I finally got refractive field and it's kind of amusing. I do better if I just hide. Not that I'm complaining, I got the spell because i like the concept of the spell, but it is amusing to say the least. It is the ultimate invisibility as long as no one is looking.

>>Enter and exit rooms without any messaging(only Thieves with their passive spot ability up may see). This is without a skill check. This is very useful because the moment you are spotted, you can run away and the person that saw you will not know where you ran to.

This I had not considered. This could prove useful for reconnaissance and for first strike surprise opportunities.

Invisibility in DR is not meant to provide you with an exceptional boost in your Hiding skill. Conceptually, even an invisible person will leave obvious tells if he is terrible at sneaking around -- foot prints in the mud, disrupting the bushes as he pushes through, unfortunate odors and so on.

As Leilond pointed out, the point of invisibility is dramatically increased mobility. It's the possibility of being "in stealth" while running full stop up a road. Being supernatural powers, invisibility also "reforms" after being pointed out to simulate that while it's possible to track an invisible person that has been brought to your attention, the act does not actually stop the target from being invisible.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

>>Last word I recall hearing from the GM side of things is that RF should be capable of providing what was described as a sizable boost.

It can provide a sizable boost.

What I'm referring to as exceptional is when people complain that it should be impossible to be spotted with an invisibility power up "because you're invisible."

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

>Please to be providing Stalking vs Perception contest for passing between rooms unnoticed?

Yes, please take away the main benefit of this ability.

We don't have enough hiding and stalking buffs as is, especially terrible ones.

-Reverend Gidien

---

"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."

~Miyamoto Musashi

>>>>Yes, please take away the main benefit of this ability.

>>Nah, the benefit would still be there for the people that trained up their Hiding/Stalking ranks at level to their combats :)

>>Sucks for the people with only 2 ranks in Stalking though.

I think the point is moot anyway since Hiding and Stalking is going to be one skill in 3.0-- but I guess at that point would you be arguing that it contest Stealth on a move? What would be the point of invisibility then, just moving with no RT while hiding and periodic re-hiding with a possible slight bonus? I guess that would still be a pretty significant thing though.

Also I should note, even if I SEARCH and spot them in invisibility, until I POINT them out of invisibility they will still be classified as "Invisible" and the game will not message if they enter or leave the room nor will it message which direction they leave the room. Ignoring skill checks != good.

__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

"Please to be providing Stalking vs Perception contest for passing between rooms unnoticed?"

No. That would be stupid.

"Considering the concept seems to back up the skill check, I really don't see why it wasn't like that to begin with. Since invisibility would still give a bonus to stealth anyway and allow movement without any RT... invisibility would still have a purpose."

Invisibility doesn't bonus stealth skills. A number of spells or abilities associated with invisibility ALSO provide a stealth bonus but that is not a function of the state. Polo cloaks, Eclipse rings, ect do not bonus hiding or stalking in any way.


-Serc

""It's a hell of a thing, killing some text. Take away all the numbers and letters and punctuation it's got, and all the numbers and letters and punctuation it's ever gonna have." -- Clint Eastwood, Unforgiven."-- Bahb.

"Please to be providing Stalking vs Perception contest for passing between rooms unnoticed?"

No. That would be stupid.

I hope you were just being sarcastic, but in the case that you weren't I have to ask, why would that be stupid?

__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

>I hope you were just being sarcastic, but in the case that you weren't I have to ask, why would that be stupid?

1. Thieves can move room to room without RT already, and this grants a perception check. This would effectivly ruin invis for Thieves.

2. It was stated that the main benefit of invis is moving from room to room at full tilt with no check, changing that will mean post 3.0 it will be a crappy hide/stalk buff with little benefit.

3. Stealth is already taking some major hits in the combat departmnt without nerfing one of the best escape and/or first strike abilities there is.

4. With all due respect here Leilond, I think people are a bit tired of this crusade against stealth you seem to be on.

-Reverend Gidien

---

"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."

~Miyamoto Musashi

>>Serc

So, basically you wouldn't use the ability just because someone with more Perception ranks than you have Hiding/Stalking ranks would be able to see you. Because of this, the spell would no longer be worth a spell slot to you. This is your justification of calling something "stupid". I can understand that.

Personally, I would totally still use the spell because I know my Stealth ranks are high enough that I would be able to get around people without them noticing me anyway. But, that's just me.

>>1. Thieves can move room to room without RT already, and this grants a perception check. This would effectivly ruin invis for Thieves.

The 0 RT sneak between rooms only applies inside of towns and must be done from a hidden status. I am under the assumption that a Thief's invisibility would let them pass between rooms outside of towns with 0 RT. Also, invisibility grants the user the ability to perform many maneuvers that would otherwise bump said user out of the hidden status, such as SEARCHing(You cannot SEARCH while remaining hidden but you can SEARCh while remaining invisible).

>>2. It was stated that the main benefit of invis is moving from room to room at full tilt with no check, changing that will mean post 3.0 it will be a crappy hide/stalk buff with little benefit.

False. I will re-quote Armifer: "Invisibility in DR is not meant to provide you with an exceptional boost in your Hiding skill. Conceptually, even an invisible person will leave obvious tells if he is terrible at sneaking around -- foot prints in the mud, disrupting the bushes as he pushes through, unfortunate odors and so on."

In other words, Harry Potter even with his cloak of invisibility must make an effort to not draw attention to himself by breathing heavily, bumping objects and/or otherwise not being stealthy. Invisibility merely allows him to move freely without drawing immediate notice.

>>3. Stealth is already taking some major hits in the combat departmnt without nerfing one of the best escape and/or first strike abilities there is.

I'm... sorry? But there's really no good reason why an ability should be able to flat out ignore what should be a skill check. This is a global philosophy and isn't just applicable to stealth.

>>4. With all due respect here Leilond, I think people are a bit tired of this crusade against stealth you seem to be on.

I call out imbalances to systems where I see them, nothing more. Not once have I heard you say that negating a skill check is not fair. All I have heard is "Stop trying to nerf my ability!" which is an understandable knee-jerk reaction; however, I would ask that you try to consider this from an overall balance perspective. Who wouldn't use an ability that negated all skill checks? And who are the ones who are screwed because they cannot utilize said ability?

What is the problem with having to have actual skill in order to get past someone's Perception?

__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

"You're getting a bonus to skill with the spell so that justifies the slot."

You're getting a bonus that has been scaled to take into account that the primary purpose of invisibility is not to bonus stealth.

Turning any guild's invisibility ability into a hiding buff is also redundant for every single guild that has one.

So no, a slot is not justified.


">>invisibility functioning only as a 1-3 sec RT deduction isn't worthwhile."

"Well if you compare it to when you first start out, it's a 5-6 second roundtime for a new character"

Which scales down to min RT with well under 200 ranks. 140ish if you're correct. That is not a significant span and is certainly not justification for an ability.

Also, Invisibility is organically available to four guilds, Moonmages, Rangers, Thieves and Necros.

I know for sure that Rangers and Thieves and I'm fairly sure Necros, can already stalk with no RT. So for three guilds invisibility would be absolutely nothing and for one guild it would save them 2 seconds of sneak RT. To even have invisibility at that point would be ridiculous.



-Serc

""It's a hell of a thing, killing some text. Take away all the numbers and letters and punctuation it's got, and all the numbers and letters and punctuation it's ever gonna have." -- Clint Eastwood, Unforgiven."-- Bahb.

>>I know for sure that Rangers and Thieves and I'm fairly sure Necros, can already stalk with no RT. So for three guilds invisibility would be absolutely nothing and for one guild it would save them 2 seconds of sneak RT. To even have invisibility at that point would be ridiculous.

You should read all of the posts. I'll quote the bit of information that everyone seems to gloss over.

The 0 RT sneak between rooms only applies inside of towns [for Thieves, and outside of towns for Rangers] and must be done from a hidden status. I am under the assumption that a [Thief or Ranger's] invisibility would let them pass between rooms [both inside and out of towns] with 0 RT. Also, invisibility grants the user the ability to perform many maneuvers that would otherwise bump said user out of the hidden status, such as SEARCHing(You cannot SEARCH while remaining hidden but you can SEARCH while remaining invisible).

Also, Invisibility automatically refreshes itself so it acts as a pulsing auto-hide, also requiring 0 RT. This auto-hide even happens when you're immobile, stunned or unconscious. That is yet another benefit to Invisibility over plain hiding which is quite substantial and has saved my life many times.

__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

What I don't get is why you want a passive ability to spot people moving around while invisible based on your perception.

If you're that concerned about it you can find them by actively looking with search and then pointing. You <b>should<b> have to actively use those ranks.

AND

You have Eye of Kertigen that can pulse and pull people out of inviso/hiding.

It's the pot calling the kettle black. You want perception ranks to do everything without having to do anything, yet we want invisibility to allow stealthy movements without insane ranks.

I understand it's important to make those hard earned ranks worthwhile, but playability and enjoyment really do need to stay at the forefront. Unfortunately I think that's an issue GMs and players both have forgotten.


-Coralin

Cierzen whispers to your group, "I'm stone sober and the dragon isn't pink so I kind of think this is real."

>The 0 RT sneak between rooms only applies inside of towns and must be done from a hidden status.

That doesn't negate what I said, and to be fair I use invis about 90% of the time in town to avoid guards and people who are looking for me. So yes, Thieves can do this already as I said and it ould make the ability rather useless. The need to use invis out of town rarely comes up, mostly in spars etc.

>False. I will re-quote Armifer

As will I, only I will quote the part that you left out.

>As Leilond (I honestly find it funny that you left this out) pointed out, the point of invisibility is dramatically increased mobility. It's the possibility of being "in stealth" while running full stop up a road. Being supernatural powers, invisibility also "reforms" after being pointed out to simulate that while it's possible to track an invisible person that has been brought to your attention, the act does not actually stop the target from being invisible.

Meaning the point is exatly what I said it was.

>I'm... sorry? But there's really no good reason why an ability should be able to flat out ignore what should be a skill check. This is a global philosophy and isn't just applicable to stealth.

If this were globl, applied to ALL abilities I would agree. However that is not not the case.

>I call out imbalances to systems where I see them, nothing more

Over and over and over again? We get it, you want invis nerfed and you have been asking for it for a few weeks now every chance you get. I (along with a few others) strongly disagree with you and we are going to be just as vocal in the abilities defense as you are in regards to it's demise.

>What is the problem with having to have actual skill in order to get past someone's Perception?

It has been said that post 3.0 perception will gain bonuses (or stealth negatives) for multiple search attempts, taking the "actual skill" and throwing it right the window.

-Reverend Gidien

---

"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."

~Miyamoto Musashi

But there are ways around your retreat problem.

Scream at them, use a MB rune, snap a TM spell to stun and then advance. It's your fault you only train a melee weapon, just like it would be someone's fault for not training stalking or hiding or whatever.

It wouldn't be so horrible if searching pulled someone out of invisibility, but it should be a toggle. You can set it to either just search and leave them be or you can set it, based on your perception ranks, to pull them out when you search. The more ranks you have the more people you could potential pull out of hiding/inviso.


-Coralin

Cierzen whispers to your group, "I'm stone sober and the dragon isn't pink so I kind of think this is real."

I'd almost rather have perception provide a huge boost to your defenses if someone uses a stealth attack against you.

Like you'd hear them knock their bow or draw their sword kinda deal and then that would cause you to be more on guard. It would only be reflective when they strike of course.

Oh how about we think of abilities or new things that would guard against all these things you dislike about invisibility.

Like a bardic enchantment that mimics sonar. Every so often it'll pulse and draw out mana or fatigue or something and give you a heads up. If you notice something you can pull them from hiding/inviso. You want it to pulse more it'll cost more mana or fatigue.

I guess I'm trying to say that we should look for balanced alternatives to spotting people rather than removing/hurting an already meager ability.

And while retreat has it's flaws it has to be the way it is. It isn't fair that a circle 10 character would be insta-dead because a 150th bard managed to type advance before they typed west.


-Coralin

Cierzen whispers to your group, "I'm stone sober and the dragon isn't pink so I kind of think this is real."

Two things and I am done with this horse.

1. HUNT should have a shorter RT, allow stalking of those who are invis (it might already do this, I'm honestly not sure at the moment), and allow you to stalk down people who have moved out of the range. This woud greatly help the situation and allow the use of a check.

2. IMO every guild should have a spell or ability that will pull people from invis/hiding and it either pulses or makes invis/hiding harder/imposible for a period of time.

-Reverend Gidien

---

"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."

~Miyamoto Musashi

First of all I just want to say that the last 30 posts in this thread belong in the stealth folder, not Moon Mages.

Secondly, invisibility really doesn't need yet another nerf so that's it's only useful to people who script combat 24/7. RF is already useless in invasions or hunting areas where high perception critters will just point you out constantly the nanosecond you walk into a room unless you DO have those high stealth ranks.

~ Pansophist Kougen

"Tell me thy company, and I'll tell thee what thou art." - Miguel de Cervantes

>>At best, there was a slight off-topic wavering here. You guys are keeping it on the right side of borderline civility, but I wouldn't test that boundary too much further. I will not have too much of an issue with debates as long as they don't roll downhill.

Don't you know us moon mages always travel the edge.

_______________________
As good almost kill a man as kill a good book; who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, God's image; but he who destroys a good book, kills reason itself, kills the image of God, as it were in the eye.
-John Milton