I think it would be -REALLY- useful if Regenerate had an option when cast to leave external bleeders alone (or only heal them to the light/slight) level so that experienced Empaths could still heal yet keep bleeders for learning First Aid. We can of course do this now through using our other spells but I would personally use this option daily. Thoughts?
KAELRX
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use
01/23/2015 12:33 PM CST
I think pet bleeders as a training paradigm is to be avoided.
KAELRX
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use
01/23/2015 12:45 PM CST
Interesting that they train so well then. With the proper spells they're pretty harmless.
DELVER
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use
01/23/2015 12:57 PM CST
>I think pet bleeders as a training paradigm is to be avoided.
What's your thought process behind this?
As a data point I've kept a top level left leg and 2nd from top level abdomen bleeder. I did hunt and heal others during that time and did suffer the hits that created the internal bleeder issue on the abdomen wound, never on the leg wound. It took 8 months for infection to finally set in.
Asbhuan/Plat
What's your thought process behind this?
As a data point I've kept a top level left leg and 2nd from top level abdomen bleeder. I did hunt and heal others during that time and did suffer the hits that created the internal bleeder issue on the abdomen wound, never on the leg wound. It took 8 months for infection to finally set in.
Asbhuan/Plat
ROBERTDH
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use
01/23/2015 01:08 PM CST
>What's your thought processbehind this?
The designers are embarrased by how dumb it looks in the game.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
SHADOW7988
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use
01/23/2015 05:07 PM CST
I understand that training FA with pet bleeders is the way things are.
My other understanding is that is not where FA has been suggested to go.
And sense its been brought up, Churgery, please re-name FA to Churgery and let's get a proposal for what else Churgery can do in game. Pretty please, with text based whip cream and a textual cherry on top, please!?
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
My other understanding is that is not where FA has been suggested to go.
And sense its been brought up, Churgery, please re-name FA to Churgery and let's get a proposal for what else Churgery can do in game. Pretty please, with text based whip cream and a textual cherry on top, please!?
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use
01/23/2015 05:08 PM CST
Few points on it -
1 ) Being a master healer and walking around with a constant bleeding wound is absurd. You can replace 'master healer' with about any guild.
2 ) If a skill requires you train by effectively reducing your capacities, the skill training paradigm is silly. Imagine if the only way to train combats was by using a crappier weapon. As it is, I think PICK BLIND on way tougher boxes is a silly way of training locksmithing.
3 ) I don't like the idea of intentionally nerfing my spells as a means for keeping a training technique going. I.e., I wouldn't want Benediction to 'buff less' to let a critter 'remain a challenge'.
Compendiums exist. I know there isn't a terribly easily accessible or fully comprehensive range on them, but I'd rather just see that fixed, or additional methods or uses of First Aid than the pet bleeder paradigm be perpetuated.
1 ) Being a master healer and walking around with a constant bleeding wound is absurd. You can replace 'master healer' with about any guild.
2 ) If a skill requires you train by effectively reducing your capacities, the skill training paradigm is silly. Imagine if the only way to train combats was by using a crappier weapon. As it is, I think PICK BLIND on way tougher boxes is a silly way of training locksmithing.
3 ) I don't like the idea of intentionally nerfing my spells as a means for keeping a training technique going. I.e., I wouldn't want Benediction to 'buff less' to let a critter 'remain a challenge'.
Compendiums exist. I know there isn't a terribly easily accessible or fully comprehensive range on them, but I'd rather just see that fixed, or additional methods or uses of First Aid than the pet bleeder paradigm be perpetuated.
LAMBL
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use
01/23/2015 05:11 PM CST
<<I know there isn't a terribly easily accessible or fully comprehensive range on them, but I'd rather just see that fixed, or additional methods or uses of First Aid than the pet bleeder paradigm be perpetuated.>>
I'd like to add my emphatic agreement.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
I'd like to add my emphatic agreement.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use
01/23/2015 05:15 PM CST
... and yes, I recognize points 2 and 3 are the same in hindsight. Shutup.
DELVER
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use
01/24/2015 10:44 AM CST
>1 ) Being a master healer and walking around with a constant bleeding wound is absurd. You can replace 'master healer' with about any guild.
Tending bleeders is currently the best means of gaining FA skill for any PC no matter the Guild, except for Necromancers. Anatomy charts don't come close to providing the same level of FA skill gain and the immediately available number and full range of charts in a 24/7 NPC shop is abysmal. That's compounded with the need to have 80-90 ranks in scholarship before you can successfully complete a study on the simplest chart. Then there's the 20 minute timer before re-study. I can tend a wound and research at the same, but I can't study a compendium full of anatomy charts and research at the same time.
A number of skill training methods are absurd but if a player or players find it to be the most effective, efficient way to gain skill experience with the current mechanics then we do it until a better method comes along. That's coupled with the still pervasive mentality of the desire to be able to and have to ML a skill in 2 blinks of the eye.
>2 ) If a skill requires you train by effectively reducing your capacities, the skill training paradigm is silly.
Is this intended to apply to pet bleeders or is it a general observation? As an Empath you should avoid any weapon training, except on constructs (which are just plain silly since why should Empaths hurt anything), and other than the small amount parry grants and keep brawling toggled to the safe default, because if you happen to suffer shock you'll have reduced capacities. You can extend this ridiculous statement I just made even further to other skills if you apply your paradigm logic. In fact why have the new spell because it reduces your capacities as an Empath.
>3 ) I don't like the idea of intentionally nerfing my spells as a means for keeping a training technique going.
I'm at a loss how this pertains to pet bleeders, however, see the response to 2 because of the reduction to spells due to shock. And let's throw in the new spell since it reduces capacities.
Asbhuan
Tending bleeders is currently the best means of gaining FA skill for any PC no matter the Guild, except for Necromancers. Anatomy charts don't come close to providing the same level of FA skill gain and the immediately available number and full range of charts in a 24/7 NPC shop is abysmal. That's compounded with the need to have 80-90 ranks in scholarship before you can successfully complete a study on the simplest chart. Then there's the 20 minute timer before re-study. I can tend a wound and research at the same, but I can't study a compendium full of anatomy charts and research at the same time.
A number of skill training methods are absurd but if a player or players find it to be the most effective, efficient way to gain skill experience with the current mechanics then we do it until a better method comes along. That's coupled with the still pervasive mentality of the desire to be able to and have to ML a skill in 2 blinks of the eye.
>2 ) If a skill requires you train by effectively reducing your capacities, the skill training paradigm is silly.
Is this intended to apply to pet bleeders or is it a general observation? As an Empath you should avoid any weapon training, except on constructs (which are just plain silly since why should Empaths hurt anything), and other than the small amount parry grants and keep brawling toggled to the safe default, because if you happen to suffer shock you'll have reduced capacities. You can extend this ridiculous statement I just made even further to other skills if you apply your paradigm logic. In fact why have the new spell because it reduces your capacities as an Empath.
>3 ) I don't like the idea of intentionally nerfing my spells as a means for keeping a training technique going.
I'm at a loss how this pertains to pet bleeders, however, see the response to 2 because of the reduction to spells due to shock. And let's throw in the new spell since it reduces capacities.
Asbhuan
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use
01/24/2015 11:07 AM CST
>Tending bleeders is currently the best means of gaining FA skill for any PC no matter the Guild... [stuff about compendiums]
Yes, this is a Bad Thing. You've just repeated exactly what I'm pointing out the problem is. You also did not address my point about us being healers - Paladins have also complained that the best way to train their skill set was to wear crappier armors, though, imagine how much more vocal they would be if worse armors trained better than superior armor, i.e., copper plate trained better than damite. The point is that as a healer, we look stupid covered in pet wounds, just like a barbarian would look stupid with a tin knife, or a paladin with a copper plate, or a moon mage with a rusty telescope, etc. It's an RP observation, as much as a mechanical one.
>Is this intended to apply to pet bleeders or is it a general observation? As an Empath you should avoid any weapon training, except on constructs (which are just plain silly since why should Empaths hurt anything), and other than the small amount parry grants and keep brawling toggled to the safe default, because if you happen to suffer shock you'll have reduced capacities. You can extend this ridiculous statement I just made even further to other skills if you apply your paradigm logic. In fact why have the new spell because it reduces your capacities as an Empath.
Well, for starters, empaths can train however, but mine spends about 80% of his time in combat. I don't want to get randomly struck and stunned because I'm tending a pet bleeder, so, I don't keep pet bleeders. Having bleeding wounds on your legs also impedes your evasion, I believe.
Now, shock, afaik, doesn't impair your abilities, just your empathic ones. Absolution impedes empathy (akin to shock), and allows you to train weapons. It's not a 'reduction of your abilities', since you don't use Empathy to kill the undead. My point was that having a pet bleeder to train FA is akin to requiring barbarians use a crappier weapon to train a weapon skill, or say, having Benediction 'buff less' to continue training in combat.
The problem isn't that having a pet bleeder trains well, the problem is that there aren't other ways to train FA, because having a pet bleeder is a stupid way to train. Compendiums need work, or additional systems need work, but as it stands, pet bleeders to me are akin to picking much more difficult boxes blind - a very silly mechanical abuse of the way 'Things Should Be'.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use
01/24/2015 11:57 AM CST
>>As an Empath you should avoid any weapon training, except on constructs (which are just plain silly since why should Empaths hurt anything)
I absolutely and wholeheartedly disagree with this statement as completely as possible. Having the supernatural gift of Empathy does not suddenly render someone a fumbled fingered moron when it comes to weaponry. That is as absurd as saying all Empaths must be huggly smoochy window lickers, and only does the guild a disservice.
Samsaren
I absolutely and wholeheartedly disagree with this statement as completely as possible. Having the supernatural gift of Empathy does not suddenly render someone a fumbled fingered moron when it comes to weaponry. That is as absurd as saying all Empaths must be huggly smoochy window lickers, and only does the guild a disservice.
Samsaren
GAMERGIRL151
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use
01/24/2015 12:25 PM CST
>>As an Empath you should avoid any weapon training, except on constructs (which are just plain silly since why should Empaths hurt anything)
>I absolutely and wholeheartedly disagree with this statement as completely as possible.
+1
>>In fact why have the new spell because it reduces your capacities as an Empath.
AHAHAHAHA what?
On topic, I would love to see compendium FA experience increased, or perhaps other similar FA training methods added. As a wise person once said on the practice of pet bleeders: "I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous." - GM Socharis
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
>I absolutely and wholeheartedly disagree with this statement as completely as possible.
+1
>>In fact why have the new spell because it reduces your capacities as an Empath.
AHAHAHAHA what?
On topic, I would love to see compendium FA experience increased, or perhaps other similar FA training methods added. As a wise person once said on the practice of pet bleeders: "I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous." - GM Socharis
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use
01/24/2015 01:24 PM CST
One thing I love about Absolution is it allows Empaths the opportunity to more easily fill out that enormous skillset that was more or less barred to them. Though, I'd rather seem more Lore/Magic skills that are trainable in combat, but, meh.
What if First Aid could be trained as an alternative to Skinning (Anatomy studies)? What if First Aid could be trained as a function of some kind of 'pressure point strike' (complete with non-damaging options, like 'arm numb' or 'pain amplify' or such!). What if compendium charts had some kind of difficulty range addition, akin to instrument play styles?
I know the name of the game is NOT to make everything related to combat, but there are still a handful of options people have suggested for FA over the years.
What if First Aid could be trained as an alternative to Skinning (Anatomy studies)? What if First Aid could be trained as a function of some kind of 'pressure point strike' (complete with non-damaging options, like 'arm numb' or 'pain amplify' or such!). What if compendium charts had some kind of difficulty range addition, akin to instrument play styles?
I know the name of the game is NOT to make everything related to combat, but there are still a handful of options people have suggested for FA over the years.
SARKRANIS
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use
01/24/2015 07:24 PM CST
>>Jhaliascleric: I think pet bleeders as a training paradigm is to be avoided.
I, too, would like to see an end to the unbelievable practice of wanting to keep "pet bleeders." However, until there are other viable ways to train first aid at high levels, I would support optional targeted syntax for Regenerate (as well as the ability to "cast internal" for the Heal spell).
Besides, is keeping a pet bleeder really any less obnoxious than whining about not having "enough" wounds, sticking your head in a barrel of venomous serpents for a chance to win a prize, or any of the other insane things that often get a pass because "adventurers aren't normal"?
"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
I, too, would like to see an end to the unbelievable practice of wanting to keep "pet bleeders." However, until there are other viable ways to train first aid at high levels, I would support optional targeted syntax for Regenerate (as well as the ability to "cast internal" for the Heal spell).
Besides, is keeping a pet bleeder really any less obnoxious than whining about not having "enough" wounds, sticking your head in a barrel of venomous serpents for a chance to win a prize, or any of the other insane things that often get a pass because "adventurers aren't normal"?
"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use
01/25/2015 12:39 AM CST
>I would support optional targeted syntax for Regenerate (as well as the ability to "cast internal" for the Heal spell).
I suppose, if its an easier fix in the short term than updating the skill. It's just a shame to see bandaids placed on skills that were clearly never meant to be geared for 500+ range.
>Besides, is keeping a pet bleeder really any less obnoxious than whining about not having "enough" wounds, sticking your head in a barrel of venomous serpents for a chance to win a prize, or any of the other insane things that often get a pass because "adventurers aren't normal"?
Eh, I wouldn't say fest activities compromise normal activities. But, fwiw, as an aside, yes, Empaths complaining there aren't enough wounds is weird. Especially given how many effective ways there are of training Empathy.
I suppose, if its an easier fix in the short term than updating the skill. It's just a shame to see bandaids placed on skills that were clearly never meant to be geared for 500+ range.
>Besides, is keeping a pet bleeder really any less obnoxious than whining about not having "enough" wounds, sticking your head in a barrel of venomous serpents for a chance to win a prize, or any of the other insane things that often get a pass because "adventurers aren't normal"?
Eh, I wouldn't say fest activities compromise normal activities. But, fwiw, as an aside, yes, Empaths complaining there aren't enough wounds is weird. Especially given how many effective ways there are of training Empathy.
DELVER
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use (FA side discussion)
01/25/2015 08:04 AM CST
>I absolutely and wholeheartedly disagree with this statement as completely as possible. Having the supernatural gift of Empathy does not suddenly render someone a fumbled fingered moron when it comes to weaponry. That is as absurd as saying all Empaths must be huggly smoochy window lickers, and only does the guild a disservice.
We play a text base game so why take a portion of a statement out and change the context?
In the past 7 years the Asbhuan character has spent well more than half that time shocked. That includes 2.0 perma-shock for killing non-construct creatures. You can draw your own conclusions to both the RP reasoning and the testing of the mechanics. I still don't restrict hunting or testing to only constructs. But then I spend 95% of my time in Plat so I must be huggy smoochy and incapable of testing or expecting more of player's posts than oblique generalized statements, in this case Jhaliacleric's FA paradigm. Further hint: 3.0 was dropped into Plat 2 months before it hit Test. There were live tested issues that cropped up with shock that you never saw in Test.
But this is a digression. A final word on FA, it affects more than just Empaths, so expand your thoughts to the whole and don't only focus on how experience gain methods affect Empaths and looks absurd.
Asbhuan
We play a text base game so why take a portion of a statement out and change the context?
In the past 7 years the Asbhuan character has spent well more than half that time shocked. That includes 2.0 perma-shock for killing non-construct creatures. You can draw your own conclusions to both the RP reasoning and the testing of the mechanics. I still don't restrict hunting or testing to only constructs. But then I spend 95% of my time in Plat so I must be huggy smoochy and incapable of testing or expecting more of player's posts than oblique generalized statements, in this case Jhaliacleric's FA paradigm. Further hint: 3.0 was dropped into Plat 2 months before it hit Test. There were live tested issues that cropped up with shock that you never saw in Test.
But this is a digression. A final word on FA, it affects more than just Empaths, so expand your thoughts to the whole and don't only focus on how experience gain methods affect Empaths and looks absurd.
Asbhuan
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use (FA side discussion)
01/25/2015 10:23 AM CST
... but empaths have tools for hunting that doesn't involve shocking them... As for the rest of your off topic shock digression, I'm not sure what you think it has to do with what we're currently talking about.
>But this is a digression. A final word on FA, it affects more than just Empaths, so expand your thoughts to the whole and don't only focus on how experience gain methods affect Empaths and looks absurd.
Yes, indeed, it affects more than Empaths - which is why, personally, I would rather see FA fixed/updated in a way that doesn't involve allowing some kind of Regen or Heal reduction/alternative use to continue it's broken paradigm for Empath training... It would be VASTLY easier to add a 'ARRANGE ANATOMY' that let you earn some FA and fix the problem for virtually everyone, than to kajigger some kind of 'Regen option that only heals non-bleeders' that only serves to let Empaths keep their pet bleeders. If the name of the game is only letting Necromancers have an in combat method for training FA, I think that's sort of silly. What about all the other survival secondaries, or even survival primes (putting aside Necromancers, since they have an adequate solution) - should they get some kind of tool for, say, self inflicting wounds so they can maintain and keep pet bleeders too?
>But this is a digression. A final word on FA, it affects more than just Empaths, so expand your thoughts to the whole and don't only focus on how experience gain methods affect Empaths and looks absurd.
Yes, indeed, it affects more than Empaths - which is why, personally, I would rather see FA fixed/updated in a way that doesn't involve allowing some kind of Regen or Heal reduction/alternative use to continue it's broken paradigm for Empath training... It would be VASTLY easier to add a 'ARRANGE ANATOMY' that let you earn some FA and fix the problem for virtually everyone, than to kajigger some kind of 'Regen option that only heals non-bleeders' that only serves to let Empaths keep their pet bleeders. If the name of the game is only letting Necromancers have an in combat method for training FA, I think that's sort of silly. What about all the other survival secondaries, or even survival primes (putting aside Necromancers, since they have an adequate solution) - should they get some kind of tool for, say, self inflicting wounds so they can maintain and keep pet bleeders too?
ABSOLON
Re: Regenerate - Alternate Use (FA side discussion)
01/25/2015 10:59 AM CST
It's somewhat amusing watching a misunderstanding due to sarcasm detection being turned off devolve into an argument.
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