Previous
>>Overhealing is only dangerous to young empaths and those with substandard scripts.
Perhaps you just rely on scripts more than some of us, but I've never found this to be true. I still on occasion overheal and I am far from a "young empath" nor have I ever found my scripts ot be "substandard" but rather, exactly what I want them to be, tools, not the primary force that I use to do anything. Just because not everyone wants every aspect of game play scripted doesn't mean that their scripts are substandard. I pride myself on speed-healing. Getting wounds off of folks as fast as possible. My scripts are built around this. However, this opens me up to overhealing. If it didn't, I'd sort of lose the pride of speed-healing without ending up dead.
So yea, hunting is as dangerous as you want it to be when you want it to be. So is healing. Get rid of overhealing, and what is the "challenge" of being an empath?
~Player of ChelmorAes
DYMPHNA
LEEJ82
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/12/2011 02:16 PM CDT
<<Getting wounds off of folks as fast as possible. My scripts are built around this. However, this opens me up to overhealing. If it didn't, I'd sort of lose the pride of speed-healing without ending up dead.
I get that, but asking for a notification opens up an easier way to script an out. So you can easily heal right up to the point of overhealing without doing so with a simple action variable.
Which confuses me. Older empaths will, by and large, simply include that in their scripts and avoid overhealing entirely unless they're doing it manually.
It's not impossible to write a script that prevents overhealing right now by assigning wound level variables for every bodypart, which is another reason the push to keep overhealing confuses me.
Particularly as Empaths can and do hunt now.
I get that, but asking for a notification opens up an easier way to script an out. So you can easily heal right up to the point of overhealing without doing so with a simple action variable.
Which confuses me. Older empaths will, by and large, simply include that in their scripts and avoid overhealing entirely unless they're doing it manually.
It's not impossible to write a script that prevents overhealing right now by assigning wound level variables for every bodypart, which is another reason the push to keep overhealing confuses me.
Particularly as Empaths can and do hunt now.
DYMPHNA
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/12/2011 02:54 PM CDT
>>I get that, but asking for a notification opens up an easier way to script an out.
I didn't ask for it. I said it was a good compromise. There's a big difference. I know I've seen others say the same thing, that if there is going to be a change, that messaging would be the way to go, or a feat, something that requires you to DECIDE to pay attention to it.
>>Older empaths will, by and large, simply include that in their scripts and avoid overhealing entirely unless they're doing it manually.
That doesn't seem to be the general opinion of folks responding here, so I'm curious what you're basing this assumption on.
>>It's not impossible to write a script that prevents overhealing right now by assigning wound level variables for every bodypart, which is another reason the push to keep overhealing confuses >>me.
Some of us don't rely entirely on our scripts for these things. Would it be impossible? No, of course not. But I think you overestimate the amount that folks are relying on scripts to do their thinking for them. Part of the fun is figuring out what I can and cannot take from a pulpy moon mage and still survive. Why ruin that just because I could script it?
>>Particularly as Empaths can and do hunt now.
SOME Empaths can and do hunt now. This one doesn't. I know others who feel the same. I don't think the guild should essentially force Empaths to be combat focused when they want to be healing focused in a guild that is supposedly based around healing. Why remove the challenge from the healing focused side and make anyone who wants to be challenged either be a Battle Empath or do non-guild related things? The guild right now has a great balance to allow those who want to focus on combat to do so, while not forcing those who do not, and vice versa. If you remove the "challenge" of healing, you upset that balance a great deal, IMHO.
~Player of ChelmorAes
I didn't ask for it. I said it was a good compromise. There's a big difference. I know I've seen others say the same thing, that if there is going to be a change, that messaging would be the way to go, or a feat, something that requires you to DECIDE to pay attention to it.
>>Older empaths will, by and large, simply include that in their scripts and avoid overhealing entirely unless they're doing it manually.
That doesn't seem to be the general opinion of folks responding here, so I'm curious what you're basing this assumption on.
>>It's not impossible to write a script that prevents overhealing right now by assigning wound level variables for every bodypart, which is another reason the push to keep overhealing confuses >>me.
Some of us don't rely entirely on our scripts for these things. Would it be impossible? No, of course not. But I think you overestimate the amount that folks are relying on scripts to do their thinking for them. Part of the fun is figuring out what I can and cannot take from a pulpy moon mage and still survive. Why ruin that just because I could script it?
>>Particularly as Empaths can and do hunt now.
SOME Empaths can and do hunt now. This one doesn't. I know others who feel the same. I don't think the guild should essentially force Empaths to be combat focused when they want to be healing focused in a guild that is supposedly based around healing. Why remove the challenge from the healing focused side and make anyone who wants to be challenged either be a Battle Empath or do non-guild related things? The guild right now has a great balance to allow those who want to focus on combat to do so, while not forcing those who do not, and vice versa. If you remove the "challenge" of healing, you upset that balance a great deal, IMHO.
~Player of ChelmorAes
LEEJ82
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/12/2011 03:01 PM CDT
<<Some of us don't rely entirely on our scripts for these things. Would it be impossible? No, of course not. But I think you overestimate the amount that folks are relying on scripts to do their thinking for them. Part of the fun is figuring out what I can and cannot take from a pulpy moon mage and still survive. Why ruin that just because I could script it?
Because it makes the learning curve for new Empaths that much higher, and unless it has been changed, one of the goals for 3.0 is to make the game more friendly to new players.
Because it makes the learning curve for new Empaths that much higher, and unless it has been changed, one of the goals for 3.0 is to make the game more friendly to new players.
LUNARIMP
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/12/2011 03:10 PM CDT
>> Because it makes the learning curve for new Empaths that much higher, and unless it has been changed, one of the goals for 3.0 is to make the game more friendly to new players.
There is a large difference between friendly and fun. Low level empaths already tend to not be able to pull wounds off fast enough to kill themselves overhealing, so there are already safeguards for this (at least from what I have seen).
I'm not particularly fond of the idea of adding in "Danger! Danger!" messaging in most cases, but I'd rather than than removing over-healing overall.
There is a large difference between friendly and fun. Low level empaths already tend to not be able to pull wounds off fast enough to kill themselves overhealing, so there are already safeguards for this (at least from what I have seen).
I'm not particularly fond of the idea of adding in "Danger! Danger!" messaging in most cases, but I'd rather than than removing over-healing overall.
DYMPHNA
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/12/2011 03:26 PM CDT
>>Because it makes the learning curve for new Empaths that much higher, and unless it has been changed, one of the goals for 3.0 is to make the game more friendly to new players.
Is the learning curve for new Empaths that high to begin with really? New combat related guilds risk death when they're learning the ins and outs of combat. They have to learn weapon types and armor types and how to stance and how to thrust versus lunge and what that really does. Empaths learn how to take wounds, which is fairly simple mechanically, and how not to overheal. How exactly is the learning curve in need of being less steep?
~Player of ChelmorAes
Is the learning curve for new Empaths that high to begin with really? New combat related guilds risk death when they're learning the ins and outs of combat. They have to learn weapon types and armor types and how to stance and how to thrust versus lunge and what that really does. Empaths learn how to take wounds, which is fairly simple mechanically, and how not to overheal. How exactly is the learning curve in need of being less steep?
~Player of ChelmorAes
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/12/2011 04:00 PM CDT
>>New combat related guilds risk death when they're learning the ins and outs of combat.
Agreed. The strong majority of near-death experiences my characters face tend to be in the field goblin to rock troll level.
Agreed. The strong majority of near-death experiences my characters face tend to be in the field goblin to rock troll level.
DGUTHRIE
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/12/2011 04:07 PM CDT
LEEJ82 is the new J'Lo. Take every opinion, stance, or platform with a huge grain of salt. Let's not confuse him with the facts. His mind is made up.
________________________________________________________________________________
We've decided that instead of spells Paladins will be a new arm of the Bard guild utilizing interpretive dance moves.
~GM Zeyurn
________________________________________________________________________________
We've decided that instead of spells Paladins will be a new arm of the Bard guild utilizing interpretive dance moves.
~GM Zeyurn
KLINDHH1
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/12/2011 04:56 PM CDT
>> There is a large difference between friendly and fun. Low level empaths already tend to not be able to pull wounds off fast enough to kill themselves overhealing, so there are already safeguards for this (at least from what I have seen).
A very low level empath is incapable of over healing even if they wanted to. After a certain wound level they simply can't keep the healing link open to take more. So at low skills/stat levels you can't take fatal wounds at all. As you gain more ranks you go through a stage where you lose the link and have to keep retyping take wound to overheal. Admittedly there is then the point where you can suddenly take a whole wound but it takes quite a lot of pulses and you already get warnings via the pain emits that you are reaching certain wound level thresholds - falling to your knees in pain for example. In my experience overhealing by accident is really a mid level empath problem - it only really comes in when you have the skills and stats to take all wounds on one person in one go and you dont take the time to check what they have or when you start to be able to take a fatal wound in a couple of pulses and thus lose out on the warnings that otherwise exist.
SARKRANIS
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/12/2011 07:12 PM CDT
>>Leej82: It's not impossible to write a script that prevents overhealing right now by assigning wound level variables for every bodypart, which is another reason the push to keep overhealing confuses me.
The take script that I wrote for Genie does just that. However, I don't see the element of risk as pointless just because it's possible to write a script to overcome it. (You could use similar arguments to justify the removal of danger from other activities.)
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
The take script that I wrote for Genie does just that. However, I don't see the element of risk as pointless just because it's possible to write a script to overcome it. (You could use similar arguments to justify the removal of danger from other activities.)
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
LEEJ82
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/12/2011 07:24 PM CDT
<<The take script that I wrote for Genie does just that. However, I don't see the element of risk as pointless just because it's possible to write a script to overcome it. (You could use similar arguments to justify the removal of danger from other activities.)
That's not what I'm arguing here; I'm saying healing is a very finite system with no real randomness involved in it (at least mechanically). All of the requests to keep overhealing have run very much tepid. Bluntly, it's perfectly possible to avoid overhealing right now and people are asking for more ways to help avoid it but they don't want it gone. That sort of thinking confuses me.
You can write scripts that minimize the risk in hunting, but because there are random variables involved it's impossible to remove that risk. If hunting was possible to script into a non-risk activity, I'd ask why we bothered having lethality in those systems too.
That's not what I'm arguing here; I'm saying healing is a very finite system with no real randomness involved in it (at least mechanically). All of the requests to keep overhealing have run very much tepid. Bluntly, it's perfectly possible to avoid overhealing right now and people are asking for more ways to help avoid it but they don't want it gone. That sort of thinking confuses me.
You can write scripts that minimize the risk in hunting, but because there are random variables involved it's impossible to remove that risk. If hunting was possible to script into a non-risk activity, I'd ask why we bothered having lethality in those systems too.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/12/2011 07:44 PM CDT
Just because something is easy to avoid doesn't mean it is something that shouldn't exist as a risk.
It's easy to avoid being accused of Necromancy while playing a Necromancer, yet a very robust system still exists to handle that specific situation.
It's easy to avoid getting hurt by danger events while mining, yet they all still exist.
It's easy to avoid falling down on ice in certain zones, yet it still exists.
Etc etc etc.
It's easy to avoid being accused of Necromancy while playing a Necromancer, yet a very robust system still exists to handle that specific situation.
It's easy to avoid getting hurt by danger events while mining, yet they all still exist.
It's easy to avoid falling down on ice in certain zones, yet it still exists.
Etc etc etc.
YZRAQHUNT
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/12/2011 08:20 PM CDT
It's far different to have overhealing gone in a system will not let you to overheal period making it impossible to overheal verses a message that can be ignored or scripted for. Just think if in combat, every time you were about to die, little fairies dragged you out of combat and healed you. Will you fighters really be interested in that kind of thing? That is exactly what taking overhealing completely out of the system is proposing for empaths. Right now you can basically make a script to make those fairies appear, but it's far different proposal to have all danger removed from combat period by the system. Please understand the actual problem before you tell us that what we want is a confusing request. It is apples and oranges to what you are saying we are saying.
KINDELWYN
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/12/2011 08:41 PM CDT
Overhealing should stay exactly the way it is.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 02:53 AM CDT
>>Overhealing is only dangerous to young empaths and those with substandard scripts.
Tolena is a Legendary Empath. She's also been doing this quite a while, and her scripts are fine.
She died today taking my head wound. People forget sometimes.
*******
Malkien
Tolena is a Legendary Empath. She's also been doing this quite a while, and her scripts are fine.
She died today taking my head wound. People forget sometimes.
*******
Malkien
LEEJ82
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 05:40 AM CDT
<<Tolena is a Legendary Empath. She's also been doing this quite a while, and her scripts are fine.
Operator error is operator error. You don't account for operator error when designing a system. You account for operator error when determining the allowable error range of the system. This is probably why the empathy rewrite did not include overhealing.
This discussion is probably over. It will come up again in six months. Then a year later. Eventually overhealing will go away, probably in the dark of night while a transference bug is getting fixed, and nobody will notice.
Operator error is operator error. You don't account for operator error when designing a system. You account for operator error when determining the allowable error range of the system. This is probably why the empathy rewrite did not include overhealing.
This discussion is probably over. It will come up again in six months. Then a year later. Eventually overhealing will go away, probably in the dark of night while a transference bug is getting fixed, and nobody will notice.
DGUTHRIE
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 06:23 AM CDT
>>The idea of a Transcendent Empath healing a totally obliterated person and having only small scratches and the odd twitching is attractive, but I don't want to do that at the expense of any sort of challenge for high level empaths.<<
I like this idea. I think there should be some benefit or advantage to being a high level empath. I also think that any feature like this should be capped at a maximum of 50% of the wound. For instance, an empath with lower skill should take and transfer 100% of the wound from the patient to themselves. As that empath increases their ability, a completely destroyed wound will transfer to the empath, but the empath will only have 50% of the wound from the patient so that a Useless level wound on the patient is only a Damaging level wound on the empath.
The upside to this is that the empath becomes a much more valuable asset in a triage environment and can basically heal with a 2 for 1 advantage over less skilled empaths. Overall the more experienced empath is much more efficient with healing and can return to the fray much sooner.
The downside is there won't be as much magic experience gained from healing yourself. This is fine. There are other ways to train magics, and should be, especially outside of a triage. A more senior empath SHOULD return to healing duty much quicker than a junior one.
This is a completely separate issue from overhealing. Overhealing will still exist and will actually be more likely to occur during triage situations as empaths get more confident in their healing abilities. For me it's never been the first deader that kills me, it's the third or fourth. As the wounds build up, the empath weighs their self-healing against the needs of others and makes the determination that they can take this next wound before healing a particular area on themselves... that's when they'll make a slight miscalculation and end up dead.
As a character I pride myself on NEVER overhealing under ANY circumstances, and I ridicule those who do for being unprofessional and becoming an unnecessary burden on others because they died during the practice of their craft, the one thing they do that defines empaths.
On another note:
Leilond, healing already tanks concentration and stamina. Even with some of our stamina boosting buffs up, it's possible to collapse from fatigue while taking wounds, as well as tank your concentration so much that you can't cast the simplest of spells to try and stabilize yourself. The best are the box poppers that nearly blow themselves up, get poisoned, or have fire ants. As the empath, you're doing everything you can to keep that one person alive, the one that's already falling down and dying, or unconscious from their wounds and have that message that they should "release life" or whatever it is. As the empath, you know that if their poison pulses again, or the disease, or their bleeders, then that patient dies, so you transfer as quickly as you can, tanking your stamina and concentration, and when you REALLY need to cast that flush poison, cure disease, vitality healing, or blood staunch... the spell backfires on you and you're nearly out of mana. THAT is what makes playing an empath great! Keeping both you and your patient alive is thrilling.
________________________________________________________________________________
We've decided that instead of spells Paladins will be a new arm of the Bard guild utilizing interpretive dance moves.
~GM Zeyurn
I like this idea. I think there should be some benefit or advantage to being a high level empath. I also think that any feature like this should be capped at a maximum of 50% of the wound. For instance, an empath with lower skill should take and transfer 100% of the wound from the patient to themselves. As that empath increases their ability, a completely destroyed wound will transfer to the empath, but the empath will only have 50% of the wound from the patient so that a Useless level wound on the patient is only a Damaging level wound on the empath.
The upside to this is that the empath becomes a much more valuable asset in a triage environment and can basically heal with a 2 for 1 advantage over less skilled empaths. Overall the more experienced empath is much more efficient with healing and can return to the fray much sooner.
The downside is there won't be as much magic experience gained from healing yourself. This is fine. There are other ways to train magics, and should be, especially outside of a triage. A more senior empath SHOULD return to healing duty much quicker than a junior one.
This is a completely separate issue from overhealing. Overhealing will still exist and will actually be more likely to occur during triage situations as empaths get more confident in their healing abilities. For me it's never been the first deader that kills me, it's the third or fourth. As the wounds build up, the empath weighs their self-healing against the needs of others and makes the determination that they can take this next wound before healing a particular area on themselves... that's when they'll make a slight miscalculation and end up dead.
As a character I pride myself on NEVER overhealing under ANY circumstances, and I ridicule those who do for being unprofessional and becoming an unnecessary burden on others because they died during the practice of their craft, the one thing they do that defines empaths.
On another note:
Leilond, healing already tanks concentration and stamina. Even with some of our stamina boosting buffs up, it's possible to collapse from fatigue while taking wounds, as well as tank your concentration so much that you can't cast the simplest of spells to try and stabilize yourself. The best are the box poppers that nearly blow themselves up, get poisoned, or have fire ants. As the empath, you're doing everything you can to keep that one person alive, the one that's already falling down and dying, or unconscious from their wounds and have that message that they should "release life" or whatever it is. As the empath, you know that if their poison pulses again, or the disease, or their bleeders, then that patient dies, so you transfer as quickly as you can, tanking your stamina and concentration, and when you REALLY need to cast that flush poison, cure disease, vitality healing, or blood staunch... the spell backfires on you and you're nearly out of mana. THAT is what makes playing an empath great! Keeping both you and your patient alive is thrilling.
________________________________________________________________________________
We've decided that instead of spells Paladins will be a new arm of the Bard guild utilizing interpretive dance moves.
~GM Zeyurn
DR-MELETE
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 06:34 AM CDT
>>Operator error is operator error. You don't account for operator error when designing a system. You account for operator error when determining the allowable error range of the system. This is probably why the empathy rewrite did not include overhealing.
I know this may not be a terribly Professional tack, but as a Game Designer, I try to design systems for my guild that will be fun. My job is to maximize the fun had by Empath players while making sure the systems I roll out also don't ruin fun for the rest of the game as a whole. I can easily create a pretty, streamlined, balanced to the nth-decimal place system, but if that system is not fun for the players I am designing it for, then I have failed.
Melete
[Turmis] I'm about to shoot beards in the face
I know this may not be a terribly Professional tack, but as a Game Designer, I try to design systems for my guild that will be fun. My job is to maximize the fun had by Empath players while making sure the systems I roll out also don't ruin fun for the rest of the game as a whole. I can easily create a pretty, streamlined, balanced to the nth-decimal place system, but if that system is not fun for the players I am designing it for, then I have failed.
Melete
[Turmis] I'm about to shoot beards in the face
BEVERAGEK
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 07:33 AM CDT
Ahh sweet, that's good info DGUTHRIE. I wasn't suggesting that transference reduction should reduce concentration even further :P I was just suggesting that scaling its effectiveness with concentration might be an option. Additionally, maybe it could just be an ability that you activate and it lasts so long and has a cool down.
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 07:53 AM CDT
>>Operator error is operator error. You don't account for operator error when designing a system. You account for operator error when determining the allowable error range of the system. This is probably why the empathy rewrite did not include overhealing.
Once again, this is how getting hurt while mining, getting accused while a Necromancer, etc also happens.
Hell, getting hurt in combat is pretty much an operator error these days except at high circles, random number generator or otherwise. I know full well what will or won't end up killing me or putting me in risk before I fight it.
Once again, this is how getting hurt while mining, getting accused while a Necromancer, etc also happens.
Hell, getting hurt in combat is pretty much an operator error these days except at high circles, random number generator or otherwise. I know full well what will or won't end up killing me or putting me in risk before I fight it.
LEEJ82
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 08:48 AM CDT
<<I know this may not be a terribly Professional tack, but as a Game Designer, I try to design systems for my guild that will be fun. My job is to maximize the fun had by Empath players while making sure the systems I roll out also don't ruin fun for the rest of the game as a whole. I can easily create a pretty, streamlined, balanced to the nth-decimal place system, but if that system is not fun for the players I am designing it for, then I have failed.
Then please explain beards.
Kidding!
No, I get that, but I'm just not understanding what's been said in this thread. It's like "I've built this fire, it can either burn you if you put your hand in it or not burn you if you put your hand in it." and the responses have all been variations of "Well I want to stand a little closer to the fire, but since I've got my nomex gloves, I'm not worried about being burnt. But please let me stand closer to the fire!"
It just boggles me.
Then please explain beards.
Kidding!
No, I get that, but I'm just not understanding what's been said in this thread. It's like "I've built this fire, it can either burn you if you put your hand in it or not burn you if you put your hand in it." and the responses have all been variations of "Well I want to stand a little closer to the fire, but since I've got my nomex gloves, I'm not worried about being burnt. But please let me stand closer to the fire!"
It just boggles me.
LUNARIMP
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 09:20 AM CDT
>> No, I get that, but I'm just not understanding what's been said in this thread. It's like "I've built this fire, it can either burn you if you put your hand in it or not burn you if you put your hand in it." and the responses have all been variations of "Well I want to stand a little closer to the fire, but since I've got my nomex gloves, I'm not worried about being burnt. But please let me stand closer to the fire!"
>>It just boggles me.
I think the part that is missing is that risk and reward are highly motivating factors. When you dumb down a system to where it becomes trivial (especially a system that is basically the core of an entire guild), it is not surprising that most people would then find it to be boring and lackluster. The sense of accomplishment is a strong driving force and, in all honesty, my empath has felt like the character that has capped out the earliest. I have all the spells and my healing doesn't really get any better (although obviously the healing 2.0 system will make this better). The only thing I really have to accomplish on my empath now is just getting that last Age shift option without the use of CJs. Removing the risk, and therefor reward for doing it well, from healing would make it a thoughtless process that has little depth.
I would understand that someone who hasn't played an empath as a serious character wouldn't understand why people don't want their core mechanic to become so dumbed down. But as you can see from the responses in this thread by people who actively play their emapths, there is something there that can't be explained in words and has to be experienced.
>>It just boggles me.
I think the part that is missing is that risk and reward are highly motivating factors. When you dumb down a system to where it becomes trivial (especially a system that is basically the core of an entire guild), it is not surprising that most people would then find it to be boring and lackluster. The sense of accomplishment is a strong driving force and, in all honesty, my empath has felt like the character that has capped out the earliest. I have all the spells and my healing doesn't really get any better (although obviously the healing 2.0 system will make this better). The only thing I really have to accomplish on my empath now is just getting that last Age shift option without the use of CJs. Removing the risk, and therefor reward for doing it well, from healing would make it a thoughtless process that has little depth.
I would understand that someone who hasn't played an empath as a serious character wouldn't understand why people don't want their core mechanic to become so dumbed down. But as you can see from the responses in this thread by people who actively play their emapths, there is something there that can't be explained in words and has to be experienced.
DYMPHNA
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 09:27 AM CDT
WARNING: This post is long as I quote pretty much everyone who responses before LEEJ82 started expressing confusion. There is a summary at the bottom for those who don't want to read the quotes, but if you want to make sure I got your position right, I'll gladly accept corrections.
>>No, I get that, but I'm just not understanding what's been said in this thread. It's like "I've built this fire, it can either burn you if you put your hand in it or not burn you if you put >>your hand in it." and the responses have all been variations of "Well I want to stand a little closer to the fire, but since I've got my nomex gloves, I'm not worried about being burnt. But >>please let me stand closer to the fire!"
As I've suggested before, you could stop selectively reading responses and be much less boggled. To help you out:
>>YZRAQHUNT: I could see it's removal into a feat, assuming the feat will take something to make it happen other than just achieving it once and being good for the rest of their career without >>having to think about it again. If it'll be automatic, please don't put it into a feat.
>>ALEPH-ONE: I could see some rare/auction item that warned you or something when you were about to overheal, or somehow bought you some extra time, but I wouldn't want to see it removed.
>>LAMBL: I wouldn't mind seeing it go, but I agree that it would seem a little strange. I'd say make it a skill based feat. Since people seem interested in keeping it, though, maybe there's a >>middle ground that could be pursued.
Yep, I understand this one says "get rid of it" but notice the mention of a COMPROMISE and it is that compromise you are finding boggling.
>>DGUTHRIE: I'd hate to see it go.
>>PSHA: Another vote for 'don't remove overhealing'.
>>NIKPAK: I'd like to see it become a (high) skill based feat.
Again, he's like to see it gone or something, but there is nothing here to boggle you.
>>GANGREL: Overhealing should only go away if monsters beat you unconscious and leave instead of killing you. Maybe make a more difficult option to transfering like when you take >>part/some/half to only take what you can survive...
Although compromise isn't explicitly mentioned here, one could argue it is implied. Even if it wasn't, this is more of the "feat" instead of "automatic" suggestion anyway and does not fit into your example of folks standing near a fire, and therefore shouldn't really boggle your mind any more than us liking "take half" does.
>>LUNARIMP: I agree with everyone here in that overhealing is part of being an empath. Learning how to be fast and ride the knife's edge of life in triage is one of the things I enjoy the >>most on my empath. If it were to just go away I think it would make the whole process, and even a large part of the guild, boring.
>>LADYFEY: I agree. Please don't remove overhealing. I like that aspect of play. It leads to a sense of accomplishment for the empath if they can survive not one but multiple corpses >>without killing themselves off in the process.
>>YOU: Wouldn't mind seeing it gone so I don't have to pay close attention to how many ways a corpse has been chopped when healing.
>>ME: Perhaps some empathy related warning would be a compromise, but I don't think it should auto-break the link.
Again note the mention of compromise. I'm not saying I WANT this, I'm saying I'd be willing to accept if it I had to, hence, compromise.
The three that could maybe boggle you, I'm not sure, I guess it depends on how you read it:
>>GAMMERGIRL151: Another "please don't take away over healing" from me....I'd love to see it in a feat or in part of a spell. Gift of Life is largely under-used and lasts a looong time. It >>should be something earned. Like others have said, there needs to be a risk to the empathic ability and dangerous wounds or you make the whole thing rather trivial.
>>SARKRANIS: Make it a feat, spell, or some other special ability that must be earned. (Empaths don't have a 100th circle ability.) I like that over-healing adds an element of danger to >>healing, but at some point, the Empath's sense of self-preservation should kick in and say, "Maybe I do need a chest to live."
>>IRBORED: I'd also like to say don't take overhealing away. A feat or a spell would be nice for some triage conditions but I don't want people to use it as a crutch either.
Although again, the above are not asking for something automatic, but rather something earned. So it does fit into your analogy, since you'd have to put on your special gloves in order to survive the fire and some might choose not to wear gloves.
And some that I guess if you wanted to could boggle you:
>>ENOTS: Personally, I think the removal of the chance of overhealing would be illogical. However, perhaps a warning that it's about to happen in monsterbold is in order. If the empath >>chooses to continue taking the damaging wound anyway, it's not as if the warning got lost in scroll- which does happen in triage situations.
>>BEVERAGEK: I like ENOTS's post and idea purely from a logical stand-point. Having a warning gives the player a choice.
Notice that one is from a non-empath, however. I'm not sure if he does or does not play one, but I'm nearly certain Leilond himself is a non-Empath and if he does play one, he doesn't do much healing (no offense, Leilond, just based off of your later posts about concentration and appreciating the information that you'd have if you played an empath primarily).
It is after this string of replies that you start getting confused, according to your posts. I may have missed one or two in there. So let's do the math. If we give you all five that are potentially confusing if you want to, that's 5 folks that could confuse you and 10 that are clearly not confusing. So even if we give you a biased interpretation of all three that are on the fence, there are STILL more folks in the camp of having a very clear opinion that don't fit your notion of what you've apparently decided everyone is saying than there are folks who fit into it. So, the folks who you shouldn't really be confused by are twice in number from the folks you could potentially be confused by. Either way, you cannot say that the responses have ALL been fitting into your analogy, particularly since the majority have not. Take off the filters and see what has actually been said.
(Note: I didn't count you, LEEJ82, in this math. You seem to say at one point that you don't want to see it gone, but then at another it seems you imply that you would like to see it gone by saying "Why bother keeping something in game that is only going to hinder young, inexperienced empaths and people who don't have scripting knowledge? Cut out the middleman and just remove it entirely." But since it would be odd for you to boggle yourself, and the second quote was in the post where you said you were confused, I left it off. Either way, that would make the count 6 to 9, and still the majority of folks are not boggling).
For everyone else - I considered not posting this but then thought, it's a nice summary of a discussion that we've already had so if it does come up again, we can just link to this post and go have a cup of tea. I hope that those who read in the future find this summary of the opinions expressed helpful. I apologize if you found it long and boring.
~Player of ChelmorAes
>>No, I get that, but I'm just not understanding what's been said in this thread. It's like "I've built this fire, it can either burn you if you put your hand in it or not burn you if you put >>your hand in it." and the responses have all been variations of "Well I want to stand a little closer to the fire, but since I've got my nomex gloves, I'm not worried about being burnt. But >>please let me stand closer to the fire!"
As I've suggested before, you could stop selectively reading responses and be much less boggled. To help you out:
>>YZRAQHUNT: I could see it's removal into a feat, assuming the feat will take something to make it happen other than just achieving it once and being good for the rest of their career without >>having to think about it again. If it'll be automatic, please don't put it into a feat.
>>ALEPH-ONE: I could see some rare/auction item that warned you or something when you were about to overheal, or somehow bought you some extra time, but I wouldn't want to see it removed.
>>LAMBL: I wouldn't mind seeing it go, but I agree that it would seem a little strange. I'd say make it a skill based feat. Since people seem interested in keeping it, though, maybe there's a >>middle ground that could be pursued.
Yep, I understand this one says "get rid of it" but notice the mention of a COMPROMISE and it is that compromise you are finding boggling.
>>DGUTHRIE: I'd hate to see it go.
>>PSHA: Another vote for 'don't remove overhealing'.
>>NIKPAK: I'd like to see it become a (high) skill based feat.
Again, he's like to see it gone or something, but there is nothing here to boggle you.
>>GANGREL: Overhealing should only go away if monsters beat you unconscious and leave instead of killing you. Maybe make a more difficult option to transfering like when you take >>part/some/half to only take what you can survive...
Although compromise isn't explicitly mentioned here, one could argue it is implied. Even if it wasn't, this is more of the "feat" instead of "automatic" suggestion anyway and does not fit into your example of folks standing near a fire, and therefore shouldn't really boggle your mind any more than us liking "take half" does.
>>LUNARIMP: I agree with everyone here in that overhealing is part of being an empath. Learning how to be fast and ride the knife's edge of life in triage is one of the things I enjoy the >>most on my empath. If it were to just go away I think it would make the whole process, and even a large part of the guild, boring.
>>LADYFEY: I agree. Please don't remove overhealing. I like that aspect of play. It leads to a sense of accomplishment for the empath if they can survive not one but multiple corpses >>without killing themselves off in the process.
>>YOU: Wouldn't mind seeing it gone so I don't have to pay close attention to how many ways a corpse has been chopped when healing.
>>ME: Perhaps some empathy related warning would be a compromise, but I don't think it should auto-break the link.
Again note the mention of compromise. I'm not saying I WANT this, I'm saying I'd be willing to accept if it I had to, hence, compromise.
The three that could maybe boggle you, I'm not sure, I guess it depends on how you read it:
>>GAMMERGIRL151: Another "please don't take away over healing" from me....I'd love to see it in a feat or in part of a spell. Gift of Life is largely under-used and lasts a looong time. It >>should be something earned. Like others have said, there needs to be a risk to the empathic ability and dangerous wounds or you make the whole thing rather trivial.
>>SARKRANIS: Make it a feat, spell, or some other special ability that must be earned. (Empaths don't have a 100th circle ability.) I like that over-healing adds an element of danger to >>healing, but at some point, the Empath's sense of self-preservation should kick in and say, "Maybe I do need a chest to live."
>>IRBORED: I'd also like to say don't take overhealing away. A feat or a spell would be nice for some triage conditions but I don't want people to use it as a crutch either.
Although again, the above are not asking for something automatic, but rather something earned. So it does fit into your analogy, since you'd have to put on your special gloves in order to survive the fire and some might choose not to wear gloves.
And some that I guess if you wanted to could boggle you:
>>ENOTS: Personally, I think the removal of the chance of overhealing would be illogical. However, perhaps a warning that it's about to happen in monsterbold is in order. If the empath >>chooses to continue taking the damaging wound anyway, it's not as if the warning got lost in scroll- which does happen in triage situations.
>>BEVERAGEK: I like ENOTS's post and idea purely from a logical stand-point. Having a warning gives the player a choice.
Notice that one is from a non-empath, however. I'm not sure if he does or does not play one, but I'm nearly certain Leilond himself is a non-Empath and if he does play one, he doesn't do much healing (no offense, Leilond, just based off of your later posts about concentration and appreciating the information that you'd have if you played an empath primarily).
It is after this string of replies that you start getting confused, according to your posts. I may have missed one or two in there. So let's do the math. If we give you all five that are potentially confusing if you want to, that's 5 folks that could confuse you and 10 that are clearly not confusing. So even if we give you a biased interpretation of all three that are on the fence, there are STILL more folks in the camp of having a very clear opinion that don't fit your notion of what you've apparently decided everyone is saying than there are folks who fit into it. So, the folks who you shouldn't really be confused by are twice in number from the folks you could potentially be confused by. Either way, you cannot say that the responses have ALL been fitting into your analogy, particularly since the majority have not. Take off the filters and see what has actually been said.
(Note: I didn't count you, LEEJ82, in this math. You seem to say at one point that you don't want to see it gone, but then at another it seems you imply that you would like to see it gone by saying "Why bother keeping something in game that is only going to hinder young, inexperienced empaths and people who don't have scripting knowledge? Cut out the middleman and just remove it entirely." But since it would be odd for you to boggle yourself, and the second quote was in the post where you said you were confused, I left it off. Either way, that would make the count 6 to 9, and still the majority of folks are not boggling).
For everyone else - I considered not posting this but then thought, it's a nice summary of a discussion that we've already had so if it does come up again, we can just link to this post and go have a cup of tea. I hope that those who read in the future find this summary of the opinions expressed helpful. I apologize if you found it long and boring.
~Player of ChelmorAes
DGUTHRIE
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 09:34 AM CDT
ChelmorAes - That was entertaining! Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
We've decided that instead of spells Paladins will be a new arm of the Bard guild utilizing interpretive dance moves.
~GM Zeyurn
________________________________________________________________________________
We've decided that instead of spells Paladins will be a new arm of the Bard guild utilizing interpretive dance moves.
~GM Zeyurn
DYMPHNA
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 09:35 AM CDT
>>ChelmorAes - That was entertaining! Thank you.
Happy to oblige, but I was going for informative :-D
~Player of ChelmorAes
Happy to oblige, but I was going for informative :-D
~Player of ChelmorAes
SARKRANIS
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 02:47 PM CDT
>>Dymphna: The three that could maybe boggle you, I'm not sure, I guess it depends on how you read it:
If my response seems a little ambivalent, it's because I am not as hard of a "no" as some of the other Empath players. My position on the removal of over-healing is that it may be too much of a dumbing down to apply it to the entire guild, but I wouldn't be opposed to allowing high-level Empaths to learn how to do it. If over-healing is not removed, I would not mind seeing a warning for every Empath.
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
If my response seems a little ambivalent, it's because I am not as hard of a "no" as some of the other Empath players. My position on the removal of over-healing is that it may be too much of a dumbing down to apply it to the entire guild, but I wouldn't be opposed to allowing high-level Empaths to learn how to do it. If over-healing is not removed, I would not mind seeing a warning for every Empath.
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
DYMPHNA
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 03:50 PM CDT
>>If my response seems a little ambivalent, it's because I am not as hard of a "no" as some of the other Empath players. My position on the removal of over-healing is that it may be too much >>of a dumbing down to apply it to the entire guild, but I wouldn't be opposed to allowing high-level Empaths to learn how to do it. If over-healing is not removed, I would not mind seeing a >>warning for every Empath.
Thanks for the clarification. From LEEJ82's perspective, that might make you boggling, I can't be certain. Basically, you might want it to stay, but if it does, you wouldn't mind a warning. I think that's the perspective he's having trouble reconciling. But your ambivalence sort of explains that. You wouldn't mind one way or the other if you get to stand near the fire at all, to use his analogy, if I'm understanding his analogy.
~Player of ChelmorAes
Thanks for the clarification. From LEEJ82's perspective, that might make you boggling, I can't be certain. Basically, you might want it to stay, but if it does, you wouldn't mind a warning. I think that's the perspective he's having trouble reconciling. But your ambivalence sort of explains that. You wouldn't mind one way or the other if you get to stand near the fire at all, to use his analogy, if I'm understanding his analogy.
~Player of ChelmorAes
ASREA
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 06:18 PM CDT
>>>If my response seems a little ambivalent, it's because I am not as hard of a "no" as some of the other Empath players. My position on the removal of over-healing is that it may be too much >>of a dumbing down to apply it to the entire guild, but I wouldn't be opposed to allowing high-level Empaths to learn how to do it. If over-healing is not removed, I would not mind seeing a >>warning for every Empath.
First off I figure I'll add I'm in the don't remove overhealing camp. I haven't overhealed in years and honestly can't remember the last time it happened. I figure it comes down to most empaths feeling that part of the skill of learning how to heal is learning how to manage wound levels effectively. Giving someone an automated warning or "pause" time if they hit near-overheal really negates any difficulty there is to a simple system.
I can see wound reduction as a high skill empath feat but at the same time, for those who have eclipsed empathy (50-75+, really) it doesn't change much. Sure we will get a reduction and be more effective healers, but as Empaths have become more adaptable we also have more Empath main-characters. I generally don't even bother responding to most requests for a healer at this point because there's generally someone who will already have pounced at the opportunity. The negative point to this is not the fact that the guild is thriving over the past couple years, it's more that the Empath guild will need to think outside the box to create opportunities for those at higher circles who are becoming a larger part of the population. An empath in the 100-150 range shouldn't have to be having an "I got here first" battle with empaths in the 25th-75th range who can heal just as effectively for individual patients which is 99% of healing. Empaths in the range of 25-100 SHOULD be the core of the healing for Elanthia, if there was options for those above that range to engage in something more substantial with their core guild skill it would be to everyone's benefit.
I'm very happy to see healing is getting some love and the attention we have gotten over the past few years is really appreciated. At the same time, the core guild skill problem still remains.
First off I figure I'll add I'm in the don't remove overhealing camp. I haven't overhealed in years and honestly can't remember the last time it happened. I figure it comes down to most empaths feeling that part of the skill of learning how to heal is learning how to manage wound levels effectively. Giving someone an automated warning or "pause" time if they hit near-overheal really negates any difficulty there is to a simple system.
I can see wound reduction as a high skill empath feat but at the same time, for those who have eclipsed empathy (50-75+, really) it doesn't change much. Sure we will get a reduction and be more effective healers, but as Empaths have become more adaptable we also have more Empath main-characters. I generally don't even bother responding to most requests for a healer at this point because there's generally someone who will already have pounced at the opportunity. The negative point to this is not the fact that the guild is thriving over the past couple years, it's more that the Empath guild will need to think outside the box to create opportunities for those at higher circles who are becoming a larger part of the population. An empath in the 100-150 range shouldn't have to be having an "I got here first" battle with empaths in the 25th-75th range who can heal just as effectively for individual patients which is 99% of healing. Empaths in the range of 25-100 SHOULD be the core of the healing for Elanthia, if there was options for those above that range to engage in something more substantial with their core guild skill it would be to everyone's benefit.
I'm very happy to see healing is getting some love and the attention we have gotten over the past few years is really appreciated. At the same time, the core guild skill problem still remains.
BEVERAGEK
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 06:27 PM CDT
Would be sweet if Empaths got a high level ability group heal which attempted to pull wounds from everyone in their party with the wound transference reduction effect IMO.
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
SARKRANIS
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/13/2011 08:01 PM CDT
>>Dymphna: I think that's the perspective he's having trouble reconciling. But your ambivalence sort of explains that.
The removal of over-healing wouldn't affect my current experience very much, since I almost always use my take script, but I don't think I'd have the same sense of mastery if I had trained from day 1 under a system where over-healing was impossible. Furthermore, my character shares Fizzickle's attitude toward what she sees as "incompetent" Empaths who over-heal. If over-healing were removed from the system, I would lose that aspect of my character.
Much of my willingness to accept over-healing prevention as a high-level feat springs from my eagerness to have a reason to keep training empathy. (I already heal at maximum speed, can do any shift, and know every spell, including Strange Arrow and Manifest Force.) If the Empath GMs continue to develop other uses for high-level empathy, my tepid support for the high-level feat of "self-preservation" will erode.
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
The removal of over-healing wouldn't affect my current experience very much, since I almost always use my take script, but I don't think I'd have the same sense of mastery if I had trained from day 1 under a system where over-healing was impossible. Furthermore, my character shares Fizzickle's attitude toward what she sees as "incompetent" Empaths who over-heal. If over-healing were removed from the system, I would lose that aspect of my character.
Much of my willingness to accept over-healing prevention as a high-level feat springs from my eagerness to have a reason to keep training empathy. (I already heal at maximum speed, can do any shift, and know every spell, including Strange Arrow and Manifest Force.) If the Empath GMs continue to develop other uses for high-level empathy, my tepid support for the high-level feat of "self-preservation" will erode.
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
ALEPH-ONE
Re: Overhealing in Healing 2.0
09/14/2011 02:36 AM CDT
LEEJ82, I may not have a perfect understanding of your confusion, but let me try to address it.
You said that you're confused about why people care about overhealing when a simple script addition fixes it. So, if I understand correctly, to you, keeping overhealing is really not much different from adding an extra step in combat (like you need to dose up on antidote before going up against a poisonous foe or something).
My response is that it's probably not as simple as you make it out to be. Almost everyone in the game is probably worse at scripting than you are -- the boards population probably vastly overrepresents older and more experienced players. If you imagine a brand new player, it can take years to master various levels of scripting -- and many prefer not to script at all. Learning to script it or learning to handle it manually, it's an accomplishment to learn how to handle overhealing. And people like accomplishments.
In short, having the risk there is exciting -- really exciting at the beginning. And as you get better, the excitement gets replaced with a feeling of pride at overcoming the risk.
-- Player of Eyuve
You said that you're confused about why people care about overhealing when a simple script addition fixes it. So, if I understand correctly, to you, keeping overhealing is really not much different from adding an extra step in combat (like you need to dose up on antidote before going up against a poisonous foe or something).
My response is that it's probably not as simple as you make it out to be. Almost everyone in the game is probably worse at scripting than you are -- the boards population probably vastly overrepresents older and more experienced players. If you imagine a brand new player, it can take years to master various levels of scripting -- and many prefer not to script at all. Learning to script it or learning to handle it manually, it's an accomplishment to learn how to handle overhealing. And people like accomplishments.
In short, having the risk there is exciting -- really exciting at the beginning. And as you get better, the excitement gets replaced with a feeling of pride at overcoming the risk.
-- Player of Eyuve
