Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 10:09 AM CDT
So something I have noticed looking at the Empath spell list is a distinct lack of skill buffs, but quite a few stat buffs (least it seems more than other guilds). Notably, we have no magic boosters outside of a +room mana spell and only 1 survival boost with AGS. Heck, only 1 lore boost with +empathy from GoL.

Just wondering what the empath design philosophy is in this regard. Is self-healing considered THAT powerful such that there are scant skill boosts, to go along with the combat restrictions? Or do the stat boosts do more than I think they do (spread out lots of smaller boosts via stat increases instead of direct 1 off skill boosts)?

This isn't a complaint at all, just curious. I notice that empaths essentially have a ton of free spell slots at the high end, seems like there might be more to fill in the blanks so to speak.
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 10:55 AM CDT


> I notice that empaths essentially have a ton of free spell slots at the high end

This is doubly true if you specialize your empath. Not all empaths are interested in combat. Some (masochistic) empaths may care solely about combat. Some empaths may want to go full shock, and they don't want a dozen spells they can't use.
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 11:47 AM CDT
There's been talk of changing Sprout to be either a +Outdoors +Alchemy buff or giving it a new ability and making a new buff for those two skills. I to would like to see more skill buffs for empaths or even more area buffs (though I know those are the domain of Bards and somewhat Paladins, but I think Empaths could fit into that roll as support also).

Feel free to post any spell ideas you got!
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 11:52 AM CDT
At a guess, I'd say that the idea might be that Empaths should be getting the majority of their skill boosts from the Link ability rather than spells. Unfortunately that ability is incredibly cumbersome to actually use in practice, and goes out of its way to prevent being used in combat. This has the practical result of leaving the skill boosting ability to be largely absent instead of being merely unconventional, which is a shame and I hope it can be corrected somehow.

I sort of doubt that the Link ability itself is in line to get much attention any time soon, so maybe one or more spells could be added to interact with it instead. I've mentioned a suggestion before about a spell to sort of "lock in" your Link so that you can take it with you away from the other person (and into combat if you want). Something like that seems like it would help the situation, or maybe someone can think of other Link-dependent spell effects that could make things a bit more user-friendly.

...Or maybe it's just as simple as "Empaths didn't have many skill boosts before, and nobody's gotten around to adding some" rather than some sort of design philosophy. They did mention stat boosts intentionally being a strength of the guild during the Magic 3.0 discussions though.

Thanks,
-Life Weaver Karthor
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 11:58 AM CDT
I am not aware of any reason for Empaths not to have skill boosters in general.

Now, you'd have to make a case for a particular skill (e.g., shield usage, forging). Not all skills make a ton of sense for Empaths to boost.

I may lean more towards stat boosts personally due to my experiences playing empaths, but now that it's been pointed out I'll at least be aware of it in the future...

Melete
Nature, it seems, is the popular name
for milliards and milliards and milliards
of particles playing their infinite game
of billiards and billiards and billiards.
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 12:11 PM CDT
As far as ideas go, I would start with things that are at least thematic to the guild:

+ Alchemy
+ Outdoorsmanship
+ First Aid (Although now that I look, I don't think anyone as an FA buff...)
+ Scholarship

Would like to see +Attunement and maybe +Arcana for the magic skillset.

Survival is a bit harder, maybe add in +Athletics somehow, dunno. I wouldn't mind seeing other things like +Stealth, +Locks, etc. but I have a hard time tying those into the guild theme and those would be same mana type Ranger spell scrolls if those are actually on scrolls...

I may get some evil stares from people, but changing +Brawling to +Tactics makes sense for Aggressive Stance. I certainly plan to be more of a combat Empath, but getting a weapon buff of any kind other than Parry is rather odd (though that may be a holdover before Tactics was a thing, no idea).

I ask about the design philosophy a little bit in the sense that Empaths are now able to work with the combat system FAR more than in the past, but remain the only guild with exclusive access to self-healing (Necros count sort of, but they require a corpse and even then, they need to be able to perform the rituals). I always figured an underlying aspect of DR was Empaths get self-healing at the cost of combat. That could just be my gross misunderstanding of things though.
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 12:37 PM CDT
>>There's been talk of changing Sprout to be either a +Outdoors +Alchemy buff

That's not at all my plan for Sprout! Of course, I haven't started on my version of sprout so meh? I think those are certainly fair skills for an empath to boost.

Then, as mentioned, you get stuff like "Empaths should have a FA booster!" and they should. And no one would get it. Because the skill isn't in a good place. This is actually part of why we removed SoI and Evasion (among a few others) costs an extra spell slot - we're not deluding ourselves that all skills are equal. At this point I'd almost make a FA boost a free rider on another spell, but that's a dangerous policy in case we do make the spell actually useful later. See Eillie's Cry for a similar problem.

-Raesh

"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 12:46 PM CDT

> Now, you'd have to make a case for a particular skill (e.g., shield usage, forging). Not all skills make a ton of sense for Empaths to boost.

Alchemy: Empaths have no crafting buffs for a lore prime, and all three of our bonus techs are in the alchemy branch. I think there's an argument for buffing this.

Buffs: Empaths have full body control. They should be enhancing the body through purifying the specific parts. I'd like to see this go beyond normal +skill buffs, but mechanics are mechanics. None of these would be signature.
- Purify the eyes: +Perception. Enhanced watch effect.
- Purify the nerves: +Attunement regeneration.
- Purify the blood: (later, if necessary) remove toxins caused by alchemy, chance for additional remedies pulse.
- Purify the hands: +outdoorsmanship, +skinning, Could really be +anything that requires fine-tuned motions
- Purify the lips: +scholarship, chance at bonus teaching pulses the recipient receives, increased chance to avoid fines, +charisma?
- Purify the feet: +athletics, reduced flee time.
- Purify the brain: +random chance at an extra experience pulse. Random skillset, but fine tuning meta to target specific skillsets.
- Purify the arms: +defending, +parry
- Purify the skin: +stealth, can perform actions that would normally be prevented by wounds.

I'd like to see these self-cast and castable on others, maybe an alignment for a general purification spell. You can align to a specific skillset, and the more skill you have lets you align to more of these features. Metaspells could also work, or individual spells along the vein mental focus and refresh. I like the former as this makes it a matter of choice. You get powerful, unique utility that's sought out by others. Limiting purification to one per target makes it a choice of gifting others at the cost of gifting yourself. Another option is that you could purify yourself, and let others touch you or your tree (the spell) to share the benefit.
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 01:02 PM CDT
> Buffs: Empaths have full body control. They should be enhancing the body through purifying the specific parts. I'd like to see this go beyond normal +skill buffs, but mechanics are mechanics. None of these would be signature.

See, what I keep fantasizing about is an extension of this. Empaths have full body control... And the ability to extend that full body control to others. I would LOVE to see an ability (or a spell, though it seems more like something that ought to be innate at high levels of empathy) to "share" an empath's stats with another party member. Or, at its most powerful, share stats between party members. So lend some of your strength to those hitting heavy, and they'll hit heavier. Shift a bit of stamina from everyone in the party into a single paladin who is guarding point, and he becomes godlike.

It would go a long way towards encouraging me to learn combat better, and would make an empath a highly desirable hunting companion, instead of a kind of nice but rather fragile sidekick.

~Aislynn
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 01:56 PM CDT


Empaths can in fact do that, via link.

I do wish empaths had some more fun stuff to do in combat. Iz is neat, but only an option for shocked empaths. I'd love to see more combat stuff, or interactions with the gs.

Frankly, in most cases a lot of the asked for buffs above are pretty useless. Buffs with no combat utility aren't particularly useful, and as raesh points out, something like an fa buff is going to be pointless. Id rather see more tools and options for empaths to fight, as otherwise you pretty much 'finish' an empath at about 30th circle.
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 02:07 PM CDT
> Empaths can in fact do that, via link.

I don't like link for 2 reasons.

1) It requires the other person to type the magic phrase without
2) It requires the other person to be willing to go with you to do whatever you need to do. Want to use link to boost you to the point where you can swim the Solgatha? Better find someone else who is able to and is willing to come.

> Frankly, in most cases a lot of the asked for buffs above are pretty useless. Buffs with no combat utility aren't particularly useful,

I disagree here. Crafting, gathering, traveling, learning, and teaching all have benefits. The problem with FA isn't that there is no application in combat. It's that there's no application at all after 200 ranks or so. No one needs a buff to cap out the skill, so no one would pay spell slots to learn it.

> Id rather see more tools and options for empaths to fight, as otherwise you pretty much 'finish' an empath at about 30th circle.

I'm not disagreeing with this though.
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 02:08 PM CDT


>>+ First Aid (Although now that I look, I don't think anyone as an FA buff...)

If only FA had a viable use beyond the 450-500 ranks it takes to tend the worst bleeders in combat with zero RT. I honestly think Empaths deserve a little love on First Aid learning, as well. The change to teaching stopping FA from being taught in combat made the hard FA req incredibly more difficult for combat oriented Empaths. What are the chances we could get a type of field autopsy skill akin to necromancer rituals? Maybe teach a little first aid and a little less skinning, and render the corpse un-skinnable (if you could skin it to begin with). Thematically, I think it fits better than an empath actually skinning something, and the sacrifice of money gained as well as reduced skinning exp could justify the First Aid gains.
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 03:21 PM CDT
I agree that First Aid isn't exactly worthy of having a spell boost at all, just pointing out that it obviously fits thematically (like many things), that there was a booster for. While I am no where near those ranks, it seems odd that after a point I would "babysit" a bleeder instead for the sole purpose of skill gain instead of waving my hand and heal it outright. Maybe makes sense for everyone else but...yeah.

I actually really like the idea of Empathy itself powering some different +skill boosts/unique abilities, not everything has to be a spell.
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 04:04 PM CDT


I think a scholarship buff would be immensely useless. And again, sorcery is a thing. Lets not hope for more of the same with empaths.
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 04:25 PM CDT

> I think a scholarship buff would be immensely useless. And again, sorcery is a thing. Lets not hope for more of the same with empaths.

Even if it was like a single target FAE? I think that would be immensely useful. Ideally, the empath could even cast it on their own teacher for a little bit more learning.
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 05:55 PM CDT
I would like to see some more combat buffs. My Empath (my highest circle character) does enjoy combat a lot. But instead of a skill booster, how about an accuracy booster akin to Rage? Empath being able to sense the reactions of their opponent and know when to strike next with better precision. I also would like, and would use, harvesting and crafting buffs. They would have a great niche with the large number of Empaths who are not combat orientated.

For AGS, I could go either way with replacing Brawling with Tactics. Brawling was the buff because that was the old Tactics skill pre 3.0. I would miss the Brawling, but would use the Tactics for sure. And I feel an accuracy buff would go a long way to replace it.

How do the GMs and others feel about Empaths being group/area buffers? If not area, I sure would like to see them be able to do group buffs. We already can do multiple diagnostic links to heal many at once. It's not a stretch at all to allow our Empathy to bridge our magic into group buffs.
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Re: Empath spells and skill boosters 08/22/2016 10:17 PM CDT


I would love for ags to drop the brawling buff in exchange for tactics. Personally, I think any empath group support should be had via links. I dislike the idea of empaths mimicking what I view as part of the bardic wheelhouse, putting aside of course the fact that spontaneous group hunting is still effectively as common as a unicorn.

I too enjoy hunting on my empath immensely, and love seeing steps to increase the combat efficacy.
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