Whats the best way to lock Targeted Magic for Moon Mages?

Is it TKT? DO? TKS? Something else I am missing?

Thanks

Best way to train TM in combat is to rapid fire snap casts. Burn will be a good option against shield bearing opponents, but DO will do just fine otherwise. TKT hits really hard I felt, and can be tricky to keep ammo on the ground for, especially if your critter drops loot.
Prep, target, harness a small amount of mana, cast, repeat.

But truthfully, the best way to earn TM is in classes.

Yes, if you feel the need to rehash the argument that a magic primary, armor/weapon tertiary guild is going to have a simple time being able to train TM in combat, by all means, bring something new to the discussion.

>Again no. If you're wanting to lock as fast as possible, just prep, target, cast. As high of mana as you can keep up ad infinitum. No need for the harness unless you for some reason need that extra target time.
I believe it's already been discussed why this is best. If you can hit stuff with zero pause snaps, then yay, you're TM underhunting, but the three seconds accrued from harnessing is plenty of time for a decent aim, it'll facilitate your mana regen, and is rapid enough to train TM in most circumstances.

Also, CRS is going to lock PM/Harn just as quickly as PD, and doesn't benefit from the insta-prep of targeting. But sure, six of one, half a dozen of another.

I don't whine about it at all; I was less interested in combat than I was in circling, and found I could move magics faster through classes than by not being able to train TM in combat and catching up tert skills to my prime skills. I don't think that's remotely unreasonable or dissimilar from any other guild in game; the number of barbs or rangers who have mech (or in a rangers case, TM) on par with their combats is probably a lot lower than those who don't.

The fact of the matter is primary skillsets will outpace tertiary skill sets; telling someone they're doing it wrong because they haven't kept a tert skillset on par with a primary skillset just makes me want to laugh at you. Plenty of people bust their chops training something up, and I think that's impressive. Plenty of people don't, and that's just as cool.

>You're acting like critters have training ranges that only span 10 ranks or something. It's very easy to train everything in the same hunting ground.
Not at all; I'm remembering that realistically, due to the combat/magic spread, it's very likely you will rapidly get to the point where training TM on a critter means 'get it before it gets to melee'. Honestly, I'm not even sure why this is an issue for you; Warrior mages and Clerics often suffer from having too wide a spread in their TM and combats. The spread is even trickier for Moonies. A 10 rank spread is CLEARLY not what you have; with 402 in TM, and approximately a 300 combat average, I sincerely doubt you'll be training both combats and TM on, say, baby/fledgling gryphons.

>No one is saying OMG DON'T LET YOUR TM PASS PARRY. That's just silly. I'm saying keep up your combats so that you can move everything along in an organic manner. Which is surprisingly simple if you just go do stuff instead of getting it taught.
Yes. That is what you are saying. And some people do not do that, and then, the most expedited way to train TM is... classes. And judging from your PM, you aren't even at the point where the spread starts getting particularly nasty.

>But since you're basically admitting to not caring enough about combat and TM to excel at it, doesn't that mean you should abstain from erroneously answering 'how to train TM' questions?
While spamming weak targeted spells in combat is clearly and obviously the best way to train the skill, in the same way that say, swimming the Feldasu is the best way to train swimming between 100 and 300 ranks of swimming, for those moonies that have allowed their TM to outpace their combats, the best way to train TM is to sit in classes.

>This is a common problem among Armor/Survival/Weapon/Defense/Combat/Whatever tertiary guilds. I can't even tell you how many times I've had to basically reteach Clerics/WMs/MMs/Bards how to train because they've let their primary weapon/tm/random circling offense far outpace their defenses. Anywhere they can hunt to circle they die. They get frustrated and go back to sitting in classes for what they need, exacerbating the problem. It's time to stop perpetuating the myth that nothing can be done to solve this.

You're not reteaching them anything; you're advising them to not exacerbate the issue. My Cleric has the same issue; weapons mildly outpace defenses and to circle, he needs to spend time working defenses to get to the point where he can hop into combat with something that'll decently train decently. Le sigh. No one is suggesting that it's impossible to solve this issue; I even outright stated, with my Moonie, I was more interested in circle chasing than catching up my combats. The problem however is more extreme than your Clerics/WMs/MMs/Bard list; this isn't a secondary skill that's outpaced a tertiary skill, it's a PRIMARY skill that outpaces a tertiary skill. Moonies who wish to keep moving TM in combat must very conscientiously spend a lot of time in combat. It's totally doable; for example, my Necromancer has about a 10% spread between Evasion (primary survival) and shield/parry/armor. Plenty of combat Moonies are out there, who choose to train that way.

Truthfully, most useful point you made was that listening to classes exacerbates the issue; you are obviously correct about this, and I should have added this addendum to my original point of 'just listen to classes'. Training TM in classes will keep it moving, but it will also further the distance between what you can hunt with magic and what you can survive hunting. Pacing yourself is key.

The answer to this was posted much earlier, but just posting my agreement: TKS (with a capped shortbow or longbow). Do not underestimate the effect of using these bows as ammo; I still see a lot of monster MMs using bolts/arrows etc. Don't, unless your creature gen is too slow to handle the bows.

CrS or PD while that kills helps some, but it's rare to have a hunting ground that swarms that well. I use the TKS time to train a bit of arcana with SOD and a camb armband.

>> Moonies who wish to keep moving TM in combat must very conscientiously spend a lot of time in combat.

You're comparing TM to other offensive skills like they can be compared.

TM caps are higher than weapon caps - you can milk critters for longer to keep that TM rolling - if you need to spend a bit more time in a hunting ground to do it, well that's just how it goes.

In fact, why is learning even an issue? Spend 5 minutes in combat, lock your skills, go do something else. It's just that easy.

>> A 10 rank spread is CLEARLY not what you have; with 402 in TM, and approximately a 300 combat average, I sincerely doubt you'll be training both combats and TM on, say, baby/fledgling gryphons.

... Gryphons teach TM past 400 and are easily huntable at 300 combats. Point?

>> Yes. That is what you are saying. And some people do not do that, and then, the most expedited way to train TM is... classes.

His point is to stop sitting in TM classes so much. You keep making this moot point about how you CHOOSE to listen to just Target classes - listen to some Evasion if you've got such a huge problem with a skill you're learning all the time outpacing skills you barely train. It's a "combat" skill; not a "sit on your butt while braiding grass" skill.

Your problem is the same as say, someone who sits in a longbow class all the time - training it in combat would certainly suck if they were taught it to the point that melee = instant death. It's the exact same situation here, you just refuse to accept it because you want to make excuses. My suggestion? Crank that Reflex, put up Seer's/IOE/CoL if your character is that horribly lopsided. My barb has 800 tert Appraisal; I barely train it, and I DON'T play TF. It's not near as difficult as you're claiming it is.

---

IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

Also, how many Rangers/Paladins keep TM on par with their combats? I very rarely see Paladins that do, and have never seen a Ranger that does. Anyone chime in on that?

>This is a different case entirely. Most new Paladins/Rangers I know do. Older Paladins/Rangers (you know, the ones that had HUNDREDS of ranks before their guild got TM?) generally don't. Though there are still exceptions to this.
Again, I've seen incredibly few that do this. Anecdotal data and whatnot. What about Empaths? Manipulate has been out for... uh, some time (?) now, and I know there are many diligent and impressive combat Empaths, I also sincerely doubt there are many that use manipulate as their main method for training Empathy. I could be wrong of course, and I'm sure there are Empaths out there who can keep Empathy moving through combat alone; I just don't know any. Again, anecdotal data.
>You keep bringing up this ridiculous point, so let me spell this out in simple speak. In all caps. Because you don't seem to get it. NO ONE IS ADVOCATING THIS.
Now you're confused; People are absolutely advocating training in combat. I've merely pointing out a reliable way to train TM out of combat, no fuss no mess. My original comment that got this obnoxious discussion rolling again was that it was easiest to train TM in classes. I maintain this is true (in the conditions I have specified, that is, when TM outpaces your combats, which we all agree is easy to have happen), because, by your own point, the only thing to train TM on will readily become critters that can absolutely destroy you; the risk of death is simply too high for moonies whose TM>combats, which is a severe impediment to learning.

>Am I saying nerf your TM to make sure your parry stays even with it? No.
That's actually exactly what's basically being suggested; sitting in combat at all times to keep combats moving such that you can train TM on the critters you hunt. Your TM can and will move at a faster rate than your combats, so, this means training TM less than someone who sits in class all day (and then suffers a wider TM/combat gap).
>When you train the way I do, the spread never happens. My TM > Arcana and will most likely stay that way. Unless I stop hunting altogether and enchant for a year or so.
And the training decision is entirely ours to make. My magics and other survivals were focused on, while combats ignored, because I was interested in circling faster. I was able to circle faster than you are/will be. It has nothing to do with enchanting, it has everything to do with simply ignoring combats in favor of magics, mech, and survivals. If you want to do the opposite, then cool; it's easy enough to keep magics moving in combat while you parry/block/evade, but you won't be able to then also train mech, and eventually you'll have to slow your TM rate (compared to, say, always being in class).

Anyway, this conversation always just boils down to 'train however you want'.

>> Yes, I get it, if you/I want to alleviate the TM/combat gap, stop sitting in classes. Or, understand that I answered the question based on the best way to maximize TM ranks/time for characters who have a large TM/combat gap.

Yes, because if it doesn't work the first time, keep doing it! And if it ends up making your character much more difficult to train: hell, just keep goin! I'm sure it'll get better!

>> I know. However, this argument is exactly in line with chiding an Empath for not being able to train Empathy via manipulating critters. Because Empathy outpacing an Empaths combat potential is TOTALLY indicative of an Empath that has trained 'wrong'.

What isn't clicking here? TARGET is a combat skill. EMPATHY is not - but it can be trained in either because that's how it's coded and it makes sense given the nature of how the ability functions. These are 2 completely different classifications.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Target for blowing people up - and people have been railing AGAINST the idea that you're proposing here FOR AGES - ala prep es 8;harn 11;cast; making characters into ARCANE DOOMBRINGERS.

All I hear from you is 'YAY MY CHARACTER IS A CELEBRATED GLASS CANNON' leading to 'QQ WHY IS MY CHARACTER A GLASS CANNON?' If you don't like training combats, you should give up on the idea of training Target - because they are two sides of the same coin. It's not like you're required to train it anyways - MM's != Target req.

---

IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

>> I'm fairly certain you're the only one celebrating my character right now.

???

>> People have been railing against the idea of TM being offered in classes? Or that training PM somehow makes you a cap locked power house? Because I'm fairly certain that a number of spells in game are specifically non-TM based for a reason.

You used Empathy as a specific example of how you think Target should work - did I get that right? Being able to learn it outside of combat without having it taught, and in combat as well.

... Are you trolling? Why did you bring it up in response to a training-related question if you didn't mean it that way? And why are you so fixated on the idea that they absolutely have to be equal-rank? It's not like you have a TM requirement as a MM anyways - and it's the same across the boards for every other guild. When I was at 410 Evasion, I had 450 Parry. Now @ 1114 Parry, my Evasion is 1019. Equal time put into them with less-than-equal payoff. Oh, and grass is green(unless it's painted).

Here it is: No one is going to have to purposely neglect magic for to train combats, unless they've already put a godawful amount of time into making them impossible to train together. By listening to TM classes all day long. For those people, tough luck. You get what you put into it. You chose to train lopsided, you reap what you sow. Just like the people who never bothered to train Shield, and the Empaths who never trained TM.

>> This is relevant why? Are you suggesting that one can/should only learn a skill via the activity that trains it? That's a cool position.
>> What about Rangers/Paladins keeping TM on par with their combats? What about Warmies/Clerics keeping skinning/evasion on par with their TM?

That's not how it works. There's a natural distance the skillsets want to maintain from each other assuming you put the same amount of time into each. This is where you're totally wrong. You don't spend the same amount of time on each of them. You spend 2x+ the amount of time on magic as combats, and then whine that you can't train them together. Boo-hoo you.

>> Are you going to suggest that Rangers/Paladins should never listen to combat classes to prevent the TM gap from falling to far (in the opposite direction this time), or that Warmies/Clerics should never let TM get ahead of skinning/evasion so they can always train those skills in the critters that they train TM on?

Managing your character's skills is part of playing your character. Water is wet.

Read my breakdown above on how your hypothetical situation is not 'systematic discrimination against MU's', but is actually a result of your terrible training practices.

I've answered this question more than once now, but I finally figured out how to answer it the way you want me to. Yes, there's actually light at the end of this dark tunnel of regret - you can just listen to defense classes until they've caught up to your magic skills! No effort required! No boring combats to sit through, you can RP to your heart's content while you braid your way to victory! Beastmoding the guild like a true champ! And best of all, you'll be fixing your character the same way you broke it!

Yay!

---

IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

EDIT: I actually have no idea what the training range is for Empathy in combat. For all I know, an Empath with 400 Empathy manipulating four arbelogs might move Empathy (I doubt it, but who knows). That's not really the point. The point is it's easy and not at all unreasonable for an Empath to have strikingly higher Empathy than combats, just like it's easy and not at all unreasonable for a Ranger/Paladin to have strikingly higher combats than TM. This doesn't equal a failure to train your character, it equals a training choice made.

Mostly random side note at this point, but all the (old) paladins I personally know have worked incredibly hard to catch TM up to combats to make training it efficient. I don't personally know any newer ones who neglected it out of the gate.

That said, when I started seriously training TM I freely admit I was dealing with a 200ish (much less than some) or 300ish rank gap between TM and combats. I absolutely listened to classes to get it to a point where it was trainable in combat without going too far back down the critter ladder. But that's a situation Paladins and Rangers couldn't really avoid if they wanted to catch it up.

I think the issue throughout most of this thread is that 'listen to classes' isn't really a viable answer to question asked. Is it a way to train TM? Sure it is. Is it the best way? It's highly inefficient at best, so I don't think it really fits in to that category.

The higher level critters teach in MUCH larger ranges than the lower, making it even more feasible to train TM with combat even if there's a gap, as long as it's not an outrageous gap.

~Katt

---

A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!