm still trying to figure out what's real and what's a trick. Also not sure if this discussion is allowed to occur here.
In the game I'd talk about it, though.
THAYET
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/11/2015 03:41 PM CDT
No, seriously, it's just a giant fourth wall-breaking joke.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
DR-RAESH
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/11/2015 03:53 PM CDT
There is no relationship between the two whatsoever. I literally just included it because it's an interesting thing and it's literally what I read after rereading all the Pethian books in game.
-Raesh
"The trouble with atheism, is that it offers a limited range of curses.” - Two Serpents Rise
-Raesh
"The trouble with atheism, is that it offers a limited range of curses.” - Two Serpents Rise
BRAISK
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/11/2015 05:57 PM CDT
Ah well. All of a sudden there's a reference to a "Hysterical Blindness" in a book that's been censured by the Moon Mage Council. And you had to break my moment!
And now for my next question: Is any of this wrong about The Garden:
>Of the Prophets of G'nar-Peth, little can be said: the purple-robed mages came from what they called "Master G'nar-Peth's garden of paradise", the same hellish volcanic wasteland known to the rest of Elanthia as the Blasted Plains.
Okay. I've researched this quite a bit. So I know it's a place from the book "A Brief History of the Guild of Moon Magic" by Kssarh T'kinnirii. But then DR-Armifer tells us in a previous post that it's also a State of Enlightenment and a heavenly realm. (Paraphrasing here. Feel free to correct me if necessary.)
So, now this may sound like three answers, but it could be two if the location where it exists in the Blasted Plains is also a Heavenly Realm.
My question is if these three descriptions are intended? I know the Book was written way way back and Armifer's description is fairly recent. Just want to make sure they jive together.
Braisk
And now for my next question: Is any of this wrong about The Garden:
>Of the Prophets of G'nar-Peth, little can be said: the purple-robed mages came from what they called "Master G'nar-Peth's garden of paradise", the same hellish volcanic wasteland known to the rest of Elanthia as the Blasted Plains.
Okay. I've researched this quite a bit. So I know it's a place from the book "A Brief History of the Guild of Moon Magic" by Kssarh T'kinnirii. But then DR-Armifer tells us in a previous post that it's also a State of Enlightenment and a heavenly realm. (Paraphrasing here. Feel free to correct me if necessary.)
So, now this may sound like three answers, but it could be two if the location where it exists in the Blasted Plains is also a Heavenly Realm.
My question is if these three descriptions are intended? I know the Book was written way way back and Armifer's description is fairly recent. Just want to make sure they jive together.
Braisk
DR-ARMIFER
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/11/2015 06:45 PM CDT
"The Prophets are organized as a mystery religion, somewhat similar to the early 20th century Hermetic orders (or Scientology, for that matter)."
If you're unfamiliar with mystery religions (or scientology), the idea is that there is a "false front" of basic religious truths for the uninitiated, and as someone progresses within the cult one learns more and more secrets, elaborating on what one initially believed, be it the nature of Hermes Thrice Great or Xenu.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
If you're unfamiliar with mystery religions (or scientology), the idea is that there is a "false front" of basic religious truths for the uninitiated, and as someone progresses within the cult one learns more and more secrets, elaborating on what one initially believed, be it the nature of Hermes Thrice Great or Xenu.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
THETECHNOCRACY
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/11/2015 10:09 PM CDT
>>If you're unfamiliar with mystery religions (or scientology), the idea is that there is a "false front" of basic religious truths for the uninitiated, and as someone progresses within the cult one learns more and more secrets, elaborating on what one initially believed, be it the nature of Hermes Thrice Great or Xenu.
The degree to which these "false fronts" are entirely false, or are just little white lies, can be disputed. Like any introductory chemistry or physics class, you're told things in a very broad, general way, before you're "initiated" enough to understand the exceptions to the rules that make things confusion.
The thing that stands out to me is that in the real world, the really crazy "false fronts" have loads of people who turn on the organization eventually, either in order to "sell out" or out of anger at feeling betrayed.
The one with less "heretics" tend to be more in the camp of "No, really these secrets are for your own damn good. You'll thank us later."
The degree to which these "false fronts" are entirely false, or are just little white lies, can be disputed. Like any introductory chemistry or physics class, you're told things in a very broad, general way, before you're "initiated" enough to understand the exceptions to the rules that make things confusion.
The thing that stands out to me is that in the real world, the really crazy "false fronts" have loads of people who turn on the organization eventually, either in order to "sell out" or out of anger at feeling betrayed.
The one with less "heretics" tend to be more in the camp of "No, really these secrets are for your own damn good. You'll thank us later."
DR-RAESH
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/12/2015 02:30 AM CDT
>>The one with less "heretics" tend to be more in the camp of "No, really these secrets are for your own damn good. You'll thank us later."
Pethians are more of that sort than a pyramid scheme sort of deal.
Certainly Pethians defect, much as with any sect, but it's rare (to the point where it may have never happened) for one who has reached the actual 'enlightenment' level to leave the sect.
-Raesh
"The trouble with atheism, is that it offers a limited range of curses.” - Two Serpents Rise
Pethians are more of that sort than a pyramid scheme sort of deal.
Certainly Pethians defect, much as with any sect, but it's rare (to the point where it may have never happened) for one who has reached the actual 'enlightenment' level to leave the sect.
-Raesh
"The trouble with atheism, is that it offers a limited range of curses.” - Two Serpents Rise
THAYET
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/12/2015 04:55 AM CDT
Given what seems to be going on with the Pethians overall, I'd wager that anybody that reaches that level of investment in the ideals/secrets/hidden knowledge of the sect has been so fundamentally altered by their experiences that leaving would be literally unthinkable. It's not like the Celestians or even the Nomads; there is something seriously, deeply funky going on with them on a personal level, to the point that the person they were before is basically gone (see also the Nameless One). It's something that really sets them apart from the other sects. It's also pretty spooky.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
BRAISK
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/12/2015 05:10 AM CDT
>If you're unfamiliar with mystery religions (or scientology), the idea is that there is a "false front" of basic religious truths for the uninitiated, and as someone progresses within the cult one learns more and more secrets, elaborating on what one initially believed, be it the nature of Hermes Thrice Great or Xenu.
It's been a few decades since I read up on Scientology, and even longer since I've studied the Order of the Golden Dawn. And I make no claim for to be among their initiated. What I can say is this: Each secret order of magick and every organized religion has a process for its members to rise to that state of "initiated". (For example, Scientology has a whole division of handlers.) That's a little different that the Prophets of G'nar Peth, who, according to what I've seen, experienced and read, do not wish to share any of their secrets.
Here's my qualm, though: If I've committed myself to the Sect, then I should be "approachable". And if I'm not approachable by the Elder Prophets, then I should have some credible clues to arrive at the process.
I'm willing to go down this path and I feel JOINing the Sect should represent the beginning of this journey, especially since I can no longer choose another Sect. In that vein of thinking, I'd like to make a case for the beginning of the journey through the mysteries of the Prophets.
Is there a process to become initiated (Advanced)? Or are we talking about something that isn't currently possible. Am I aspiring to something that is achievable, attainable, or am I relegated to the "sightless" as a player character forever.
One thing that struck me is how DR-Raesh said it made perfect sense once he went over all the clues (after he signed the NDA and read up). But is this something that a Player Character could piece together by 150 circles?
Lots of questions, I know. And if they are all answerable in the game, I'll stop here.
It's been a few decades since I read up on Scientology, and even longer since I've studied the Order of the Golden Dawn. And I make no claim for to be among their initiated. What I can say is this: Each secret order of magick and every organized religion has a process for its members to rise to that state of "initiated". (For example, Scientology has a whole division of handlers.) That's a little different that the Prophets of G'nar Peth, who, according to what I've seen, experienced and read, do not wish to share any of their secrets.
Here's my qualm, though: If I've committed myself to the Sect, then I should be "approachable". And if I'm not approachable by the Elder Prophets, then I should have some credible clues to arrive at the process.
I'm willing to go down this path and I feel JOINing the Sect should represent the beginning of this journey, especially since I can no longer choose another Sect. In that vein of thinking, I'd like to make a case for the beginning of the journey through the mysteries of the Prophets.
Is there a process to become initiated (Advanced)? Or are we talking about something that isn't currently possible. Am I aspiring to something that is achievable, attainable, or am I relegated to the "sightless" as a player character forever.
One thing that struck me is how DR-Raesh said it made perfect sense once he went over all the clues (after he signed the NDA and read up). But is this something that a Player Character could piece together by 150 circles?
Lots of questions, I know. And if they are all answerable in the game, I'll stop here.
ROBERTDH
Re: The G'nar Pethian and Blindness
08/12/2015 12:27 PM CDT
I can't imagine a world in which the truth the garden of paradise isn't instantly archived on a DR secrets page. The pethian mystery drama is more interesting without a solution!
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
