So...after spending the last few hours trying to digest what these new requirements mean, I've come to the conclustion that not a lot of consideration was given while coming up with these. Did no one QA these?
Let me start off by saying that I AM NOT ASKING FOR EASIER. Please keep that in mind while reading this. I AM NOT ASKING FOR EASIER.
Under the old system, I had 13 survivals to choose from and needed 6 in order to circle. From those 13, I could choose Climbing, First Aid, Foraging, Swimming and Perception, leaving only one skill that I either had learn in a class or work in combat. It wasn't a perfect world, but it was doable. Thanks to changes in teaching, I could even spend some time teaching my own class in Hiding or something and make the ranks that I needed.
Then comes the new experience system. Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, we're down to 4 non-combat oriented survivals: Athletics, Perception, First Aid and Outdoorsmanship. I do not consider Skinning and Locksmithing to be non-combat oriented since you have to go get the skins and the boxes in order to train them and those things require combat. So, from what I can see at a glance, it looks like I will need the same total ranks in survival to reach 150, but I now have to train 33% of those ranks by teaching or by being forced into combat. This somehow doesn't feel like it's in alignment with the... "yummy" ...sandwhich we've been fed about why all of these changes are being made. And remember...I AM NOT ASKING FOR EASIER.
I think somewhere along the way we have lost track of what empaths were supposed to be. We're a lore primary guild. We sit around and we teach and braid grass (or used to) and we heal people. Some of us, myself included, get bored and head out into the field for entertainment. Many others choose NOT to run the risk of hunting...especially at a young age. Why should they be forced to try to hunt when many of their TDP's are being used to bolster discipline or stamina or other stats that are useful to their PRIMARY MISSION IN LIFE.
Now, let's revisit that whole NOT ASKING FOR EASIER thing. I propose that if you're going to force empaths into combat that you add some sort of defensive skills to our list of circle reqs. Give me a shield and a parry requirement to go with what will boil down to a soft evasion requirement by the time all is said and done. I think it would be VERY RP-worthy to require an empath to be able to defend him/herself in the event of an invasion. If that won't be considered, then eliminate these "asinine" combat oriented survivals. Asinine...I believe that was the term used to describe some of a barbarians survival reqs that were eliminated in the latest version of circle reqs.
FLOYDFAN73
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Confused about new circle reqs...
03/16/2012 10:35 AM CDT
>>So...after spending the last few hours trying to digest what these new requirements mean, I've come to the conclustion that not a lot of consideration was given while coming up with these. Did no one QA these?
lol
>>Survivals
You need 5 survivals in addition to First Aid. The Survivals you'll have available to you are:
Evasion - Combat
Athletics - Non-Combat
Perception - Non-Combat
Stealth - Can be either
Locksmithing - Can be either
Outdoorsmanship - Non-Combat
Skinning - Can be either
So out of those, if you want to avoid combat at all costs, you're required to figure out a way to learn skinning, locksmithing, or stealth (At truly minimal ranks per circle, for the lowest ones).
Your fourth and fifth survival reqs are incredibly easy - Until 70th circle you only need one rank per circle.
For your first 10 circles, this is 2/7 ranks per circle you need to earn in 'Questionable Combat'.
For the 11-30, it's 2/10.
For 31-70, it's 2/11.
For 71-100, its 4/16.
for 101-150, it's 4/19.
Let me put it another way. By 70th circle, you will need to have amassed a 70 ranks in these two skills. This is not a terrible burden. You can get that much stealth stalking around town (especially with hiding and stalking being combined and thus both training the same skill). Skinning is learnable by scrapping tipped skins, and locksmithing is learnable by tipped boxes. A sociable empath could also easily chat up a customer and offer healing in exchange for a bag of boxes or a bundle of skins.
Are these methods something you can do without much effort? Not especially. I didn't design the empath (or any) reqs around push-button training. If you want to never go into combat as an empath, you still have the option. You can also go into combat and save yourself the trouble, but it's totally up to you.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
lol
>>Survivals
You need 5 survivals in addition to First Aid. The Survivals you'll have available to you are:
Evasion - Combat
Athletics - Non-Combat
Perception - Non-Combat
Stealth - Can be either
Locksmithing - Can be either
Outdoorsmanship - Non-Combat
Skinning - Can be either
So out of those, if you want to avoid combat at all costs, you're required to figure out a way to learn skinning, locksmithing, or stealth (At truly minimal ranks per circle, for the lowest ones).
Your fourth and fifth survival reqs are incredibly easy - Until 70th circle you only need one rank per circle.
For your first 10 circles, this is 2/7 ranks per circle you need to earn in 'Questionable Combat'.
For the 11-30, it's 2/10.
For 31-70, it's 2/11.
For 71-100, its 4/16.
for 101-150, it's 4/19.
Let me put it another way. By 70th circle, you will need to have amassed a 70 ranks in these two skills. This is not a terrible burden. You can get that much stealth stalking around town (especially with hiding and stalking being combined and thus both training the same skill). Skinning is learnable by scrapping tipped skins, and locksmithing is learnable by tipped boxes. A sociable empath could also easily chat up a customer and offer healing in exchange for a bag of boxes or a bundle of skins.
Are these methods something you can do without much effort? Not especially. I didn't design the empath (or any) reqs around push-button training. If you want to never go into combat as an empath, you still have the option. You can also go into combat and save yourself the trouble, but it's totally up to you.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
FLOYDFAN73
Re: Confused about new circle reqs...
03/16/2012 01:06 PM CDT
>> This is not a terrible burden. You can get that much stealth stalking around town (especially with hiding and stalking being combined and thus both training the same skill). Skinning is learnable by scrapping tipped skins, and locksmithing is learnable by tipped boxes. A sociable empath could also easily chat up a customer and offer healing in exchange for a bag of boxes or a bundle of skins.
I tried that route when I first started playing. It has taken me just shy of 6000 boxes to attain 250 ranks of disarm and lockpicking. Those were boxes that I farmed myself at an appropriate level to teach me picking and disarm. And no, the 6000 is not an exaggeration. I created a script using a global variable to keep a permanent count of the boxes opened on my character... :)
>> Are these methods something you can do without much effort? Not especially. I didn't design the empath (or any) reqs around push-button training. If you want to never go into combat as an empath, you still have the option. You can also go into combat and save yourself the trouble, but it's totally up to you.
I'm not asking for push button training. I thought I had made that clear in my original post... :) What I am asking is that someone realize there are numerous problems with empath combat. The first major issue is the lack of any decent progression of constructs. I realize that killing isn't mandatory...but with the hints at combat 3.0, I think that is about to change. My understanding is that dancing is no longer going to be a viable option for training. This ties into the second problem where my avenger isn't worth a DAMN. Again...there are hints that he might get better in the future, but the way he works now, he's just not a viable option for crowd control. I know that all of these issues I mention are better discussed in a different topic...I simply bring them up to illustrate just how bad empath combat can be.
I appreciate you doing some calculations. Let me toss out a few numbers as well. Let us assume that I am a circle 75 empath and that my survivals cross over appropriately. Since my swimming was combined with climbing, I got a grandfathered some evasion and have "caught up". If I want to try to enter combat now, what are my options? I have about 10 total ranks of armor, split up between shields and plate. I have 0 ranks of parry because I never stanced parry when I tried to get that trivial 10 ranks of Evasion that was required of me when I joined the guild. But I now have 80 ranks of evasion. What do you propose I hunt? This is why I suggested an additional requirement of both shield and parry, using the RP premise of an empath should be able to defend him or herself while trying to triage during an invasion. While I don't need to be on the front lines, it's not unheard of for stray projectiles to wind up in strange places... :) Using the grandfathering of skills, I would get grandfathered some VERY BASIC defenses to augment my evasion which would allow me to continue training. As it stands right now, I would have to back train 50-60 ranks in order to adequately defend myself. My understanding was that we're being handed free ranks to AVOID back training. Or am I confused?
Once again...just for the record...I AM NOT ADVOCATING MAKING IT EASIER. I'm simply trying to make it a viable option for a mid-level empath to continue training instead of just rerolling to something that can actually handle himself intelligently in combat. I enjoy playing my empath and hope that maybe someday we can see some new content. If my guildmates abandon this sinking ship, what new content will there be? A merger with clerics?
FYI, I'm not whining for myself.
Shield Usage: 468 07% mind lock (34/34) Leather Armor: 429 07% very rapt (31/34)
Light Chain: 459 22% mind lock (34/34) Heavy Chain: 447 66% mind lock (34/34)
Light Plate: 426 57% very rapt (31/34) Heavy Plate: 428 45% nearly locked (33/34)
Cloth Armor: 425 82% very riveted (29/34) Bone Armor: 427 86% enthralled (32/34)
I think I will be okay after the skill shift. I just remember the headaches I went through trying to make combat work for me in a system that allowed dancing for hours on end with the same critters.
I tried that route when I first started playing. It has taken me just shy of 6000 boxes to attain 250 ranks of disarm and lockpicking. Those were boxes that I farmed myself at an appropriate level to teach me picking and disarm. And no, the 6000 is not an exaggeration. I created a script using a global variable to keep a permanent count of the boxes opened on my character... :)
>> Are these methods something you can do without much effort? Not especially. I didn't design the empath (or any) reqs around push-button training. If you want to never go into combat as an empath, you still have the option. You can also go into combat and save yourself the trouble, but it's totally up to you.
I'm not asking for push button training. I thought I had made that clear in my original post... :) What I am asking is that someone realize there are numerous problems with empath combat. The first major issue is the lack of any decent progression of constructs. I realize that killing isn't mandatory...but with the hints at combat 3.0, I think that is about to change. My understanding is that dancing is no longer going to be a viable option for training. This ties into the second problem where my avenger isn't worth a DAMN. Again...there are hints that he might get better in the future, but the way he works now, he's just not a viable option for crowd control. I know that all of these issues I mention are better discussed in a different topic...I simply bring them up to illustrate just how bad empath combat can be.
I appreciate you doing some calculations. Let me toss out a few numbers as well. Let us assume that I am a circle 75 empath and that my survivals cross over appropriately. Since my swimming was combined with climbing, I got a grandfathered some evasion and have "caught up". If I want to try to enter combat now, what are my options? I have about 10 total ranks of armor, split up between shields and plate. I have 0 ranks of parry because I never stanced parry when I tried to get that trivial 10 ranks of Evasion that was required of me when I joined the guild. But I now have 80 ranks of evasion. What do you propose I hunt? This is why I suggested an additional requirement of both shield and parry, using the RP premise of an empath should be able to defend him or herself while trying to triage during an invasion. While I don't need to be on the front lines, it's not unheard of for stray projectiles to wind up in strange places... :) Using the grandfathering of skills, I would get grandfathered some VERY BASIC defenses to augment my evasion which would allow me to continue training. As it stands right now, I would have to back train 50-60 ranks in order to adequately defend myself. My understanding was that we're being handed free ranks to AVOID back training. Or am I confused?
Once again...just for the record...I AM NOT ADVOCATING MAKING IT EASIER. I'm simply trying to make it a viable option for a mid-level empath to continue training instead of just rerolling to something that can actually handle himself intelligently in combat. I enjoy playing my empath and hope that maybe someday we can see some new content. If my guildmates abandon this sinking ship, what new content will there be? A merger with clerics?
FYI, I'm not whining for myself.
Shield Usage: 468 07% mind lock (34/34) Leather Armor: 429 07% very rapt (31/34)
Light Chain: 459 22% mind lock (34/34) Heavy Chain: 447 66% mind lock (34/34)
Light Plate: 426 57% very rapt (31/34) Heavy Plate: 428 45% nearly locked (33/34)
Cloth Armor: 425 82% very riveted (29/34) Bone Armor: 427 86% enthralled (32/34)
I think I will be okay after the skill shift. I just remember the headaches I went through trying to make combat work for me in a system that allowed dancing for hours on end with the same critters.
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Confused about new circle reqs...
03/16/2012 01:18 PM CDT
>>It has taken me just shy of 6000 boxes to attain 250 ranks of disarm and lockpicking. Those were boxes that I farmed myself at an appropriate level to teach me picking and disarm. And no, the 6000 is not an exaggeration.
Which is 30 ranks more than you even need in a fourth or fifth survival to hit 150th. That's approximately a bit less than 40 boxes per circle, and that's before you consider that lockpicking and disarming traps with both train locksmithing.
>>If my guildmates abandon this sinking ship
Dude. Chill.
>>I'm not whining for myself.
I really don't know who you're whining for. You're speculating on a whole bunch of things that are based on things that have been stated to change significantly when X3 comes out.
I think you're making a fuss about things that are going to smooth out naturally as time goes on. Yes, the transition into X3 will be a little painful for some, and not at all painful for others. It'll all come out pretty even in the end though.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Which is 30 ranks more than you even need in a fourth or fifth survival to hit 150th. That's approximately a bit less than 40 boxes per circle, and that's before you consider that lockpicking and disarming traps with both train locksmithing.
>>If my guildmates abandon this sinking ship
Dude. Chill.
>>I'm not whining for myself.
I really don't know who you're whining for. You're speculating on a whole bunch of things that are based on things that have been stated to change significantly when X3 comes out.
I think you're making a fuss about things that are going to smooth out naturally as time goes on. Yes, the transition into X3 will be a little painful for some, and not at all painful for others. It'll all come out pretty even in the end though.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
SCHULTZS3
Re: Confused about new circle reqs...
03/16/2012 03:11 PM CDT
This is a little brusque, but...
To quote from the EXP system folder:
>because they no longer have a goal to train X in this skill and Y in that skill, so they train how they see fit to improve their character. Interestingly enough, Thats how I've trained my character since level 1. Result, Not a single circle req change has affected me with the exception of Primary Weapon, because thats the only thing thats held me back. Training Lore to ridiculous ranks - Not necessarily because I "like lore" but because I wanted the Mech Ranks for crafting, the Scholarship for reading those damnable compendiums and Appraisal for getting accurate results. Same goes with my survival (tertiary) ranks - Can't climb or swim worth a damn, admittedly, but foraging got a BIG push for mining, first aid for tending gushers, perception to watch people hide, skinnng so I can make money AT my hunting level, Evasion, etc. I've managed to keep my evasion about even with Multi, and very close to my primary weapon. Parry, I can't help - It just pulls ahead on its own. Its how you train. Throw the circle req's out of the window, and just build a well rounded character. Or, You don't and you cry when things change.
My views on lore still haven't changed, I still view Empathy/Teaching/Scholarship as nothing but a circling block once you've got a couple hundred ranks to be able to heal well. I destroy these circle reqs except Empathy. (on the order of 50% extra ranks for my 74th circle). I will continue to destroy them, except Empathy, come DR 3.0, because I'm only going to make my personal requirements I keep separate even harder past guild reqs. With the potential exception of the magic skills, since that's still up in the air how they get grandfathered.
Now that I'm back to Empath primary, I shall chug along at full speed ahead after years of more-or-less hiatus.
We still need a blood wolf/rock troll/sand sprite level Construct to have a more or less complete Construct combat ladder from 0-700 ranks. Skinning probably an issue as well if you're not Premium to get to gargs (particularly quartz ones), but thankfully there's yet another version of gargoyles to skin (If you're premium).
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
To quote from the EXP system folder:
>because they no longer have a goal to train X in this skill and Y in that skill, so they train how they see fit to improve their character. Interestingly enough, Thats how I've trained my character since level 1. Result, Not a single circle req change has affected me with the exception of Primary Weapon, because thats the only thing thats held me back. Training Lore to ridiculous ranks - Not necessarily because I "like lore" but because I wanted the Mech Ranks for crafting, the Scholarship for reading those damnable compendiums and Appraisal for getting accurate results. Same goes with my survival (tertiary) ranks - Can't climb or swim worth a damn, admittedly, but foraging got a BIG push for mining, first aid for tending gushers, perception to watch people hide, skinnng so I can make money AT my hunting level, Evasion, etc. I've managed to keep my evasion about even with Multi, and very close to my primary weapon. Parry, I can't help - It just pulls ahead on its own. Its how you train. Throw the circle req's out of the window, and just build a well rounded character. Or, You don't and you cry when things change.
My views on lore still haven't changed, I still view Empathy/Teaching/Scholarship as nothing but a circling block once you've got a couple hundred ranks to be able to heal well. I destroy these circle reqs except Empathy. (on the order of 50% extra ranks for my 74th circle). I will continue to destroy them, except Empathy, come DR 3.0, because I'm only going to make my personal requirements I keep separate even harder past guild reqs. With the potential exception of the magic skills, since that's still up in the air how they get grandfathered.
Now that I'm back to Empath primary, I shall chug along at full speed ahead after years of more-or-less hiatus.
We still need a blood wolf/rock troll/sand sprite level Construct to have a more or less complete Construct combat ladder from 0-700 ranks. Skinning probably an issue as well if you're not Premium to get to gargs (particularly quartz ones), but thankfully there's yet another version of gargoyles to skin (If you're premium).
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
