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<<This is a fantasy role-playing game. We can role-play cooperative, considerate individuals unburdened by selfish instincts and brittle self-perceptions.>>
Well said. This aspect of interaction doesn't just affect creation systems but other situations that occur in Dragonrealms, as well.
- Simon
DWARB-POWER
LOFTONM1
Re: Mithyl
10/12/2006 10:37 PM CDT
>>We can role-play cooperative, considerate individuals unburdened by selfish instincts and brittle self-perceptions.
We can also play complete jerks, antisocial or otherwise. Such freedoms don't shield you from ugly terms as "afk-scripter" or "griefer", but at the same time those who do things for (nearly) nothing are not similarly bombarded with terms like "mule", instead being typically lauded as how things are supposed to work (case in point, empaths).
J'Lo, no that other one
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
We can also play complete jerks, antisocial or otherwise. Such freedoms don't shield you from ugly terms as "afk-scripter" or "griefer", but at the same time those who do things for (nearly) nothing are not similarly bombarded with terms like "mule", instead being typically lauded as how things are supposed to work (case in point, empaths).
J'Lo, no that other one
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
STORMSPIRIT
Re: Mithyl
10/12/2006 10:48 PM CDT
i should have been more clear - I was pointing out, that in the academic literature, the prisoner's dilemma is not considered so much a social psychological theory as it is a framework to investigate other theories in.
for instance, research on cooperation behavior might use a prisoner's dilemma type experiment to see how dyads learn turn-taking to maximize their benefit. thus, the prisoner's dilemma is not a theory to be investigated, but a tool or concept to use to investigate with.
my comment was more a criticism of Simon's loose appropriation of social psychology than DR-related contribution (this is the conflicts folder, after all!).
on the subject topic, however, considering all of the help Mithyl offers new moonmages, and his willingness to loan his boat to anybody who asks, i don't see a problem with him cornering the market on CJs. seems like putting money in his pocket ends up benefiting me as well. granted, maybe he is able to do this because so many people buy CJs from him.
and honestly, what really matters to the casual CJ buyer is convenience. if i had to pay 2 extra plats not to wait a couple days for a CJ, then i'd do it.
of course, given that Mithyl delivers fast and inexpensive CJ's, AND regularly helps out other players, maybe he should just be president.
for instance, research on cooperation behavior might use a prisoner's dilemma type experiment to see how dyads learn turn-taking to maximize their benefit. thus, the prisoner's dilemma is not a theory to be investigated, but a tool or concept to use to investigate with.
my comment was more a criticism of Simon's loose appropriation of social psychology than DR-related contribution (this is the conflicts folder, after all!).
on the subject topic, however, considering all of the help Mithyl offers new moonmages, and his willingness to loan his boat to anybody who asks, i don't see a problem with him cornering the market on CJs. seems like putting money in his pocket ends up benefiting me as well. granted, maybe he is able to do this because so many people buy CJs from him.
and honestly, what really matters to the casual CJ buyer is convenience. if i had to pay 2 extra plats not to wait a couple days for a CJ, then i'd do it.
of course, given that Mithyl delivers fast and inexpensive CJ's, AND regularly helps out other players, maybe he should just be president.
ELENDIL1
Re: Mithyl
10/13/2006 12:58 AM CDT
The one thing about the prisoner's dilemma that they never take into account is what happens after you betray the other person. You might have to worry about your life after you betray them.
Player of Celestian Durandil, Enchanter of the House of the Silver Star
Player of Celestian Durandil, Enchanter of the House of the Silver Star
OUDER
Re: Mithyl
10/13/2006 08:11 AM CDT
<< The one thing about the prisoner's dilemma that they never take into account is what happens after you betray the other person. You might have to worry about your life after you betray them.
My main concern is when a player who doesn't like Moon Mages buys a senior MM with the stated purpose of flooding the market. We really don't have a defense against that except letting that player get bored and moving on.
My main concern is when a player who doesn't like Moon Mages buys a senior MM with the stated purpose of flooding the market. We really don't have a defense against that except letting that player get bored and moving on.
HEADHUNTER71
Re: Mithyl
10/13/2006 08:47 AM CDT
| We can role-play cooperative, considerate individuals unburdened by selfish instincts and brittle self-perceptions. |
o...hmmm
| We can also play complete jerks, antisocial or otherwise. |
phew!
:oP Ragran
DWARB-POWER
Re: Mithyl
10/13/2006 02:18 PM CDT
<<The one thing about the prisoner's dilemma that they never take into account is what happens after you betray the other person. You might have to worry about your life after you betray them.>>
It's all about rejection and/or cooperation. Tit for tat. You can all cooperate with each other and sell your CJs or any item you make at a certain price and all be the benefactors of working together. But, as soon as one person defects from working together, mainly one person "wins big" and the other person "loses big." If both people defect from the cooperative mindset than both people earn something but to a smaller degree than if they would have cooperated. This game only addresses a relationship of two people (dyad relationship), not something as complex as number groups interacting with one another.
I remember bringing up that point that you just made. It's very relevant when discussing this game because the sense of being rejected constantly will harbor sentiments that you do not want to work with the person rejecting you again. The game really doesn't talk about betrayal from a long-term perspective because the objective of the game is who can get the most points.
This is something that is brought up with each creation system that has potential to sell something, events and other situations where you have potential to interact with another character (you know, role-play) fighting with a goal in mind.
- Simon
It's all about rejection and/or cooperation. Tit for tat. You can all cooperate with each other and sell your CJs or any item you make at a certain price and all be the benefactors of working together. But, as soon as one person defects from working together, mainly one person "wins big" and the other person "loses big." If both people defect from the cooperative mindset than both people earn something but to a smaller degree than if they would have cooperated. This game only addresses a relationship of two people (dyad relationship), not something as complex as number groups interacting with one another.
I remember bringing up that point that you just made. It's very relevant when discussing this game because the sense of being rejected constantly will harbor sentiments that you do not want to work with the person rejecting you again. The game really doesn't talk about betrayal from a long-term perspective because the objective of the game is who can get the most points.
This is something that is brought up with each creation system that has potential to sell something, events and other situations where you have potential to interact with another character (you know, role-play) fighting with a goal in mind.
- Simon
GRANGERSITE
Re: Mithyl
10/13/2006 03:53 PM CDT
"My main concern is when a player who doesn't like Moon Mages buys a senior MM with the stated purpose of flooding the market. We really don't have a defense against that except letting that player get bored and moving on."
Sure we do. If it really bothers you, poison the well as a lesson to all; sell CJs for a gold each.
Wulfcat
Sure we do. If it really bothers you, poison the well as a lesson to all; sell CJs for a gold each.
Wulfcat
SHAMELESS
Re: Mithyl
10/13/2006 05:20 PM CDT
I remember in WoW I would ratchet up the price of a finished trade good by about 5% after each successful sale. It would counterbalance the natural trend of n00bs undercutting eachother. I would lower my prices to meet reasonable competition, but as soon as they got tired and gave up [which was always] I would start gouging again. About 75% of the time people would still buy. The AH system there is pretty nice because it insulates you from the buyer -- as a result I felt no qualms about totally ripping people off [if they stopped buying for a few days, I would lower the price by similar increments].
Here in our more interpersonal world I get more of an impulse to "be nice" and "give someone a good deal". So I imagine my tendency would be to charge people less for enchantments. (Perhaps I am "a wuss" in this regard.) This tendency works somewhat in reverse, like players tipping Empaths more than half of their hunting income.
But even so, I imagine the more practical way to uphold the profitability of non-combat pursuits is to be greedy and ruthless. There would be no need to set a price if everyone was trying to make as much money as possible. :) Still, when apathy prevails, its easy to give in to the drive to accomodate. But then again, I don't own a gweth, so I have no idea what you dudes are talking about.
They Took Our Jobs!
Plaith "Casino" Duran'driel
Here in our more interpersonal world I get more of an impulse to "be nice" and "give someone a good deal". So I imagine my tendency would be to charge people less for enchantments. (Perhaps I am "a wuss" in this regard.) This tendency works somewhat in reverse, like players tipping Empaths more than half of their hunting income.
But even so, I imagine the more practical way to uphold the profitability of non-combat pursuits is to be greedy and ruthless. There would be no need to set a price if everyone was trying to make as much money as possible. :) Still, when apathy prevails, its easy to give in to the drive to accomodate. But then again, I don't own a gweth, so I have no idea what you dudes are talking about.
They Took Our Jobs!
Plaith "Casino" Duran'driel
GODBANE
Re: Mithyl
10/13/2006 05:54 PM CDT
Mithyl should just buy some other high-level characters and sell cheap creation system items to us. That way we can all win and stop worrying about CJs of all things.
LOVELIFE
PEPEROMAN
Re: Mithyl
10/13/2006 10:02 PM CDT
hahaha i'm tired, but it would be great if all these accounts posting nice things about mithyl are all owned by the same person!
KCRMSON
Re: Mithyl
10/13/2006 10:39 PM CDT
But does he make his wonderful scrolls for free like I do? Heheh. I only cap at incredible quality or so.
-- Toldorf GurKct & Briano Eno'Frippoli
The Servant blinks at the glowing ball and shakes its head.
-- Toldorf GurKct & Briano Eno'Frippoli
The Servant blinks at the glowing ball and shakes its head.
SPRCOW
Re: Mithyl
10/14/2006 08:31 AM CDT
I only make 60 rank CJs so far, but I'll sell you them for 3 or 4 gold. Just come to plat!
... which further demonstrates the point that this situation is dictated more by laws of supply and demand than by non-zero-sum game rationale. Similar to Mithyl, I try to price my items at a level where they will be purchased. Even at 3 gold, they're too expensive for most players to justify using all the time, so they're mostly a novelty item or a boost in times of particular need. I still spend barely a fraction of my time making them, and I'm basically in a monopoly position, outside of personal transactions.
I suppose I might be able to ask a little more, but lacking anything really to spend my money ON, I guess I don't really have the motivation to crank up the prices and prevent the less wealthy players from having the opportunity to buy them, should they desire.
Check out www.drplat.com - the DragonRealms Platinum community webpage!
... which further demonstrates the point that this situation is dictated more by laws of supply and demand than by non-zero-sum game rationale. Similar to Mithyl, I try to price my items at a level where they will be purchased. Even at 3 gold, they're too expensive for most players to justify using all the time, so they're mostly a novelty item or a boost in times of particular need. I still spend barely a fraction of my time making them, and I'm basically in a monopoly position, outside of personal transactions.
I suppose I might be able to ask a little more, but lacking anything really to spend my money ON, I guess I don't really have the motivation to crank up the prices and prevent the less wealthy players from having the opportunity to buy them, should they desire.
Check out www.drplat.com - the DragonRealms Platinum community webpage!
LOVELIFE
Re: Mithyl
10/14/2006 08:45 AM CDT
I can't speak for the ones others get but he's been very generous to me. :) Mithyl's my enchanting hero.
~Coryne
~Coryne
DWARB-POWER
Re: Mithyl
10/14/2006 02:08 PM CDT
I think Mithyl is a good guy, especially as witnessed from how he is handling this thread. But, I do understand the situation that the initial poster is referring to as it is something everyone has to face with in every single creation system if the purpose is to sell something.
- Simon
- Simon
MITHYLDR
Re: Mithyl
10/14/2006 02:35 PM CDT
>>of course, given that Mithyl delivers fast and inexpensive CJ's, AND regularly helps out other players, maybe he should just be president.
Actually, I'd like to have Mithyl run for King of Throne City since that's where he lives. The only trouble is people keep walking his poor constituents in the Thug sector. Oh well, that's life.
Just kidding of course.
Chris
Player of Mithyl
P.S. Vote for Mithyl for King of Throne City. He'll loan you his boat to get your vote!
Actually, I'd like to have Mithyl run for King of Throne City since that's where he lives. The only trouble is people keep walking his poor constituents in the Thug sector. Oh well, that's life.
Just kidding of course.
Chris
Player of Mithyl
P.S. Vote for Mithyl for King of Throne City. He'll loan you his boat to get your vote!
MITHYLDR
Re: Mithyl
10/14/2006 02:43 PM CDT
>>But does he make his wonderful scrolls for free like I do? Heheh. I only cap at incredible quality or so.
Yes, I make free scrolls for the newer enchanters, it's a great way for them to train and much cheaper than a spellbook. Any young moon mage that needs scrolls or divination bones or even a burin can contact me and I'm happy to make them and help with any other questions they might have.
Chris
Player of Mithyl
AIM MITHYLDR
Yes, I make free scrolls for the newer enchanters, it's a great way for them to train and much cheaper than a spellbook. Any young moon mage that needs scrolls or divination bones or even a burin can contact me and I'm happy to make them and help with any other questions they might have.
Chris
Player of Mithyl
AIM MITHYLDR
LOCOCO
Re: Mithyl
10/14/2006 03:38 PM CDT
And god forbid, if your a repeat customer with Mithyl, he recharges you inviso rings for free, and gives a addition cut on your purchases..
(in his best Elmer Fudd doing Apocolypse Now voice) "Oh, da horroar, da horror ...."
Robo
A dust bunny furtively tugs a label from Niteshiver's clothing that reads, "Closet Conservative".
(in his best Elmer Fudd doing Apocolypse Now voice) "Oh, da horroar, da horror ...."
Robo
A dust bunny furtively tugs a label from Niteshiver's clothing that reads, "Closet Conservative".
KCRMSON
Re: Mithyl
10/14/2006 03:49 PM CDT
Chris, remember before you got Mithyl when you were training Chrispyan? Those were fun days, eh?
When're you gonna visit my section of Elanthia again?
-- Toldorf GurKct & Briano Eno'Frippoli
The Servant blinks at the glowing ball and shakes its head.
When're you gonna visit my section of Elanthia again?
-- Toldorf GurKct & Briano Eno'Frippoli
The Servant blinks at the glowing ball and shakes its head.
SHAMELESS
LOVELIFE
Re: Mithyl
10/14/2006 05:59 PM CDT
After you went through all that effort to throw her in... sheesh.
SHAMELESS
Re: Mithyl
10/14/2006 08:39 PM CDT
<<After you went through all that effort to throw her in... sheesh.
I told her FROSTED cherry poptarts. I need the simple sugars in order to philosophize. But Mithyl, like Death itself, inexorably undoes whatever order and justice we attempt to instill in this world.
Still not quite funny,
Plaith
I told her FROSTED cherry poptarts. I need the simple sugars in order to philosophize. But Mithyl, like Death itself, inexorably undoes whatever order and justice we attempt to instill in this world.
Still not quite funny,
Plaith
LOVELIFE
Re: Mithyl
10/15/2006 04:53 PM CDT
<<After you went through all that effort to throw her in... sheesh.>>
<I told her FROSTED cherry poptarts. I need the simple sugars in order to philosophize. But Mithyl, like Death itself, inexorably undoes whatever order and justice we attempt to instill in this world.
Still not quite funny,
Plaith >
I knew I loved him for some reason! :D
Still laughing,
~Coryne
<I told her FROSTED cherry poptarts. I need the simple sugars in order to philosophize. But Mithyl, like Death itself, inexorably undoes whatever order and justice we attempt to instill in this world.
Still not quite funny,
Plaith >
I knew I loved him for some reason! :D
Still laughing,
~Coryne
THESAGEONE
Re: Mithyl
10/16/2006 09:45 AM CDT
Armifer brings up a good point by posting that link.
While it is unlikely that there would be enough cooperation for this, I believe that moonmages in general would benefit more if they could work together and set a base price for everything.
Perhaps post a guideline for everything a moonmage can make and then converse to set agreed upon prices.
Again, that would be effective if everyone could cooperate, but if that were the case there wouldn't be a place to post this.
While it is unlikely that there would be enough cooperation for this, I believe that moonmages in general would benefit more if they could work together and set a base price for everything.
Perhaps post a guideline for everything a moonmage can make and then converse to set agreed upon prices.
Again, that would be effective if everyone could cooperate, but if that were the case there wouldn't be a place to post this.
VROTSOSJ
Re: Mithyl
10/16/2006 10:10 AM CDT
Moon mages didn't have a conflict folder for years because "CONFLICT IS BAD!!!" and prices weren't even then either.
Fix some bugs, vipers still drop gweths I don't know how many times I can bug/post this and still not get it fixed, make it so the cantrip that allows you to see constellations out of season can be used for enchanting or scribing or something even if there is a timer like...you can only do it once a day for enchanting purposes or something.
Apart from making broken things actually work correctly and a few tweaks that would help out some, it's entirely player based. Just start a CJ syndicate, or a gweth syndicate etc... Recruit thieves for supplies, etc...
I am --- Navak
Fix some bugs, vipers still drop gweths I don't know how many times I can bug/post this and still not get it fixed, make it so the cantrip that allows you to see constellations out of season can be used for enchanting or scribing or something even if there is a timer like...you can only do it once a day for enchanting purposes or something.
Apart from making broken things actually work correctly and a few tweaks that would help out some, it's entirely player based. Just start a CJ syndicate, or a gweth syndicate etc... Recruit thieves for supplies, etc...
I am --- Navak
JULIAN
Re: Mithyl
11/06/2006 10:37 AM CST
>>While it is unlikely that there would be enough cooperation for this, I believe that moonmages in general would benefit more if they could work together and set a base price for everything.<<
Some would be better off, but some would be worse off. The demand for CJs is relatively price sensitive, as some mages have pointed out. Collusion to keep the price high might just carry a price too dear.
Besides that - once you have the skill, your cost is just around 1 gold each and less than 2 minutes preparation time. You didn't honestly expect 4000% markup to last forever, did you?
M.
PS> <3 Mithyl.
Some would be better off, but some would be worse off. The demand for CJs is relatively price sensitive, as some mages have pointed out. Collusion to keep the price high might just carry a price too dear.
Besides that - once you have the skill, your cost is just around 1 gold each and less than 2 minutes preparation time. You didn't honestly expect 4000% markup to last forever, did you?
M.
PS> <3 Mithyl.
HAPLON
Re: Mithyl
11/28/2006 09:43 AM CST
Eh i didnt bother to read all the posts...just a couple at the start...
and if it makes you feel better my CJ are capped...and give them out for free...when the constelations are in the sky to make them...otherwise people have to bring me the sigils on there own...
I dont sell any moonie products [im lazy]...i do assemble gweths if brought materials...i certainly dont give out sigils to mess with moonie magic and have been kinda upset at the increase of barbarians i see running around with them....
shrug just a thought
and if it makes you feel better my CJ are capped...and give them out for free...when the constelations are in the sky to make them...otherwise people have to bring me the sigils on there own...
I dont sell any moonie products [im lazy]...i do assemble gweths if brought materials...i certainly dont give out sigils to mess with moonie magic and have been kinda upset at the increase of barbarians i see running around with them....
shrug just a thought
SYLVERWIND
Re: Mithyl
11/28/2006 10:51 AM CST
who are you and why should any of us care?
Rev. Reene
"It is in vain to say human beings ought to be satisfied with tranquility: they must have action; and they will make it if they cannot find it." - Jane Eyre
Make some action!
http://reene.euphoricsoup.com/text/roleplaying.htmlWho
Rev. Reene
"It is in vain to say human beings ought to be satisfied with tranquility: they must have action; and they will make it if they cannot find it." - Jane Eyre
Make some action!
http://reene.euphoricsoup.com/text/roleplaying.htmlWho
OUDER
Re: Mithyl
11/28/2006 11:13 AM CST
I would like to some changes to unbends. They are aimed mainly at countering the unbend mules that seem to be around. Here are some ideas:
First, I would like to see unbends degrade over time. I would suggest the period as matching the appearance of Durgaulda. That would be long enough to be useful, but it would reduce the number of people just carrying them around for no real reason. Potentially it would make it more difficult for non-Moon Mages to use because nMM's would not be able to focus on them to make sure they were still good.
In times of war that involve GMPC's we could turn them out as needed. The tendency would be to make unbends for specific GMPC attacks rather than generic "kill all lunar magic" sigils.
Second, move them into the "difficult" category of enchantement that allows them to be made only one at a time rather than churning them out by the dozen.
Third, move the cost back to a plat.
First, I would like to see unbends degrade over time. I would suggest the period as matching the appearance of Durgaulda. That would be long enough to be useful, but it would reduce the number of people just carrying them around for no real reason. Potentially it would make it more difficult for non-Moon Mages to use because nMM's would not be able to focus on them to make sure they were still good.
In times of war that involve GMPC's we could turn them out as needed. The tendency would be to make unbends for specific GMPC attacks rather than generic "kill all lunar magic" sigils.
Second, move them into the "difficult" category of enchantement that allows them to be made only one at a time rather than churning them out by the dozen.
Third, move the cost back to a plat.
SYLVERWIND
Re: Mithyl
11/28/2006 11:21 AM CST
Haha... I thought you were serious for a second.
Well played sir.
Rev. Reene
"It is in vain to say human beings ought to be satisfied with tranquility: they must have action; and they will make it if they cannot find it." - Jane Eyre
Make some action!
http://reene.euphoricsoup.com/text/roleplaying.html
Well played sir.
Rev. Reene
"It is in vain to say human beings ought to be satisfied with tranquility: they must have action; and they will make it if they cannot find it." - Jane Eyre
Make some action!
http://reene.euphoricsoup.com/text/roleplaying.html
HEADHUNTER71
Re: Mithyl
11/29/2006 01:52 PM CST
| and give them out for free...when the constelations are in the sky to make them. |
awesome! im putting in an order. next time the constellations are out i need 75 masters. seriously, 75.
thanks.
you can email me at my DR account when they're ready. you rawk for doing them fer free.
:oP Ragran
EMMIERAGE
Re: Mithyl
01/03/2007 01:04 PM CST
I know this thread is about 2 months old (atleast the beginning of it) As a mm enchanter, I don't give a rats behind what he sells cj's for. He can sell them till his heart is content and his bank account is overflowing, I'd still buy them from him instead of making my own. LOL
Gotta love Mithyl, he's a sweetie, and looks out for the younglings.
~~
>ask shadowling about Solomon
The shadowling exclaims, "Bibayaritoo mi!"
The tiny shadowling glares at you.
Gotta love Mithyl, he's a sweetie, and looks out for the younglings.
~~
>ask shadowling about Solomon
The shadowling exclaims, "Bibayaritoo mi!"
The tiny shadowling glares at you.
