Number 1 seems perfectly sensible, thanks.
The second one sort of bothers me a little, but not enough to argue against it. I do have a lore consistency concern to raise, though. Does it refrain from awarding Empathy experience against constructs, since there necessarily can't be any Empathy involved on any level there? Alternatively, if it does function in a manner that somehow involves tapping into one's Empathic ability, then it should really not work against constructs at all.
Can we call this a wrap for a while on catering to those Empaths who would embrace Shock and forbidden practices, though, please? It is still supposed to be the "gimped alternative" optional approach to the guild, and the mainline Empathy-focused path is in far too desperate need of attention to keep going in this direction.
Thanks,
-Biomancer Karthor
LAMBL
MIG3
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/25/2019 03:53 PM CDT
In regards to http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Empaths/Game%20Master%20and%20Official%20Announcements/view/315 --- Empath IZ giving empathy now.
I just tested... Using IZ 30 in a super swarmy room, touching ~ every 3 seconds.. I couldn't get Empathy past 12.
Also, the messaging "Remember the Icutu Zaharenela spell that is making your touch deadly!" needs to be fixed. I was getting it 7 out of 8 attempts to touch the critter at times.
Note that both my Empathy and TM skills are well within the posted skill range on epedia.
-Boobear
I just tested... Using IZ 30 in a super swarmy room, touching ~ every 3 seconds.. I couldn't get Empathy past 12.
Also, the messaging "Remember the Icutu Zaharenela spell that is making your touch deadly!" needs to be fixed. I was getting it 7 out of 8 attempts to touch the critter at times.
Note that both my Empathy and TM skills are well within the posted skill range on epedia.
-Boobear
VIEW
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/25/2019 03:54 PM CDT
>>Can we call this a wrap for a while on catering to those Empaths who would embrace Shock and forbidden practices, though, please? It is still supposed to be the "gimped alternative" optional approach to the guild, and the mainline Empathy-focused path is in far too desperate need of attention to keep going in this direction.
While true there should be more work done to make empathy less of a hassle to learn outside of combat I actually want more forbidden practices stuff. More stealing secrets from the leaders. Bring more of the creepy that is Empaths to the forefront. I want me some ascension!
SHIFT3
LAMBL
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/25/2019 04:13 PM CDT
<<I actually want more forbidden practices stuff>>
To me, there's already too much. We need stuff we're actually supposed to use; stuff can be both awesome and perfectly acceptable. Give me a "shining champion of Life performing miraculous wonders and bringing ruin upon Life's enemies" theme over the darker creepy stuff any day.
Thanks,
-Biomancer Karthor
To me, there's already too much. We need stuff we're actually supposed to use; stuff can be both awesome and perfectly acceptable. Give me a "shining champion of Life performing miraculous wonders and bringing ruin upon Life's enemies" theme over the darker creepy stuff any day.
Thanks,
-Biomancer Karthor
MIG3
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/25/2019 04:18 PM CDT
UPDATE
40 Failed Touch attempts in a row due to that message.
40 Failed Touch attempts in a row due to that message.
SHIFT3
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/25/2019 04:21 PM CDT
> I actually want more forbidden practices stuff. More stealing secrets from the leaders.
And this, definitely this. There's a lot you could do in this vein.
- More weaponization of the transference link (perceive area - Heavy TM AOE?)
- Temporary shifts to reduce or eliminate SO. ( IIRC, there's a book about the first empaths doing this somewhere)
- Malicious shifts.
- Enhancements to lethargy or manipulate (self harm)
- Creating a disease which could periodically jump from mob to mob.
Nothing in the necro/death realm, but more manipulation of life.
> It is still supposed to be the "gimped alternative" optional approach to the guild
But why? Who is helped by having a gimped alternative that better fits a player's preference or a character's back story? Why not make them equally viable. Going the shocked route already makes it so you can't heal other PCs (including your own alts) and removes a large swath of healing spells from your repertoire. That should be the penalty for the empaths who don't want their characters to be heal bots or guild lizards.
BRHODES
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/25/2019 05:49 PM CDT
This is just such a great QOL change for Empaths. Thank you!
DR-GREJUVA
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/25/2019 06:28 PM CDT
>>Alternatively, if it does function in a manner that somehow involves tapping into one's Empathic ability, then it should really not work against constructs at all.
We agree. IZ will no longer work against constructs.
>>It is still supposed to be the "gimped alternative" optional approach to the guild
We no longer consider Shock (and Redemption) just a gimped alternative. It should certainly be the less common path, but we'd like to support reasonably playable alternate styles for more guilds.
>>Give me a "shining champion of Life performing miraculous wonders and bringing ruin upon Life's enemies" theme over the darker creepy stuff any day.
Fair. More to come!
>>I couldn't get Empathy past 12.
This is a bug -- when your TM is locked, the spell doesn't teach any Empathy. Working on a solution.
>>Also, the messaging "Remember the Icutu Zaharenela spell that is making your touch deadly!" needs to be fixed.
We already spoke in game, but let me remind anyone else who may be having trouble with the syntax: TOUCH used by this spell is similar to a melee combat verb in many respects. If you specify a target, it must be within reach. If you don't specify a target, the verb will attempt to automatically advance and charge on a creature in the room. That said, the error messages should be a little clearer now.
GM Grejuva
We agree. IZ will no longer work against constructs.
>>It is still supposed to be the "gimped alternative" optional approach to the guild
We no longer consider Shock (and Redemption) just a gimped alternative. It should certainly be the less common path, but we'd like to support reasonably playable alternate styles for more guilds.
>>Give me a "shining champion of Life performing miraculous wonders and bringing ruin upon Life's enemies" theme over the darker creepy stuff any day.
Fair. More to come!
>>I couldn't get Empathy past 12.
This is a bug -- when your TM is locked, the spell doesn't teach any Empathy. Working on a solution.
>>Also, the messaging "Remember the Icutu Zaharenela spell that is making your touch deadly!" needs to be fixed.
We already spoke in game, but let me remind anyone else who may be having trouble with the syntax: TOUCH used by this spell is similar to a melee combat verb in many respects. If you specify a target, it must be within reach. If you don't specify a target, the verb will attempt to automatically advance and charge on a creature in the room. That said, the error messages should be a little clearer now.
GM Grejuva
ALLMINE
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/25/2019 06:37 PM CDT
Really can't find myself getting fully behind this IZ spell giving empathy experience. It's a spell forbidden by most of guild lore for empaths to really learn. Now all of a sudden it's not just super okay to know it and use it but we can use it to advance in the guild and learn a gracious amount of a skill that has for years meant we "do no harm".
Part of me feels like there is lack of evidence for it to be used this way and just changing it now is a lazy way to get around the lore behind it.
~~If you can't live without me why aren't you dead yet?~~
Part of me feels like there is lack of evidence for it to be used this way and just changing it now is a lazy way to get around the lore behind it.
~~If you can't live without me why aren't you dead yet?~~
VIEW
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/25/2019 06:47 PM CDT
>>Give me a "shining champion of Life performing miraculous wonders and bringing ruin upon Life's enemies" theme over the darker creepy stuff any day.
I should probably point out that I find the base line everyday healing of others that Empaths do very creepy, the advanced healing (Unity) I find ultra creepy. Just thought I'd point that out since it colors a lot of what I feel Empaths are. Creepy and weird is the baseline and the primary purpose of the Guild structure is to make them seem less creepy then they really are to the locals.
I should probably point out that I find the base line everyday healing of others that Empaths do very creepy, the advanced healing (Unity) I find ultra creepy. Just thought I'd point that out since it colors a lot of what I feel Empaths are. Creepy and weird is the baseline and the primary purpose of the Guild structure is to make them seem less creepy then they really are to the locals.
ILLIENA
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/25/2019 11:33 PM CDT
> 1) Debilitation spells no longer cause Shock by default. Damaging spells and spells whose messaging involves pain or trauma will be set to cause Shock on a case-by-case basis. At this time, the only non-signature and non-damaging spells that cause Shock are Deadfall and Ice Patch.
Heighten Pain?
Heighten Pain?
LCAMP2
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/26/2019 12:49 AM CDT
<<Heighten Pain?
The spell doesn't do anything on its own until something else causes damage to the target. While the messaging does say it heightens the pain of the target, I can see a case for it not qualifying as shock causing since it doesn't actually cause that pain. I can also see a case being made the other way too, however. Comparing it to Flouresce, it is identical in effect except the messaging which is more indirect in the case of Flouresce. HP makes the target experience more pain no matter whether someone tries to cause extra damage or not, whereas Flouresce puts the onus of causing the extra damage on the damager.
Regardless, I think because it's a necro spell that it comes with other hurdles to an empath anyway? Elanthipedia seems to think so at any rate.
The spell doesn't do anything on its own until something else causes damage to the target. While the messaging does say it heightens the pain of the target, I can see a case for it not qualifying as shock causing since it doesn't actually cause that pain. I can also see a case being made the other way too, however. Comparing it to Flouresce, it is identical in effect except the messaging which is more indirect in the case of Flouresce. HP makes the target experience more pain no matter whether someone tries to cause extra damage or not, whereas Flouresce puts the onus of causing the extra damage on the damager.
Regardless, I think because it's a necro spell that it comes with other hurdles to an empath anyway? Elanthipedia seems to think so at any rate.
SQUIRRELYB
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/26/2019 05:50 AM CDT
>Really can't find myself getting fully behind this IZ spell giving empathy experience. It's a spell forbidden by most of guild lore for empaths to really learn. Now all of a sudden it's not just super okay to know it and use it but we can use it to advance in the guild and learn a gracious amount of a skill that has for years meant we "do no harm".
While Thanatology and Empathy embody different practices and different body of lores, the supernatural talent behind it -- the Transference Link -- is the same thing.
If you use an Empathy buff on a Necromancer, his Thanatological power increases. If an Empath somehow gets a Thanatology buff without shocking herself, it boosts her Empathy. They both draw from the same well.
-Armifer
IZ leverages the same transference link that Empaths would use to heal, so why shouldn't it grant Empathy experience? This isn't changing the lore. The GUILD wants you to do no harm, sure, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.
While Thanatology and Empathy embody different practices and different body of lores, the supernatural talent behind it -- the Transference Link -- is the same thing.
If you use an Empathy buff on a Necromancer, his Thanatological power increases. If an Empath somehow gets a Thanatology buff without shocking herself, it boosts her Empathy. They both draw from the same well.
-Armifer
IZ leverages the same transference link that Empaths would use to heal, so why shouldn't it grant Empathy experience? This isn't changing the lore. The GUILD wants you to do no harm, sure, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.
LAMBL
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/26/2019 07:46 AM CDT
<<3) All necromancy spells now cause Shock in all situations. This overrides #1 in the previous post.>>
I like this, but could you perhaps delve into the Lore behind it a little bit by chance? It isn't clear to me why this would be the case given that Shock is a reflexive response to causing direct harm. The only thing I can think of would be that it's a very specific safety measure put in place by whatever the First Empaths did to limit the Empathy of future generations. What makes it apply only to actual Necromancy and not all cross-casting? I thought that as far as the universe is concerned, they're physically the same thing when one of the mana types involved in cross-casting is Life (side note: if that's correct then it might be appropriate if the Sorcery skill was renamed to Necromancy for Empaths and Rangers since it necessarily is for them).
Thanks,
-Biomancer Karthor
I like this, but could you perhaps delve into the Lore behind it a little bit by chance? It isn't clear to me why this would be the case given that Shock is a reflexive response to causing direct harm. The only thing I can think of would be that it's a very specific safety measure put in place by whatever the First Empaths did to limit the Empathy of future generations. What makes it apply only to actual Necromancy and not all cross-casting? I thought that as far as the universe is concerned, they're physically the same thing when one of the mana types involved in cross-casting is Life (side note: if that's correct then it might be appropriate if the Sorcery skill was renamed to Necromancy for Empaths and Rangers since it necessarily is for them).
Thanks,
-Biomancer Karthor
ZERODIVIDES
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/26/2019 10:04 AM CDT
Thank you for the update to debilitation spells! That's an elegant solution, I'm definitely a fan.
The change to IZ took me a bit by surprise but upon reflection I think it's pretty cool. The only qualm I have is gating this Empath playstyle behind a spell, and a rare, scroll-only spell at that. Not that I think full shock should be a default, desirable state. I'd just rather see Empathy and Empathy-teaching things mostly standing on their own, because Empathy isn't magical, _per se_ but a supernatural ability that does not rely on magic / mana to work. Something analagous to the Necromancer rituals would be best, I think, but then you have to build out some sort of infrastructure for Empaths to learn those rituals, which is definitely a much bigger undertaking than tweaking an existing spell. So I get that, as far as it goes, I just hope that Empathy continues to, mostly, stand alone. I guess, to my mind, I can see there being spells that require knowledge of Empathy to work, but Empathic feats that require magic to work seem a little backwards.
Still, really cool and I'm stoked to see Empath dev!
Regarding item three, I share Karthor's confusion as to why spells that do not involve the Necromancer confound would cause shock. Does this apply to non-debil spells as well? If so, that seems problematic since, as Karthor mentioned, I understood most of these to be sorceries and Empaths are peculiarly well positioned to be quite excellent sorcerers. I get why any Necromancer debil spells would default to shockiness, but if all Necromancer spells will cause shock when cast (even against constructs) I think that requires some explanation.
Again, it's really neat to see stuff happening for Empaths. I'm another of those who really enjoys the darker side of Empathy so I am absolutely following these changes with interest.
Thank you!
Qihhth
The change to IZ took me a bit by surprise but upon reflection I think it's pretty cool. The only qualm I have is gating this Empath playstyle behind a spell, and a rare, scroll-only spell at that. Not that I think full shock should be a default, desirable state. I'd just rather see Empathy and Empathy-teaching things mostly standing on their own, because Empathy isn't magical, _per se_ but a supernatural ability that does not rely on magic / mana to work. Something analagous to the Necromancer rituals would be best, I think, but then you have to build out some sort of infrastructure for Empaths to learn those rituals, which is definitely a much bigger undertaking than tweaking an existing spell. So I get that, as far as it goes, I just hope that Empathy continues to, mostly, stand alone. I guess, to my mind, I can see there being spells that require knowledge of Empathy to work, but Empathic feats that require magic to work seem a little backwards.
Still, really cool and I'm stoked to see Empath dev!
Regarding item three, I share Karthor's confusion as to why spells that do not involve the Necromancer confound would cause shock. Does this apply to non-debil spells as well? If so, that seems problematic since, as Karthor mentioned, I understood most of these to be sorceries and Empaths are peculiarly well positioned to be quite excellent sorcerers. I get why any Necromancer debil spells would default to shockiness, but if all Necromancer spells will cause shock when cast (even against constructs) I think that requires some explanation.
Again, it's really neat to see stuff happening for Empaths. I'm another of those who really enjoys the darker side of Empathy so I am absolutely following these changes with interest.
Thank you!
Qihhth
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/26/2019 11:43 AM CDT
It was a game-balance consideration I requested as part of IZ's change and as part of a broader idea of reeling back sorcery a bit in a few different ways. Sorcery in its current incarnation is problematic in a few ways, and it's exacerbated in Empaths by the guild suite trivializing most of its disadvantages.
Honestly, if it isn't this change today, it's going to be another stab at it tomorrow. As far as general themes go it feels suitable without actually crippling Empath options or abilities in the process.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
Honestly, if it isn't this change today, it's going to be another stab at it tomorrow. As far as general themes go it feels suitable without actually crippling Empath options or abilities in the process.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
LAMBL
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/26/2019 12:32 PM CDT
<<a broader idea of reeling back sorcery a bit in a few different ways>>
Glad to hear it, it's always bothered me how widely embraced Sorcery ended up being. Bonus points if you can manage to work in some actual benefits to foregoing Sorcery (as expressed by having low ranks) rather than just penalties for engaging in it.
Thanks,
-Biomancer Karthor
Glad to hear it, it's always bothered me how widely embraced Sorcery ended up being. Bonus points if you can manage to work in some actual benefits to foregoing Sorcery (as expressed by having low ranks) rather than just penalties for engaging in it.
Thanks,
-Biomancer Karthor
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/26/2019 12:43 PM CDT
>>Bonus points if you can manage to work in some actual benefits to foregoing Sorcery (as expressed by having low ranks) rather than just penalties for engaging in it.
Yup. Not exactly as expressed in lower ranks, but expressed in "choosing explicitly to not do Sorcery should also have an intrinsic benefit too."
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
Yup. Not exactly as expressed in lower ranks, but expressed in "choosing explicitly to not do Sorcery should also have an intrinsic benefit too."
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
ZERODIVIDES
Re: Empath Shock-Related Updates
05/31/2019 09:36 AM CDT
>>It was a game-balance consideration I requested as part of IZ's change and as part of a broader idea of reeling back sorcery a bit in a few different ways
I get it, but I guess I was hoping for some sweet, sweet lore.
Also, I hope smacking Empaths with shock isn't going to be the go-to for Empaths doing things we think are bad, but are not actually, lore-wise, shock-worthy. I'm on board with sorcery having consequences, absolutely, and get why this change happened now, but if sorcery consequences are going to me more widespread I hope "bad empath, no empathy" is not going to be the new norm.
Qihhth
I get it, but I guess I was hoping for some sweet, sweet lore.
Also, I hope smacking Empaths with shock isn't going to be the go-to for Empaths doing things we think are bad, but are not actually, lore-wise, shock-worthy. I'm on board with sorcery having consequences, absolutely, and get why this change happened now, but if sorcery consequences are going to me more widespread I hope "bad empath, no empathy" is not going to be the new norm.
Qihhth
